Macross Frontier Episode 6 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Mr March]

They are episode reviews, which I'm going to compile once the show is done and post on my website. I figure I'd post them for anyone interested. Just pass them over if you're not interested; no obligation to buy

[Bill C.]

Just thinking: Leon, the shifty-looking NUNS guy...is he likely to turn out to be evil in some way, or are they just screwing with our heads?

[wolfx]

You know, while I love looking at Klan Klan, I can't help but try to avoid this thread now since it seems half of you are doing nothing but complaining about the animation. Can we talk about aspects of the story? Characters? Plot? Anything except the quality of the animation? They're doing US a favor in making this show, can we stop crapping all over them?

Welcome to Macrossworld, where we argue about small hands and what not. Its worth pointing out that the animation is on a downward trend. Plot so far....is debatable. I see where chrono is coming from with his bitterness but i'm not that badly affected by it yet. For now it does seem like a fan-wank series where we fans will go "GAAA GAAA" after years deprived of a above subpar macross series. (That was since MacPlus?)

and I still can't believe you happily watch gundam 00 and then complain about the things you do about MF.

00 had characters that looked the same for 25 episodes without any loss of detail. The frame rates have also remained consistent throughout. Can't say the same with Frontier.

I can agree that because of how much Macross is revelled, it tends to be scrutinized more but still.... it's perfect in so many ways, to see people who call themselves "fans" raking it over the coals as you say is simply uncalled for.

Its because we are fans that we complain. What....you rather revell the show even if its bad like Trekkies do?

*escapes Trekkie lynch mob*

To be fair, the complaints aren't exactly unwarranted. Yes, the show remains gorgeous compared to a lot out there, but that's not to say the 2D animation hasn't been a little spotty in places. The directing, incredibly detailed backgrounds, and excellent (for a tv series) CG tend to pick up the slack of the lacking 2D work.

Also, fans tend to complain the loudest because they care the most. I doubt anyone complaining about the 2D animation in episode 6 is thinking, "Gee, if this animation doesn't pick up soon I'm going to stop watching!" They'd simply like the 2D to look a bit nicer. As much as I agree that people should enjoy something as great as Frontier, there's also merit in pointing out that it's really not perfect, and could be better. I realize a show needs to budget, but you can only let one aspect suffer so much before it's detrimental to the show as a whole, even if everything else looks spectacular. It's all about balance.

I still suspect, though, that this episode was done on the cheap to put more of the budget towards what is looking to be an action packed upside next week, or maybe even several action packed episodes. If that's the case, I can certainly live with that.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Its not like we whine for nothing.

no one is denying that the animation hasn't had problems... but problems worse than shows like GitS? Or Escaflowne? Or Gundam 00? Bad enough where we have to talk about it every episode? The animation in MF has been better than any of the animation for some current shows like Transformers or Spice and Wolf.

The animation problems have been pointed out and yeah, there's merit in that.. but does evrey other post need to be about the same thing? Over and over again?

I believe Graham and a whole lot of others were "huh...what animation problems? I see it as PERFECT".

And as for your examples of GITS, Escaflowne and 00, i don't see it. They are all right up there in terms art/animation and Frontier can't compare to them. If you wanna use a yardstick for good high quality, consistent animation/art, try Seirei No Moribito by Production I.G.

Spice and Wolf...ALSO had good consistent art and animation. Sure its not eye porn with fancy smancy effects and explosions, but at least Horo's tail looks the same level of bushiness in all 13 episodes and she remains moe in all 13 eps. We don't go "uhhh...Horo has weird eyes in episode 6". Frontier is 6 eps in and we see strange eyebrows and even variable breast sizes. ]

I hope you see where i'm getting at cuz i sure don't see what you're getting at about S&W and 00.

[Phil K]

Dude, 00's characters were ridiculously simple and under detailed compared to Frontier's cast. Hell, Sheryl's hair has a larger color pallete than the entire series.

