RavenHawk Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 To take something that looks like a car or a plane and turn it into something that resembles a samuraii, a knight, an armored warrior with generally humanoid shape and form - this is not an easy task. Much criticism has often been laid at the feet of Transformers for anthropomorphizing the robots. Initially, Marvel comics did this because it was the best way to make it easy to draw them quickly for the comics. However, let's also celebrate the fact that by inadvertantly making the robots LOOK like super heroes of various sorts - the comics (and later cartoons) presented a wonderful challenge to engineers. A challenge, because it is not easy to make - say - a Walther P-38 actually transform into the original Megatron. It's not easy to make a sleek F-15 transform into the rather boxy seekers. The list could go on. On the other hand, with regard to Michael Bay's Transformers - it's actually quite easy to make a vehicle fold out into twenty randomly twisted parts with some fungus on a peg thrown in for good measure and called "th head." VFTF1, I'm not going to quote your whole post, just this part, but anyone reading here can go back a page and see the whole detailed explanation of why you dislike the new designs. Anyway, I have to say that I both disagree and agree with you here. Yes, I think it IS easier to NOT anthropomorphize. While I like some of the new, less human looking designs because I see no reason for an alien species to transform into something that looks human, the movie designs, especially the ROTF ones, go to far. I think Sideswipes transformation is fun and just the right mix of human-looking and alien-looking. The Arcee sisters, on the other hand, while having a cool (though not necessarily original) idea of riding on one wheel, are incredibly lazy! It's like the engineers at Hasbro or Takara (or, based on concept art, the movie designers) took about 5 minutes total to design all three of them. So, yes, I agree with you on some of the movie stuff having lazy robot designs. On the other hand, I do like that they're not all boxy. They've gone to some lengths, on some of the designs, to make something that, in my opinions, makes sense for a protoform type creature which only becomes boxy when disguised as a vehicle. I'm as much of a victim of nostalgia as anyone else, but look at the old G1 designs. You really think those weren't lazy either? You think they looked more anthropomorphic? Iron Hide, Ratchet? Ok, maybe those are extreme examples, but look at Prime. We all love him from G1, but his torso is a big rectangle. His limbs are just rectangles. They took a boxy vehicle, and made it fold out into a boxy, and not truly all-that humanoid or complicated, boxy robot. Look at the G1 cars, be they Autobot or Stunticon (or other Gestalts) or whatever. I'd say probably 75% of the transforms by: 1) Hood folds down, creating chest and revealing face 2) sides pull out of fold out, revealing arms 3) trunks pulls back, and flips back and separates slightly, creating legs. My point is, there are TERRIBLE examples of movie robot modes and transformations, and there are TERRIBLE examples of G1 robot modes and transformations. Movie looks more cluttered. G1 looks more boxy. There are excellent examples from both as well, and I'm sure we all have our favorites. HOWEVER, with the exception of Arcee... I don't think the movie engineers are any lazier than the G1 engineers were, and may in fact be more creative and have a tougher job. They have to take the movie designer's robot artwork, and try and figure out some way to make it actually work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sh002 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 i love the top part of the jetfire sr-71 toy. not all the kibble underneath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eriku Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Can Leader Jetfire's legs be posed more straight or are they more or less stuck in the fashionable 'goat' configuration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuinJester Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Can Leader Jetfire's legs be posed more straight or are they more or less stuck in the fashionable 'goat' configuration? He's got permabent legs. No straightening. Horrifying frankenmonster JetScreamPrime Centaur mode! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eriku Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 He's got permabent legs. No straightening. Horrifying frankenmonster JetScreamPrime Centaur mode! Someone's pining for GX-46 I see. I just picked up the Legends Jetfire who's legs can be straightened a bit, so it made me wonder if the Leader toy was similar. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Ravenhawk (quoted below): I do appreciate that a lot of my opinions are the result of nostalgia goggles and an emotional attachment to the characters that those "boxy" G1 toys represent - fair enough. However: consider the following - For the time the G1 toys were made, their engineering was anything but lazy. They were state of the art. They were extremely realistic vehicle forms that turned into for the most part visibly humanoid forms with legs, arms, hands, and heads with nifty "battle helments." They were die-cast metal and some of them were even more poseable than others. In the late 70s/early 80s when these things were king of the toy shelves - they were the best that engineering could accomplish back then. Fast forward to today: Today, engineering can take Optimus Prime's G1 design and create Masterpiece Optimus Prime. It can take Megatron from G1 and make Masterpiece Megatron. It can take Hound or Skyfire and make Henkei Hound and Skyfire. Henkei and Masterpiece are modern engineering applied to the old aesthetic designs. It's just like Yamato 1/60 v.2 vs. Bandai Chunky Monky. At the time the 1/55 Bandai VF was produced - it was the height of toy engineering. It was better than Transformers/Diaclone because it was way more poseable, sleek and complex (kind of like the Yamatos are better than the Masterpiece/Henkei line today). Now - fast forward - and with modern engineering the VF-1 aesthetic can come alive in the Yamato 1/60 - an improvement over the 1/55 Bandai. My problem with the engineering on ROTF and Movie toys in general is that it seems that the manufacturer did NOT use modern engineering technology for maximum effect. You know - before the first movie came out - I had this awesome dream - I thought - wow. It's happening. TF Live Action. I am so going to collect all of thse awesome toys. I accepted the radical aesthetic. I accepted it because seeing them move on screen was truly awesome and I figured - yeah - that's gonna be a kick ass toy. Then I bought Starscream and Ironhide. I felt so cheated. It was depressing. My dream of live action Transformers had come true and THIS was what Hasbro gave us as toys? I mean - Live Action Movie is just THE EVENT in OUR LIFE TIMES - the DEFINITIVE TRANSFORMERS EVENT. And how does the producer of the toys mark this event? How is this producer STILL marking this event. Sorry - but it is obvious to me that Hasbro made a conscious marketing decision to cut costs on the design and finish of the Movie toys - both 07 and ROTF. They so obviously basically got what would usually be considered a bootleg factory in China to make crappy replicas that vaguely resembled the Movie screen robots and sell them far and wide. They kept the engineering costs way down. They didn't paint details, they didn't try at all. They made little effort. Certainly LESS effort than with Beast Wars, wouldn't you agree? I mean. Come on - the Beast Wars toy line had more awesome looking molds than ROTF and the 07 movie combined. My complaint is NOT that Hasbro didn't just reissue boxy G1 Prime, nor is it that Bay chose these and not a different set of aesthetics for the Transformers. My complaint is that the coolness that is Barricade on screen is NOT reflected one bit in the POS that is the deluxe car. The same goes for every last one of these toys. And insofar as I thought - well...they didn't have time to work out the toys very well for the first movie and they didn't know whether it would be a bust or not... I was shocked - sadened - by the crap they put out for tis movie. I mean - come on. 15000 JPY retail for Devastator. Yeah - I know - he's the scape goat for all that's wrong... but he's a deserving scape goat. And again - it's not the design. Bunny ears and all that - all of it could concievably be very cool if the figure was more complex. No - not more complex. If the figure could DO what the 1985 toy could: COMBINE! So - yes. I feel totally cheated. I feel like Hasbro is taking the low and easy road and I feel that the Movie toys are worse than Armada. Worse than the Unicron trilogy toys. Worse because the movie set up high expectations - and these things don't meet them. For ROTF, they made one decent figure: Leader Optimus Prime. It's like they decided that Prime needed to be really great and everything else could just be half assed. I don't doubt that some of the figures are better than others. But you know what? This is LIVE ACTION TRANSFORMERS. ALL of the figures should BLOW EVERYTHING WE'VE SEEN BEFORE OUT OF THE WATER. This should be THE DEFINITIVE COLLECTION. That's what I was gearing up for in 07. Instead - I'm now gearing up to start collecting Transformers: Masterforce and Victory toys alongside waiting for more Henkei and Masterpiece. I love the movies - really. For all the cheesy crappiness - I cried watching the 07 one. I explained to my girlfriend all about my childhood and growing up dreaming about a movie like this - and I really really loved it. And I love Michael Bay for doing the movies. Seriously -all criticism aside. I do. But the toys are trash And I don't say that with an ounce of happiness. VFTF1, I'm not going to quote your whole post, just this part, but anyone reading here can go back a page and see the whole detailed explanation of why you dislike the new designs. Anyway, I have to say that I both disagree and agree with you here. Yes, I think it IS easier to NOT anthropomorphize. While I like some of the new, less human looking designs because I see no reason for an alien species to transform into something that looks human, the movie designs, especially the ROTF ones, go to far. I think Sideswipes transformation is fun and just the right mix of human-looking and alien-looking. The Arcee sisters, on the other hand, while having a cool (though not necessarily original) idea of riding on one wheel, are incredibly lazy! It's like the engineers at Hasbro or Takara (or, based on concept art, the movie designers) took about 5 minutes total to design all three of them. So, yes, I agree with you on some of the movie stuff having lazy robot designs. On the other hand, I do like that they're not all boxy. They've gone to some lengths, on some of the designs, to make something that, in my opinions, makes sense for a protoform type creature which only becomes boxy when disguised as a vehicle. I'm as much of a victim of nostalgia as