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Macross Frontier News Thread IV *Read 1st post*


azrael
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You fell in my KEIKAKU DOORI!

How strong does this REASON need to be? Have you ever thought about it?

Devoting half an episode to a bunch of new characters, which sets them up as the "real game" seems to be a very strong reason.

BTW, typing things in upper case doesn´t make them true. So far I have been advocating a plot which makes internal sense, while your response seems to be "Who needs plot to make sense?!?".

For example, we have a singer in a mecha anime.

STRONG REASON for her presence: she is there to defeat enemies with her singing.

WEAK REASON for her presence: she is there just because we like singers.

How came you can accept a WEAK REASON for main characters being singers in Macross but demand that secondary characters need to have a STRONG REASON to be there? Like, them being the ultimate enemy or something like that, and not just Conspirator A, Conspirator B, Conspirator C and Conspirator D?

Obviously we will get at least a second scene from them which will show how they are doing, and this is needed because they were made into characters, but their main reasons to be in the story are 1) to show the real status of Grace 2) to show a broader perspective of the impact of main characters' actions. This in a stylish "show, don't tell" way.

This is not to say their role couldn't be expanded upon, but so far there is no reason to do so.

So, what, your argument again is "We need no steenkeng plot!"? The show dedicated more than half an episode to them, which would indicate to me that they are supposed to be important characters, not just background noise. Mr. Bilrer has even seen much less screentime, but still figures prominently as being someone who works in opposition to their goals.

If they are really nothing more than what you say, that half episode was wasted. If they are supposed to be more, then that half episode was a good set-up for a second season.

And so far the singers have a strong reason to be there. Ranka is able to defeat the Vajra, Sheryl is essential for the love triangle and there is more to her ( or her earrings ) than what meets the eye.

Anime are different from comics. The first difference is that they don't go on and on. The second difference is that they still need to separate the story in self-contained units called "episodes". These episodes are to be seen one per week. Each episode usually needs to have its own story (unless it continues from the previous one), therefore there are always a lot of overall filler parts, because they serve just for a particular episode. If an episode in itself failed to build a good own climax usually it's called a bad episode (an episode not so entertaining). A bad episode may still have elements important to the overall story though, and may still be important to the overall pacing and emotional polarity, despite being a filler.

I actually thought about leaving that part of Mr. Weinbergs article out, because I thought it might serve as a counter-argument to my point. I let it stay in to not falsify the article.

Yet, what you point out as dissimilarities are actually things that are quite similar between the two mediums. A normal comic is also supposed to be self-contained yet involve parts of a greater plot, because that is something which keeps readers interested in getting the next comic.

About 99% of comics end with a cliff-hanger of some sort, because of the same principle, bring back the reader for the next issue.

And, yes, comics go on and on. Yet even so, 25 comics would constitute 2 years of publishing. In that time frame, a change of writer is almost guaranteed nowadays. That normally means that the outgoing writer will finish his story-arcs as good as he can, tying up loose ends and leaving a blank slate for the next writer. Animes have it even easier, seeing how the creative team stays constant, so planning for a second season would be easy for them.

Emotional polarity is a technical term from another author's guide to writing. You can't reduce writing just to making things flow from one point to another while avoiding fillers.

I would need an explication on what exactly you mean with "reduce writing" to give a good answer.

You consider yourself a good writer, yet the first thing you suggest right of the bat is to jump the shark, and with a franchise that is already successful as it is, and as it is doing.

I am not a writer, Mr. Weinberg is. I am just a fan of his work, Macross and a good number of other franchises. I dare to think that the amount of material I have read and seen allows me some insight into writing techniques, although I´d surely be terrible in describing them. Yet, "foreshadowing" is one such technique which I have seen many times, and it is being applied liberally in Macross Frontier. If there is no pay-off to all of it, then I´d have to cry foul.

And as to "jumping the shark" ( or "nuking the fridge", if that has catched on ^_^ ), I then have to ask: Do you then consider Macross Plus to have been the point where the Macross franchise jumped the shark?

The franchise itself would be, IMO, get too repetitive if we get as the next opponent yet another race which just happens to have a music vulnerability.

