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Ranka Lee - Innocent naive teenager or Evil war criminal


taksraven
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There's nothing more fun than to see no one, no two, but three people posing at the same time. :lol:

Back to topic: Well, it's true that she is not in a good mental shape when the whole thing happens. In normal circumstance, she has every right not to sing because she feel not like to, but with her position as the Songstress of Hope and having the power to pacify the Vajra, I find that her act is a bit of irresponsible. Again, I believe in great power comes great responsibility, and I do hope that Ranka will realise that sometimes in this last 4 episodes. Heck, maybe she will be the key to unite humanity with the Vajra! :)

Edited by Sulendil Ang
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There's nothing more fun than to see no one, no two, but three people posing at the same time. :lol:

Back to topic: Well, it's true that she is not in a good mental shape when the whole thing happens. In normal circumstance, she has every right not to sing because she feel not like to, but with her position as the Songstress of Hope and having the power to pacify the Vajra, I find that her act is a bit of irresponsible. Again, I believe in great power comes great responsibility, and I do hope that Ranka will realise that sometimes in this last 4 episodes. Heck, maybe she will be the key to unite humanity with the Vajra! :)

She never asked to be the Songstress of Hope, she never even really had time to even consider it. Even Mimmay had to be bitchslapped into singing against the Zaentradi. It's not just about her getting up and singing. There's also the possibility that she'll perform and fail miserably and the question of what if she wasn't good enough. And at the end she did sing. Plus aside from that one instance she did exhibit countless other times where she did brave and selfless things.

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My question to the critics:

So young minmay in SDF:M can act selfish to Kaifun her manager who she relies on to look after her. But Ranka can't be selfish and irresponsible like all teens?

My answer to them is this:

Ranka = young minmay from SDF:M

Sheryl = mature grown up minmay from DYRL

Whatever reasons ranka is seen as bad can also be levelled at previous idols in the other shows. Although I'm not a big fan of ranka or sheryl myself, I just think the critics haven't been fair given we are 21 episodes in whereas in SDF:M minmay had 36 episodes to mature and listen to Kaifun and act like a grown woman.

Ranka is basically a war orphan while Minmay lived with her aunt and uncle. But aside from the story differences, Ranka isn't the young Minmay. In that case, Minmay was young all the way until she and Kaifun broke up, then began to mature after Kaifun left. But then she just wants to be with Hikaru, something I don't see Sheryl would do. Sheryl has a huge ego too, and Minmay was never like that, even when she was famous.

Like I said in a previous post, Ranka is the anti-Minmay, but character wise, Ranka's own story makes sense. I don't like her because the writers have debased Minmay in the process when Ranka sang My Boyfriend is a Pilot in such a fashion, as well as dressing her up to be the new Minmay.

One of the reasons SDF:M is liked is partly because there is a lot of characters in it. DYRL was nice to watch but it only focused on the love triangle due to time constraints and so the enemies weren't realistic - they were converted to good guys instantaneously rather than gradually. Macross 7, went in the other extreme: took way too many episodes to get its message across. Macross frontier I think has just the right balance. We get the mech porn, the characters develop quicker, but unlike SDF:macross there isn't a huge slow period in the show to stretch it to 36 eps, or the repetition of the same thing happening over and over again like in macross 7.

A another thread could be started on what is the best series, but I just say SDF:M is also liked because of it's mature characterizations and plot. I agree with the length and message of Macross 7, but in the end and after Encore and Dynamite, I liked it just as good as SDF: M. Macross F is filled with anime cliches, shaky plot, and a majority of characters you couldn't careless about (well me anyway). The animation is awesome, however. But that's all I'll say about this unless there's a topic somewhere about it. ^_^

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Yep when ranka runs away from her responsibility to sing at the funeral that is no different from when minmay runs away in DYRL and hikaru chases after her to give her the lyrics that misa translated from the memory plate that she and hikaru found when stranded on earth together. Minmay says to hikaru: "why the hell should I sing those lyrics you and that lady made for me to sing?"

I challenge all ranka haters to go rewatch DYRL and tell me minmay was acting any more mature then. (and that version of minmay is the oldest one!) You then come back into this thread and tell me minmay wasn't acting selfishly because she wanted to be happy with hikaru and only sing if she had won hikaru's heart...with a straight face. Really..minmay is sooo different. Much less selfish.

