When the UN became the NUN

[sketchley]

I've started spot translations of the Timeline pages of Macross Chronicle, and I've noticed a change in the use of 統合 (UN) to 新統合 (NUN) at an unexpected point. By expected, I mean post VF-X2, and pre-MF.

Following numbers are the Glossary sheet number:

#43 M7; 2046.01 "地球の統合軍本部の命令で、"

There are other pages that mention 統合 (UN), but that is the last entry in the M7 part of the timeline that a quick scan resulted in.

#46 D7; 2047

I haven't spotted 統合 (UN) on this page, which isn't surprising. Nevertheless, given that D7 occurs only a year after M7, I wouldn't hazard a guess that UN is still UN.

#47 VF-X/MF; 2048 "その一方、新統合政府は"

New UN government mentioned, a full 2 years before the events of VF-X2. The sentence is about the NUN government repressing the news of the Vajra attack on the 117th Survey Fleet.

[same sheet]; 2050 "だがその一方では、新統合政府の"

New UN government and New UN Forces (aka NUNS) appear, numerous times, in the 727th Special Duty Squadron Ravens section (the VF-X/VF-X2 section).

Given this, I'm inclined to believe that the switch from UN to New UN occured in 2048, and the process of deevolution of the central governments power to the colonies and emigrant fleets was underway during 2050. I'm in the midst of translating the 727th Raven's section, but it is clear that the central government had more control over the perifery in 2050, then it does in 2059.

Interesting.

Edited January 18, 2010 by sketchley

[sketchley]

Oops... forgot to give my interpretation of events:

The events of VF-X2 (and by extent, Digital Mission VF-X), are symptoms of what caused the change from UN to NUN, not the cause of it.

Looking at the events of M7, I'd be inclined to say that the UN Forces HQ ordering the M7 fleet to sacrifice itself to the Varoota may be the actual cause of the change from UN government to NUN government, with the ensuing 5 to 10 years being transitional.

Of course, looking at the history of the Super Long Range Emigration Fleets, one could suppose that a major change occured after the launch of the M7 fleet, and before the launch of the Frontier fleet.

Reason being - until shortly after the launch of the M7 fleet, SLRE fleets were launched at a rate of 1 or 2 per year. This has remained consistent from the launching of the Megaroad 01 until approximately the launching of the Macross 10 (or 12). The Frontier and Galaxy fleets (along with a host of others), were all launched, or reclassified from existing fleets, within a short timeframe after the launching of the M7 fleet. (I'm defining short as less than 5 year period with approximately a 10 to 20 year period's worth of SLRE fleets).

Of course, it should be noted that we don't know when the reclassification occured, if at all. We only know when the fleets were launched.

Ah... muse, muse, muse.

[RedWolf]

The events of VF-X2 (and by extent, Digital Mission VF-X), are symptoms of what caused the change from UN to NUN, not the cause of it.

This would explain why Col. Garland wanted a united front/command in case another invasion occurs.

Looking at the events of M7, I'd be inclined to say that the UN Forces HQ ordering the M7 fleet to sacrifice itself to the Varoota may be the actual cause of the change from UN government to NUN government, with the ensuing 5 to 10 years being transitional.

Also again ordering Macross 7 fleet to take on an entire female Zentradi armada.

Any sane commander would order them to get the hell out of Dodge but the bigwig UN military official ordered them to attack the Meltrandi fleet.

If we are to collate the collective blunders of the military it would include also the classified operation on the 4th Varauta resulting into the Protodevlin's release and the actions of two Colonels in Macross 7 side story mangas. (Trash, Mylene Beat)

The military became too much of an independent entity and had to be put back on a leash of civilian oversight.

[Master Dex]

The military became too much of an independent entity and had to be put back on a leash of civilian oversight.

That makes sense, it also explains why NUNs had a lot of red tape issues with getting things done in Frontier. That is why they started contracting SMS to do work. NUNs was clearly held back by civilian oversight with what it could do anymore, so SMS was able to fill in the role of quick military action for a cheaper price than the regular military as SMS was paid both by their contractor and Mr. Bilrer's company which started them.

