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HG and Robotech Debates


azrael
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I go away for a while and what do I find upon returning? Seto has turned into what appears to be a sour orange :o

the things this thread does to people...

Pete

Really? He looks more like Jigglypuff dressed up like Judge Dredd to me...

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Okay... you've got me there... but let's remember that the majority of fans aren't that goddamn stupid, and just end up getting caught in the clusterfart of insane theories bouncing around Robotech.com. This isn't a project for the die-hard nutjobs, it's something for the everyman.

Miguel DeCervantes wrote a story about something like this...

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Really? He looks more like Jigglypuff dressed up like Judge Dredd to me...

Just for saying that, or probably something very similar, the Gods have designated you a Nuker of gay unborn space whales.

But I guess it's a fate that awaits all of us ... :o

....

As for Seto's Robotech project- I hereby announce that I SUPPORT it.

Why?

Because it's time to take our childhoods back from the DOOFUS BRIGADE!!

I loved playing the Paladium Role Playing Games as a kid, and I appreciate that Robotech introduced me to the world of anime - even if I didn't really know it back then. And I have fond memories of my childhood and it's a disgrace that people like Bendover are the primary sort associated with that part of our childhoods that is Robotech.

So I say - good for you Seto and I'll support you - in fact - if your website will have a forum or something - I'd be really REALLY interested in playing the Robotech roll playing game with anybody else who wants to. I don't have any of the books anymore, but maybe it's possible to get scans. I just have some really fond memories of the whole thing.

I'm sick and tired of pointing out the obvious - that Bendover and most of the Robotech.com denzins are dumb and that Harmony Gold made a crapy production in the Shadow Chronicles and have been lying and spinning all along.

But there's no point in just continuing on about that.

Yes - Macross is better - as a story, as an anime, as merchandise, as music - as everything. But nostalgia isn't about what is better TODAY. Nostalgia is about celebrating what was good back when we were little kids. And back then, for me, Robotech was part of something special. Not as big as Transformers, but it was there for me. Like Ghostbusters - I loved the Ghosbusters gear and would love to buy it and then go hunting for ghosts with my friends and try to catch them. Like NES which I loved playing and prefer to modern video games.

It's about celebrating our childhood and if Seto can make a website that does justice to that nostalgic aspect -then cool.

In fact- I would think that it's a far better way to use his knowledge than in arguing with peons on Robotech.com or some place else.

So - I'm for it Seto. Make it happen. I'll happily sign up!

Pete

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And now, another post in Mike's ongoing series of "Too Long; Didn't Read". Part ? of π*10^8.

I go away for a while and what do I find upon returning? Seto has turned into what appears to be a sour orange :o

Refresh your browser... my old avatar was an orange done up to look like Jeremiah Gottwald from Code Geass. My new one is Kirby after eating Judge Dredd. ^_^ For a while, I used the "Ordo Hereticus - Heresy Begets Termination" stamp as a joke on the attitude that certain Robotech.com and RobotechX.com moderators have taken towards anything resembling a personal opinion. (The seal's still set as my personal photo if you want to see/use the recolored version)

Seto is this what became of the Culture Park project?

No, that's just something I did with Mr March to get some of the information I've been collecting out there for the fans to enjoy while IRL issues springing from the local effects of the economic recession have been running me ragged. I'm still working on it, (in fact, I'm almost done with my translation queue, just three magazine articles to go), and what's in the articles on M3 is only a fraction of what I've uncovered. Long story short, we're moving to a new domain because of the dick move our current webhost pulled with regard to their promise to keep their systems up to date (the current server load is so out-of-date that it can barely run basic CMS software). As part of the move, we're also expanding our focus to cover the main continuity as well, as a complementary resource for the Macross Mecha Manual, which will also be making the move with us.