Look I'm sorry ranka haters. I'm just not convinced you are using the same standards to measure her by as you did for minmay from both DYRL and SDFM.

My opinion: You just go soft on minmay because ranka is newer. Minmay does the exact same thing, but you just chose to ignore this. Ranka does it, "oh that's so selfish!"

Now I'm not saying that because minmay was selfish it's "ok for ranka to be selfish and irresponsible". Of course not. I'm just saying that if you say that ranka is something, it's only because that was the formula estblished in SDF:M and DYRL and people don't act out of a sense of duty when they are in love. At this point in the story we are supposed to not like her for that but also we are understanding too because if you don't get what you want, you are not motivated to do anything.

Remember that episode when Max first introduces to hikaru that he is about the marry the alien. Hikaru starts to lecture him and stuff. I mean this is the enemy. Love makes people go against what is logical. Doesn't mean they are ignorant to the dead. I'm sure Miria had slaughtered a big pile of humans. But so did max right? But max is being selfish, caring more about his own happiness than whether this is wise and worrying about what others say and his public image and all that. It's irrational but that's love.

Now that ranka is going off on a trip, you should be happy anyway because there is the possibility that sheryl gets closer to alto. But I can't stop thinking that her saying goodbye is the same 'goodbye' hikaru gives to minmay in the rain of death episode where minmay is being watched over by kaifun a lot and she is busy with her career. "I may not come back this time"

So yeah, this was her last chance to say it to alto because of danger reasons. Of course Brera being in the way is only making things worse since he is Ranka's equivalent to Kaifun constantly following her around.

Just remember that humans are not robots perfectly able to do what is only logical and proper at the demand of others. Yes soldiers have to act like that, but that's not what macross is only about. The reliance on pop idols is what makes it unique. At the beginning of the series there was all this: "go sing if you feel like singing. Be true to your feelings. Who cares if nobody wants to listen to it. Just keep singing." And now there is: "Ok only sing when we tell you its ok and when we say you can."

So along the way, as she was getting famous and all the events were managed, the singer's own reason to sing was lost. The idea behind her power is when she puts her feeling into it, it can move others. But if she only does it because her arm is being twisted to do it and she doesn't feel right to do it at that moment, that power which motivates her to do it well is lost. The effect is lessened, and the song loses its impact. The turning point in DYRL was when minmay realised she could sing for her own reasons too, not just because the military wanted her to. "I'm going to do it for my parents so they can feel proud of me" or whatever.. (they were obviously dead at this point) But the point was after she was self-motivated, that power to sing with actual feeling returned.

Edited by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
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Let's hope all of you people here who criticize Ranka for running from her responsibilities that you never perform anything less than completely admirably when called upon. Ever.

Yes, because only perfection can criticize selfish actions. :rolleyes:

All of us have failures. Not all failures are forgiven.

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Yep when ranka runs away from her responsibility to sing at the funeral that is no different from when minmay runs away in DYRL and hikaru chases after her to give her the lyrics that misa translated from the memory plate that she and hikaru found when stranded on earth together. Minmay says to hikaru: "why the hell should I sing those lyrics you and that lady made for me to sing?"

I challenge all ranka haters to go rewatch DYRL and tell me minmay was acting any more mature then. (and that version of minmay is the oldest one!) You then come back into this thread and tell me minmay wasn't acting selfishly because she wanted to be happy with hikaru and only sing if she had won hikaru's heart...with a straight face. Really..minmay is sooo different. Much less selfish.

Look I'm sorry ranka haters. I'm just not convinced you are using the same standards to measure her by as you did for minmay from both DYRL and SDFM.

Yeah, I'm using SDF:M standards and not DYRL which was like an encapsulated and different version of the series.

My opinion: You just go soft on minmay because ranka is newer. Minmay does the exact same thing, but you just chose to ignore this. Ranka does it, "oh that's so selfish!"

Not me. I posted my reasons why I don't like Ranka.

Of course Brera being in the way is only making things worse since he is Ranka's equivalent to Kaifun constantly following her around.

Kaifun was Minmay's manager and cousin who wanted to be with her romantically. Brera is just a bodyguard ordered to watch over Ranka by Grace.