anyone else, but look at the old G1 designs. You really think those weren't lazy either? You think they looked more anthropomorphic? Iron Hide, Ratchet? Ok, maybe those are extreme examples, but look at Prime. We all love him from G1, but his torso is a big rectangle. His limbs are just rectangles. They took a boxy vehicle, and made it fold out into a boxy, and not truly all-that humanoid or complicated, boxy robot. Look at the G1 cars, be they Autobot or Stunticon (or other Gestalts) or whatever. I'd say probably 75% of the transforms by: 1) Hood folds down, creating chest and revealing face 2) sides pull out of fold out, revealing arms 3) trunks pulls back, and flips back and separates slightly, creating legs. My point is, there are TERRIBLE examples of movie robot modes and transformations, and there are TERRIBLE examples of G1 robot modes and transformations. Movie looks more cluttered. G1 looks more boxy. There are excellent examples from both as well, and I'm sure we all have our favorites. HOWEVER, with the exception of Arcee... I don't think the movie engineers are any lazier than the G1 engineers were, and may in fact be more creative and have a tougher job. They have to take the movie designer's robot artwork, and try and figure out some way to make it actually work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 VFTF1, Sorry, our messages are getting too long to quote, so I'll just reply more simply. I understand everything you're saying, definitely see your points, and agree with a decent amount of it. I guess, for me, what it boils down to is that: 1) G1 were engineered toys first, and animated designs second. Thus, while the engineering is impressive for that time, and even to a degree for now, it wasn't as much of a stretch. Henkei... well, I don't own any, so I don't know how cool they might be, though they do look cool, but it seems easier to me to do an updated and more modern redesign of an older toy. The movie, on the other hand, has designs drawn up by movie designers with no real thought as to how they transform. Even the computer animators have flatly stated they did a lot of cheating on the transformations. I think it was a MAJOR effort to take something that was designed first to look cool, and figure out how to make it work as a toy. Devastator, as you say, is a perfect example. It's not that he doesn't transform and combine (except for the EZ/Legends one) because the engineers are too lazy to design a toy to do that; he doesnt transform and combine because the way he was designed by the movie designers, it is physically impossible. Mixmaster cannot have that robot mode, and still turn into that head, etc. 2) I'm just not as disappointed by the toys as you are. I guess, for me, i look at a $7-$30 movie transformer that transforms and looks pretty much like he did in the movie, I can drop him on the floor or let my kids play with him and he's still fine, but he's lacking in tampo and other details... and compare that to my $200 Yamatos (which I love) or CMs or Megahouse or Toynami "toys" where the transformation is no fun, they break while transforming then, never mind if they tip over, but look pretty and are nice for transforming once then leaving posed up on a shelf. For all the shortcomings, I can't really fault a $15 transformer that is the same size as a $150 anime toy, but is actually fun to play with and is durable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 So I guess leader Jetfire is very popular, there were around 5-8 of them at my local Toys R Us on tuesday and they're all gone now... just lots and lots and lots of Leader Megatron sitting sadly on the shelves all in disarray as they're being pushed out of the way by people looking for prime and jetfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Leader Megs was a shelf-warmer last time around. Why Hasbro thinks he'd be any more popular this time around, I don't know. He's not even the main villain this time around. At least he transforms into something resembling a vehicle this time. Leader Megs---always overproduced. Jetfire's going to be under-produced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letigre Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Awww, nuts... The robot hanging under it isn't hidden at all. And unlike Classic Silverbolt, it doesn't really blend. But it's a QBerting Blackbird... complete with Skunk Works logo on the tail. I want to not want it... but I want it. I'm feeling the same way..espeically after seeing that custom. I just don't know if his awesome huge-ness outweighs his awful kibble. I have always thought that Barricade or Blackout (with either Frenzy or Skorponok) would make for great Masterpiece Transformers. Blackout atleast could have been gifted with a leader-class toy like Brawl. Who knows, a couple years down the road the idea might not be so crazy. Barricade is supposed to get a Human Alliance figure, although paired with Frenzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) For the time the G1 toys were made, their engineering was anything but lazy. They were state of the art. They were extremely realistic vehicle forms that turned into for the most part visibly humanoid forms with legs, arms, hands, and heads with nifty "battle helments." They were die-cast metal and some of them were even more poseable than others. Even back then, some toys were better than others Hound had little tiny T-Rex arms. Prime was unable to raise his arms at the shoulder. Shockwave had very human proportions, and "massive" articulation. 