Basically, we're tryin' to make ourselves into a sort of "one-stop-shop" for Macross information... with the exception of the Macross II stuff, the focus of my coverage will be the characters, story, setting, music, etc., while Mr March's Macross Mecha Manual covers the mecha exhaustively. The expanded project is semi-jokingly called the "Macross Galaxy Guide", and will be (is) on a different, much more potent server. I just have to get through the next week or so, then we can start getting things set up.

I would have thought that the less robotech material there is on the net, the better. A really well done information resource might just add fuel to the fire, encourage robotech discussion and convince the die-hards that their franchise is worth sticking with.

Seems to me like it would be feeding something I'd rather starved to death.

Eh... I disagree. Here's why:

You're assuming that the Robotech die-hards are rational people. If they were rational people, then they wouldn't be die-hard Robotech fans, would they? If they were, they would've abandoned the Robotech franchise as an outfit that'd hit rock bottom with no prospect for recovery either in 1987 when word got around that the Robotech: the Untold Story movie and Robotech II: the Sentinels TV series got the axe, or in 2000 when Robotech 3000 sank without a trace and saw the removal of the terminally inept Carl Macek from the creative directorship. They would not have stuck with the franchise for 25 years when it consistently failed to produce anything that didn't suck. You see, the Robotech die-hards are strange, alien creatures with completely foreign concepts of "fun" and "entertainment" and a tenuous grip on reality that lead them to think things like Shadow Chronicles are actually good cinema, and that Robotech is the internationally renowned blockbuster Harmony Gold says it is.

If starving them for content was enough to drive them away from the Robotech franchise, our problem with them would've solved itself at least a decade ago.

As for Seto's Robotech project- I hereby announce that I SUPPORT it.

Bricks were shat. :blink:

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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What I would really like is a re-release of all the Novels - preferably in either the form of an e-book (fat chance) or a large "collected series."

Given that Harmony Gold hasn't produced anything worthwhile Robotech-wise since the 80s - they could at least re-issue the stuff was was worthwhile back then.

Pete

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Okay, now THAT is a good question... one with a long answer, but a good question nonetheless. This might venture into tl;dr territory, so please bear with me since the explanation's somewhat complicated.

As you've said, it's certainly no secret that I don't have a whole lot of use for Robotech these days. It's not that I hate the show... it's that I hate what the show has become, what it stands for, and the sort of asinine behavior it brings out in its fans. To me, Robotech is a relic of a bygone era in the American anime industry. It's an interesting little historical curiosity that we can all gawk at and wonder what the hell the people responsible for it were thinking. Putting aside its alleged and highly debatable influence on the formation of the anime industry, the show itself itself aged about as well as unrefrigerated milk, and as a result has a weird retro camp aspect that at least lends it a little entertainment value. As I see it, the Robotech story had potential once, but that potential was wasted by the terminally inept, generally unimaginative, and incredibly dishonest people in charge of the show. The general antipathy I display for the Robotech franchise is largely the result of what the show has come to stand for... ignorance, deceit, and abuse of the source material. I find it particularly appalling that, rather than be honest about the show's origins, both Carl Macek and Tommy Yune opted to treat it as a "dirty little secret" and made an effort to convince the fans that the shows which make up Robotech are inferior and have no value outside of their adapted versions.

In short, I don't hate Robotech so much as I hate what Robotech and its fanbase have become and what they now stand for.

Now, as to why I'm planning this particular endeavor... (in no particular order)

Honestly, I suppose the main reason is that one of the chief reasons Robotech fans annoy the crap out of people isn't that they're apefaces (most aren't), but rather that they're just plain ignorant. One of the things you'll notice just in looking at Robotech.com and RobotechX.com is that many Robotech fans are pretty clueless about Robotech itself. This ignorance leads them to say and do stupid stuff that gets on people's nerves, and thus perpetuates the lousy reputation of the online Robotech fanbase. Remedy the ignorance, and you not only sweep the rug out from under the feet of people like Maverick, MEMO, and dougbendover, you also give them fodder for intelligent discussion (which you'll no doubt agree has been sorely lacking for a good while now) and the means to stop acting like idiots. It also can do rather a lot for the non-fan who is curious about this "Rowboattech" thing they've heard about but can't find much of any information on.

