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3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We haven't seen a broad enough sample of Zentradi fleets to know one way or the other.

Based on the very limited sample we have, it seems likely that having a records officer/archivist is a perk of rank for the commanders of branch fleets and larger formations.  Vrlitwhai had a records officer, but a division commander like Quamzin doesn't appear to have been extended the same privilege given that he was accompanied by the similarly gung-ho but not terribly bright Oigul instead.  Ogotai in Macross Frontier was the same type as Vrlitwhai and presumably a former branch fleet commander, and he also has a records officer.

 

Also worth noting Chlore had an archivist of sorts in her fleet in Macross 7 Encore. I forget her name off hand though.

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8 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

Also worth noting Chlore had an archivist of sorts in her fleet in Macross 7 Encore. I forget her name off hand though.

トランキル (Torankiru [Tranquil?])

Image here (scroll down to the Meltran section): http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics/Uniforms/MacrossUniforms.php#M7

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39 minutes ago, David Hingtgen said:

Is there an official scan/art anywhere, of the "winged MM" symbol that's on Mirage's -31AX and Max's -29?  Best images I can find of it are photos of the DX toys, but the hinge-lines etc make a mess of some areas.   

Variable fighter Master File..?

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1 hour ago, RaisingCane said:

Has the NUNS managed to capture any Zentradi fleet motherships or mobile fortresses intact?

Not that I know of.  However, it's possible that they captured the mothership that appeared in Digital Mission VF-X relatively intact.

I'm using relative in the sense of 'less destroyed' than other motherships simply because there were far, far less crew on the ship when they mounted the attack on Earth. That said, as the mothership had been buried on a planet for centuries, it wasn't exactly in the best state to begin with.

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21 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

Is there an official scan/art anywhere, of the "winged MM" symbol that's on Mirage's -31AX and Max's -29?  Best images I can find of it are photos of the DX toys, but the hinge-lines etc make a mess of some areas.   

The VF-31AX Master File has a so-so shot of it in the writeup of Max's YF-29.  It's only a couple inches across, but it is a clean printing of the image.

EDIT: It's on page 107.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
Providing a page number.
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41 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Has allied Zentradi mecha been upgraded in parity with the improvements made to NUNS mecha over the decades?  Given how successful the VF-1 was in Space War 1, wouldn't the latest VFs far outclass their old Zentradi counterparts now?

Seeing that Earth technology is quite different from existing Zentradi technology despite stemming from Protoculture, “upgrade in parity” is quite hard. NUNS has improved things were they can (powerplants, sensors, armaments, pilot survivability), but a completely new system would be needed to incorporate NUNS tech into Zentradi tech. This is seen in the Neo-Glaug and the Feios Valkyrie. Existing Zentradi tech has mostly seen their upgrades stapled on, per se. Zentradi tech is still capable to modern VFs with their current upgrades (see the Q-Rhea). 

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2 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

Has allied Zentradi mecha been upgraded in parity with the improvements made to NUNS mecha over the decades? 

Not as such, no.

When the ancient Protoculture designed the battle pods and battle suits that the Zentradi have been using for the last 500,000 years, little things like survivability or operator comfort weren't priorities.  They're uncomfortable to use, they have only the minimum amount of automation necessary, and their defensive capabilities are fundamentally poor because their pilots were considered at least as expendable as the mecha.  There's only so much that can be done to address that fundamentally callous design philosophy.

The New UN Forces did make limited use of newly built and captured Zentradi mecha after the First Space War and after a while started developing improvements.  That said, a lot of the improvements are focused not on improving performance but on improving things like survivability and ease/comfort of operation.  The first one we were introduced to seems to have also been the most extensive improvement: the Queadluun-Rhea/56 seen in Macross Frontier.  That's a reproduction Queadluun-Rau that's been improved by changing out the weapons, giving it an active stealth system, beefing up the armor, adding redundancy to the control system, improving the control system to accept NUNS munitions and even fold boosters, redesigning the cockpit interior to accept even male pilots, etc.  It's also the only one that is really kept pace with VFs because the performance of the original was just so high.  We were introduced to several more in Macross Delta via the NUNSM Al Shahal garrison force, though their Regult Type-104, Regult Type-106, and Super Glaug are noted to have only modest performance improvement over the originals.