I am not saying that music should be excluded from the next Macross series ( or the next season of Frontier ). I am not crazy.

But its use should be put less in the realm of songs magically affecting the opponent to lose control over themselves ( SDFM, Macross 7, Macross Frontier ).

I´d rather see them having music being used as a means of communicating that both sides have similarities and can work together, despite their differences.

As you can see, I am no writer. My idea is pretty weak-sauce, but then again its Kawamori who surely could come up with something better. B))

Edited by magnuskn
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^^

43030_20080901203420_2d5d1bcedb5db69290ab20d883c42a05.jpg

...I thought it looks Photoshopped, but then again the shadows look projected well to fit the bedsheet that it can't be! If it's not Photoshopped then wow, but regardless it's great art :)

Oops, looks like it is Photoshop (but great art nonetheless):

post-6052-1220319956_thumb.jpg

Edited by mike_s_6
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I see no problems in wrapping things up in the remaining 4 episodes, but then again, I wouldn't be too surprised if we never hear from Mr. Bilrer and Macross Galaxy again. Look at how many loose ands Zero left dangling. Having to fill out the blanks by myself is one thing that makes some anime series so special (Evangelion, for example, took that to the extreme)

I think the whole plot-centered approach is only one (conservative) approach at making movies. Weinberg himself admits that there are different ways (and mentiones HK action cinema), just that he doesn't like them. I guess he then wouldn't like Blade Runner or Apocalypse Now, either.

When I look at my personal top 10 movie list, half of them aren't the plot-driven kind.

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I see no problems in wrapping things up in the remaining 4 episodes, but then again, I wouldn't be too surprised if we never hear from Mr. Bilrer and Macross Galaxy again. Look at how many loose ands Zero left dangling. Having to fill out the blanks by myself is one thing that makes some anime series so special (Evangelion, for example, took that to the extreme)

I think the whole plot-centered approach is only one (conservative) approach at making movies. Weinberg himself admits that there are different ways (and mentiones HK action cinema), just that he doesn't like them. I guess he then wouldn't like Blade Runner or Apocalypse Now, either.

When I look at my personal top 10 movie list, half of them aren't the plot-driven kind.

When I look at mine, all 10 are plot-driven, so my taste obviously differs.

Looking at Macross Frontier, I have seen extremely well-done plotting, but at the moment I am simply stumped how all plot threads could be sewn up by the last four episodes. The next episode doesn´t look to change the pacing too much, so in my opinion it is not all too difficult to see a second season in the making.

While the plot seems to me to be open ended enough for a second season, the character arcs do seem to be almost finished. Then again, American TV shows very often have 5+ seasons, and the writers always find something to be done with the characters. I just wouldn´t want to see Sheryl and Alto end up together to be separated again in the next season. A focus on another relationship triangle would be much better.

As for a possible second season, it would really be nice to see the Macross universe fleshed out a bit, with a more detailed look at other colonization fleets and where they are, how they are composed, maybe bring back some older characters... there are tons of things which could be done. Certainly it would be better than another 10 year time-jump for the next series.

Edited by magnuskn
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http://imepita.jp/20080903/023160

第23話 トゥルー・ビギン  9/11

アルトが、V型感染症を患うシェリルに手料理を振舞っていると、ビルラーと三島が訪ねてくる。

Alto cook for Sheryl~~~~

Bilra will Miclone again.

^^

第24話 ラスト・フロンティア  9/18

アルト、ルカ、クランがそれぞれの思いを胸に秘めるなか、フロンティア船団はバジュラの本星へ向かう。

Frontier will go to Bajura's homeland.

Gallia 4 or other planet???

Edited by kresphy
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http://imepita.jp/20080903/023160

第23話 トゥルー・ビギン  9/11

アルトが、V型感染症を患うシェリルに手料理を振舞っていると、ビルラーと三島が訪ねてくる。

Alto cook for Sheryl~~~~

Bilra will Miclone again.

^^

第24話 ラスト・フロンティア  9/18

アルト、ルカ、クランがそれぞれの思いを胸に秘めるなか、フロンティア船団はバジュラの本星へ向かう。

Frontier will go to Bajura's homeland.

Gallia 4 or other planet???

