Aircraft Vs Thread 5

[David Hingtgen]

You're mis-reading. The first 6 *787s* are not up to par, to the point of airlines not wanting them. Most airliners are to full-spec from the very first one. First 777 ever built currently flies for Cathay Pacific. First MD-11 is with FedEx.

Actually, the Concorde has an above-average number of prototypes and pre-production examples (those are 2 different things when talking about the Concorde) and percentage-wise has an insanely-high number of "not delivered to the airlines" examples built.

Also, static-test airframes are never counted in any category/total, they aren't even assigned line numbers and don't count as part of the production run. (especially since they're never finished, sometimes never getting past the 55% mark or so)

[edwin3060]

That looks like a major loss for Boeing-- how much is a Dreamliner, anyway? Hmm.. will Boeing be in financial trouble soon, seeing as to how 1)F-22 production is ending 2)continued C-17 production looks increasingly unlikely and 3)Dreamliner facing problems? Seems like they are having problems with both their military and commercial contracts. The F-18E/F/G is the one bright lining in an otherwise dark cloud.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

That looks like a major loss for Boeing-- how much is a Dreamliner, anyway? Hmm.. will Boeing be in financial trouble soon, seeing as to how 1)F-22 production is ending 2)continued C-17 production looks increasingly unlikely and 3)Dreamliner facing problems? Seems like they are having problems with both their military and commercial contracts. The F-18E/F/G is the one bright lining in an otherwise dark cloud.

Ahhh, they are still making money from the royalties for the Dragon Wings 'Boeing' F-15 die-casts I buy.

David : Ah ok got it after I re-read. So its the 787 only. How did the airlines know they were not up to-par. Boeing admitted it?

Edited May 18, 2009 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[David Hingtgen]

The 777 is still selling well, as is the 737.

As for 787---in addition to Boeing admitting it, everyone already knew it based on supplier problems etc. If the parts going into the plane aren't right, the finished plane's not going to be right.

[edwin3060]

The 777 is still selling well, as is the 737.

As for 787---in addition to Boeing admitting it, everyone already knew it based on supplier problems etc. If the parts going into the plane aren't right, the finished plane's not going to be right.

That's good to know.

[hobbes221]

A few pics of the J10-B that I just came across.

[Knight26]

That's actually a very pretty jet, though what is up with that frigging long arse pitot tube off the nose?

[Phyrox]

That's actually a very pretty jet, though what is up with that frigging long arse pitot tube off the nose?

I interesting, I was about to marvel at how ugly it is. I like the splayed ventral fins and the bulge that passes for an intake spike of sorts...but everything else? ugly.

[Bowen]

I interesting, I was about to marvel at how ugly it is. I like the splayed ventral fins and the bulge that passes for an intake spike of sorts...but everything else? ugly.

Agreed.

My initial thought was that from the side it kinda looked like the bastard-child of an F-16 and a Sukhoi, but without any of the good looks of its parents...

Edited May 26, 2009 by Bowen

[Knight26]

Well it is typical PLAAF fair, they stole a nice design, the IAI Lavi, and made a bastardized version of it with their own hardware. The intake bulge is probably their version of the inlet bulge developed for the F-35, a version of which was tested on the F-16 as a proof of concept, it is a stealth feature.

[the white drew carey]

...though what is up with that frigging long arse pitot tube off the nose?

Spearfishing?

[Bowen]

Spearfishing?

"China expected to dominate fishing business after introduction of revulotionary new technology, special report at 8!"

[anime52k8]

Agreed.

My initial thought was that from the side it kinda looked like the bastard-child of an F-16 and a Sukhoi, but without any of the good looks of its parents...

I was about to say the product of the drunken frat party hook up of an F-16 and a Mig-39M, but I like your description too.

[Vifam7]

That's actually a very pretty jet, though what is up with that frigging long arse pitot tube off the nose?

It's a flight testing probe. Prototypes generally have these probes for data collecting.

It looks like a mashup between a whole host of fighters... the Lavi, Flanker, Typhoon, etc. It's like a kitbash!

The earlier J-10A looks a little better.

[Noyhauser]

Well it is typical PLAAF fair, they stole a nice design, the IAI Lavi, and made a bastardized version of it with their own hardware. The intake bulge is probably their version of the inlet bulge developed for the F-35, a version of which was tested on the F-16 as a proof of concept, it is a stealth feature.

