Moderation of fanart

[wolfx]

This topic is in regards to the closure of the "The Clan of Klan" thread which showcases Klan Klan's, (a character from Macross Frontier) fan art. The thread was closed because i linked to an image showing Klan Klan crying as she sits, with blood stains on her skirt and on a young Michel supposedly for crude comedic relief. The image itself is not explicit but because a mod felt it was a sensitive topic to touch upon (as it implies Klan's 1st menstual cycle) has decided to close the whole thread down to curb any further discussion on the topic. Note that the image was linked and not shown on the forum.

I personally think it unfair to close a thread based on that post without any prior warning. The mod has claimed that "a line was crossed" when there actually is no visible line implied as all warnings to postings of fanart to the said thread were warnings against pictures that were "too sexy" or of explicit nature. A warning and perhaps deletion of the "offending post" would have sufficed. I am aware that sterner action could've been taken like banning me from the forums or something, but glad that the mods didn't.

Thus I suggest the thread be reopened and a set of guidelines be set by board admins so that members can follow them and threads won't be closed/moderated by overzealous moderators. It would seem that now members have to post their images to a mod for "approval" before posting on the thread so as not to offend any moderators which might take action. This is completely unnecessary on a board which generally posts wisely.

I feel guilty that my actions alone have inconvenienced other board members so I hope the admins will look into this matter.

Good day.

Edited June 4, 2008 by wolfx

[MisaForever]

As the creator of the thread, I feel I am somewhat responsible for not having been more careful about what should have been allowed. While not a mod, I should have made sure that things didn't get out of control so that we could all enjoy the thread without risk of things happening like they did. I appreciate wolfx's words but I think we all need to know exactly what is and isn't allowed and that future thread like The Clan of Klan should be allowed.

[JsARCLIGHT]

To address the concerns of those interested in the thread, it was determined by the staff that this thread would remain closed for a little while as a sort of "cooling off period". We wish the thread to remain open, but at the same time we have been presented with an unusual set of circumstances that the staff must address.

First, let me start out by saying that MW values the contributions of fan artists to our wonderful site and many members, both normal and staff alike, enjoy the fan art we see here. However in order for this site to be "accessible" to all Macross fans of all genders, ages and creeds we must enforce a "PG-13" rating across the board on all content visible and accessible from this site. Simply because an item is not directly "shown" here does not mean it is not still "accessible" to everyone. Placing "warnings" or "cautions" in no way limits the accessibility of that item nor does it shield this site from any potential fallout from those things linked.

As such, this site has always maintained a policy of not allowing links, direct or indirect, to materials that do not conform to a "PG-13" rating. I think a good way to know yourself what is "over the line" is if you feel you need to warn people before posting. If you yourself think there is even a small chance someone will be offended then you probably should not be posting it. Another rule of thumb that every American media company abides by is that "all models must be 18 or older", meaning if you are posting a picture of a person or character that is or appears to be under the age of 18 and it is even remotely sexual in nature then you probably shouldn't.

Speaking frankly, this whole "Klan Klan" thing in Macross Frontier has put the staff in a very awkward and precarious position. You basically have a dramatically over the top buxom sex symbol who turns into a prepubescent girl and back again. You have to admit that that opens the floodgates for a potential of "wrong" to come flowing out. With that said, we the staff have to be extra careful about what gets posted here in regard to this topic. The precarious precipice of what is and what isn't slipping into the realm of what could be considered by some to be child pornography and inappropriate materials is pretty darn sharp. Which means we the staff and you the members have to err on the side of discretion with this issue. You have to think of our position, we have to enforce the PG-13 while at the same time allowing artists to express themselves... which means there may be things we feel are way out of bounds that you may not. But you are going to have to trust us, we are not trying to narc your buzz, we are trying to keep this site off of the FBI's check sheets and parent group hate lists.

So for the time being, think it over. If you think your art is close to the line then ask a mod before posting it. We will give you the benefit of the doubt and let you know so no one gets in trouble and nothing has to "go down". Because let's all face it, we all know when something is going to upset someone else or has the potential to upset someone else. Also this is not meant to be a threat but the staff is unanimous in our feelings that people who violate this delicate agreement will be banned. We see any willful posting of inappropriate materials, either direct or linked, to be in violation of site rules. We are trying to be as lenient as possible giving folks an "out" to confirm materials with us before posting them if in doubt but we have to keep a "lid" on the slippery slope with this.

So let's keep it PG13 so everyone can enjoy the art.

[Mr March]

I totally understand the rules, but it's a shame us older fans don't have a place. Maybe that's something next on the list for those brave souls willing to make more Macross fan sites. Hint, hint, nudge nudge

[jenius]

MacrossNexus to be reborn as MacrossNeXXXus?