[Mr March]

Omg, that's hilarious. Bit of an overstatement, but damn funny nonetheless

[eugimon]

Welcome to Macrossworld, where we argue about small hands and what not. Its worth pointing out that the animation is on a downward trend. Plot so far....is debatable. I see where chrono is coming from with his bitterness but i'm not that badly affected by it yet. For now it does seem like a fan-wank series where we fans will go "GAAA GAAA" after years deprived of a above subpar macross series. (That was since MacPlus?)

00 had characters that looked the same for 25 episodes without any loss of detail. The frame rates have also remained consistent throughout. Can't say the same with Frontier.

Its because we are fans that we complain. What....you rather revell the show even if its bad like Trekkies do?

*escapes Trekkie lynch mob*

Couldn't have said it better myself. Its not like we whine for nothing.

I believe Graham and a whole lot of others were "huh...what animation problems? I see it as PERFECT".

And as for your examples of GITS, Escaflowne and 00, i don't see it. They are all right up there in terms art/animation and Frontier can't compare to them. If you wanna use a yardstick for good high quality, consistent animation/art, try Seirei No Moribito by Production I.G.

Spice and Wolf...ALSO had good consistent art and animation. Sure its not eye porn with fancy smancy effects and explosions, but at least Horo's tail looks the same level of bushiness in all 13 episodes and she remains moe in all 13 eps. We don't go "uhhh...Horo has weird eyes in episode 6". Frontier is 6 eps in and we see strange eyebrows and even variable breast sizes. ]

I hope you see where i'm getting at cuz i sure don't see what you're getting at about S&W and 00.

Uh... yeah.. i can't take you seriously now. GitS had spotty animation on several episodes and Escaflowne used the same sketchy/fluid animation style during fight scenes that you guys are all complaining about in MF, even in the Movie. The ending of the movie had a wierd ass looking Van and hitomi and there's no way you can deny that.

Spice and Wolf was consistent... consistently sub par. Simple chracter designs and stiff animation.

And gundam 00? Talking/screaming heads for 70% of the time and battles consisting of nothing more than:

1. dynamic action pose!

2. screaming head shot

3. action lines around head

4. flying towards enemy in a static pose

5. cool posed shot of gundam while enemy falls apart, explodes.

Yeah.. I'll take a full season of episode 6 level quality over that dreck any day.

Sorry, but to me, you're sounding a lot like the anti-graham.. finding fault in everything unfairly.

No offense Graham.. but you do tend to see the positive in nearly everything Macross.

Edited May 13, 2008 by eugimon

[Zinjo]

A note about...cockpits

I think the most important reason why the wrap-around imaging monitor is not used in the VF-25 Fighter mode is likely cost. It's probably much cheaper to avoid animating the fighter cockpit because this is a television series after all and most of the time the characters will be shown on screen piloting the VF-25 in fighter mode. For an in-universe explanation, cost may also be a factor. The NUNS can afford to blow money on wrap-around imaging monitors for the VF-171 but a private company like SMS may look for the most practical piloting method that is also the most cost effective. The extensive internal holographics of the VF-25 cockpit seem more than adequate to assist the pilot in situational awareness and the wrap around imaging system is only really necessary for the Battroid mode. Course, this may be a stretch rationalizing this much, but it makes sense nonetheless.

Marchingupthewrongtree, I have to disagree with respect to cost. If Cellphones have holo-emitters, then a state of the art cockpit could. However, I think you may be overlooking size. The VF-25 cockpits are quite snug, thus the feasibility of wrap around imaging in such a small space is pointless if the pilot can't really utilize it. If it would be found anywhere it would be by the foot peddals so the pilot could have an underside view of his environment.

[Sergorn]

no one is denying that the animation hasn't had problems... but problems worse than shows like GitS? Or Escaflowne? Or Gundam 00? Bad enough where we have to talk about it every episode? The animation in MF has been better than any of the animation for some current shows like Transformers or Spice and Wolf.