Is it me or does the J-10 seem significantly larger than the Lavi? It looks like they've taken a lightweight fighter design and made it into a heavy weight one...

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I don't see that much Sukhoi in it. Mostly F-16/Lavi. Looks quite dated compared to the other 4.5 fighters IMHO. Maybe its partly the colours.

The V Stab just looks too bloody huge.

[anime52k8]

It's a flight testing probe. Prototypes generally have these probes for data collecting.

It looks like a mashup between a whole host of fighters... the Lavi, Flanker, Typhoon, etc. It's like a kitbash!

The earlier J-10A looks a little better.

actually looking at the picture hobbes posted, it looks like the dorsal blade antenna is still there.

I don't see that much Sukhoi in it. Mostly F-16/Lavi. Looks quite dated compared to the other 4.5 fighters IMHO. Maybe its partly the colours.

The V Stab just looks too bloody huge.

s

the offset FLIR blister in front of the canopy, the shape of the canopy itself, the nose cone, and the dorsal hump all look very Flanker-esque.

[Phyrox]

I don't see that much Sukhoi in it. Mostly F-16/Lavi. Looks quite dated compared to the other 4.5 fighters IMHO. Maybe its partly the colours.

The V Stab just looks too bloody huge.

The engine too. Looks like a kitbash with a 1/48 light fighter rear fuselage and a 1/72 air superiority-type forward fuselage.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Phyrox

[Graham]

Haven't been following what China is doing with fighter jets, but on seeing those pictures, my first thought was Chinese F-16 knock-off.

Those factories in southern China will copy just about anything, from LV handbags, to the latest Nokia phones and now I guess jet fighters as well.

Graham

[David Hingtgen]

Typhoon: Superior to the Super Flanker and Raptor in gourmet mustard delivery. Seriously, they flew a jar of mustard over at great taxpayer expense.

http://www.croatiantimes.com/index.php?id=4059

[Bowen]

Wow, just wow...

[miles316]

Typhoon: Superior to the Super Flanker and Raptor in gourmet mustard delivery. Seriously, they flew a jar of mustard over at great taxpayer expense.

http://www.croatiantimes.com/index.php?id=4059

Is this big news in Germany are they outraged.

[Bri]

Typhoon: Superior to the Super Flanker and Raptor in gourmet mustard delivery. Seriously, they flew a jar of mustard over at great taxpayer expense.

http://www.croatiantimes.com/index.php?id=4059

Is this big news in Germany are they outraged.

No mention of it in the German news. Only source seems to be that Croatian site, so it looks like the story is made up.

[Beltane70]

Those factories in southern China will copy just about anything, from LV handbags, to the latest Nokia phones and now I guess jet fighters as well.

Graham

Imitation is the highest form of flattery?

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Haven't been following what China is doing with fighter jets, but on seeing those pictures, my first thought was Chinese F-16 knock-off.

Those factories in southern China will copy just about anything, from LV handbags, to the latest Nokia phones and now I guess jet fighters as well.

Graham

Well, I just wish they would go COPY THE YF-23. That design needs to see production.

[edwin3060]

Well, I just wish they would go COPY THE YF-23. That design needs to see production.

Well one of their concept 5th gen aircraft does look a little like the YF-23 with canards, pictures below of the concept J-14.

The J-10B/Super J-10 looks alot like a mix between the Lavi, the F-16, the SU-27 (which they rip off as the J-11) with the F-35 style DSI-- which means that frontal RCS could potentially be less than the ~ 1.0 m^2 of the Eurofighter and closer to the ~0.3 m^2 RCS of the Rafale. Discounting the avionics and weapons, the aerodynamics and stealthiness of this fighter would put it on par or better with a Block 50/52+ F-16, especially if they have solved the FADEC problems they had with their WS-10 rip off of the CFM-56. I'd guess that whatever they managed to hack/steal from the US about the B-2, F-22 (Stealth technology/coatings?) and F-35 (DSI) would be put to good use in this and any future projects. Even on the avionics side, with reports of chinese made electronics being installed into the F-15, I really wonder how far ahead the US actually is.

One common observation I have seen about non-US VLO aircraft developments is that countries with no experience in VLO will take a long time to develop such capabilities i.e. the US took years to go from the SR-71, to F-117, to B-2/F-22, hence other countries must follow the same developmental path and timeline. They forget that the nuclear bomb was very quickly proliferated around the world, mainly through espionage, short-cutting the developmental process. I guess the J-10B will prove this observation to be wrong once it enters production.