[Dante74]

MacrossNexus to be reborn as MacrossNeXXXus?

Lol! Maybe we could relocate the site to a server in Amsterdam.

[Mr March]

Comedy gold That's not really what I meant

[EXO]

Actually... that reminds me... you guys can restart the thread at Animepunch.com. There's even a VIP section for over 18 crap.

http://animepunch.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10660

[Hurin]

MacrossNexus to be reborn as MacrossNeXXXus?

It would be a cold day in hell.

I have yet to speak (or post) to anyone on this issue publicly or privately. Therefore, I have had no influence over how this is being handled and I don't intend to get involved in the future. But, for the record, were the thread in question to have been on MacrossNexus, it would have been shut down long ago or been much more heavily moderated and. . . yes. . . censored.

As a society, we "censor" things every day. Censorship isn't always and everywhere a bad thing despite the negative connotations attached to the word by our popular media and culture. We don't allow hardcore porn on NBC at three in the afternoon. We don't put advertisements for Jack Daniels in the midst of Saturday morning cartoons. That's censorship. It's just censorship that 99% of the population supports.

But, this isn't my site. And I don't care to get involved in this issue beyond disabusing some of the notion (even if it was only said in jest) that MacrossNexus would have condoned or embraced some of the more disturbing aspects and issues that have arisen in the aforementioned thread. Quite the contrary.

[Dante74]

Actually... that reminds me... you guys can restart the thread at Animepunch.com. There's even a VIP section for over 18 crap.

http://animepunch.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10660

Yeah but you first need to get over 200 posts and ask if you can join, right? Doesn't matter anyway, I mostly lurk on AP and check the hot or not thread.(best thread on the interweb)

[EXO]

Yeah but you first need to get over 200 posts and ask if you can join, right? Doesn't matter anyway, I mostly lurk on AP and check the hot or not thread.(best thread on the interweb)

have you even seen the cosplay thread???

lol.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Suffice it to say, AnimePunch has kind of become like that dingy back alley behind the school near the trash cans where Macross World's long haired rabble congregate between classes to smoke, throw their switchblades into the ground and practice their bad beatnik poetry.

But in all seriousness EXO is correct. AP has several private areas that allow for looser rules. Especially that VIP area... for some reason I remember the whole "One Night in Bangcock" Murray Head riff whenever I wander into there.

[misterryno]

Suffice it to say, AnimePunch has kind of become like that dingy back alley behind the school near the trash cans where Macross World's long haired rabble congregate between classes to smoke, throw their switchblades into the ground and practice their bad beatnik poetry.

But in all seriousness EXO is correct. AP has several private areas that allow for looser rules. Especially that VIP area... for some reason I remember the whole "One Night in Bangcock" Murray Head riff whenever I wander into there.

Hmmmmm.......long hair......switchblades......smoking...............behind a school ......sounds like my kind of place.

[EXO]

for some reason I remember the whole "One Night in Bangcock" Murray Head riff whenever I wander into there.

I get my kicks above the waistline, sunshine!

[wolfx]

I don't see how discussion about migrating to another board is helping this. We're talking about a thread in macrossworld, not macrossnexus or animepunch. Or is this a subtle way to tell ppl "if you don't like it here, get out!!" ?

I'm now aware that i should treat MW as if i'm posting in a church forum, where everything is nice and white. So i should be more careful with what I post. I get the point already.

So to be fair to the non-wrong-doing-Klan-fans, could the mods re-open the thread soon or at least give a date on when its going to be reopened?

Edited June 5, 2008 by wolfx

[Roy Focker]

Soon

A Church forum? That's a little extreme isn't?

Hmm so let me see if I understand correctly we have either Church or Disturbing Bleeding panty drawings of little girls?

Is there nothing in between that?

Let me make this clear. As along it is not explicit/vulgar drawings of adult looking Characters are okay. When it comes to child looking characters they can't be shown even a slightly suggestive manner. Whether for humor or not it isn't allowed.

[wolfx]

Soon

A Church forum? That's a little extreme isn't?

Hmm so let me see if I understand correctly we have either Church or Disturbing Bleeding panty drawings of little girls?

Is there nothing in between that?

Let me make this clear. As along it is not explicit/vulgar drawings of adult looking Characters are okay. When it comes to child looking characters they can't be shown even a slightly suggestive manner. Whether for humor or not it isn't allowed.

I don't really wanna argue with you since i'm in no position to...but that is your opinion if you feel that a girl who has reached puberty as "disturbing".

And IIRC no panties were shown. It was just the skirt.