Another reason I'm doing it is that, like as not, Robotech is a part of Macross's history. It might be a part we aren't particularly proud of (or one that we'd like to bury forever like evidence of some dreadful crime), but it's still had an affect on Macross and the way Macross is perceived by western fans.

Some of it is, yes, that I made a promise to a few decent Robotech fans of my acquaintance that I would try to put together a community site for them free of the bullshit, politics, and witch-hunting that are all Robotech.com and RobotechX.com are really about these days.

And yes, some of it is nostalgia. Robotech was one of the first anime titles I was exposed to, so I do have some fond memories of it.

Thanks for your long, but detailed answer. I guess everyone has a reason or two to stick with things they grew up with. For me, and the only reason why I still stick around it, is mostly due to friends. It's the good fans/friends that keep me still interested in what Robotech ONCE WAS. It's very unfortunate that the few vocal morons and staff feel they need to destroy what was good of the series. When I decided to "leave the fandom" (more like chose to say some things to ban myself), the franchise was already on a path I didn't care to follow. Having friends that were involved then and now like Michael Bradley, Tom Bateman, Richard Epcar, JT, and so on, those are the people that if I "get involved", attend events, and the sort, they're the reason why I bother. The good people.

What I would really like is a re-release of all the Novels - preferably in either the form of an e-book (fat chance) or a large "collected series."

Given that Harmony Gold hasn't produced anything worthwhile Robotech-wise since the 80s - they could at least re-issue the stuff was was worthwhile back then.

Pete

I found this an interesting idea. The books weren't as bad as some remember, nor were they as great as some remember. The problem is, if they did this, what would be the response HG would use for the decanonization of all the Sentinels material and all that? Perhaps they should revisit those books. At least those interested in seeing what possibly happened between the last ep of Macross Saga and Symphony of light (not the Edwards Freak Monster show garbage that made it to the comic).

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What I would really like is a re-release of all the Novels - preferably in either the form of an e-book (fat chance) or a large "collected series."

Haven't they already been re-released? Last I checked, the re-released and obnoxiously retitled "Macross Saga" First Generation books were still available on shelves in two omnibuses. Southern Cross and New Generation/"Invid Invasion" have one book each. And I think that the three original sidestories for each of the generations also had one anthology book, though I can't seem to find it.

http://productsearch.barnesandnoble.com/se...Jack%20McKinney

Dunno about Sentinels, though, but then, no one gives a fart about the Sentinels, not even HG these days.

I'm surprised they haven't tried to novelize Shadow Chronicles, though, or try to rejuvenate their franchise through storytelling in cheaper media to overcome budget constraints.

Edited by hulagu
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I'm surprised they haven't tried to novelize Shadow Chronicles...

They actually tried to back in the day, but lets just say, there wasn't enough story... You'll have to ask Brian McAfee for the whole story about what happened there. Don't know all the details. ^_^

Edited by chrisk
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They actually tried to back in the day, but lets just say, there wasn't enough story... You'll have to ask Brian McAfee for the whole story about what happened there. Don't know all the details. ^_^

There is a literary genre known as The Short Story. ^_^

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I found this an interesting idea. The books weren't as bad as some remember, nor were they as great as some remember. The problem is, if they did this, what would be the response HG would use for the decanonization of all the Sentinels material and all that? Perhaps they should revisit those books. At least those interested in seeing what possibly happened between the last ep of Macross Saga and Symphony of light (not the Edwards Freak Monster show garbage that made it to the comic).

Well, thats the real trick, isn't it. The books were at their best when they stayed as close to the series as they could, but as soon as they went off on the weird tangents of material that wasn't in the show. (Southern Cross was especially bad for this)

Thinking Caps bugged the crap out of me too......