 

2 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

Given how successful the VF-1 was in Space War 1, wouldn't the latest VFs far outclass their old Zentradi counterparts now?

In a word, "Yes".... with a "but".

During the First Space War, the VF-1 Valkyrie is said to have downed twelve enemy battle pods/suits for every one Valkyrie lost.  Later models improved upon that considerably.  Where the "but" comes in is that VFs may far outclass a Regult, a Glaug, or even a Queadluun-Rau one-on-one... but the Zentradi seldom go anywhere in ones and twos.  More commonly, it's that one battle pod/suit pilot and anywhere from several hundred to several thousand of his best mates.  Quantity has a quality all its own and the Zentradi are big believers in quantity.  That, far more than the individual performance of their mecha, makes them a force to be reckoned with.  This doesn't do a hell of a lot for the Zentradi in the New UN Forces, but many of them use Valkyries of one type or other rather than remodeled battle pods or battle suits.  (The novelization of Macross Frontier and Macross the Ride both suggest that the actual main mecha of the NUNS Marines are the manned Neo Glaug and Queadluun-Rhea/56.)

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I suppose that rolls into the NUNS SOP when it comes to fighting unidentified Zentraudi forces: Because of the sheer numbers of enemy units that can be brought to bare against an MUNS force, stealth/evasion or excessive use of reaction weapons is the only way to 'save the day'

 

The NUNS, although generally fears encounters with random Zentraudi forces, the bigger danger is, "What If a Zent force improves itself after capturing NUNS modernized Zent tech".

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19 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Is such a thing even possible?

Anything is possible. But i think this unlikely. Do Zentran and Metran even have scientists and engineers? They would probably have to "update " or reprogram a satellite factory. 
We see different Zentradi Battle suits in M+,  but those could have been hardware that already existed amongst the many, many Zentradi fleets. We just didn't see them until M+. 

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20 hours ago, TehPW said:

I suppose that rolls into the NUNS SOP when it comes to fighting unidentified Zentraudi forces: Because of the sheer numbers of enemy units that can be brought to bare against an NUNS force, stealth/evasion or excessive use of reaction weapons is the only way to 'save the day'

Yeah.  In Master File, even 5th Generation VFs like the VF-25 are mostly assessed in terms of their survivability when fighting outnumbered against the Zentradi.  The Barbarossa's VF-25s scoring several dozen kills each with no losses was considered a HUGE achievement and a ringing endorsement of the VF-25's abilities.

 

20 hours ago, TehPW said:

The NUNS, although generally fears encounters with random Zentraudi forces, the bigger danger is, "What If a Zent force improves itself after capturing NUNS modernized Zent tech".

That's more a concern regarding cultured Zentradi defecting.

The biggest concern seems to be preventing the Zentradi from acquiring any information about Humanity and its growing interstellar civilization.  So much so that, in Master File, the NUNS was ordered to destroy emigrant ships that could not escape from an approaching Zentradi fleet in order to prevent any information on humans from falling into that main fleet's hands.

 

27 minutes ago, Bolt said:

We see different Zentradi Battle suits in M+,  but those could have been hardware that already existed amongst the many, many Zentradi fleets. We just didn't see them until M+. 

Macross Chronicle leans towards the idea that the "Enemy Battle Suit" from Macross Plus is also 500,000+ years old... that it's possibly a design that was unique to a particular region in the Protoculture's vanished civilization.

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On 2/7/2023 at 5:15 PM, azrael said:

Seeing that Earth technology is quite different from existing Zentradi technology despite stemming from Protoculture, “upgrade in parity” is quite hard. NUNS has improved things were they can (powerplants, sensors, armaments, pilot survivability), but a completely new system would be needed to incorporate NUNS tech into Zentradi tech. This is seen in the Neo-Glaug and the Feios Valkyrie.

