Bandai DX Chogokin YF-29 Durandal Valkyrie

[jenius]

Not only did it not end abruptly, it saw several reissues and a few were very hot items. The Ozma with GBP goes for more than MSRP on the 'bay so it's becoming a collector's item. Now I'm not trying to say it's a great toy but I suspect ff95gj was referring to my comments that it sold well and that's clearly not a lie. The line did alright while the VF100 line flunked out before Luca was made. I know everyone likes to think Internet message board opinions are the best indicators of what people like but sometimes it's good to look at facts too. If something sells well it generally means that a few people like it.

[eugimon]

Not only did it not end abruptly, it saw several reissues and a few were very hot items. The Ozma with GBP goes for more than MSRP on the 'bay so it's becoming a collector's item. Now I'm not trying to say it's a great toy but I suspect ff95gj was referring to my comments that it sold well and that's clearly not a lie. The line did alright while the VF100 line flunked out before Luca was made. I know everyone likes to think Internet message board opinions are the best indicators of what people like but sometimes it's good to look at facts too. If something sells well it generally means that a few people like it.

That's nice to say but your argument is still just an internet message board opinion, unless you have some sort of tie to Bandai or several of the retailers and are privy to actual numbers and facts.

There's lots of reasons of why something might be sold out. For instance, it could be that the retailers only ordered a very small amount they were sure that they could sell. So if they only sold a dozen and the manufacturer isn't willing to do another run because it's not worth the factory time... then the fact that it sold out isn't a good indicator that the line was a success.

[jenius]

EDIT 2 - that sounded odd and braggy so I deleted it. If you choose to believe that it didn't sell well and was a colossal failure that's cool.

Edited February 28, 2011 by jenius

[eugimon]

EDIT 2 - that sounded odd and braggy so I deleted it. If you choose to believe that it didn't sell well and was a colossal failure that's cool.

I'm not sure where're you're getting that conclusion from. But whatever.

And if you do have some sort of relationship with Bandai, you should make that clear. It's not bragging, it's being transparent.

Edited February 28, 2011 by eugimon

[Vifam7]

I find it kind of funny that Bandai needed the fans to tell them that the VF-25 was crappy compared to the VF-27. But still it's good news. I can't believe it's taken them this many tries to come up with a good VF-25 given their prior experience, but if they come up with a decent looking new VF-25, I'd probably buy all of the versions this time, since I passed on most of the first version.

From my readings it's not like they had to be told from fans that the VF-25 was sub-par. Keep in mind, the staffers too are fans and they, like us, have similar desires and also read message boards (not necessarily this one). But it always helps to get and acknowledge fan input.

There have also been some notes about Bandai hiring a different contractor when the DX VF-27 was being designed. I forget the name. But one can tell that a completely different team was at work on the DX VF-27 compared to the DX VF-25.

[ff95gj]

Hi Jenius,

I actually forgot who said that already. I just remember the arguments. Maybe more than one person did. I hope I didn't jump on your nerve or something.

To all:

Just my interpretation on the Collector's Division interviewee:

- VF-25 to VF-27 is a "learning process": they didn't know how to make it right at first. They knew it better in making the VF-27. They admitted that the VF-25 was not adequate.

- Appatently there were enough people writing to Bandai, yearning for an improved DX VF-25. I don't think half a dozen of such letters would make an impact. It takes many more than that.

Other thoughts:

I am obviously a DX hater (on the VFs. The MQ and VB-6 are sweet). Still I got all 4 VF-25s and the 2 VF-27s. Got all optional armaments from Tamashii shops. Not that I think they are great toys, but they are the only choice on the market. Especially with a decent size.

- The Robot Spirit has stopped with only Alto and Michael and the Q-Rea's. I WANT THE VF-25S ARMORED!

- The VF100 is dead.

- I am looking forward to the Hi-Metal VF-25s. However, I am not sure if all four of the Skull Squad would get released, or the optional Super/Armored/Tornado packs.

- To collect a COMPLETE set of VF-25 with all optional parts, the DX is the only way to go.

- Heck, I even got the Michael in Tornado Pack.

- So much for good sales = good built.