[azrael]

The military became too much of an independent entity and had to be put back on a leash of civilian oversight.

I don't know if "became an independent entity" fits it right. If we look back on the Otona Anime interview, it doesn't seem like it was the military becoming stronger, but civilian bureaucracy becoming more influential, i.e., the civilian-side of things started to stick their hands into more cookie jars. It's more a game of politics than one unit trying to be more independent.

[Kronnang Dunn]

I've started spot translations of the Timeline pages of Macross Chronicle, and I've noticed a change in the use of 統合 (UN) to 新統合 (NUN) at an unexpected point. By expected, I mean post VF-X2, and pre-MF.

I thought the U.N. Spacy became the New U.N. Spacy since the end of Space War I...

[sketchley]

I thought the U.N. Spacy became the New U.N. Spacy since the end of Space War I...

Post SWI, that was new UN Spacy. Note the lower case, denoting it as an adjective, and not part of the name. It was also used only half the time during that period, and was completely dropped by the time later productions rolled around.

[hulagu]

I wonder if the NUNS logo is supposed to be symbolic of something. It looks to be an amalgam of the old UN spacy kite and the Zentradi emblem (and possibly the Zola diamond, though that's rather a stretch).

Edited January 20, 2010 by hulagu

[RedWolf]

That is interesting as we do not know when Zola formally joined Human-Zentradi hedgemony. Hopefully when the Zola World Guide comes it explains the first contact and subsequent integration to the UNG/NUNG.

[Zinjo]

I wonder if the NUNS logo is supposed to be symbolic of something. It looks to be an amalgam of the old UN spacy kite and the Zentradi emblem (and possibly the Zola diamond, though that's rather a stretch).

I'm not sure of the diamond shape, but the character inside it is the Greek letter "Nu". Not a very good drawing of it, but definitely a "Nu" character.

[Kronnang Dunn]

I'm not sure of the diamond shape, but the character inside it is the Greek letter "Nu". Not a very good drawing of it, but definitely a "Nu" character.

You mean this one?

[Master Dex]

I'm not sure of the diamond shape, but the character inside it is the Greek letter "Nu". Not a very good drawing of it, but definitely a "Nu" character.

Perhaps a bad pun on 'New' UN Spacey?

[Zinjo]

You mean this one?

Yep, it's a stylized Nu character.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm not sure of the diamond shape, but the character inside it is the Greek letter "Nu". Not a very good drawing of it, but definitely a "Nu" character.

Um... what? I hate to rain on your parade and all, but the symbol inside the NUNS diamond looks nothing like a Greek letter "nu". The uppercase Nu is Ν and the lowercase Nu is ν. It looks far more like a lopsided lowercase sigma (σ).

Edited January 25, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

It looks like a stylized "U", with the two arms crossing each other, like they are unified or helping each other.

Hmmm... isn't the correct term for it "New Unity Government (新統合政府)". Hmm...

[nexxstrait]

The NUNS logo is probably just a new twist on the old UN Spacy kite.

[RedWolf]

Macross Digital Mission VF-X query.

Did Earth get a visit or almost a visit from that Mobile Fortress?

Since Earth officials were so eager abandon colonies and fleets to their fates could the event be contributing factor for the change?

[sketchley]

Macross Digital Mission VF-X query.

Did Earth get a visit or almost a visit from that Mobile Fortress?

Since Earth officials were so eager abandon colonies and fleets to their fates could the event be contributing factor for the change?

From what I understand from the game (wasn't really paying too much attention to the story at that point...), yes, a Mobile Fortress (and Main Fleet?) came to Earth (or was en route).

The MC timeline isn't clear if it was, or was not a contributing factor. In fact, MC is more interested in the Milky Dolls part of that game :!:

[Renato]

I have to echo Kronnang Dunn's post a little.

I always found it confusing that some sources called the UN after the end of Space War One (i.e., after the integration of the Zentradi to Earth culture), the "New United Government". (新統合政府).