Taksraven

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I definitely agree with that sentiment.... for instance - Zendradi Rebellion, which took place on the heels of the Macross Saga, was actually pretty good. I felt like it was a plausible direct continuation - aside from the wierd part about the SDF-2 and yes - the thinking caps were lame...But the general theme of a group of Meltrans rebelling in the Amazon jungles and the rising political tensions between North & South etc etc were spot on and interesting.

The other two novels I have are less interesting, sadly. Masters Gambit is just a boring story. The computer hackers and their techno-polis world just want to make me snore.... I can't say anything about the plot really since I wasn't able to read the book through cover to cover - instead I randomly fell asleep, flipped through the pages in hopes of finding something interesting, and then gave up.

Planet Killers on the other hand.... I read that cover-to-cover - but mainly for the perverse pleasure it gave me to laugh at the melodramatic poo-fest that this story was. The horrible dialogue, the pathos.... for everything that seemed interesting about the Sentinals based on Robotech Art III ... if this was meant to be the grand conclusion of the Sentinels.... jeezus....it's like a cosmic farce....

Ok - maybe re-issuing the novels isn't such a swell idea after all :)

Pete

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Since this board is more active than the official Robotech forum, I have a question.

What exactly is protoculture in the robotech universe? I'm watching Robotech for the first time and just started the new generation and it seems like even the writers didn't know what they were talking about.

Its culture, fuel, flowers, food, technology and sometimes it even seems like they are reffering to software as protoculture. What exactly is it?

Its like they use it as some sort of all purpose element to describe things that don't really belong within the individual series that were combined.

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Since this board is more active than the official Robotech forum, I have a question.

What exactly is protoculture in the robotech universe? I'm watching Robotech for the first time and just started the new generation and it seems like even the writers didn't know what they were talking about.

Its culture, fuel, flowers, food, technology and sometimes it even seems like they are reffering to software as protoculture. What exactly is it?

This question has been ask and thought about.

So far we've come to the conclusion it represents Fuel, food,technology and sex.

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This question has been ask and thought about.

So far we've come to the conclusion it represents Fuel, food,technology and sex.

lol, HG should sell robotech T-shirts that say "Protoculture is sex"

I'd buy it ^_^

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Since this board is more active than the official Robotech forum, I have a question.

What exactly is protoculture in the robotech universe? I'm watching Robotech for the first time and just started the new generation and it seems like even the writers didn't know what they were talking about.

Its culture, fuel, flowers, food, technology and sometimes it even seems like they are reffering to software as protoculture. What exactly is it?

Its like they use it as some sort of all purpose element to describe things that don't really belong within the individual series that were combined.

Protoculture is everything, and it is nothing

The beginning and the end

love and hate

life and death

sweet and savory

2% and soy

It is whatever the writers are thinking at the time

And Thus spoke the prophet Thomas Yune

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I believe the in-universe explanation of Protoculture goes like this:

1) The Masters create "Protoculture", a bio-fuel that when used in concert with other sciences makes just about anything possible.

2) The Masters tell their ignorant slaves the Zentraedi go fetch them Zor's ship and all the Protoculture therein but be careful, Protoculture makes whoever has it very powerful.

3) The Zentraedi don't really know what Protoculture is, just that it's dangerous and they need to get it back. Anything beyond the realm of their understanding could thus be Protoculture.

4) The Masters seek the Protoculture on Zor's ship but find it's too late. The ship has been blown apart and the biological aspects of the fuel source are just thriving plants. There's some problems here... as in when did humans learn how to use protoculture, where did they get their supply (all off the SDF1?) and if they were aware of it as this omnipotent power source how come they didn't figure out a way of isolating it from the SDF-1 wreckage. Also, if they looted the SDF1 of this power source, then they knew it was there, wouldn't they immediately suspect when the Masters showed up that that was what they were after?

5) Since the humans had apparently looted the SDF1 of protoculture batteries, that's what all the new gen and REF mecha work off. Meanwhile, the Invid take the flowers that form protoculture's biological aspect and are able to reap the bio-fuel directly from them thus making them incredibly powerful (don't make me go Phoenix on you).