Hmmm interesting, but Galia IV was practically demolished. :)

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Babelfished and edited for better understanding:

23rd episode: True Beginning 9/11

Alto cooks for Sherly who is infected by V-type infection, when he has a surprise visit from Mishima BIRURA. (aka Bilrer)

24th episode: The Last Frontier 9/18

While Alto, Luca and Klan conceal about their feelings to each one in their heart, the frontier fleet goes to the main star of Vajra.

Something tells me that episode 23 will be the episode where we got our major revelation about

Bilrer's full speech to Alto, Grace's fraction, Macross Galaxy, Leon's conspiracy and Vajra.

Edited by Sulendil Ang
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Devoting half an episode to a bunch of new characters, which sets them up as the "real game" seems to be a very strong reason.

These guys have a plan that involves Vajra. If Vajra became unserviceable their plan will be thwarted forever. They are totally dependent on how Vajra are doing, as is Bilrer. This is what you call "real game". Well, it's "real" because it's at a higher level than that of the main characters, but as a game it's almost passive <_<

BTW, typing things in upper case doesn´t make them true.

It's consistency with the preceding text. You called for it :p

So far I have been advocating a plot which makes internal sense, while your response seems to be "Who needs plot to make sense?!?".

The plot revolves around the Vajra. It's not "main characters versus corporations", it's "guys and Vajra". As long as authors don't stray too much from the Vajra the plot will still make sense B))

And, yes, comics go on and on. Yet even so, 25 comics

No, 25 chapters. One story per comics.

The difference with comics is that with a comics you read the next chapter of the story and you can still feel the story flowing smoothly. If you take instead Macross Frontier, remove OPs, EDs, teasers and eyecatches, and put all the rest together... well, you don't get a long movie, you get a series of disjointed clips.

It's the same with other anime. This is why the best structure for an episode is first half talking, second half fighting. Doing the opposite doesn't get good results, although sometimes authors are forced to do it.

I would need an explication on what exactly you mean with "reduce writing" to give a good answer.

There could be talking about the evolution of art in itself, and how post-modernism doesn't think of making sense as a strict rule.

Putting that aside, I think you should have noticed sometimes that there are anime full of obvious plot-holes and yet have a large following. You can even have people defending the plot-holes, inventing reasons out of the hat. Don't tell any names :ph34r:

You see, these anime caused an emotional investment that keep people attracted to them. After they appreciated the anime on the emotional level they will search for logical reasons that justify the attraction. Some anime has a coherent, well thought-out story. Some anime has few fan service. At the end, logical reasons are just excuses we use with other people. They are not the most important part, though, they are not how you get the almighty halo effect.

Do you then consider Macross Plus to have been the point where the Macross franchise jumped the shark?

If you pay attention to what Kawamori says, each series actually jumps the shark in its own way :p

The difference of Macross Plus is another. Macross 7 expanded the Supervision Army. Macross Zero expanded the Protoculture intervention in human evolution. Macross Frontier is expanding the importance of Fold dimension. Macross Plus did not expand any of the original concepts. Yet, in Macross Plus songs still save the day (unlike Macross Zero).

If you think about it though, Macross Plus and Zero didn't sell that well in Japan compared to the TV series. You know what? Karaoke is a Japanese word. I would take that very seriously :ph34r:

FV

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These guys have a plan that involves Vajra. If Vajra became unserviceable their plan will be thwarted forever. They are totally dependent on how Vajra are doing, as is Bilrer. This is what you call "real game". Well, it's "real" because it's at a higher level than that of the main characters, but as a game it's almost passive <_<

Yet it seems from the spoilers

that Frontier will go the Vajra homeland to probably nuke them with Dimension Eaters.

Ah, we´ll see what happens, we are talking in circles anyway.

The plot revolves around the Vajra. It's not "main characters versus corporations", it's "guys and Vajra". As long as authors don't stray too much from the Vajra the plot will still make sense B))

If that were the whole plot, Galaxy should not have been introduced as the power behind the scenes.

No, 25 chapters. One story per comics.

The difference with comics is that with a comics you read the next chapter of the story and you can still feel the story flowing smoothly. If you take instead Macross Frontier, remove OPs, EDs, teasers and eyecatches, and put all the rest together... well, you don't get a long movie, you get a series of disjointed clips.

