Does Macross need a retcon?

[dreamweaver13]

You Homotech Terrorist!!!

EAT THIS:

AND THIS:

OR MAYBE THIS:

Feel the pain!!!

Arg!! no matter how much you shoot me.... "We will win!!!"

hahaha. ok, i think only a sniper shot to the head from mikael will work at this point.

Edited May 22, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[ComicKaze]

Had the Macross fallen in 1999 then the World`s media outlets would suddenly be very interested in an old Japanese cartoon that predicted the whole thing.

had the Macross fallen in 1999, I'd sell all my posessions and move to South Ataria Island...either that or dig a really deep hole and stock a shelter for what I knew was going to happen in the next year.

[ComicKaze]

Arg!! no matter how much you shoot me.... "We will win!!!"

hahaha. ok, i think only a sniper shot to the head from mikael will work at this point.

Hey Mikael, "Look Up! Look Up! The sky is falling!!!"

Edited May 22, 2008 by ComicKaze

[lord_breetai]

But if people really want justification for there being no mobile phones in SDF-1, well... with all the construction technology the macross citizens were so adept at, it just so happened that not a single one of them had any idea how to put up a celsite/cel tower. so long celphones.

Actually you got it all wrong, the reason is that UMTS/HSPDA signals in the 2100 Mhz bandwidth used in Asia interfered with several key systems on the SDF-1 and thus were forbidden... in their place the robot phones were developed as a way you could track someone down with a phone because they worked on another technology and another frequency.

[d3v]

had the Macross fallen in 1999, I'd sell all my posessions and move to South Ataria Island...either that or dig a really deep hole and stock a shelter for what I knew was going to happen in the next year.

Had the ASS-1 fallen in 1999, I'd have grown my hair, dyed it blue and changed my name to Maximillian Jenius, this way I know I'll be shacking it up with a fine looking green haired meltran ace in a couple of years.

[dreamweaver13]

Had the ASS-1 fallen in 1999, I'd have grown my hair, dyed it blue and changed my name to Maximillian Jenius, this way I know I'll be shacking it up with a fine looking green haired meltran ace in a couple of years.

FTW!!!

[Graham]

Azreal wrote:

Agreed. For instance this guy wrote:

Now come on! Everyone knows that modern technology was reverse engineered from Megatron! duh!

VFTF1

What, you mean reverse engineered from a Walther P-38 9mm pistol?

Graham

[dreamweaver13]

Actually you got it all wrong, the reason is that UMTS/HSPDA signals in the 2100 Mhz bandwidth used in Asia interfered with several key systems on the SDF-1 and thus were forbidden... in their place the robot phones were developed as a way you could track someone down with a phone because they worked on another technology and another frequency.

Actually, everytime there's a transformation of Macross, a voice over the intercom announces: "May we please remind you to turn of all cellular phones and other similar devices. The operation of these devices could affect the Macross' complicated machinery, and could ultimately lead to our total annhilation... "

so YES, it is time to develop robot phones!! and place one on each commercial aircraft, so that we don't have to worry about people talking on their celphones during a flight.

[Kronnang Dunn]

Had the ASS-1 fallen in 1999

With todays disinformation... who tells u it didn't?

Edited May 22, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[d3v]

With todays disinformation... who tells u it didn't?

Thr name change papers are being processed as we speak.

[Morpheus]

So far the only retcon I can think of is the explanation of the different ship type for the Meltran. In the TV series, the Meltran use standard Zentran warships while in DYRL they use their own design. The Meltran design also appear in VFX-2 and Mac7 Fleet of The Strongest Woman.

Don't make me start with the pilot uniform

[dreamweaver13]

Thr name change papers are being processed as we speak.

just make sure to practice fighting with a short knife. otherwise, all your efforts will eventually be useless.

Edited May 22, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[dreamweaver13]

So far the only retcon I can think of is the explanation of the different ship type for the Meltran. In the TV series, the Meltran use standard Zentran warships while in DYRL they use their own design. The Meltran design also appear in VFX-2 and Mac7 Fleet of The Strongest Woman.

Don't make me start with the pilot uniform

It's a movie! and sadly, they just didn't get the costumes right. reportedly, the DYRL movie failed to win the Oscar (at that time it was called the Minmei) for best costume design coz the judges felt that they just weren't historically accurate enough.

Edited May 22, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[VFTF1]

I just want to note that I love it when people ask seemingly silly questions like "Should Macross be retconed" or the like, because it leads to some interesting ideas and thoughts

That said - what would have happened if Macross HAD been retconed?