[ff95gj]

From my readings it's not like they had to be told from fans that the VF-25 was sub-par. Keep in mind, the staffers too are fans and they, like us, have similar desires and also read message boards (not necessarily this one). But it always helps to get and acknowledge fan input.

There have also been some notes about Bandai hiring a different contractor when the DX VF-27 was being designed. I forget the name. But one can tell that a completely different team was at work on the DX VF-27 compared to the DX VF-25.

Some more thoughts:

- The more you look at it, you would get used to it. Probably the designers have put enough time on it to miss the irregularities.

- They were not familiar with the VF-25 from Day 1. They only get more familiar with their own work. (I didn't know how the VF-25S should pose like or certain parts should angle after I built my first VF-25 model. A year later when I looked at the photos again, I knew I had posed it all wrong.)

Combining both mentalities, it is possible that they really missed the essence from the start, and things continued to go not-quite-right.

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

I was this close to order the 27 when I realized I wasn't collecting Mac F stuff. It looked beautiful and well balanced unlike the 25's. Those were an instant pass for me. Too bad since I really dig the Ozma 25. If Bandai makes a V2, and it ends up looking anywhere as good as the anime, I'll have to get it.

[Chronocidal]

Indeed, which I guess is my point... regardless of sales, the DX VF-25 was just a lousy piece of engineering (coming from a pure engineering perspective, I can imagine it's the kind of design that professors go to for a "Don't do this" example in engineering and industrial design classes). People buy lousy products all the time, it's nothing new, especially since Bandai had all the licenses anyway and was the only source.

I'm just amazed that a company with as much money and mecha-related experience as Bandai managed to release something so utterly sub-par compared to the rest of the already established market. It happens yes, and I would assume this is why the VF-27 was designed by a new team entirely. But I remember the discussions about the design all through it's development process, and the thought that got continually voiced was "It's going to get better, right?" It never did, and I half think that the only reason it didn't was because everyone thought they weren't serious. It just amazes me how little they seemed to care about the design.

I guess now that the show is a hit, and the movies are huge properties for them, they can afford to dump some more effort into their designs.

If they do manage to release a new and improved DX VF-25, and it fixes all of the major problems with the original, I'll be happy to shovel out the cash for the whole set, because I really like the designs.

[regult]

But I remember the discussions about the design all through it's development process, and the thought that got continually voiced was "It's going to get better, right?" It never did, and I half think that the only reason it didn't was because everyone thought they weren't serious. It just amazes me how little they seemed to care about the design.

I also remember how some of us jumped in to defend the imaginary sturdiness of the flawed design.

Granted, at the time it was impossible to tell that thing would quickly become a floppy unposeable mess (but it was equally impossible to defend it's indestructibility!). Anyway, that's all water under the bridge anyway, and I don't know how many would not want to see a second version of the DX VF-25.

[Andy NYK]

it is out for preorder: http://www.amiami.jp/shop/shop?vgForm=ProductInfo&sku=TOY-RBT-1404&template=e_review.html&set=english

[eugimon]

Cool, fast packs aren't pictured but that pre-order discount is pretty big, takes some of the bite off.

[jenius]

I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that if you hate the VF-25 DX toy, and you have always thought it was never even "okay", and you think the VF-27 toy still isn't that good, you should steer very clear of this DX-29 toy. You're not going to like it.

Indeed, which I guess is my point... regardless of sales, the DX VF-25 was just a lousy piece of engineering (coming from a pure engineering perspective, I can imagine it's the kind of design that professors go to for a "Don't do this" example in engineering and industrial design classes). People buy lousy products all the time, it's nothing new, especially since Bandai had all the licenses anyway and was the only source.

Professors usually do that with stuff like bridges that collapse or something that breaks. The VF-25 toy allegedly can get loose over time... it's not quite the same arena. Even with some time my DX VF-25 Tornado toy is still holding up better than my YF-19 toy (and I think both are "okay").

People buy lousy products all the time, it's nothing new, especially since Bandai had all the licenses anyway and was the only source.