It's the same with other anime. This is why the best structure for an episode is first half talking, second half fighting. Doing the opposite doesn't get good results, although sometimes authors are forced to do it.

There could be talking about the evolution of art in itself, and how post-modernism doesn't think of making sense as a strict rule.

Uh, I totally disagree that we´d get a series of disjointed clips. Like, absolutely. The episodes have a clear beginning and end, it´s not so very different at all from a series of comics which are telling a storyline. I really don´t know how I can discuss with you about this rationally if you are apparently viewing the series from another universe altogether.

Putting that aside, I think you should have noticed sometimes that there are anime full of obvious plot-holes and yet have a large following. You can even have people defending the plot-holes, inventing reasons out of the hat. Don't tell any names :ph34r:

You see, these anime caused an emotional investment that keep people attracted to them. After they appreciated the anime on the emotional level they will search for logical reasons that justify the attraction. Some anime has a coherent, well thought-out story. Some anime has few fan service. At the end, logical reasons are just excuses we use with other people. They are not the most important part, though, they are not how you get the almighty halo effect.

Yeah, inferior crap uses that sort of storytelling. Frontier hasn´t been inferior crap, it has been a very good story so far. It just seems on the way to conclude much too hastily to make use of all the elements it has introduced. Hence my thinking that we´ll get a second season.

Edited by magnuskn
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Has there ever been a double-length for an anime finale? (here's hoping it has) :mellow:

Yes, actually the final episode (episode 51) of Beyblade G Revolution was an 1-hour episode in the Japanese version and thus the Japanese version of Beyblade has listed 51 episodes, the American version splitted this last episode, so the American version of Beyblade has 52 episodes listed.

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Yes, actually the final episode (episode 51) of Beyblade G Revolution was an 1-hour episode in the Japanese version and thus the Japanese version of Beyblade has listed 51 episodes, the American version splitted this last episode, so the American version of Beyblade has 52 episodes listed.

Si lo hicieron con Beyblade, por la Sarita que lo hagan con Frontier tambien, carajo! :ph34r:

(that basically translates into "If they did it with Beyblade, let Holy Kawamori do it with Frontier too, dammit!")

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If that were the whole plot, Galaxy should not have been introduced as the power behind the scenes.

I don't necessarily disagree with either one of you, but this one just struck me. was there any actualy episode where Galaxy was established as the power behind the scenes? Sure, we have grace and her multiple AIs, but aside from showing the galaxy fleet on cam while the AIs are talking, we don't see any indication that the Galaxy is actually the puppet master.

Grace and Brera could be a secret faction inside the Galaxy (much the same way that they are now a secret faction in Frontier), and Galaxy could very well be a dead ship by now, also hijacked by Grace (which seems to be her plan for frontier too).

A while back, when the vajra became so lame (massacred by Alto's rage), we started theorizing that the final conflict would be between the Galaxy and the Frontier. but with the Vajra coming back in full force (indestructible and deadly as ever, and even killing Michael), i think the focus went back to the Vajra. and grace's group could be relegated to that stereotype of a "a self-proclaimed puppet master who over-estimated his understanding of his puppets".

anyway, whether the final conflict would be against the vajra (which recent developments seem to point to), or Galaxy or both, i believe it can be tied up in the remaining episodes. crossing my fingers! :)

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Babelfished and edited for better understanding:

While Alto, Luca and Klan conceal about their feelings to each one in their heart, the frontier fleet goes to the main star of Vajra.

WTF, threesome ending?

:ph34r:

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Nope. more like:

Klan (pissed off and in macro form): I think i'm in the mood for a little yaoi... (looks threateningly at luca and alto)

Luca/Alto: *gulp*

Wouldn't that actually be a tribute (in a twisted sort of way) to the original SDFM where Vrlitwhai asked Hikaru and Kakizaki to kiss?