I ask as a Transformers fan who lamments the fact that for all intents and purposes ("multiverse" theories aside), Transformers has no cannon any longer. In fact; the story has been in stand still since Beast Machines. NOTHING new - concept wise - has come out; it's all now just an never ending retcon

I am soooo happy Macross has retained canonical structure. This is extremely important. The most long lasting sagas that are the most loved are the ones that are unique and not rehashed a million times.

Star Wars is a good example of this, as are Alien or other similar films.

Anyways - I don't want Macross retconed and "done better" - I like it as is.

DYRL could - by some stretch of the imagination - be considered a "retcon" of SDFM TV, but I think the notion of it being a docu-drama within SDF-M TV continuity fits quite well...

In either case - Kawamori's policy of no revisting certain aspects of past series is beneficial.

VFTF1

[grss1982]

Had the ASS-1 fallen in 1999, I'd have grown my hair, dyed it blue and changed my name to Maximillian Jenius, this way I know I'll be shacking it up with a fine looking green haired meltran ace in a couple of years.

Don't forget to custom paint your VF to the color BLUE.

ALSO brush up on your VF fighting, arcade gaming, AND knife fighting skills.

Edited May 22, 2008 by grss1982

[StrangeWill]

Had the ASS-1 fallen in 1999, I'd have grown my hair, dyed it blue and changed my name to Maximillian Jenius, this way I know I'll be shacking it up with a fine looking green haired meltran ace in a couple of years.

Ah I'd more be going along the lines of dying my hair green and bow down to our Zentradi overlords.

[VFTF1]

I would have been a Minmey groupy!

VFTF1

[grss1982]

Arg!! no matter how much you shoot me.... "We will win!!!"

hahaha. ok, i think only a sniper shot to the head from mikael will work at this point.

Anyways if events in Macross were to happen the same as ours would'nt it explain the retirement of the F-14's of the U.S. Navy.

If the events were to happen then for all we know somewhere in the Pacific the F-14 (modied into the F-14 Kai) could be in service with the U.N. Forces, battling the MiGs of the Anti-U.N.

As for the retcon, NO Macross does'nt need it. Its ok the way it is.

[d3v]

Anyways if events in Macross were to happen the same as ours would'nt it explain the retirement of the F-14's of the U.S. Navy.

If the events were to happen then for all we know somewhere in the Pacific the F-14 (modied into the F-14 Kai) could be in service with the U.N. Forces, battling the MiGs of the Anti-U.N.

If anything, the closest Macross has gotten to a retcon is Zero though it doesn't really change much.

[AlphaHX]

The only thing I felt like they couldve changed was the size of the VF-1. I still find it odd that its so much smaller than the other VFs.

[Zinjo]

Star Wars is a good example of this, as are Alien or other similar films.

VFTF1

, no seriously....

How about "Han shoots first"...

Then everyone's favorite, midichlorians (an all encompasing metaphisical power becomes microscopic bugs... )

A bit off topic, but that one really wasn't the best example of a canonical structured franchise.

The only thing I felt like they couldve changed was the size of the VF-1. I still find it odd that its so much smaller than the other VFs.

Yes and no. The VF-1 was the same size as an average Zentreadi without any mecha. The VF-19 actually began to address the size difference between a Zentreadi foot soldier and a Zentreadi mecha.

The VF-1 was also a product of OTEC where it is common that as something becomes more advanced, the smaller it becomes. The original cell phone was the size of a kid's shoe and all it could do was make phone calls. Compare that to a Blackberry or an Iphone today....

[DestroidDefender]

Transformers has no cannon any longer.

Really? Most of them seem to carry some type of really big gun....

Okay, I'm a smart ASS-1. You mean canon.

[Mr March]

Not all the variable fighters are larger than the VF-1. The VF-4 Lightning III (14.92 meters) is pretty much the same size as the VF-1 (14.23 meters). The VF-5000 Star Mirage is actually smaller than both (14.03 meters long). And in Battroid mode, the VF-1 (12.68 meters tall) is almost the exact same height as the VF-11 Thunderbolt (12.92 meters tall).

When you think about it, it's really only the third generation variable fighters that got really big (YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur, YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II, VF-17 Nightmare).

[Mr March]

Yes and no. The VF-1 was the same size as an average Zentreadi without any mecha.

No, they weren't. The VF-1 Valkyries have always been taller than the average Zentradi. Only Britai and Bodolzaa matched the height of a VF. See chart:

http://www.new-un-spacy.com/scalecharts/sizechart-1.gif

[the white drew carey]

Then everyone's favorite, midichlorians (an all encompasing metaphisical power becomes microscopic bugs... )

Not that I'm defending it, but the Force is still the Force. The midichlorians are what allows other creatures to sense it, they aren't IT. Qui-Gon clearly explains this, you know.

