Future Ground Wars

[Nied]

My whole point with overtechnology is not that it cannot be applied, but the relative gains that you recieve out of applying such technology is minor when you compare that to larger units. Think of it this way, Macro scale weapons are now X5 more powerful when combined with overtechnology (Gunpods missiles, beam weaponry and most importantly armor) Micro scale hand held weapons only increase X2 with overtechnology.

That's all fine theory, but where's your evidence? Obviously overtechnology provided enough of an advantage to warrant making a miniaturized LAW. And it's blatantly obivous that it allowed miniaturization of weapons on a scale unheard of before (micro missiles).

I'd say that infantry weapons in the Macross world can nolonger damage their tanks of the day (VFS)

I disagree with your premise. Destorids are much closer to a modern day tank than a VF (VFs are far too light for heavy assults).

Look at micromissiles, none of the weapons carried by the VF-1 could be micronized to the point where they can be carried by a human (more or less launched by one thinking about the kickback and blowback).

Micromissiles are already small enough to be carried by infantry all that's needed is a proper launcher. Kickback would be no more of an issue than it is with modern LAWs (that why they're open at both ends).

Regardless even in 2010 it takes vast swarms of missiles to hit and take down a VF. And by 2040 we have pinpoint barrier technology which just makes VFs nigh invinicible to infantry weapons.

Actually it only takes one. Most missiles are evaded which is why so many are launched (ups your hit propability). Of course in an urban or other enclosed environment even a VF would lose the maneuverability that allows it to avoid so many missiles.

[TheGoLambo]

Someones been playing to much Battletech. I dare you to try and climb on a moving car, even a slow one, and plant a bomb on it. Now give that car mounted guns to shoot you before you get there. Not only that, look what modern infantry weapons can do to modern tanks. Hell, look what modern tanks can do to modern tanks! A T-80 and M-1 could go at it all day and neither would knock the other out. And you'll notice the Tomahawk has both a forward and rear mounted sensor package. Oh, and a LOT of anti infantry weapons. A pair of .50's, pair of 25mm cannons (if you want to be mean), and a pair of flamethrowers (if you want to be evil). Not something you want to go toe to toe with. It looks like the Tomahawk and Spartan where designed to totally overpower human infantry, and I'm pretty sure it's a cold day in hell when human resistence manages to take one down.

[Noyhauser]

Actually I hate battletech, with a passion. I've been a part of the Heavy Gear Community since its inception in 1996 (not the computer game, but the miniature game from DP9) and if you know that game, Gears are nothing more than a new type of AFV that get ruined by tanks, and infantry have a very very good odds against them. And I have a good conception of what modern warfare entails. I am currently doing paid research work on military procurement processes, my friend did work on the effects of DU ammunition on tanks in Kosovo. I just like extrapolating these things because its a fun getaway from work, but I enjoy doing it more for Heavy Gear because that universe bases itself off of real technology and tries to simulate a realistic situations. Macross uses uber technology (like Over technology) which is like a religion in the sense we don''t actually have a clue what its actually capable of doing but we have to believe it anyways. Don't get me wrong I love Macross, but its a lot harder to extrapolate what stuff in the universe can do. Give me an equivalent of what a micromissile can penetrate in Rolled Homogenous Steel and what hyper carbon steel is equivalent to in RHA, and we can have a proper argument.

You ask me where is my evidence Nied? where is yours? we never see Infantry ever take down a foot soldier. Max doesn't even shoot a Zentredi with his new overtechnology gun ( he shoots the wall panel to close the door.) Micromissiles don't even seem like a major imporovement anyways. Also kickback is an important problem in AAGMs. First you have to ensure that your round doesn't fry the weapons operator. Most weapons use a intial kicker charge, which pwops the weapon far enough away from the operator so the main rocket doesnt burn the operator. This was a problem with the Dragon AAGM which could not be used in bunkers because the blowback would severely burn the operator. It must also make sure that the kickback isn't so strong that the operator jar's the weapon while launching shooting it into the ground or up in the air. This puts a major limit on the size and the weight of the weapon.

I''ll admit this though, Since Kawamori never does explicity mentions or shows the effect of infantry our conversation is purely academic. At best we can use circmstantial evidence to build up circumstatial cases that will never be proven in a court of law.

[Nied]

Someones been playing to much Battletech. I dare you to try and climb on a moving car, even a slow one, and plant a bomb on it. Now give that car mounted guns to shoot you before you get there. Not only that, look what modern infantry weapons can do to modern tanks. Hell, look what modern tanks can do to modern tanks! A T-80 and M-1 could go at it all day and neither would knock the other out. And you'll notice the Tomahawk has both a forward and rear mounted sensor package. Oh, and a LOT of anti infantry weapons. A pair of .50's, pair of 25mm cannons (if you want to be mean), and a pair of flamethrowers (if you want to be evil). Not something you want to go toe to toe with. It looks like the Tomahawk and Spartan where designed to totally overpower human infantry, and I'm pretty sure it's a cold day in hell when human resistence manages to take one down.

Actually modern anti tank weapons are quite effective at taking down even an M-1A2. Hell I fyou want to talk about anti-infantry weapons an M-1A2 has one .50cal machine gun, two 7.62mm machine guns and a pair of grenade launchers, it also has a turreted FLIR capable of looking anywhere the commander does, yet quite a few were still taken down by Iraqi forces using simple things like mortars and RPGs. While both the Tomohawk and the Spartan have a plethora of light weapons (though only the .50cals and the flamethrowers would be of much use the rest apears to be anti-armour weaponry), they have a limited field of fire. One might also wonder why the designers would mount anti-personel weaponry on the mecha in the first place if infantry were so minor a threat.