2 independent legs with hips AND knees(which was incredibly rare in G1 times), and both arms had elbows and 2-axis shoulders. Sadly, as the line went on, the simpler and less-articulated designs were the ones that became more common. Even to the point of mono-foot designs taking over the whole line. Certainly, this was the same generation that brought us the six-changers, but for the most part it was not a case of engineering moving forward. I mean - come on. 15000 JPY retail for Devastator. Yeah - I know - he's the scape goat for all that's wrong... but he's a deserving scape goat. And again - it's not the design. Bunny ears and all that - all of it could concievably be very cool if the figure was more complex. No - not more complex. If the figure could DO what the 1985 toy could: COMBINE! While I certainly think that the Constructicons are grossly bungled on many levels... it's worth noting that Movie Devastator does something G1 Devastator can't do. It BENDS. And... Legends Devastator has transforming robots that combine... which doesn't exactly hurt your case, since their absolute cheapest and simplest subline can do a transforming combiner but neither the Voyager nor Supreme Constructicons can do both, despite being MUCH more expensive. I don't doubt that some of the figures are better than others. But you know what? This is LIVE ACTION TRANSFORMERS. ALL of the figures should BLOW EVERYTHING WE'VE SEEN BEFORE OUT OF THE WATER. This should be THE DEFINITIVE COLLECTION. Actually, it seems appropriate, given retro-nostalgia movies are almost invariably disappointments and shameless cash-ins. Edited July 2, 2009 by JB0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Well, I was thinking of replaying, but instead I went and got myself a Masterpiece Brave King Exkaiser :-) This'll be fun. Got Dangaurd Ace coming in probably on Weds - and I think the two of them will get along spiffingly Speaking of which - do people here count Brave as a variation/extention of Transformers? It's still Takara, and the aesthetic is hard to dispute in terms of looking very much like the direction that Transformers were going in with Victory and then Battlestars... Anybody else got a Brave King Exkaiser MP ? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntsan Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Well do we have Brave series here? Or you can open a new thread about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoptimus Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Man I want that Prime and Jetfire combo. I picked up the Voyager Fallen. Awesome toy! I think I will get Fab Longhaul as it looks more like the film to me than that Voyager version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zx31 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 My problem with the engineering on ROTF and Movie toys in general is that it seems that the manufacturer did NOT use modern engineering technology for maximum effect. True? Yes, but it's a bit unfair to compare the TF Movie toys to something like a 1/60 scale Yamato in terms of engineering. With the exception of leader class Prime, the toys aren't supposed to have a high level of transformation complexity. Not only is it cost prohibitive but they are also meant for children, so they do what neat mechanical engineering they can while making sure it is still durable. Granted, you will always have exceptions to the norm on both ends of the spectrum, but also consider the sheer number of toys that Hasbro and Takara engineers design in a year and some are going to get more time on the drawing board than the others. To use your example comparing Yamato Valkyries to Transformers, I don't see Yamato releasing 30+ new toy molds and designs every year that each have different transformations. I agree with you that there could have been much better designs and toys for both movies. I just disagree with your argument on why they should be better, if that makes any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
areaseven Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I'm tempted to buy Megatron, but which one is more worth it - Voyager or Leader? I've read that Voyager looks better, but the greenish color is a turn-off. Leader, on the other hand, doesn't have a jet mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiotheforsaken Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) Leader looks a lot better in person than he does in the pictures, but he's still a little underwhelming. I haven't seen a Voyager one in stores yet. Edited July 3, 2009 by kaiotheforsaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntsan Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) Well any repaint of him looks more menace The toys are nice sculptured, but the paint is killing them. (cost concern I think..) Edited July 3, 2009 by ntsan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiotheforsaken Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Jesus...I'd buy it if he looked like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyryder Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) I still can't get past the leader version's polio arm. I just got the voyager, and I like him. Better looking vehicle mode, too. Depending on the light, he looks more blue, than green. He's deffinitly a candidate for for silver paint, and a heavy black wash. Edited July 3, 2009 by Greyryder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