Edit: Found that article about Chinese made chips in US military equipment: http://www.businessweek.com/print/magazine...03034193886.htm seems like the situation is a combination of political cost cutting pressure from the Clinton era, DOD incompetence in vetting suppliers, and American citizens who want to make a quick buck, allowing for possible exploitation by the Chinese.

Edited May 28, 2009 by edwin3060

[F-ZeroOne]

No mention of it in the German news. Only source seems to be that Croatian site, so it looks like the story is made up.

Chaps? Better keep the lid on those Marmite [1] deliveries to Basra, at least for the time being...

[1] A sandwich spread popular in the UK and some other countries. Famous for either tasting like a) mana of the gods or b) something your dog chewed on for a day. There is no middle ground with Marmite.

[buddhafabio]

i was just thinking something as i was listening to dale brown on the way home. it started with the thought of a laser similar to the 747 based laser miniaturized for fighter plane pod use for air defense suppression role..... wild weasel if you will. then i started thinking. air to air with fighters would make air to air missiles obsolete.i wonder if i will see any of this in my life time.

[F-ZeroOne]

Supposedly they're looking into making a laser weapon pod for the F-35. I suspect theres a ways to go yet.

[buddhafabio]

If that is the case, if a shooting war were to happen along the lines of ww2 , it will be developed real quick

[Nied]

The J-10B/Super J-10 looks alot like a mix between the Lavi, the F-16, the SU-27 (which they rip off as the J-11) with the F-35 style DSI-- which means that frontal RCS could potentially be less than the ~ 1.0 m^2 of the Eurofighter and closer to the ~0.3 m^2 RCS of the Rafale. Discounting the avionics and weapons, the aerodynamics and stealthiness of this fighter would put it on par or better with a Block 50/52+ F-16, especially if they have solved the FADEC problems they had with their WS-10 rip off of the CFM-56. I'd guess that whatever they managed to hack/steal from the US about the B-2, F-22 (Stealth technology/coatings?) and F-35 (DSI) would be put to good use in this and any future projects. Even on the avionics side, with reports of chinese made electronics being installed into the F-15, I really wonder how far ahead the US actually is.

I think you may be overestimating the effect putting a DSI inlet on the J-10 will have on it's RCS. The intake is still a big rounded affair ala the F-16 rather than a stealthy angular design, any RCS advantages would be derived from hiding more of the engine face. In this case it looks like the DSI was chosen more for performance and weight reasons (switching to DSIs on the FC-1/JF-17 reportedly saved a fair amount of weight and freed up space for an extra few hundred pounds of fuel). What's more interesting to me is the F-16E like angled nosecone seam (edge aligned with the intake and several panel lines along the nose no less) indicating that the Chinese are developing an AESA radar.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Nied

[edwin3060]

Yep I was referring more to the hiding of the compressor face with the F-35 reference-- and possibly the coating of the inlet with RAM. Either way the J-10B would be an impressive improvement over the baseline J-10.

Edit: Another view of the J-10 showing E/O and targeting pods on the inlet chin ala F-16 style. I'm not sure whether these are indigenous or Israeli-made/derived.

Edited May 30, 2009 by edwin3060

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Well one of their concept 5th gen aircraft does look a little like the YF-23 with canards, pictures below of the concept J-14.

Where did you get that from? I am liking it! Very 'Ace Combat'.

Hope their next fighter looks something along those lines rather than a F-22 clone.

[Nied]

Yep I was referring more to the hiding of the compressor face with the F-35 reference-- and possibly the coating of the inlet with RAM. Either way the J-10B would be an impressive improvement over the baseline J-10.

Edit: Another view of the J-10 showing E/O and targeting pods on the inlet chin ala F-16 style. I'm not sure whether these are indigenous or Israeli-made/derived.

Yes but the F-16 and Eurofighter use RAM on their intakes and have a hidden compressors as well, I don't see how the J-10B is going to get a lower RCS when the Chinese are reportedly quite far behind the US and Europe in the development of RAM and RAS.

Those pods are likely the FILAT targeting pod and Blue Sky navigation pod, both based off LANTIRN and TIALD pods recovered from downed American and British aircraft during the Gulf War.

[miles316]

The old A-12 stealth attack plain the navy caned in 1991 has finally been legally terminated. Northrup Grumman will finally have to pay back several billion dollars to the Government.