Yet the VF100 line failed and the Robot Spirits line doesn't seem to have done much better. I asked my retailer friend in Japan how the DX was doing after it was released. He said there was a lot of enthusiasm for it and it was selling very well and while there were some complaints that wasn't hurting momentum. It boiled down to the hardcore fans wanting more and hoping Bandai would make some tweaks on later releases while the general public was "charmed." There are a lot of excellent criticisms raised on MacrossWorld and various other toy forums but it's important to remember fans like me who are going to put a picture of the toy up next to the line art and criticize it (and the fans like me who love seeing when other people do that) aren't the majority of the fandom. In that same vein, after the toy was released and man-handled by the general public the feedback from all sources can be reviewed and it's a heck of a lot easier to devise alterations to an actual product than it is to a design (especially if one of your chief concerns is making a toy that won't break). It's also a lot easier to take someone else's work and tweak it... it's the same reason that, when you were in college, it was better to have someone else proof-read your work. If you wrote it you were a lot less likely to catch your own mistakes. As we've seen with other companies... later releases are often huge improvements on previous iterations also. The VF-27 is a MUCH better toy but the changes to it are hardly revolutionary from the DX toy.

[UN Spacy]

That price is MUCH lower than I expected.

Plus this is gonna sell like hot cakes.

[Murphy]

it is out for preorder: http://www.amiami.jp/shop/shop?vgForm=ProductInfo&sku=TOY-RBT-1404&template=e_review.html&set=english

Went to order got it in cart, then pressed proceed bamm sold out/out of stock..BOOOO!!! Should of checked earlier

[Andy NYK]

Went to order got it in cart, then pressed proceed bamm sold out/out of stock..BOOOO!!! Should of checked earlier

wth? preorders full? on such a short period? it sold faster than hot cakes, it's as if it was free. ok bandai/shoji, make a vf-29s ozma custom, and i'll do the same.

[UN Spacy]

AmiAmi does that frequently when new items are listed.

Don't worry it'll be active again in a few hours.

[killken]

Ahhhhhh CRAP!

[m0n5t3r]

that was fast... i'd like to see the back view of that battroid. so, the outer wing up to the thrusters just slides into the wing glove. those guns/lasers behind the head is something new. i think i'll "wait and see" on this one... i still feel lukewarm about the design, but if this is what the next VF/YF is, then i'm gonna have to get one eventually.

[Negotiator]

currently converts to $150.04 U.S. + if it's 40,00 yen for shipping. Comes to $198.84

....sigh this is getting so expensive

[killken]

pre-order is back up and i got mine woohoo

[Reïvaj]

As the VF-27 had the performance and stuff of a VF-25 + fast packs, it’s pretty obvious now the YF-29 is the sum of the VF-25 + Tornado stuff.

[killken]

Looks better then the tornado pack to me...

[Andy NYK]

As the VF-27 had the performance and stuff of a VF-25 + fast packs, it’s pretty obvious now the YF-29 is the sum of the VF-25 + Tornado stuff.

great minds think alike, lol.

i have the exact same thinking too.^^

[QuinJester]

Something of note is that the picture on amiami of the battroid mode isn't the exact same as the one in the magazine - the backpack area looks to fold up to produce a tornado-pack style turret; this is the area that was ????'d out in the magazine. I wonder if that's the extent of the new stuff? Even if it is, that's not too bad - it gives the backpack area more to do and might provide something for the people who feel that the gerwalk mode looks "too much like a plane with legs"

[Negotiator]

Something of note is that the picture on amiami of the battroid mode isn't the exact same as the one in the magazine - the backpack area looks to fold up to produce a tornado-pack style turret; this is the area that was ????'d out in the magazine. I wonder if that's the extent of the new stuff? Even if it is, that's not too bad - it gives the backpack area more to do and might provide something for the people who feel that the gerwalk mode looks "too much like a plane with legs"

oh i see now why those 'nacells' don't come down with the legs, because they're cannons.

[Andy NYK]

Something of note is that the picture on amiami of the battroid mode isn't the exact same as the one in the magazine - the backpack area looks to fold up to produce a tornado-pack style turret; this is the area that was ????'d out in the magazine. I wonder if that's the extent of the new stuff? Even if it is, that's not too bad - it gives the backpack area more to do and might provide something for the people who feel that the gerwalk mode looks "too much like a plane with legs"

i think the "turrets" will function as support for the wings during gerwalk mode to prevent what's been happening to the wings of the messiahs during gerwalk mode.