areaseven Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I still can't get past the leader version's polio arm. I just got the voyager, and I like him. Better looking vehicle mode, too. Depending on the light, he looks more blue, than green. He's definitely a candidate for for silver paint, and a heavy black wash. Yeah, Voyager Megatron seems more tempting. How's his articulation, though, compared to Leader Megatron? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyryder Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I don't have the leader, but the voyager's articulation is prettyy good. The head's a little restricted, but joint mechanism it sits on for transformation lets you fudge things a little, to have him look to the side. He has almost as much articulation as the Robot Replicas version. The voyager does have an awefull lot of back kibble, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeszekely Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I still can't get past the leader version's polio arm. I just got the voyager, and I like him. Better looking vehicle mode, too. Depending on the light, he looks more blue, than green. He's deffinitly a candidate for for silver paint, and a heavy black wash. Why not? It's movie accurate... one of the things that stuck out for me when I watched the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyryder Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I know movie Meg's left arm is thin, but the leader class version's arm looks too thin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I'd buy leader megs if it were repainted like that. looks gorgeous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeszekely Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I know movie Meg's left arm is thin, but the leader class version's arm looks too thin. Movie image. I think the toy's shoulder is a little small, but I still think the arm itself is pretty spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuinJester Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I think the voyager Megs is quite excellent, really. Very poseable, and his right arm can do such basic things as bend at the elbow, something the Leader cannot. He can kneel, too! His paint and deco really look a lot better in person than one would think having looked at all the promo photos and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeszekely Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I think the voyager Megs is quite excellent, really. I do have to say that Voyager Megatron looks a lot better in your photos than any official images of him. I'm not sold on any RotF Transformers, but if I was going to get a Megatron from the line, this looks like the one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crasis Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Awesome pics of Voyager Megs. Thanks for posting those! I still can't get over the blueish green they went with, though. I 'm waiting for the inevitable grey/silver repaint. It'll probably be a store exclusive like last time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeszekely Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Did anyone pick up Sideways? After watching the film and playing the video game tie-in, I'm starting to be a little more interested in some of the toys. I'm thinking Voyager Starscream and Breakaway, because I like the F-22 and F-35 and they seem like fairly reasonable facsimiles (as opposed to the original Voyager Starscream), and maybe Leader Prime and Voyager Megatron. But, of all the other toys, I'm kinda interested in Sideways. Partly because he's my Decepticon of choice so far in the game, partly because of his Barricade aesthetics (Barricade was probably my favorite Decepticon in the last movie), and partly because The R8's a pretty slick alt mode (even if they had to change it a little for the non-licensed toy). I'm a little turned off by all the red plastic, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I'm waiting for an HA Sideways or something--mainly for (hopefully) more car-mode accuracy. Ironically I passed on Dlx Barricade due to robot accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntsan Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Well I think there will be HA Barricade with Frenzy in the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiotheforsaken Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Did anyone pick up Sideways? After watching the film and playing the video game tie-in, I'm starting to be a little more interested in some of the toys. I'm thinking Voyager Starscream and Breakaway, because I like the F-22 and F-35 and they seem like fairly reasonable facsimiles (as opposed to the original Voyager Starscream), and maybe Leader Prime and Voyager Megatron. But, of all the other toys, I'm kinda interested in Sideways. Partly because he's my Decepticon of choice so far in the game, partly because of his Barricade aesthetics (Barricade was probably my favorite Decepticon in the last movie), and partly because The R8's a pretty slick alt mode (even if they had to change it a little for the non-licensed toy). I'm a little turned off by all the red plastic, though. Breakaway is pretty awesome actually, his colors are a little weird, but I really like the toy overall. Sideways...I'd wait, he's very unimpressive imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 It's about yay big: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letigre Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) Just when I thought Gamlin would put that thing out of my head.. Edited July 3, 2009 by Letigre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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