Yeah I agree. I mean I watch a lot of anime - and while there are a few exceptions, but pretty much all anime series will have some episodes that will look better than others - so that's why I'll hardly notice that kind of stuff, I'm used to it. Macross Frontier is no different in that respect... however I don't think I've ever seen such amount of nitpicking about that

And I said I don't see any problem with the animation per se in episode 6, just the art. There are some shots that looks "meh" but then they don't look *awful* either (Max/Milia knife fight this is not). Actually I'd say how uneven it all is actually, because there are shots that looks gorgeous, followed by blatantly inferior ones. That's also why they kind of seems to stick out like sore thumb.

-Sergorn

[MisaForever]

They are episode reviews, which I'm going to compile once the show is done and post on my website. I figure I'd post them for anyone interested. Just pass them over if you're not interested; no obligation to buy

I didn't say anything about not being interested, I just wondered why you were doing it. Makes sense now. Keep it up.

[MisaForever]

I'm just an optimistic person by nature so I tend to see the good in things more than the bad. If a show excites me, I stick with it. I don't find the bad points and spew them out in a thread for pages on end. There's no point. People saying this art is bad or it looks terrible isn't going to change anything in the show. They've already decided how they're going to do it so complaining does absolutely no good and only makes some of the others of us a bit irate.

[Duke Togo]

I believe Graham and a whole lot of others were "huh...what animation problems? I see it as PERFECT".

Not that Graham needs for me to speak for him or anything, but he thought the art & animation in episode 6 sucked.

[Jacques Deville]

I tend to think it is an experiment in Civilian defense should the Macross 25 be either separated from the City ship or destroyed. Mac 7 proved that the City was very vulnerable without its main battleship.

At the moment i see SMS as a real PMC who's been hired in this case to test the VF-25 in real combat, it's all about money.. I wonder who owns sms and who made the VF-25 , would be a nice add to the series if it would be an evil man who doesn't care about macross frontier at all, using Vajra to test the VF-25 but getting out of hand. (as what humans tried in starcraft with the zerg) Because the Vajra are not a creation of humans. Reminds me also of Zero

Pilots being concerned about macross frontier is like soldiers fighting for piece, but in the end, your serving another cause wich they don't fully understand. Ozma talking about protecting Frontier AND Kapitalism

Well, that's my point of view (speculation) on SMS

(please do no mind my spelling and grammar mistakes, trying my best)

[taksraven]

I noticed it. Why? Because the character designer designed the character that way.

If you want a better explanation than that well...uh....oookay.... Her eyes are like that due to a special technology discovered in...er...1842....by demons....used by crack law enforcement agencies to...er...I don't know....fight aliens?

Oh, come on. Its a pretty bloody weird character design element (we are not just talking about weird hair) and I think its a fair question. No need to take the piss like that.

Taksraven

[Duke Togo]

Its just a nod to the original series, I wouldn't look to much into it.

[Sergorn]

At the moment i see SMS as a real PMC who's been hired in this case to test the VF-25 in real combat, it's all about money.. I wonder who owns sms and who made the VF-25 ,

I vote for Mr. Bilrer

-Sergorn

[mikeszekely]

You know, while I love looking at Klan Klan, I can't help but try to avoid this thread now since it seems half of you are doing nothing but complaining about the animation.

Well, that and wanting to wait for a subbed episode before attempting to join in on any discussion, only to find 20+ pages of posts already, a quarter of which were made before a raw was even available. It's rough when you want to discuss plot points in an episode, but to do so you have to read a book's worth of text, sifting through the debate on animation quality to see if someone already brought up your point 10 pages ago.

[Bill C.]

That was inevitable the minute the DE hit, though...for better or worse.

[Mr March]

Uh... yeah.. i can't take you seriously now. GitS had spotty animation on several episodes and Escaflowne used the same sketchy/fluid animation style during fight scenes that you guys are all complaining about in MF, even in the Movie.

*is reminded of the episodes were Motoko looked like the toy doll version of herself*

As much as I love the show, GITS had more than it's fair share of animation lows as well

Well, that and wanting to wait for a subbed episode before attempting to join in on any discussion, only to find 20+ pages of posts already, a quarter of which were made before a raw was even available. It's rough when you want to discuss plot points in an episode, but to do so you have to read a book's worth of text, sifting through the debate on animation quality to see if someone already brought up your point 10 pages ago.