Or maybe i just come from an Asian background where we actually educate our kids about this so we don't see this as a taboo issue that Americans will demonise and think as explicit? (Sorry to jab at the Americans but this whole fiasco seem to be due to fear of FBIs and overall paranoia over the whole paedophilia thing recently)

Or maybe you viewed the image differently that Klan did not reach puberty but someone pointed out to me, that maybe Michel did something indecent to her? You'll have to get someone to translate the japanese text on the image to be sure.

To me now it seems more like a clash of cultures. To be safe, i'll go with church-like postings.

G'day.

Edited June 5, 2008 by wolfx

[Master Dex]

I think I see where you are coming from wolfx. I'm no mod of course, but I'd like to give an opinion since I was there and saw the image. I believe the point the mods and such are trying to get across is we must understand that while some people, or some cultures may find something such as that to be perfectly normal or ok, there are some whether it be an individual or a culture that will find something like that offensive or wrong.

I'm not really speaking for myself though, I'm looking at the bigger picture. I am a born and raised American, but I in fact had no problem with the image at all, but I can see why some people might. My actual comment on the image itself was just a light hearted and joking "Ewwww " which didn't really mean anything, it was just what popped into my head first. It didn't disgust me at all, hence the emoticon used to show I was joking. Thing is though, that is just my opinion. There were posts in there of people saying they thought the image was wrong and that is just their belief. So in light of that, it's probably best to keep away from things even some people might not like.

As for my opinion on what the image was actually supposed to be showing, well I thought of it a couple ways before I really decided what it was supposed to be showing. In the end I saw it as being designed for comedic purposes and that took out anything that might have made in disturbing to me. However I can see why people might think it was some disturbing shot of Mikhail doing something wrong as he is also shown with the blood on him, the first thing that makes one think of isn't always innocent. However I can also see how it is simply showing Klan reaching puberty and Mikhail was just in the wrong place at the wrong time (or something to that effect).

[wolfx]

I think I see where you are coming from wolfx. I'm no mod of course, but I'd like to give an opinion since I was there and saw the image. I believe the point the mods and such are trying to get across is we must understand that while some people, or some cultures may find something such as that to be perfectly normal or ok, there are some whether it be an individual or a culture that will find something like that offensive or wrong.

I have no problems with this and admit it was folly on my part. I just wish the mod in question won't keep branding me as a deviant when i'm trying to make things right earnestly.

[Dante74]

have you even seen the cosplay thread???

lol.

Sure have, but the hot or not thread has a sort of amateur fibe to it that I can really appreciate.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Dante74

[JsARCLIGHT]

Cultures aside, the underlying issue to all of this is that Macross World is a western fansite based on servers inside the United States and as such those servers come under the direct influence, affect and scope of US laws as well as western sensibilities. "Western" sensibilities in this sense err on the side of "safe" and cautious for the most part, they lean towards the politically correct so that everyone can enjoy things evenly and without incident. We all have to realize that this website isn't just one big room full of "like minded" (barely) adult men... this site is intended to be open to all people of all ages and sensibilities. As such the site and it's content has to conform with some regulations that some people may find "excessive", but this in no way is "heavy censorship" or "jack booted repression". At the same time we are not asking people to adopt some kind of squeaky clean churchmouse demeanor. All we ask is that things are kept PG13... PG13 is a far cry from churchmouse.

As I said earlier the membership has to understand the staff's uncomfortable position in all of this... it is our job to make sure everyone has fun and gets along but at the same time it is our job to ensure that nothing occurs on this site that could damage the site or it's benefactors legally or criminally. At times this means we will have to clamp down on certain things. Because all it takes in today's world is one parent seeing their 12 year old kid surfing risqué pictures of "cartoon children" in compromised conditions for the whole world to come crashing down on us. The western media at large still to this day has a very skewed view of what "anime" fandom is about and stuff like this just feeds more fuel into their fire that we are all sick, depraved individuals who like "tentacle porn" and pictures "underage girls menstruating". If this was a private forum that was closed to the general public and had control over who got in and who saw what then it could easily be seen that "questionable" materials would be allowed but as it stands we have to think of everybody else, not just ourselves and our own sensibilities.

But the salient point to all of this is that much like the world in general Macross World is one huge community comprised of many peoples from many different cultures. In order for us all to get along we all have to make concessions in some areas. Because what flies in Kuala Lumpur doesn't always fly in Boca Raton and vice versa. We have to strive to join together in the areas we all can agree upon and enjoy that don't bother or upset other people. If this means we have to omit one questionable picture out of ten perfectly acceptable ones, then so be it.

Edit: We are also not trying to drive people to other message boards either, EXO was simply stating the existence of another site which happens to be staffed and frequented by a lot of Macross World people which has allowances for a looser code of conduct through the use of special restricted access "members only" areas.