Sketchley, when you mention upper and lower case "n"'s, what sources are you referring to? And what are the "later" works that drop the name (because if you mean Zero, that was obviously before 2010)?

The narrator clearly states that the 新統合政府 New United Government was formed in 2010 in the opening narration of the first bunch of Macross 7 episodes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRwGssP-3Fo

[sketchley]

I have to echo Kronnang Dunn's post a little.

I always found it confusing that some sources called the UN after the end of Space War One (i.e., after the integration of the Zentradi to Earth culture), the "New United Government". (新統合政府).

Sketchley, when you mention upper and lower case "n"'s, what sources are you referring to? And what are the "later" works that drop the name (because if you mean Zero, that was obviously before 2010)?

The narrator clearly states that the 新統合政府 New United Government was formed in 2010 in the opening narration of the first bunch of Macross 7 episodes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRwGssP-3Fo

By later works, I was meaning those that come later in the in-universe timeline.

M7 and M+ are the two that come to mind. For example:

TiAS:M+ pg 06 "統合宇宙軍"

TiAS:M7 pg 03 "新統合政府" (line being used to indicate the creation of the government in 2010.03.) pg 28 "総合宇宙軍" (in reference to Gamlin. It's an interesting typo (not the first in the TiAS Macross related books from the mid '90's). Pg 40 "統合軍" (in reference to the Fz-109 being based off of the UN forces' VF-14). Pg 42 "統合宇宙軍" (in reference to the VF-11C).

Nevertheless, are their any points in either series where 新統合 is used?

[sketchley]

Quickly glanced through the VF-X and VF-X2 books. They both side step the issue by either refering to it as the Macross Government (マクロス政府), or the Space Forces (宇宙軍)!

And I forgot this: the other indicator for the big N little n, is the lack of an N when UN Spacy or UN (whatever) is written, on screen.

[RedWolf]

Quickly glanced through the VF-X and VF-X2 books. They both side step the issue by either refering to it as the Macross Government (マクロス政府), or the Space Forces (宇宙軍)!

And I forgot this: the other indicator for the big N little n, is the lack of an N when UN Spacy or UN (whatever) is written, on screen.

Well in VF-X-2 they refer to themselves as UN Spacy or United Forces.

[Kronnang Dunn]

The NUNS logo is probably just a new twist on the old UN Spacy kite.

It looks like a stylized "U", with the two arms crossing each other

It also looks like a slightly rotated and rounded image of the Zentradi symbol from the first series a lot...

Edited January 26, 2010 by Kronnang Dunn

[RedWolf]

It also looks like a slightly rotated and rounded image of the Zentradi symbol from the first series a lot...

Interesting... So the NUNS logo could be an amalgamated symbol representing the three military services of Humans, Zentradi and Zolan as one.

Edited January 26, 2010 by RedWolf

[Gubaba]

Quickly glanced through the VF-X and VF-X2 books. They both side step the issue by either refering to it as the Macross Government (マクロス政府), or the Space Forces (宇宙軍)!

And I forgot this: the other indicator for the big N little n, is the lack of an N when UN Spacy or UN (whatever) is written, on screen.

To throw a little something else into the mix...

From "Macross: A Future Chronicle," as the ominous movie-voice narrator intones, "April 2010: Establishment of New Unity Government." (or should that be "new Unity Government"?)

[sketchley]

To throw a little something else into the mix...

From "Macross: A Future Chronicle," as the ominous movie-voice narrator intones, "April 2010: Establishment of New Unity Government." (or should that be "new Unity Government"?)

This brings up a good point - all references of the government in 2010 April, are new. However, before and after (not including MF), there's no new.

[frankmu]

In the original series, episode 30, "Viva Maria", the preview for "Satan's Dolls" mentions the New UN Forces. i know, it's not New United Nations Spacy, but it's close. the Japanese is the same.

[sketchley]

Episode 30 takes place in 2011, October. Just over a year after the establishment of the new UN Spacy in 2010, April.