I believe the Stealth Regult, Stealth Glaug, and the other enemy units from VF-X was also redesigned and upgraded mechs from Zentradi dissidents like the those two, or do they have some backstory I'm not familiar with? I also wonder who designed them, they look very angular compared to most other designs from Kawamori and Miyatake.

stealthregult.png.6f7bcbb6c2334fb652c069519dbb098f.png

stealthglaug

stealthquelquallie

 

On 2/7/2023 at 7:17 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

We were introduced to several more in Macross Delta via the NUNSM Al Shahal garrison force, though their Regult Type-104, Regult Type-106, and Super Glaug are noted to have only modest performance improvement over the originals.

Better then nothing at least, heh. Though still funny to me that the Nousjadeul-Ger has kinda been left out in terms of given improvements; I remember someone speculating that the Regult Type 106 was basically a more "cost effective" version of a Queadluun-Rhea since the battlesuit is expensive as is and Regults are practically everywhere, and thus made the Ger type battlesuits obsolete. Least they live on as the shoulder cannon on the Rhea type.

On 2/7/2023 at 7:17 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

(The novelization of Macross Frontier and Macross the Ride both suggest that the actual main mecha of the NUNS Marines are the manned Neo Glaug and Queadluun-Rhea/56.)

It does bring the impression that most if not all of the UN/NUNS Marines are made up of giant Zentradi, or at the very least a frequent enough in modern material (i.e Frontier and Delta) to typecast them into the position. Also with supposedly high skill since those two have been compared to the best valkyries of the time (Neo Glaug to the VF-19/VF-22, and the Rhes/56 to the VF-25.) I don't think we gotten a good scale on how much the former in numbers was mass produced, as both the Variable Glaug and the Neo Glaug,

Does make me wonder if any other branch of the NUN military would use battlepods and/or battlesuits alongside Valkyries, probably in lower numbers but a interesting to wonder about.

Edited by TG Remix
Few things changed for clarification
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1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

I believe the Stealth Regult, Stealth Glaug, and the other enemy units from VF-X was also from Zentradi dissidents like the those two, or do they have some backstory I'm not familiar with? I also wonder who designed them, they look very angular compared to most other designs from Kawamori and Miyatake.

 

Better then nothing at least, heh. Though still funny to me that the Nousjadeul-Ger has kinda been left out in terms of given improvements; (...)

They were produced by the Zentradi that occupied the abandoned emigrant planet Elysium in the G-PN 88 star system*.  The abandoned factories were apparently repurposed by the Zentradi occupiers to produced the "stealth" versions.

The official names of the "Stealth" versions are: Gurāji Kai [Stealth Gurāji], Jināru Air-Battle Pod Kai [Stealth Air-battle Pod], Rigādo Kai [Stealth Rigādo], and Stealth Kerukaria [Quel-Quallie] Reconnaissance Pod.

 

On the game production side, part of the reason why the designs look so angular is the limits of game technology at the time.  Digital Mission VF-X was released in Feb. 1997, for the PS1.  That's arguably why the Nūjaderu-Gā was left out—too graphically complex, and the production staff were focusing their efforts on the Valkyries.

 

* http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Locations/OutsideBorders/Elysium.php

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25 minutes ago, sketchley said:

They were produced by the Zentradi that occupied the abandoned emigrant planet Elysium in the G-PN 88 star system*.  The abandoned factories were apparently repurposed by the Zentradi occupiers to produced the "stealth" versions.

The official names of the "Stealth" versions are: Gurāji Kai [Stealth Gurāji], Jināru Air-Battle Pod Kai [Stealth Air-battle Pod], Rigādo Kai [Stealth Rigādo], and Stealth Kerukaria [Quel-Quallie] Reconnaissance Pod.