Ironic isn't it? I think maybe that's why some reacted strangely to my episodes reviews. This one came 21 pages into the episode discussion. But what can you do? I can't write a review about a show I don't understand. Such is life

[Kelsain]

This whole quality debate is one of the reasons I choose to wait for the subs before I watch an episode. It's easy to nitpick on the visuals when that's all you've got. Yes, the quality is kinda down on the characters, most notably KK - again. (and she look so cute last episode) When I'm engrossed in the story, I don't really notice it at all. I've noticed that a lot of the shots where the characters look more "cartoony" seem to be the comedic bits, anyway - ie the quiet sexual harassment discussion, or Ranka's reaction to her manager's over-the-top performance. I kind of accepted this as the style they were going for for these scenes. I see the discrepancies, but am not too bothered by them. Even the OVA's have their bad days, like parts of M+, vol 3.

ANYWHO... I thought it was a pretty good episode. Not really too much on the Ranka front for me, though I did like the cowpottamus jammies. Is that regular chocolate pocky, or has she raided Ozma's stash of men's pocky while he's away? Mmmm, men's pocky... Alto & Sheryl seem to be moving along swiftly - too swiftly - I expect things will swing back toward Ranka in the next 5 or 6 eps.

On Galaxy: it's interesting to see so much difference in the fleets now. Differences in laws and living conditions, as well as ship types and color shemes. Assuming the big red thing in the bg is Galaxy itself, is that smoke billowing out or is it carved out of an asteroid? Those yellow circle-y things remind me of the Megaroad class. As mentioned before, the Diaz-class whosits (orange ships) are rather reminiscent of Gepelnitch's ship - cool. And these green guys, circled in the attached pic - are those the Vajra ships seen in the preview for the next episode, or are they the winged Zentraedi ships seen in DYRL? Gah, why must they tease us so?

The Quarter needs to grow on me a bit more. I got the Whitebase vibe as well, mostly from its overall configuration. I do like the notion that the events of M7 may have resulted in a backup fortress being installed on the City ships.

Can't wait 'til next weekend for Ep7 with dialog!

*Sorry about the sentence format here - I've been typing this a little bit at a a time for the past half hour

Edited May 13, 2008 by Kelsain

[Duke Togo]

I hope we get a clear view of the Galaxy at some point.

[eugimon]

I hope we get a clear view of the Galaxy at some point.

probably right before it blows up into itty bitty little pieces.

Edited May 13, 2008 by eugimon

[Tobi54]

To the Mods:

I'd like to put in a request (I dont even know if that's allowed but here it goes anyway )

Can we have a dedicated thread to discuss the animation portion of Frontier, whether if it's CGI, 2D etc? There seems to be enough interest in the topic, and honestly I think we can kill 2 birds with the same stone:

1- The Episode threads wont get cluttered with the discussion.

2- The people that are getting annoyed or getting turned off by this topic can ignore it altogether.

Let us know if it's possible, Thanks!

[Max Jenius]

The episode was alright, but I really didn't get into it until about halfway through when my favorite NUNS forward recon team launched. It would be nice to see some of the ole 17s in combat w/o getting torn to pieces.

[Zinjo]

The episode was alright, but I really didn't get into it until about halfway through when my favorite NUNS forward recon team launched. It would be nice to see some of the ole 17s in combat w/o getting torn to pieces.

To quote Obi Wan, "They're doing their job, now let's do ours..."

[Morpheus]

The episode was alright, but I really didn't get into it until about halfway through when my favorite NUNS forward recon team launched. It would be nice to see some of the ole 17s in combat w/o getting torn to pieces.

VF-171 going to combat, change to battroid and gerwalk, after that I don't care whether it blew up or survived

[Sergorn]

The episode was alright, but I really didn't get into it until about halfway through when my favorite NUNS forward recon team launched. It would be nice to see some of the ole 17s in combat w/o getting torn to pieces.

They'd need Gamlin in one of hem, for that not to happen

That being said I find it somewhat suprising that the VF-171 would be the "common fighter". I would have expected the VF-19 to be the commin fighter at that time.

