Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread IV *Read 1st Post*

[Master Dex]

I didn't necessarily think there was a VF-24. What it seemed to me is Shinsei designed the YF-24 and then sold the design to various colony fleets (something more realistic in today's world than being contracted to build a whole series of jets). From there Frontier's LAI company re-modified the YF-24 design and came up with the VF-25 which apparently had much better performance than the YF-24 as it took our mysterious cyborg cabal by surprise. Meanwhile Galaxy Fleet did the same thing but with their prediction to cyborgs they designed a fighter to be operated by people with cybernetic implants that would be a death trap for anyone else thus making the performance higher than anything possible even with an Ex-Gear system, ala the VF-27 (which while being a super VF suffers from brittle airframe disease but since it rarely gets hit this is mitigated by it's speed and maneuverability).

This doesn't mean however that Shinsei didn't take their YF-24 prototype and develop a manufacturer version aka a VF-24 and then sell that to anyone that doesn't want to take the design and tweak it themselves, but there is no evidence I believe to support that this was done so it would be speculation.

[RedWolf]

According to Gubaba's latest Macross Chronicle translation on the VF-25. The VF-24 was a joint venture of Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy. A finished product.

While it can be said the YF-24 was initially developed by Shinsei Industry.

Edited January 5, 2009 by RedWolf

[Mr March]

I think RedWolf is on the right track; the way they've described the YF-24 in the translated trivia, there has to be a VF-24. The Macross Frontier and Macross Galaxy fleets were apparently the only ones that changed enough of the YF-24 design to justify a new number designation for their re-designed fighters. This means that the other New UN Spacy fleets and colonies that chose to adopt the YF-24 as their new main variable fighter simply mass produced the YF-24; hence VF-24.

[edwin3060]

...Meanwhile Galaxy Fleet did the same thing but with their prediction to cyborgs they designed a fighter to be operated by people with cybernetic implants that would be a death trap for anyone else thus making the performance higher than anything possible even with an Ex-Gear system, ala the VF-27 (which while being a super VF suffers from brittle airframe disease but since it rarely gets hit this is mitigated by it's speed and maneuverability)...

This is just speculation right?

Edited January 5, 2009 by edwin3060

[azrael]

This is just speculation right?

Kinda, yes. But the way it sounds in Official File vol. 2 makes it sound like Galaxy never intended the 27 to be used by a human pilot. The wording used on the official site indicates that the 27's performance would intolerable to any normal human pilot.

[edwin3060]

Kinda, yes. But the way it sounds in Official File vol. 2 makes it sound like Galaxy never intended the 27 to be used by a human pilot. The wording used on the official site indicates that the 27's performance would intolerable to any normal human pilot.

Sorry, edited above post to emphasize the portion I was referring to about the brittle frame, not the pilot part.

[Mr March]

Never heard of any brittle frame on the VF-27 Lucifer. Everything in the series and the official trivia suggests the thing is just as strong, if not more durable than any other valkyrie. In fact, the VF-27 might be a little stronger, given it's capability to endure Mach 9 inside an atmosphere using the Pin Point Barrier system to enhance it's air friction resistance.

[azrael]

Sorry, edited above post to emphasize the portion I was referring to about the brittle frame, not the pilot part.

That I don't know about. If the thing was brittle, I would have expected it to break apart many times. Official File vol. 2 mentions "low airframe versatility which makes it unsuitable for mass production."

[Mr March]

That I don't know about. If the thing was brittle, I would have expected it to break apart many times. Official File vol. 2 mentions "low airframe versatility which makes it unsuitable for mass production."

That doesn't suggest a brittle hull or frame.

If I were to interpret that phrase, it would say: "The VF-27 can't accommodate Super Packs, APS-25A/MF25 Armored packs or AP-SF-01+ Custom Aegis Packs, so the thing simply ain't versatile enough to be mass-produced."

[edwin3060]

Yep so would I. Good to know then --- although I would probably put in that it doesn't need all those packs given its intrinsic array of weaponry and the versatility of its main beam grenade launcher.