 

On the game production side, part of the reason why the designs look so angular is the limits of game technology at the time.  Digital Mission VF-X was released in Feb. 1997, for the PS1.  That's arguably why the Nūjaderu-Gā was left out—too graphically complex, and the production staff were focusing their efforts on the Valkyries.

 

* http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Locations/OutsideBorders/Elysium.php

Interesting and mysterious. There's no apparent reason why Elysium was abandoned in the first place..

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30 minutes ago, sketchley said:

On the game production side, part of the reason why the designs look so angular is the limits of game technology at the time.  Digital Mission VF-X was released in Feb. 1997, for the PS1.  That's arguably why the Nūjaderu-Gā was left out—too graphically complex, and the production staff were focusing their efforts on the Valkyries.

 

That makes sense, probably explains why the Feios Valkyrie is so flat in it's Fighter form. I do wonder where does the pink/red coloring from the Mech Manual came from? In both VF-X games they're green with yellow and grey highlights which makes it a lot more traditionally "Zentradi" like, but the other one doesn't appear at all.

 

3 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Interesting and mysterious. There's no apparent reason why Elysium was abandoned in the first place..

Right? From official setting material It's described as florally and biologically the same as Earth, just slightly larger. It's not like those abandoned clone cities in Plus where you can connect the dots on why they were abandoned (mostly Earth being a less viable place to live in overall, and the whole Mass Cloning thing going wrong.)

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2 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

"Abandoned clone cities?"  What did I miss?

Maybe they are talking about the final city fight in M+ Eps 4?

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4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Better then nothing at least, heh. Though still funny to me that the Nousjadeul-Ger has kinda been left out in terms of given improvements; [...]

It did and it didn't... in a sense, it continues on as the Battroid mode of the VBP-1/VA-110 Variable Glaug.  

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

It does bring the impression that most if not all of the UN/NUNS Marines are made up of giant Zentradi, or at the very least a frequent enough in modern material (i.e Frontier and Delta) to typecast them into the position.

Other materials much more commonly depict the Spacy Marines as using predominantly Valkyries... if anything, the Zentradi marines in the anime seem to be the odd men out.

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Also with supposedly high skill since those two have been compared to the best valkyries of the time (Neo Glaug to the VF-19/VF-22, and the Rhes/56 to the VF-25.) I don't think we gotten a good scale on how much the former in numbers was mass produced, as both the Variable Glaug and the Neo Glaug,

No production obstacles are mentioned in terms of the (manned) Neo Glaug used by the Zentradi NUNS Marines in the Frontier novelization and Macross R.  

The Queadluun-Rhea/56 is probably subject to the same production obstacles as the Queadluun-Rau.  Namely, the Inertia Vector Control System is complex and difficult to make, greatly limiting the production volume.  IIRC, Master File alleges that the production rate is so poor that only a few dozen working units can be delivered every year.

 

4 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Does make me wonder if any other branch of the NUN military would use battlepods and/or battlesuits alongside Valkyries, probably in lower numbers but a interesting to wonder about.

We know the NUNS makes use of Zentradi ships, though incidences of use of Zentradi mecha have been relatively sparse for the reasons previously mentioned (WRT survivability, operator comfort).

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

That makes sense, probably explains why the Feios Valkyrie is so flat in it's Fighter form.

Partly... it's also modeled on real-world flying wing aircraft, which are very flat by nature.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

I do wonder where does the pink/red coloring from the Mech Manual came from? In both VF-X games they're green with yellow and grey highlights which makes it a lot more traditionally "Zentradi" like, but the other one doesn't appear at all.

I don't recall, honestly... the CG model used from the games is actually somewhat purplish in the artbooks.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

It's not like those abandoned clone cities in Plus where you can connect the dots on why they were abandoned (mostly Earth being a less viable place to live in overall, and the whole Mass Cloning thing going wrong.)

... there are no "abandoned clone cities" in Macross Plus.

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5 hours ago, Bolt said:

Interesting and mysterious. There's no apparent reason why Elysium was abandoned in the first place..