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You know, based on the episode descriptions hidden behind all the spoiler tags, I wouldn't be surprised if we get

a reverse SDF:M ending. The massive alien fleet defolds over the planet and begins to lay waste, wiping out most of the civilization. Except the massive alien fleet is the Frontier fleet. And it's Ranka who acts as the catalyst to get part of the fleet to join forces with the Vajra, turning around and pointing their guns at Leon and Grace. Or maybe more DYRL style, with after the initial bombardment we have two fleets in orbit, pounding away at each other, Galaxy and Frontier, with the SMS and the Vajra caught in the middle.

That could be a really awesome finale, and I can see how they could wrap it up in the next few episodes.

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You know, based on the episode descriptions hidden behind all the spoiler tags, I wouldn't be surprised if we get

a reverse SDF:M ending. The massive alien fleet defolds over the planet and begins to lay waste, wiping out most of the civilization. Except the massive alien fleet is the Frontier fleet. And it's Ranka who acts as the catalyst to get part of the fleet to join forces with the Vajra, turning around and pointing their guns at Leon and Grace. Or maybe more DYRL style, with after the initial bombardment we have two fleets in orbit, pounding away at each other, Galaxy and Frontier, with the SMS and the Vajra caught in the middle.

That could be a really awesome finale, and I can see how they could wrap it up in the next few episodes.

Actually, I think you hit the nail right on the head. That would be a perfect way to end the series with the time left. B)) I actually hope you're right. And it makes sense, especially with

the use of the Dimension Eaters. Not to mention that Galaxy and Frontier battling it out would be an even neater twist.

Kawamori did promise a surprising end to the series. I just hope he really comes through with his promise during these last episodes. Though I gotta admit, things might still feel a little cramped with only 4 episodes left.

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I don't necessarily disagree with either one of you, but this one just struck me. was there any actualy episode where Galaxy was established as the power behind the scenes? Sure, we have grace and her multiple AIs, but aside from showing the galaxy fleet on cam while the AIs are talking, we don't see any indication that the Galaxy is actually the puppet master.

Grace and Brera could be a secret faction inside the Galaxy (much the same way that they are now a secret faction in Frontier), and Galaxy could very well be a dead ship by now, also hijacked by Grace (which seems to be her plan for frontier too).

A while back, when the vajra became so lame (massacred by Alto's rage), we started theorizing that the final conflict would be between the Galaxy and the Frontier. but with the Vajra coming back in full force (indestructible and deadly as ever, and even killing Michael), i think the focus went back to the Vajra. and grace's group could be relegated to that stereotype of a "a self-proclaimed puppet master who over-estimated his understanding of his puppets".

anyway, whether the final conflict would be against the vajra (which recent developments seem to point to), or Galaxy or both, i believe it can be tied up in the remaining episodes. crossing my fingers! :)

In tha case, the reversal of fortunes for the Galaxy faction hasn´t happened yet. Grace still is letting Leon dance to her tune, and we don´t know if Breras going away with Ranka was in her plans or not. If it turns out that she hadn´t planned on Ranka and Brera leaving, it well may turn out your way, though. ^_^

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You know, based on the episode descriptions hidden behind all the spoiler tags, I wouldn't be surprised if we get

a reverse SDF:M ending. The massive alien fleet defolds over the planet and begins to lay waste, wiping out most of the civilization. Except the massive alien fleet is the Frontier fleet. And it's Ranka who acts as the catalyst to get part of the fleet to join forces with the Vajra, turning around and pointing their guns at Leon and Grace. Or maybe more DYRL style, with after the initial bombardment we have two fleets in orbit, pounding away at each other, Galaxy and Frontier, with the SMS and the Vajra caught in the middle.

That could be a really awesome finale, and I can see how they could wrap it up in the next few episodes.

Most likely ending ever...

Btw... I'm worried by

the lack of references to Ozma and Cathy in the summaries for episodes 23 and 24 (Just like what happened to Michael before)... Could this mean that Leon finally gets them killed in Ep 22? It could explain why the fleet arrives at the Vajra "Star" just according to the plans of Leon and Grace...

I hope I'm wrong... :unsure:

Edited by Kronnang Dunn
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He steals his fighter? I guess it can well be that he´ll get shot down this episode, if the preview of last week was any indication.

And why the preview of last week was an indication of that? I don't remember seeing Ozma in it... :blink:

Edited by Kronnang Dunn
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