[Noyhauser]

The only thing I felt like they couldve changed was the size of the VF-1. I still find it odd that its so much smaller than the other VFs.

Ugh... for the last time...

The VF-1 is not so much smaller than any other fighter. ITs smaller, probably because its a first generation thermonuclear engined variable fighter. Lets do a little comparison.

(IOS) Type: Length - Wingspan - Empty Mass

(2010) VF-1: 14.23m - 14.87m - 13250 kg

(2012) VF-4: 14.92m - 14.28m - 13950 kg

(2018) VF-5000:14.03m - (N/A) - 8300 kg

(2030) VF-11: 15.51m - 11.2m - 9000 kg

(2035) VF-17: 15.63M - 14.18m - 11850 kg

(2041) VF-19A: 18.62m - 14.87m - 8750 kg

(2045) VF-22: 19.62m - 15.36m - 9550 kg

So you see a progressive increase in size as well as a lowering of weight. The VF-1 is not out of size compared to its contemporaries, its smaller, but its not even the smallest; thats the VF-5000, the VF-1/VF-4 successor. The VF-1 is the start of a new generation of aircraft built on overtechnology. They are smaller, lighter, faster than their jet contemporaries. It has parallels with the start in the jet age... lets make another comparison:

(1949) F-86: 11.4m - 11.3m - 5046 kg

(1954) F-100: 15.2m - 11.81m - 9500 kg

(1960) F-4: 19.2m - 11.7m - 13757 kg

(1976) F-15C: 19.43m - 13.05m - 12700 kg

(2006) F-22: 18.90 m - 13.56m - 14365 kg

So you see a similar progression in size and weight as the UNS Fighters over the years Now lets make one final comparison, the VF-0

(2008) VF-0 18.69 m - (N/A) - 16191 kg

The Comparison of the VF-0 after the modern fighters is deliberate: it is closer akin to them in design than the Variable fighters. Its a jet fighter: it has a jet engine, with jet fuel, meaning its going to be larger than its thermonuclear engined counterparts. The VF-1 is the start of a new generation of fighters, and its size is not out of the ordinary. So the VF-1 is not out of size or different. Its actually remarkably consistent.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Noyhauser

[VFTF1]

Ugh... for the last time...

The VF-1 is not so much smaller than any other fighter. ITs smaller, probably because its a first generation thermonuclear engined variable fighter. Lets do a little comparison.

(IOS) Type: Length - Wingspan - Empty Mass

(2010) VF-1: 14.23m - 14.87m - 13250 kg

(2012) VF-4: 14.92m - 14.28m - 13950 kg

(2018) VF-5000:14.03m - (N/A) - 8300 kg

(2030) VF-11: 15.51m - 11.2m - 9000 kg

(2035) VF-17: 15.63M - 14.18m - 11850 kg

(2041) VF-19A: 18.62m - 14.87m - 8750 kg

(2045) VF-22: 15.36m - 19.62m - 9550 kg

So you see a progressive increase in size as well as a lowering of weight. The VF-1 is not out of size compared to its contemporaries, its smaller, but its not even the smallest; thats the VF-5000, the VF-1/VF-4 successor. The VF-1 is the start of a new generation of aircraft built on overtechnology. They are smaller, lighter, faster than their contemporaries. It has parallels with the start in the jet age... lets watch.

(1949) F-86: 11.4m - 11.3m - 5046 kg

(1954) F-100: 15.2m - 11.81m - 9500 kg

(1960) F-4: 19.2m - 11.7m - 13757 kg

(1976) F-15C: 19.43m - 13.05m - 12700 kg

(2006) F-22 - 18.90 m - 13.56m - 14365 kg

So you see a similar progression in size and weight as the UNS Fighters over the years Now lets make one final comparison, the VF-0

(2008) VF-0 18.69 m - (N/A) - 16191 kg

The Comparison of the VF-0 after the modern fighters is deliberate: it is closer akin to them in design than its later fighters. Its a jet fighter: it has a jet engine, with jet fuel, meaning its going to be larger than its thermonuclear engined counterparts. The VF-1 is the start of a new generation of fighters, and its size is not out of the ordinary. So the VF-1 is not out of size or different. Its actually remarkably consistent.

Yeah. That's all well and good, but don't you think the VF-1 is a bit small?

**WHAPP!!!*** OWW! :)

Err...sorry...

anyways - I would like to ask the question no one seems to be asking:

Do you think this thread needs to be retconed?