It is very enigmatic.  One suspects they abandoned it after discovering the buried Zentradi remains on the planet (not likely the buried Mobile Fortress itself).

However, there is a possibility that it was just too remote (or resupply routes were somehow being regularly disrupted) as Elysium is located in the Carina-Sagittarius Arm of the galaxy.  But that is also confusing, because in the last chapter of the game, the action space folds to Earth apparently in the same time it took Dyson to fold from Eden to Earth in Macross Plus... 🙄

Edited by sketchley
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7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It did and it didn't... in a sense, it continues on as the Battroid mode of the VBP-1/VA-110 Variable Glaug.  

Oh right, I can see it a lot from the beam cannon and head. As someone who really loves the design, I'm wondering why Kawamori decided to give one for the Neo Glaug's predecessor when he didn't before. Maybe to focus on the Gerwalk/Glaug more in that sense?

 

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We know the NUNS makes use of Zentradi ships, though incidences of use of Zentradi mecha have been relatively sparse for the reasons previously mentioned (WRT survivability, operator comfort).

For some reason this reminds me of the Regults with UN markings in the Master File. It looks nice on them, though I think in official material most NUNS allied Zentradi still don the old Zentradi symbol.

15249718719_1eb323d648_b.jpg

 

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... there are no "abandoned clone cities" in Macross Plus.

Strange...I read that the city Isamu and Guld fought in when they reached Earth was where cloned colonists lived in prior to be launched into space in emigration fleets. And once Mass Cloning ceased in 2030, the city became abandoned once there was no need for it. Could've sworn I read that somewhere-

<TVTropes.

...I feel like that explains it all in of itself. 😅 In my defense it was where I learned about the Mass Cloning within the franchise in the first place.

 

6 hours ago, sketchley said:

It is very enigmatic.  One suspects they abandoned it after discovering the buried Zentradi remains on the planet (not likely the buried Mobile Fortress itself).

iirc some colonized worlds like Ouroboros and the Brisingr Globular Cluster has Protoculture ruins just lying about, though I'd assume not all of them were as potent and potentially dangerous as those were, so in regular cases it does make me wonder if they'd be left alone and/or be the suspect of constant research from the UN if they're just standing there like Planet Rax's ruins and Altira.

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2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Oh right, I can see it a lot from the beam cannon and head. As someone who really loves the design, I'm wondering why Kawamori decided to give one for the Neo Glaug's predecessor when he didn't before. Maybe to focus on the Gerwalk/Glaug more in that sense?

Probably because the Neo Glaug was meant to be an unmanned fighter.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

For some reason this reminds me of the Regults with UN markings in the Master File. It looks nice on them, though I think in official material most NUNS allied Zentradi still don the old Zentradi symbol.

Most of the Master File books are written from the perspective of writers on Earth or Eden.  In Master File's take on history, the new emblem was not a product of the reorganization of the government and military after the Second Unification War.  It apparently predates both, but was not widely used because Earth and the older extrasolar settlements doggedly held onto the old roundel.

The novels take the perspective that the change came in with the Second Unification War.

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5 hours ago, Sildani said:

Any word on what happened to Moaramia Jenius?

Nope.  Presumably she had a distinguished career in the New UN Spacy Special Forces.

The only members of the Jenius family to have significant/noteworthy appearances outside the titles they debuted in are Max, Milia, Komilia*, and Mylene.

 

* Via Macross 2036, a canonical game in the Macross II parallel world timeline in which a 17 year old Komilia is the main character, and later a supporting character in its TRPG sequel Macross: Eternal Love Song.

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58 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nope.  Presumably she had a distinguished career in the New UN Spacy Special Forces.

The only members of the Jenius family to have significant/noteworthy appearances outside the titles they debuted in are Max, Milia, Komilia*, and Mylene.

 

* Via Macross 2036, a canonical game in the Macross II parallel world timeline in which a 17 year old Komilia is the main character, and later a supporting character in its TRPG sequel Macross: Eternal Love Song.