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Protoculture is that unknown force in the galaxy. As Yoda says, "For my ally is the Protoculture, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Protoculture around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship."

Thanks Yoda, for giving the writers of Robotech something to use. Of course, the sex thing isn't bad either. There aren't too many things that are a noun and verb all rolled up into one. REJOICE!!! and go protoculture your mate, make protoculture and then go smell it for a protoculture high. Also, don't forget to fuel your ship. Now, that's Decultcha!!!

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Hey, that's a touching heartfelt tribute, and nothing else! :)

That amused me Keith... B))

I really don't think HG and Macek really liked each other as much as their marketing team want everyone to believe.

All props to what Macek did after RT, but when you listen to him talk about his experience working on the show, you realize this guy was a marketing hack who slapped the show together in 5 months based on watching the episodes "MUTED"!

RT was not Macek's finest hour in the entertainment industry and ironically it will be the one thing he'll always be remembered for, good or bad... :rolleyes:

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RT was not Macek's finest hour in the entertainment industry and ironically it will be the one thing he'll always be remembered for, good or bad... :rolleyes:

Are you sure about that? It did make him an icon for an entire industry, and maybe one of the only people cited as a creator rather than, or in addition to, a director, voice actor or other staff normally involved in just an English version of any foreign show.

And remember, at first he genuinely wanted to bring Macross to the states. It's just that somewhere down the line he decided to make a lot of unfortunate compromises and never looked back.

Edited by Einherjar
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Are you sure about that? It did make him an icon for an entire industry, and maybe one of the only people cited as a creator rather than, or in addition to, a director, voice actor or other staff normally involved in just an English version of any foreign show.

And remember, at first he genuinely wanted to bring Macross to the states. It's just that somewhere down the line he decided to make a lot of unfortunate compromises and never looked back.

lol creator :lol:

So if i take some random collection of manga white out the speech bubbles, add, own dialogue to connect them and give it some half-assed named, i can credit myself as a comic book creator? coolo

Unfortunately for him, Mr. Macek's legacy is how a person can become an icon by stealing other people's work and taking all the credit.

And as far as the whole "How should Macross fans view Robotech?" I view RT as the thing that did turn a lot of people to Macross, however even if RT never existed, Macross still would've been popular. Considering that RT doesn't exist in Japan and the Macross franchise has been doing fine ever since it has been isolated in Japan post-Mac+, I think western anime fans would've eventually caught on to Macross. I never saw nor heard of RT before i got into Macross. I found Macross via the internet with a torrent of DYRL. So, i don't think it is a bad attitude to pretend RT doesn't exist, because (for Macross, anyway) it just plain doesn't matter, completely inconsequential.

Edited by RDClip
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So if i take some random collection of manga white out the speech bubbles, add, own dialogue to connect them and give it some half-assed named, i can credit myself as a comic book creator? cool

11bkbd5.jpg

Pete

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Thanks for your long, but detailed answer. I guess everyone has a reason or two to stick with things they grew up with. For me, and the only reason why I still stick around it, is mostly due to friends.

That's a pretty fair summation of my reasons for continuing to keep an eye and an ear on the Robotech franchise... without having several friends who're active in the fandom, I probably would've said "to hell with it" and given up on it ages ago.

I'm surprised they haven't tried to novelize Shadow Chronicles, though, or try to rejuvenate their franchise through storytelling in cheaper media to overcome budget constraints.

I'd be surprised if they tried... the novels are one of the most divisive titles in Robotech, and one of the two writers from the original run is dead now...

What exactly is protoculture in the robotech universe? I'm watching Robotech for the first time and just started the new generation and it seems like even the writers didn't know what they were talking about.

In Robotech... protoculture is like duct tape... you don't question it, and it holds the universe together. Basically it's whatever the writers decide it needs to be for that particular episode. General purpose plot spackle. In application, it can be anywhere from "magic" to "Minovsky particles", depending on how seriously you take the original explanation of how they generate power using it.