Edited January 5, 2009 by edwin3060

[Mr March]

To my mind, the VF-27 Lucifer is simply mono-role or dual-role. The VF-27's high-performance and beam cannon strongly suggest it is a Strike Valkyrie; it's designed to deliver powerful ordnance (beam cannon) against large targets but has the speed and maneuverability to also act as a Fighter. The VF-27 doesn't "need" Super, Armored or Aegis Packs because it's not designed to use them, hence it has low airframe versatility.

By comparison, the VF-25 Messiah is multi-role. The VF-27 can function has Air/Space Superiority Fighter (VF-25F), as an Attack Craft (VF-25S Armored), as an Electronic Warfare Valkyrie (RVF-25), as a Support Valkyrie (VF-25G) and as an Interceptor (VF-25 Super Messiah). The VF-25 Messiah would have high airframe versatility, since it's airframe is designed to accommodate all these custom modules with specialized hardware.

At least, that's how I interpret it.

[Letigre]

That doesn't suggest a brittle hull or frame.

If I were to interpret that phrase, it would say: "The VF-27 can't accommodate Super Packs, APS-25A/MF25 Armored packs or AP-SF-01+ Custom Aegis Packs, so the thing simply ain't versatile enough to be mass-produced."

I'd be willing to argue that point. That is, whether it is versatility itself that truely matters (it obviously performs at least on par with the VF-25, be they Super or Armored), but instead that the lack of it in that context probably makes it unappealing*. The fact that pilots (probably) have to be cybernetic to fly it doesn't help it's appeal, either.

[*That is.. to military planners in-universe, and to marketers out of universe .]

[Master Dex]

That doesn't suggest a brittle hull or frame.

If I were to interpret that phrase, it would say: "The VF-27 can't accommodate Super Packs, APS-25A/MF25 Armored packs or AP-SF-01+ Custom Aegis Packs, so the thing simply ain't versatile enough to be mass-produced."

I see.. It was that phrase initially that led me to believe it had a brittle airframe. I misunderstood, sorry people.

Ok, so the 27 is just a strong, just not as easy to use for any situation.

[Mr March]

Letigre

The quote is fictional context, so we're talking fictional context. The UN Spacy/New UN Spacy appears to embrace multi-role variable fighters. The VF-1 Valkyrie, the VF-11 Thunderbolt, hell even the VF-17 Nightmare (a special operations fighter) had an ELINT variant. In the case of the VF-27, lack of versatility appears to be the reason why it's not mass produced when more versatile options are available to the UNS/NUNS.

Master Dex

No problem.

I'd say the VF-27 Lucifer simply fulfills a niche role and as such, there's no reason to mass produce thousands of them when there's not the need.

[shadow3393]

The VF-27 can function has Air/Space Superiority Fighter (VF-25F), as an Attack Craft (VF-25S Armored), as an Electronic Warfare Valkyrie (RVF-25), as a Support Valkyrie (VF-25G) and as an Interceptor (VF-25 Super Messiah).

In the context of your position, this line confuses me, you mean the VF-25 right, not the VF-27.

[sketchley]

Never heard of any brittle frame on the VF-27 Lucifer. Everything in the series and the official trivia suggests the thing is just as strong, if not more durable than any other valkyrie. In fact, the VF-27 might be a little stronger, given it's capability to endure Mach 9 inside an atmosphere using the Pin Point Barrier system to enhance it's air friction resistance.

PPB AND energy conversion armour.

http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=1934

[Morpheus]

I saw a side view of the NUNS space stealth cruiser in GM DX 7.0, but I don't want to buy the entire book just for getting one pic. Darn, I want a true lineart or design book for MF.

[Zinjo]

The absence of a VF-26 can be explained it is considered some what a bad luck number.

13+13=26 Given the history with the fate of Megaroad 13 and Battle 13 it is understanble superstition.

Actually, "4" is the bad luck number in Japan. The number "13" is purely a western superstition.

I'd suspect the lack of a VF-26 is that either that number was assigned to a new YF in development or Galaxy the used the designation in the development of the VF-27.

For all we know, a VF-26 exists as a lower performing version of the VF-27....

[edwin3060]

Actually, "4" is the bad luck number in Japan. The number "13" is purely a western superstition.