-Sergorn

[glane21]

So what is this big secret about what the Vajra actually are or their origins?

[darkrealmbahamut]

As many ship went to attack there will definately be some VF-171 action as well as cannon fodder death.

[Batou]

They'd need Gamlin in one of hem, for that not to happen

That being said I find it somewhat suprising that the VF-171 would be the "common fighter". I would have expected the VF-19 to be the commin fighter at that time.

-Sergorn

I think trying to assign any "real world" explanation (e.g., "the '19 was too expensive") is pointless. Anything "officially" released will just be convenient excuses for Kawamori to use new/updated designs. I get the impression the only ones looking for continuity or a sense of logic in the Macross universe are the obsessive otaku in strange Internet forum sites ...

(looks over shoulder)

[TehPW]

Just out of curiosity, are you obligated to make a long, drawn-out summary of every episode or are you just having fun?

Begins the ritualistic Beating of sad clod Misa with a Bubblewrap Baseball bat

Please continue, good sir. I live for those comments that explains all the crap that makes me go WTF?

[MisaForever]

Begins the ritualistic Beating of sad clod Misa with a Bubblewrap Baseball bat

Please continue, good sir. I live for those comments that explains all the crap that makes me go WTF?

HEY! I like them!! I was just wondering why I felt like I was being taught about Macross Frontier when I already knew what was going on.

[Mr March]

On Galaxy:

...

And these green guys, circled in the attached pic - are those the Vajra ships seen in the preview for the next episode, or are they the winged Zentraedi ships seen in DYRL? Gah, why must they tease us so?

They definitely look like Zentradi ships (rear view of the Quiltra-Quelamitz Class Gunboat specifically).

[Sergorn]

I think trying to assign any "real world" explanation (e.g., "the '19 was too expensive") is pointless. Anything "officially" released will just be convenient excuses for Kawamori to use new/updated designs. I get the impression the only ones looking for continuity or a sense of logic in the Macross universe are the obsessive otaku in strange Internet forum sites ...

Well I certainly don't mind the VF-171. I *loved* the VF-17; and I think the VF-171 is just a great (Indeed I want more VF171 mecha porn please...). But I just got to wonder considered how the VF19 was supposed to be the next big thing and al

-Sergorn

[ComicKaze]

I never said the animation was on a downward trend, in fact I'm pointing out that the animation will go up and down contrary to what you guys think about ep 1-5 and then 6. The animation in ep 4 was the same or worse than ep 6.

I'm saying be optimistic, it will improve and the more important stories will get better animation as the show goes on and their weekly budget changes depending on what they need to do here and there. This is nothing new. Just think of it as being like the original Macross. You get horrible animation for a few episodes all the time only for them to pull out all the stops for the big ones.

[Master Dex]

Well I certainly don't mind the VF-171. I *loved* the VF-17; and I think the VF-171 is just a great (Indeed I want more VF171 mecha porn please...). But I just got to wonder considered how the VF19 was supposed to be the next big thing and al

-Sergorn

I too wonder about the 19, by this time it would have been the main fighter for the U.N. Spacey for about 12 to 13 years at least. However we should take into account the apparent change in government as it is now New U.N. Spacey or N.U.N.S. Perhaps the new government didn't want to produce the 19 any further for whatever reason.

Regardless we know the VF-171 just came into service in 2058, so it's new. If I were to conjecture, which I am, I'd say the 171 didn't replace the 19, but the VF-25 project was designed to replace the VF-19, and as a result we see S.M.S. is testing out the VF-25 (which I am curious why it is not YF-25 in this case). On this path I believe perhaps the VF-19 is still around, but Frontier simply doesn't have any or doesn't use them. Hey if we're lucky we may see a VF-19 pop in some time to show off how it looks in CG, and if we are really lucky it will be joined by a VF-22 which I believe was only a special forces fighter last we saw it, so it can still be around.

Personally I'm not much of a fan of the 171 though, nor the 17, but that's just me. I've never liked the real world F-117 much either (from both an aesthetic and engineering standpoint).