Also, in researching the answer, I noticed that the Macross Compendium has an uncapitalized "new": http://macross.anime.net/wiki/2010

[s001]

Yeah, but we got 'U. N. Spacy' in Plus and 7.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah, but we got 'U. N. Spacy' in Plus and 7.

No kidding... that, plus Kawamori changing the reason we got the "New U.N.", really makes figuring the whole thing out a fair bit messier. Given the available information, my take on the situation is that the little-n "new U.N. Government" likely was established as a continuation of the system of government they'd had before the war, and thus was only "new" in the sense that it was re-founded with new representatives after the war. After a while, the distinction would simply no longer seem important, and was probably dropped altogether, leaving the government as the U.N. Gov't, and the military as the U.N. Forces. According to Kawamori, the big-n "New U.N. Government" came along when the government was forced to reorganize after the constituency of the old government became too spread out for the little-n "new U.N. Government" to govern effectively. From the description, the big-n "New U.N. Government" is a new governmental system established to cope with the realities of galactic colonization on a large scale. The U.N. Spacy presumably became the New U.N. Spacy during this reorganization to bring it under closer civilian oversight, perhaps because of the events of Macross VF-X2.

In a nutshell, the important distinction between "new" and "New" seems to be whether the actual system of government changed significantly enough to consider it a whole new government. The "New U.N. Spacy" seems to have only cropped up after the governmental changes passed the point where it really couldn't be called the same system anymore.

I could, of course, be completely wrong in my assessment, but it seems to support the available facts and what Kawamori is saying in the Otona Anime interview.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

I could, of course, be completely wrong in my assessment, but it seems to support the available facts and what Kawamori is saying in the Otona Anime interview.

Looks accurate, except for the following:

The U.N. Spacy presumably became the New U.N. Spacy during this reorganization to bring it under closer civilian oversight, perhaps because of the events of Macross VF-X2.

Which has already been addressed earlier (VF-X2 is a symptom, not the cause of the change).

[RedWolf]

So the troubles of the '40's led to the New UN?

1. Sharon Apple Incident

2. Loss of Varauta Research Fleet and Colony.

3. Macross 7-Protodevlin War

- Loss of Macross 5

- UN Forces contraversial orders

*Attack the Protodevlin with no reinforcements.

*Destroy the Chlore Meltran Fleet.

[Seto Kaiba]

So the troubles of the '40's led to the New UN?

It seems likely that those troubles were factors, but the primary cause cited by Kawamori was that humanity was simply becoming too spread out for the old system of government to govern them effectively.

What was the Supervision army Job in the Protoculture republic and how did they differ from the Zentrady?

I know SDF 1 Macross was originally one of their ships and that is how the Zentrady found the Earth while searching for the supervision ship.

Not really relevant to this thread, you might want to try the Newbie Thread for this one.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Zinjo]

Um... what? I hate to rain on your parade and all, but the symbol inside the NUNS diamond looks nothing like a Greek letter "nu". The uppercase Nu is Ν and the lowercase Nu is ν. It looks far more like a lopsided lowercase sigma (σ).

I hate to rain on YOUR parade oh condescending one, but I took Greek in College (dont' ask, long story).

Although, upon further study of the actual insignia, I am thinking it isn't supposed to represent a letter at all. It very well could be representing the galaxy spiral of sorts or quite simply an interesting design that Kawamori liked. There has never been an explanation of the kite (arrow) on the UNS insignia, but we accept it nonetheless...

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar....

Although, I like the amalgam idea of the insignias. The interesting question would be what happens if they absorb another culture into the fold?

My take on the NUNG is that it transformed into more of a federation of member colony worlds and fleets rather than the governing authority it once was. Information is freely shared among the members as well as joint self defense.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Zinjo

[azrael]

It seems likely that those troubles were factors, but the primary cause cited by Kawamori was that humanity was simply becoming too spread out for the old system of government to govern them effectively.

I would probably consider those the highlights of the symptoms. There were more conflicts that probably contributed to the overall problem and the eventual decentralization.