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Yes I know that I meant in terms of the idea that Brera is protecting ranka from Alto and making it seem like Alto doesn't deserve to protect her, and in how Kaifun is telling minmay to not trust hikaru cuz "he's a dirty baby-killing soldier". The hate level is similar. In SDFM Kaifun acts like he is the only one who can provide good protection. Minmay's own parents rely on him to look out for her.

I don't mean exactly identical.

Similar != identical.

Not me. I posted my reasons why I don't like Ranka.

It wasn't really directed at you just the people who point out all the fault of ranka but conveniently never mention that those same faults are in older versions of the pampered/sheltered pop princess role in macross shows before. Where they get to a point where they forget about the larger responsibility of using the music to help the military in some way to save lives.

To those people:

My argument is that Minmay isn't more mature than ranka if they have the same faults. Saying ranka is self-centred is true. Saying that selfish behavior is a good reason she isn't likeable is also true. Saying ranka is somehow worse than minmay I don't buy that. Saying it's unique part of her character I don't agree with.

At the time of the discussion we were only 21 episodes into it. So it's not fair to judge so harshly. When you were a teen all you cared about was yourself and having fun, not being solely responsible for saving people. This is normal part of life. Perfect characters that don't change gradually would seem more unrealistic to me. After all how many times has someone complained that in a lot of these anime shows the young pilots who look like they are kids are able to outsmart adults with training and life experience, ..just isn't believable? Just be patient. give ranka some time.

And it's not like she is deliberately seeking to be insensitive or anything. I guess different people interpret things based on their own age. Like I can see people liking misa because she is properly trained and 'tough' (like a role model for those who don't have what she has - ie respect points) while minmay is young and naive. But even misa has to accept that her being all scary and bossy is scaring the guys away from her, making her lonely and sad, which is why all the bridge bunnies make fun of her for being so "It's ok for me to die alone as an old maid".

If Claudia weren't there to guide her on matters of the heart she probably would have not made it and hikaru would have went with minmay. She is the most responsible character, but don't you find her sole devotion to her duty kinda sad too? Like "life is all about fighting because I'm from a military family and my genes and status mean I can't do other things too". Similar to how the zentradi think "war is the meaning of life and nothing else matters!" ?

Edited by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
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In one of the links I was quoting. True there are subtle differences between the idols from different shows, but I see just as many similarities too. How can you complain about something like this now, (ranka is selfish) when it's been part of the macross formula for so long? To get pathetic characters who have no interest in fighting and war (hikaru who comes off as very indecisive and unmanly in the show at the start) slowly develop and mature over time as the events around them draw them into conflicts and change them?

"oh noes I gotta save the princess from danger. I will be the knight in shining armor to protect you!"

and then the characters realises that killing bad guys for the greater cause (not just to save a nice piece of ass) is more noble and higher goal. Eventually their friends die and this makes them realise it's not fun and games or showing off to impress people. Innocent people are relying on you.

-The original motivation was selfish (I need to save her and rescue her from danger and the reward is getting the girl).

-Then over time they realise they got to sacrifice their free time to help others as well. (ie meaning they grow up, become less selfish and think about others too. Not just pretty princess)

They don't just start out instantly grown up knowing absolutely everything.

Edited by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
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Who says Minmay is better?

Minmay and Ranka both are spoiled brats.

Ranka isn't a spoiled brat, she is just a kid. She only gets fussy about Alto, her first love... How many of you were idiots about your first crush/relationship?

Minmay was a stuck up biatch for almost every moment after Miss Macross.

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It wasn't really directed at you just the people who point out all the fault of ranka but conveniently never mention that those same faults are in older versions of the pampered/sheltered pop princess role in macross shows before. Where they get to a point where they forget about the larger responsibility of using the music to help the military in some way to save lives.

Yeah no problem. But Minmay sang just to sing, and if she could, bring peace too, so that's why she cooperated with Global. Ranka is a tool to weaken/repel the Vajra. That's the big difference. Ranka could be apart of a Sound Force Jamming Birds, since they too, were portrayed as tools by UNS.

Ranka isn't a spoiled brat, she is just a kid. She only gets fussy about Alto, her first love... How many of you were idiots about your first crush/relationship?

Minmay was a stuck up biatch for almost every moment after Miss Macross.

I wouldn't confuse stuck up with being self-absorbed, which is why she came off like a biatch in certain scenes.