[misterryno]

wolfx,

I understand fully what you are saying in all of this. I can see where the mods are coming from as well with the "child seeing child and parents seeing child seeing child" stuff as well. My personal feelings are that the post just should have been deleted and a warning be issued. NOT that the thread be closed. It was a bit much to do that.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Once again you have to see things from our vantage point. We the staff had no clue how to address this "issue" and we needed time to talk amongst ourselves to sort this out. This was not a problem that one single moderator could unilaterally address. As folks have no doubt figured out this "issue" is a really, really large one for members of the staff. The thread was closed simply to stem the "snowballing" of the issue until we had a chance to go over some things and develop a decent course of action that was fair to all parties involved.

As it has been said the thread will be reopened or unlocked in some form shortly. It is currently in a "cooling off" phase. We are not going out of our way to "lock down the playground", we just want to make sure this issue is handled as delicately as we can as well as making sure the membership understand our concern over this issue.

[misterryno]

Once again you have to see things from our vantage point. We the staff had no clue how to address this "issue" and we needed time to talk amongst ourselves to sort this out. This was not a problem that one single moderator could unilaterally address. As folks have no doubt figured out this "issue" is a really, really large one for members of the staff. The thread was closed simply to stem the "snowballing" of the issue until we had a chance to go over some things and develop a decent course of action that was fair to all parties involved.

As it has been said the thread will be reopened or unlocked in some form shortly. It is currently in a "cooling off" phase. We are not going out of our way to "lock down the playground", we just want to make sure this issue is handled as delicately as we can as well as making sure the membership understand our concern over this issue.

Hmmmm......I do see.......thanks for restating that for me.

[Mr March]

I've never been shy voicing my distaste for the family friendly policy of Macross World. It's by far one of the few mature anime fandoms on the net largely consisting of older members. But Macross World has never been a good middle ground either, with all due respect. It's always been more than a little stifling in here. As far as the general immaturity on the boards, my opinion is we reap what we sow. The damage control as is does nothing to deal with it and we all maintain a comfortable level of condescending disgust

Having said all that, I understand the policies here at MacrossWorld and I accept them. I've simply decided to go elsewhere for discussion that isn't PC by proxy. This is one reason among many why I've always supported more Macross fan sites, which I'm sure everyone is tired of hearing me repeat. I understand that Macross World can't be everything to every fan and that's why I've accepted it and stayed. Macross World is a fine corner of the internet and I'm thankful to both Shawn and Graham for the site (and enduring opinionated members like myself, lol . But like I said, a little variety sure would be nice

[Dante74]

So an invite only VIP section like on AP isn't an option for MW?

[misterryno]

So an invite only VIP section like on AP isn't an option for MW?

It sounds like a good idea to me.

[EXO]

No. Not for MW. I didn't want a VIP at AP either but I lost that one. But MW focuses on Macross fandom. Be grateful that we at least get the Other Anime ans SciFi section.

[Hurin]

It sounds like a good idea to me.

Would you feel the same way if you weren't invited to the "invite only" area?

[Dante74]

On second thought, it would be kinda hard to keep up with all the double threads. Thread of B.O.I.N.G. on the normal forums and a thread of B.O.I.N.G. XXX edition on the VIP forums. Too confusing.

[Hurin]

No. Not for MW. I didn't want a VIP at AP either but I lost that one. But MW focuses on Macross fandom. Be grateful that we at least get the Other Anime ans SciFi section.

Amen. It's a recipe for even worse cliques, factionalization, and people feeling entitled to post questionable material.

[misterryno]

Would you feel the same way if you weren't invited to the "invite only" area?

I sure would.

[misterryno]

Amen. It's a recipe for even worse cliques, factionalization, and people feeling entitled to post questionable material.

That's a good point.

[misterryno]

On second thought, it would be kinda hard to keep up with all the double threads. Thread of B.O.I.N.G. on the normal forums and a thread of B.O.I.N.G. XXX edition on the VIP forums. Too confusing.

It would be HARD Just kidding.....it would be hard to keep track of though for sure....I have a hard enough time remembering which posts I have already posted to and which ones I have'nt.

[EXO]

My personal feeling is that the animes should set the guidelines for the forums. I don't think the cartoons are blatant but they do insinuate a lot. And if the fans and members can distinguish the difference then it would be easier to know what is acceptable. And apart from the Minmay shower scene, I think it doesn't go any further than any panty shots. And those shots don't have camel toes, blood or anything that nears explicit. But again, those are my personal feelings and not the website's. As of now, it's PG-13 and nothing more. I pretty much agree with Mr. March about the policies and the acceptance of the policies.