VFTF1

[AlphaHX]

I was actually fine with it until Macross Zero.

Maybe I should rephrase. I still find it odd that the VF-0 and the VF-1 has such a significant size difference. I'm not looking for some logical explanation for why its a different size. It just urks me when having a VF-0 & VF-1 same scale model or toy side by side. In either battroid or fighter, the VF-0 is imho, significantly bigger.

I guess it urks me more than the other VFs cuz I see the VF-0 as a VF-1 prototype to a certain degree. I just find it odd. To me, its like making the VF-19/22 significantly bigger than the YF-19/21.

[Noyhauser]

Even if the VF-0 was a prototype, it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the size difference. The VF-0 is a conventional engined fighter the VF-1 is a thermonuclear fighter. the VF-0 has a limited supply of fuel (which it must carry) meaning its got to be much larger than the VF-1 which has no such constraints. The fuel constraints also mean that the fighter needs to be more efficient (read aerodynamic) so that it gets better range. The VF-1 doesn't, it can fly for days on end so its less bothered by such constraints. Only in later fighters does aerodynamics become a greater concern, probably because designers now moved to squeeze every inch of performance when faced with incremental increases in technology.

Moreover its made apparent that the VF-1's engine is much smaller (probably the reason why they needed extra time to perfect it.)

Edited May 22, 2008 by Noyhauser

[AlphaHX]

Even if the VF-0 was a prototype, it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the size difference. The VF-0 is a conventional engined fighter the VF-1 is a thermonuclear fighter. the VF-0 has a limited supply of fuel (which it must carry) meaning its got to be much larger than the VF-1 which has no such constraints. The fuel constraints also mean that the fighter needs to be more efficient (read aerodynamic) so that it gets better range. The VF-1 doesn't, it can fly for days on end so its less bothered by such constraints. Only in later fighters does aerodynamics become a greater concern, probably because designers now moved to squeeze every inch of performance when faced with incremental increases in technology.

Moreover its made apparent that the VF-1's engine is much smaller (probably the reason why they needed extra time to perfect it.)

I guess I'll reiterate myself since I feel like I'm getting misunderstood...

First off, once again, I'm not looking for a logical explanation for why theres a size difference.

Second of all, I never said it was wrong, or unexplained, or have no logic to it, or anything along that line so please don't assume I said these things.

Well, hopefully thats pretty clear this time.

Anyways, our focus of consistency is just different, thats all. In my eyes, I see the VF-0 and the VF-1 to be in a series which I would like it to have a consistency of size which imho is significantly different.

I'm not saying theres no good logical explanation... and btw, thank you Noyhauser to point those explanations out. I was actually already aware of the explanations but thank you nevertheless. Any information is always appreciated.

So like I said before, its just odd to me and thats why I suggested it. So please dont misunderstand. Even being fully aware of the explanations I still for one would still like it to be changed. Just an opinion.

I'm sorry if youve heard this topic one too many times but I myself have not participated in such a thread but please dont make it sound as if I personally bring this topic frequently. This is my first time I've brought this up so I'm sorry if this is a beating the dead horse topic.

[Mr March]

But that's the point AlphaHX, the VF-0 never was a VF-1 prototype. It was a larger, less expensive and more inefficient variable fighter specifically created as a test bed or proof-of-concept craft. They would test various OverTechnologies in craft like the VF-0 before they were refined for inclusion into more streamlined final production models, like the VF-1. In fact, I expect the VF-0 would be larger craft particularly because it required much larger conventional engines to power it, unlike the VF-1's far more powerful and efficient reaction engines.

I think I may understand your "feelings" about the Valkyries. Perhaps you just have an expectation that they grow larger over a linear progression and the VF-0 feels anachronistic to you. Or perhaps it's another reason that skews your interpretation of how the Valkyries should be. Regardless, sizes change over time, even in the real world. I don't think Macross should be any different. Look at the weight of the Valkyries. They start at 13-14 tons, then drop to 8-10 tons then go up at times to 12-13 tons again.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Mr March

[AlphaHX]

But that's the point AlphaHX, the VF-0 never was a VF-1 prototype. It was a larger, less expensive and more inefficient variable fighter specifically created as a test bed or proof-of-concept craft. They would test various OverTechnologies in craft like the VF-0 before they were refined for inclusion into more streamlined final production models, like the VF-1. In fact, I expect the VF-0 would be larger craft particularly because it required much larger conventional engines to power it, unlike the VF-1's far more powerful and efficient reaction engines.