So I happened to be looking into stuff related to the Jenius family anyway and this actually depends on the ending to the game Macross M3. Apparently there is a 'good' and 'bad' ending based on player choices.
 

Quote

If the player chooses the good ending, after the military operation is over, Moaramia confesses her feelings to her parents, and chooses a life of culture other than combat. She then formally retires from the U.N. Spacy.

If the player gets the bad ending, after the operation is over, she is drunk with powerful emotions that rises from the inside of her own heart and does not ever stop fighting.

So assuming the good ending is one most would consider canonical (which of course means nothing because this is Macross), she mostly likely retired right after the game and just went on to live a normal life.

Edited by Master Dex
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Just now, RaisingCane said:

Did the UNG ever produce any more Oberths after the war?

Unclear.  It is noted that several Oberth-class ships did escape destruction due to having been deployed to defend bases like Apollo Base or the L5 Manufacturing Station.  That's the last we really hear of them officially. 

There is a ship in Macross Flash Back 2012 that looks similar to an Oberth-class shown as part of the Megaroad-01's fleet that may be a post-war improved type but no information on that exists.  It's possible that there was some limited production of the Oberth-class immediately after the war that was subsequently ended as new ship designs like the Algenicus-type stealth cruiser and Northampton-class stealth frigate were introduced.  

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I can't make out the text of the engine/legs
What is the rough circle with the small circle on the left represent? Is that the top view of the leg shape?
DO the bottom of the legs rotate like the v1 Yamato 1/60s and Takatoku 1/100 Vinyls?
Those LOOK like directional arrows on both legs. If this is leg rotation, was it abandoned in later designs?
I never see it used

image.png.d726c8f7aadf4ced4b94eb30664cc13f.png

 

image.png.5252788d4b64edc4d277565c21b36848.png

image.png.1387591204ce0f450d169ec8734a3c9c.png

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48 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

So assuming the good ending is one most would consider canonical (which of course means nothing because this is Macross), she mostly likely retired right after the game and just went on to live a normal life.

The Official Setting (canonical) for VF-X2 is the 'happy' ending version of the game (it too has 2 endings that the player chooses from).  I think it's fair to assume the same hold true for the Macross M3 game.

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4 minutes ago, Shawn said:

I can't make out the text of the engine/legs
What is the rough circle with the small circle on the left represent? Is that the top view of the leg shape?
DO the bottom of the legs rotate like the v1 Yamato 1/60s and Takatoku 1/100 Vinyls?
Those LOOK like directional arrows on both legs. If this is leg rotation, was it abandoned in later designs?
I never see it used

It IS hard to make out (as per my Japanese wife: Kawamori-san has messy handwriting!!!)  Nevertheless, it appears that your guesses are on the right track.

Engine/Leg text: "The parts above and below this line rotate".

The rough circle with the small circle is a top down view of the interior of the leg.  It says something along the lines of "(the leg) surfaces are not circular in shape".  The downward facing arrow indicates the "front", and it looks like the back surface is slightly wider than the front surface.

The text at the bottom of the image says something like: "Depiction of all the movement joints and angles on a setting image for the anime for making saleable goods.  It depicts movement axles that are not in the anime setting.  Notes such as "the second revision", "April 27" can be seen on the image."

 

Hope that provides some clarification.

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2 hours ago, Shawn said:

Depicts movement axles not in the anime setting...for goods like toys and models. Perfect!

Your wife is awesome! Please send my huge thanks!!!

Actually, she said it almost a decade ago. ;)

Just wanted to put it out there that it's not only us English speakers, but also native Japanese speakers who have trouble with his scrawl! :lol:

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Just throwing this question out there, though it's more of a "fanfic-y" type one. Considering the Queadluun-Rhea is a updated Rau with even more high performance and pilot survivability, could the Queadluun-Nona theoretically be given Rhea-like updates without repeating the same production and maintenance snarls?

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