I'd suspect the lack of a VF-26 is that either that number was assigned to a new YF in development or Galaxy the used the designation in the development of the VF-27.

For all we know, a VF-26 exists as a lower performing version of the VF-27....

Oh yea.. I would like to see a VF-27 with a normal cockpit, which is what the VF-26 might be.

[badboy00z]

Is it just me or are there more odd VF numbers than that are even?

[edwin3060]

Is it just me or are there more odd VF numbers than that are even?

Well, assuming all the numbers are used up to VF-27, and including VF-3000 and VF-5000, there are more even VF numbers than odd. However, among the 'main' VFs, we have the VF-1, VF-4, VF-11, VF-17, Y/VF-19, YF-21, VF-22, VF-25 and VF-27, which makes for 7 odd numbered VFs and 2 even numbered ones, so yes, it does seem like the odd numbered VFs are featured more often.

[Mr March]

You'll find odd numbers are used in fiction far more than even numbers. An odd result is also often chosen over an even result in reality, especially when reporting in the media. People have a natural tendency to ascribe believability to odd numbers or fractions and to perceive even numbers as calculated or artificial. Even numbers are seen as more prevalent in controlled conditions, where all the math works out. Odd numbers are seen as the uneven ebb and flow of real life, where things don't work out as clearly and concisely. Even for theory, odd for practice.

If you're creating fiction, the use of odd numbers is another layer of realism you can add which helps suspend the disbelief of your audience. Even, orderly numbers and multiples feel manufactured and fake. Odd numbers or designations that don't follow patterns feel more real, since in reality all kinds of events occur that break otherwise orderly patterns.

Short of it is, it's just a simple writing trick

[edwin3060]

You'll find odd numbers are used in fiction far more than even numbers. An odd result is also often chosen over an even result in reality, especially when reporting in the media. People have a natural tendency to ascribe believability to odd numbers or fractions and to perceive even numbers as calculated or artificial. Even numbers are seen as more prevalent in controlled conditions, where all the math works out. Odd numbers are seen as the uneven ebb and flow of real life, where things don't work out as clearly and concisely. Even for theory, odd for practice.

If you're creating fiction, the use of odd numbers is another layer of realism you can add which helps suspend the disbelief of your audience. Even, orderly numbers and multiples feel manufactured and fake. Odd numbers or designations that don't follow patterns feel more real, since in reality all kinds of events occur that break otherwise orderly patterns.

Short of it is, it's just a simple writing trick

That's just odd

[nanashino]

http://www.macrossmecha.info/ac/qf4000/qf4000.html

http://www.macrossmecha.info/a/apsf01+/apsf01+.html

Nanashi's Information Group

www.macrossmecha.info

Line art of the RVF-25 radome and Luca's Ghost from the new February 2009 issue of Hobby Japoan magazine, just released yesterday.

I will do a better scan later, when I remove the page from the magazine.

Graham

[edwin3060]

http://www.macrossmecha.info/ac/qf4000/qf4000.html

http://www.macrossmecha.info/a/apsf01+/apsf01+.html

Nanashi's Information Group

www.macrossmecha.info

Thanks for the pictures! What is NIG about anyway? The QF-4000 looks like an X-9 w/ Fast packs.

Edit: From the pictures of the VF-25G and RVF-25 on the Toy thread, it seems like each wing pod on the Super pack has 3 micromissle launch ports around the front.

Edited January 19, 2009 by edwin3060

[edwin3060]

On the topic of the RVF-25--- did SK copy the ventral ELINT fin straight out of Yukikaze? I'm pretty sure no real-world plane has that kind of fin. Also, since Ozma has SMS001 markings, Michael is SMS003 and Luca is SMS004 and Alto is SMS007, I assume Gilliam is SMS002, who are SMS005 and SMS006?

[Zinjo]

On the topic of the RVF-25--- did SK copy the ventral ELINT fin straight out of Yukikaze? I'm pretty sure no real-world plane has that kind of fin. Also, since Ozma has SMS001 markings, Michael is SMS003 and Luca is SMS004 and Alto is SMS007, I assume Gilliam is SMS002

I'm pretty sure Gilliam was SMS007, Alto just took over the plane after Gilliam died.

who are SMS005 and SMS006?