Edited by Tricky
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Actually, Ranka did sing just because she wanted to be a singer. I'm not certain how anyone could argue otherwise.

When it was discovered that her song had an affect on the Vajra, she cooperated because she thought she was helping to save her friends. Quickly she realized something was wrong, but it was the encouragement of Alto and others that kept her going.

Minmay did not sing to "bring peace". She sang as part of a distraction while the Macross and Vrlitwhai's fleet launched their attack on Bodolza's flagship.

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The culture shock tactics were also risky. As we saw later when Kamjin developed what I like to call a "resistance" to minmay's song. Sure he started getting scared (possible genetic manipulation to protect the protoculture from being attacked by the giants they themselves created so their own bioweapons wouldn't backfire?) but with determination, kamjin continued his plan, knowing that the whole contamination propaganda handed down by his superiors wasn't going to "physically" destroy them, but more "symbolically". (ie aliens defect from fighting) After he grew wiser, no amount of minmay singing was going to stop him from trying to attack humans. The thirst for warlike activity in his blood was stronger than the non-warlike activity. And they are not mutally exclusive. (he can enjoy the ancient mating rituals while destorying the sdf-1 :D)

Perhaps ozuma is right to feel putting ranka's life at risk was going to result in her dying? Her life is important because Ozuma loves her like a sister. Not just because she is valuable 'asset' for military or anything.

This might have contributed to her being more pampered and stuff as Ozuma took care of her like a little baby instead of letting her grow up normally? So she comes off as being annoying for not 'manning up' like normal characters should.

Minmay had her parents who refused for her to be a singer. Telling her she is too naive and to carry on the restaurant biz.

So Ranka has Ozuma constantly worrying about her getting harmed. Using alto to mke sure nothing happens to her.

And if you think about it, would you rather have somebody who doesn't want to be there, doing the job half-assed? Or someone who has put 100% effort into what they are doing and not whining or hesitating while there? This is where you get characters like Alice Holiday. She is like Mylene's inspiration, but she feels like she lost some of 'the magic' she had over time when it became 'just a job she does' and not something where she puts her whole soul into the music.

So perhaps that is why the bugs developed a little resistance (in ep21) because ranka's singing lacked the true emotion needed behind it, to move them? Just speculating.. There has always been that theme in previous shows where music varies in its usefulness and the character has some self doubt that makes them lose sight of why they chose to sing in the first place. Ranka's self doubt about the reasons for singing is no different. She know she is being used as a "distraction" and that so long as she isn't 100% certain it's the "right thing to do" just singing the song without feeling will lack the energy needed to make a difference. That's my take on the whole thing. Alto can sense when people are merely acting and putting on a show and when people are sincere. I suppose that's what Sheryl likes so much about him. He was the only one to stand up to her in episode 1 when all the gushing fanboys were cheering for her. If she is around him she can act normal and relaxed, and not have to worry that a fan is just caring about her because of her fame/talent/money/looks instead of caring about her as a person.

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Actually, Ranka did sing just because she wanted to be a singer. I'm not certain how anyone could argue otherwise.

I'd have to review the episodes again, but wasn't she influenced by Sheryl and Alto to some degree? That propped her ambitions vs Minmay who was thrown into Ms. Macross without knowing it.

When it was discovered that her song had an affect on the Vajra, she cooperated because she thought she was helping to save her friends. Quickly she realized something was wrong, but it was the encouragement of Alto and others that kept her going.

Minmay did not sing to "bring peace". She sang as part of a distraction while the Macross and Vrlitwhai's fleet launched their attack on Bodolza's flagship.

That may have been Ranka's motivation, to help her friends, but she ends up no more than a tool whenever she is flown into space and sings her song.

It could be argued that Minmay wanted to help bring an end to the war, knowing that her songs had an effect on the Zentradi after Exedole told her. Minmay was never a tool even up to then: she was doing what she did best being Ms. Macross. So she didn't come out and say she was singing for peace, but singing her songs gave a sort of peace and hope to the Macross citizens. That would seem like peace, right? Yes she was a distraction from Global and Exedole's viewpoint, I agree. And it would be perfect for Minmay not to understand military tactics, so she just did what she did best. To some degree, Ranka must know of why she's sings. She went with Mikhail and showed up singing in a sound booster valkyrie to keep the 33rd fleet from revolting. She proves to be a tool again.