Proto: first, earliest, or original

+

Culture: Wasted on Americans (defintion taken from Urban Dictionary.)

=

Protoculture: the first of many things that was wasted on American viewers from being edited into Robotech. :p

If anything, that answer works a little TOO well...

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lol creator :lol:

So if i take some random collection of manga white out the speech bubbles, add, own dialogue to connect them and give it some half-assed named, i can credit myself as a comic book creator? coolo

Gene Simmons' son did that with the Bleach and Death Note manga's. Its now called Simmonsing, just like Macekering .

Edited by Funkenstein
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lol creator :lol:

So if i take some random collection of manga white out the speech bubbles, add, own dialogue to connect them and give it some half-assed named, i can credit myself as a comic book creator? coolo

Unfortunately for him, Mr. Macek's legacy is how a person can become an icon by stealing other people's work and taking all the credit.

And as far as the whole "How should Macross fans view Robotech?" I view RT as the thing that did turn a lot of people to Macross, however even if RT never existed, Macross still would've been popular. Considering that RT doesn't exist in Japan and the Macross franchise has been doing fine ever since it has been isolated in Japan post-Mac+, I think western anime fans would've eventually caught on to Macross. I never saw nor heard of RT before i got into Macross. I found Macross via the internet with a torrent of DYRL. So, i don't think it is a bad attitude to pretend RT doesn't exist, because (for Macross, anyway) it just plain doesn't matter, completely inconsequential.

Sounds to me that you're saying anime fans would've discovered Macross around the mid to late 90s if not for Robotech. Would Macross had gotten world wide exposure if not for Robotech? Maybe so but not on the same degree. Back in the 80s I heard about animes like Gundam or Orguss but I never saw those shows until the 90s or 2000s. By I time I watched the original versions the anime quality was dated and I watched them with no subtitles. My first exposure to Macross was through RT and I'm grateful it was in the 80s about 2 years after it aired on Japanese television. I don't know if RT made Macross a big hit but I do know it gave it more exposure than it would have had if left in Japan. I watched every episode on free UHF television an I didn't have to shell out dollars for VHS tapes until much later.

Edited by terry the lone wolf
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Sounds to me that you're saying anime fans would've discovered Macross around the mid to late 90s if not for Robotech. Would Macross had gotten world wide exposure if not for Robotech? Maybe so but not on the same degree. Back in the 80s I heard about animes like Gundam or Orguss but I never saw those shows until the 90s or 2000s. By I time I watched the original versions the anime quality was dated and I watched them with no subtitles. My first exposure to Macross was through RT and I'm grateful it was in the 80s about 2 years after it aired on Japanese television. I don't know if RT made Macross a big hit but I do know it gave it more exposure than it would have had if left in Japan. I watched every episode on free UHF television an I didn't have to shell out dollars for VHS tapes until much later.

Not this argument again...

Okay, my thinking on the subject is that, yeah, Robotech gave Macross more exposure, but at what cost? Macross is forever saddled in a lot of people's minds with two quite different (and arguably inferior) series, many portions of the original story have gotten lost in the shuffle, and the further chapters of the franchise remain unavailable legally in many places around the world. One could easily argue that had it been created differently, picked up by a different company, or had simply remained unreleased until later, things would have turned out better.

Or not. It's all hypothetical, anyway.

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So i was wondering. Since Tatsunoko has the worldwide merchandising and distribution rights, does that mean that they and HG collect all the revenue and BW and Studio Nue don't see a dime of those outside-of-japan profits?

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Well besides Claster (who distributed Starblazers), HG stayed pretty close to the source material and didn't totally dumb it down. You had World Events or Sandy Frank but we all saw the results of that handling of anime. Let's leap frog to the 90's. What if Robotech never aired in the 80's and company like US Renditions/LA Hero distributed Macross. You would get a decent translation but would have to pay $25 for two episode tapes and never be able to see it free on television.

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