They could very well be cannon fodder planes, or a flight team we didn't see during the series...

[sketchley]

On the topic of the RVF-25--- did SK copy the ventral ELINT fin straight out of Yukikaze? I'm pretty sure no real-world plane has that kind of fin. Also, since Ozma has SMS001 markings, Michael is SMS003 and Luca is SMS004 and Alto is SMS007, I assume Gilliam is SMS002, who are SMS005 and SMS006?

Not sure, but what's to say that Yukikaze didn't copy the concept from Macross? The VT-1 and VE-1 both have ventral located sensor arrays.

[Mr March]

Like most of the motifs and styles in Macross Frontier, I'm reminded more of Aquarion than anything else (radar fins included).

Edited January 21, 2009 by Mr March

[badboy00z]

The VF-25 has things that resembles the various Aquarion configurations.

[Vostok 7]

You'll find odd numbers are used in fiction far more than even numbers. An odd result is also often chosen over an even result in reality, especially when reporting in the media. People have a natural tendency to ascribe believability to odd numbers or fractions and to perceive even numbers as calculated or artificial. Even numbers are seen as more prevalent in controlled conditions, where all the math works out. Odd numbers are seen as the uneven ebb and flow of real life, where things don't work out as clearly and concisely. Even for theory, odd for practice.

If you're creating fiction, the use of odd numbers is another layer of realism you can add which helps suspend the disbelief of your audience. Even, orderly numbers and multiples feel manufactured and fake. Odd numbers or designations that don't follow patterns feel more real, since in reality all kinds of events occur that break otherwise orderly patterns.

Short of it is, it's just a simple writing trick

Not only that, but odd numbers tend to be more common in real world aircraft than even numbers, for whatever reason. In fact, most former Soviet manufacturers (MiG for sure) never used any designation numbers OTHER than odd numbers (MiG-1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27, 29, 31, 33, 35, though a few of their experimental craft used even numbers, notably the MiG-6 and MiG-

Kawamori-san is of course a well known fighter buff (duh), so that's probably another explanation

Vostok 7

[edwin3060]

Not sure, but what's to say that Yukikaze didn't copy the concept from Macross? The VT-1 and VE-1 both have ventral located sensor arrays.

Yea but the sensor array on the VE-1 doesn't look anything like the fin on the Yukikaze while the RVF-25's ventral sensor fin does-- even in it's mode of deployment.

I'd agree that the VF-25 does look like it was influenced by Aquarion, especially around the feet!

[Mr March]

Vostok 7

Yep, that's another reason specific to Macross.

edwin3060

IMO, the legs, feet, and head units of all the VF-25 Messiah valkyries display the most Aquarion influence. I'd also say that aside from the influence of NGE on Aquarion itself, the thinner mecha motif is another influence that has been carried into the Macross Frontier mecha.

[anime52k8]

Not only that, but odd numbers tend to be more common in real world aircraft than even numbers, for whatever reason. In fact, most former Soviet manufacturers (MiG for sure) never used any designation numbers OTHER than odd numbers (MiG-1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27, 29, 31, 33, 35, though a few of their experimental craft used even numbers, notably the MiG-6 and MiG-

Kawamori-san is of course a well known fighter buff (duh), so that's probably another explanation

Vostok 7

well the Russians are weird when it comes to aviation (there the only country that measures speed and altitude in meters). part of there odd naming convention system is that small fighter/attack aircraft receive odd number designations and bombers/transports and other large aircraft receive even designations.

valk designations fallow a US style designation system more than a russian style system, and the US system is about half and half even vs odd.

[Vostok 7]

well the Russians are weird when it comes to aviation (there the only country that measures speed and altitude in meters). part of there odd naming convention system is that small fighter/attack aircraft receive odd number designations and bombers/transports and other large aircraft receive even designations.

valk designations fallow a US style designation system more than a russian style system, and the US system is about half and half even vs odd.

Except several other Russian manufacturers use a mix of odd and even (though tend to prefer odd), for instance Sukhoi.

Vostok 7