I think I may understand your "feelings" about the Valkyries. Perhaps you just have an expectation that they grow larger over a linear progression and the VF-0 feels anachronistic to you. Or perhaps it's another reason that skews your interpretation of how the Valkyries should be. Regardless, sizes change over time, even in the real world. I don't think Macross should be any different. Look at the weight of the Valkyries. They start at 13-14 tons, then drop to 8-10 tons then go up at times to 12-13 tons again.

Its not just my "feelings" about Valkyries. I know you didnt mean it offensively but it sounds like I have no basis of reasoning behind my focus of consistency and my view of the VF-0 and my regards of the VF-1. I understand the side of the canon explanation. But at this rate, it seems like as long as theres an official explanation, any suggestions that opposes it will pretty much get bombarded with hostility and canon facts. Why even discuss this if the answer to everything would just to be pointed to the Macross Compendium or another source of canon information? Since I'm assuming people here can be objective and I havent been pointed to Macross Compendium yet, I'll continue to explain myself...

As I said in my other post, our focus of consistency is just different. Thats all. It seems like your focus is on real world comparison. Which imo is extremely valid. I just value more of a consistency between similar aircrafts. The reason why I suggest the VF-1 size to be increased is because I felt it would be consistent (to me) if it was a similar size to the VF-0 and the F-14. My reasoning is that since the F-14 played a heavy influence in how the VF-1 looked which in turn influenced how the VF-0 looked, I feel that theyre in a series of similar aircrafts which logically to me, should be similar in size. I guess I should apologize for using the word prototype. It was the closests word I could find to describe a past influence of the current aircraft.

As far as different sizes go, I have no problem with the VF-5000, VF-4 or any of those other valks to be the size that they are. I never said I wanted all the sizes to be the same. I'm fine with different size aircrafts to meet real world circumstances.

[dreamweaver13]

Not that I'm defending it, but the Force is still the Force. The midichlorians are what allows other creatures to sense it, they aren't IT. Qui-Gon clearly explains this, you know.

[Ok it's OT i know, but i just can't resist asking, and since i really know little about star wars other than what's in the movies: so with that retcon, it means the only reason jedi and siths are special is because they happened to be infected by some kind of bugs? hence, when the force is passed on to the jedi's descendants, it just means that the infection was passed on along with the dna? wow, how's that for turning something glorious, into a genetic defect? oh well, i guess it's the same thing as being a mutant, in a sense.]

ok as for the in-topic discussion....

so....size does matter!

i've always seen the VF-1 as a grandaddy mecha. bad and powerful, but not as sleek and efficient enough to fight the impending alien invasion. and besides, it had an old engine. the best analogy i can think of is doc emmet brown's delorean in BTTF3. Since they didn't have microchips back in 1955, they had to build a big macrochip (or old engine) on the hood to take the place of a single microchip (or new thermonuclear engine). but if they had the microchip, then i'm sure they would have preferred to use it, coz it would be much easier to reach 88mph. am i making sense here, even just a little?

although, honestly, I didn't really notice that the VF-0 was significantly bigger than the VF-1 until it was discussed here.

Edited May 23, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[Mr March]

AlphaHX

Well that's all fine and dandy. I was only posting some canon figures that I thought would help. But it looks like there's baggage in this discussion that wasn't apparent to me before. I said "feelings" to avoid labeling your opinion as based on fact because you specifically didn't want your opinions described as such. Now you're not satisfied with either term, so in an attempt to accommodate you I'm now at a total loss.

I will say this much on my own behalf: the official Macross statistics are not trivial. Kawamori designed the Valkyries with certain weights and dimensions for a reason. He's an engineer, so he knows what it is he's doing. It's not like some third party came along years after and pulled numbers from nowhere just so Big West could add filler text to some Macross fan book. We fans may not be privy to the reasons why Kawamori made his Valkyries a certain size or weight but that doesn't make quoting his figures meaningless just because the exposition wasn't "animated" in the SDF Macross anime.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Mr March

[dreamweaver13]

Anyways if events in Macross were to happen the same as ours would'nt it explain the retirement of the F-14's of the U.S. Navy.

If the events were to happen then for all we know somewhere in the Pacific the F-14 (modied into the F-14 Kai) could be in service with the U.N. Forces, battling the MiGs of the Anti-U.N.

As for the retcon, NO Macross does'nt need it. Its ok the way it is.

whew! thanks bro, i needed that!

as for ASS-1, actually, myanmar has it now. it wasn't a cyclone. and that's why the myanmar government refuses to let rescue workers in, coz they might see it.

(that being said, if anyone is from myanmar, i am not taking your plight lightly. I pray for the country's quick recovery, and the welfare of all affected citizens).