[Chronocidal]

Professors usually do that with stuff like bridges that collapse or something that breaks. The VF-25 toy allegedly can get loose over time... it's not quite the same arena. Even with some time my DX VF-25 Tornado toy is still holding up better than my YF-19 toy (and I think both are "okay").

I wasn't referring to the joints at all actually, just the lack of thought that went into the way the thing fits (or rather doesn't fit) together. The way the arms and legs fit is just bad in fighter mode (they forgot there is a cutout in the thigh for the shoulders to sit properly), and it throws the whole thing off. The whole thing fits and looks better if you just remove the arms. The fast/armored packs are another deal entirely, and actually put several joints under direct stress when they're attached properly. It's why the armored VF-25 tends to develop cracks in the backplate just from sitting on a stand; the pieces are under constant stress just sitting still.

You are right that people like to use big bridges and stuff for examples, but this thing is a great case study in how improper tolerances during design can make small complex mechanisms fail.

Anyway.. good to see it up for preorder, but it sounds like I'll be waiting a while for sales and discounts. Everything drops eventually if you're patient enough.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Chronocidal

[valid]

Even the magazine scan said that VF-25 and VF-29 shared common components, since they were both developed in parallel off the YF-24 test bed.

It's a thinly veiled plan to use the new VF-29 die for an improved VF-25 DX.

wow that yf 24 have a long landing gear! is it a dx toys? i hope it is.. cos that mean there is a chance for a second generation vf 25 release

[hutch]

The more I look at pictures of this the more I like it. It's so lanky. I really REALLY hope they go back and re-do the 25 with these changes. That would be beautiful.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

The more I look at pictures of this the more I like it. It's so lanky. I really REALLY hope they go back and re-do the 25 with these changes. That would be beautiful.

I think a redone VF-25 with improvements from the 27 and 29 is inevitable. This is just me thinking aloud, but I think it was already being worked on, but Big West/Kawamori came in telling Bandai that a new VF(YF-29) would be introduced in movie 2 and would play a substantial role. Which may have resulted in the redone VF-25 pushed back after movie 2 and the release of the YF-29. This gives Tamashii ample reason to release redone VF-25's of the core cast for Macross 30th next year, or start later this year.

I really want a VF-25F toy and if Tamashii truly does make a DX with the improvements carried over from the 29, I'll most likely buy it. I don't see why the Armor packs wouldn't be compatible but ideally I hope we'd get newer ones which reduce strain on the body.

[jenius]

If they redo the VF-25 for the 30th Anniversary (and I hope they do), I also hope they come up with all new fast packs. The current ones are floppy and limit mobility... not cool. It always amazes me how much companies have struggled with fast packs over the years... they really shouldn't be that hard and a couple well placed slots in a toy aren't going to destroy its appearance.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

If they redo the VF-25 for the 30th Anniversary (and I hope they do), I also hope they come up with all new fast packs. The current ones are floppy and limit mobility... not cool. It always amazes me how much companies have struggled with fast packs over the years... they really shouldn't be that hard and a couple well placed slots in a toy aren't going to destroy its appearance.

I agree, I think the only set that might be okay as is, is the Tornado Armor. Also I hope that if the 25 is redone, that each variant has an accurate/unique chestplate, that way the necessity for an extender joint for the 25S neck won't be necessary.

[Jasonc]

Went to order got it in cart, then pressed proceed bamm sold out/out of stock..BOOOO!!! Should of checked earlier

wth? preorders full? on such a short period? it sold faster than hot cakes, it's as if it was free. ok bandai/shoji, make a vf-29s ozma custom, and i'll do the same.

As noted above in a previous post, preorders back up. Just preordered mine. Looks much better than the DX 25s. I wasn't a fan of the 25s at all, but was able to enjoy and find much improvement on the 27. Hopefully this will follow suit, and we'll have an even better designed toy.

[Ignacio Ocamica]

wow that yf 24 have a long landing gear! is it a dx toys? i hope it is.. cos that mean there is a chance for a second generation vf 25 release

That YF-24/25 is a 1/72 model kit

A version 2 DX should have better landing gears.