So perhaps that is why the bugs developed a little resistance (in ep21) because ranka's singing lacked the true emotion needed behind it, to move them? Just speculating.. There has always been that theme in previous shows where music varies in its usefulness and the character has some self doubt that makes them lose sight of why they chose to sing in the first place. Ranka's self doubt about the reasons for singing is no different. She know she is being used as a "distraction" and that so long as she isn't 100% certain it's the "right thing to do" just singing the song without feeling will lack the energy needed to make a difference. That's my take on the whole thing.

I agree. Ranka knowing she is a distraction and basically unsure if she should sing just makes her character poorer, imo.

Edited by Tricky
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Ranka's lineage is mentioned in her character bio on the official Macross Frontier website. Kawamori has also mentioned it in a few interviews.

Thanks! Still... Wondering how Varja can have compatible DNA.. I mean they are mindless bugs. Or are they like going through some kind of evolution change??

It's like Genesis Climber Macross.

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Will you still hate Ranka if we get a nice boat ending? :lol:

yes.

@AgentOne:

I merely figured that ranka's mix made the most sense the way I broke it out;

obviously she's mostly human, has a quarter zentran mixed in (so what's the other quarter?)... vajra.

ta daa!

I mean everyone knows she's a quarter zentran, she said so... unless of course, this is a lie someone told her.

Edited by RF-26AAC
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yes.

@AgentOne:

I merely figured that ranka's mix made the most sense the way I broke it out;

obviously she's mostly human, has a quarter zentran mixed in (so what's the other quarter?)... vajra.

ta daa!

I mean everyone knows she's a quarter zentran, she said so... unless of course, this is a lie someone told her.

There doesn't have to be a quarter of something else for it to make sense. She can be a quarter zentran and 3/4 human. I doubt that she'd be genetically engineered with Vajra genes, just a successful implementation of the V-virus that Sheryl has.

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There doesn't have to be a quarter of something else for it to make sense. She can be a quarter zentran and 3/4 human. I doubt that she'd be genetically engineered with Vajra genes, just a successful implementation of the V-virus that Sheryl has.

No, I think there's more than just an infection.

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VF-25 has a point. The marriage of a fast pack and a sound system!

I know! And you see it goes full circle too. Because if you think of Soundboosters, who's the first person you think of? Basara. And Basara and Vajra have the same meaning or some such. And who has an unexplained connection with the Vajra? Ranka. It all fits so well! :lol:

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yes.

@AgentOne:

I merely figured that ranka's mix made the most sense the way I broke it out;

obviously she's mostly human, has a quarter zentran mixed in (so what's the other quarter?)... vajra.

ta daa!

...

"ta daa" my ass.. Did some bug impregnate her Grandmother or something? Is everyone forgetting the Varja are MINDLESS BUGS?

If I stick a bug in a girls Vaj, she isn't going to have half bug children... She will probably be pissed at me and thats about it.

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"ta daa" my ass.. Did some bug impregnate her Grandmother or something? Is everyone forgetting the Varja are MINDLESS BUGS?

If I stick a bug in a girls Vaj, she isn't going to have half bug children... She will probably be pissed at me and thats about it.

"probably"... as if that was theoretical... :rolleyes: I think there's first hand knowledge there. :lol:

the thing that gets me is that she not only has vajra blood, but she's the queen?

And what's up with the vajra in the concert right before the attack... the guy in front of it was scared shitless... :lol:

I hoe they make a movie version and call it "Attack of the flying Vaj!"

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:lol: @ Agent ONE's post.

Agent ONE: You know, I couldn't help but wonder if her origin about being a quarter Zentrandi is just another makeup memory, told by Ozma to hidden her true origin. After all, she did have a memory block during her young age, and I think her real origin might be a major revelation during the final episodes of MF. (I suspect that will got to do with Grace and that fishy Macross Galaxy...)

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:lol: @ Agent ONE's post.

Agent ONE: You know, I couldn't help but wonder if her origin about being a quarter Zentrandi is just another makeup memory, told by Ozma to hidden her true origin. After all, she did have a memory block during her young age, and I think her real origin might be a major revelation during the final episodes of MF. (I suspect that will got to do with Grace and that fishy Macross Galaxy...)

I think the only logical explanation is she is 100 percent Varja, and just seems human like.

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