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Roger Harkavy's unpublished Imai material Artbook


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Hello,

I just started a thread with this same name here:

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...&forumid=24

I'd like it to get the attention of Harmony Gold so if you could please post over there and show your support.

Thanks,

Carl

P.S. I don't get on robotech.com too often so I had a few questions some of you here might be able to help me with. How does one edit one of their own posts? I thought I'd edited out some of those blunders before I posted but it looks like the edits didn't stick. Can I fix them now? Also are the points one gets over there good for anything? I have 2169 points and to be honest I don't have a clue how I got them. I typically just peek in once every 6 months to a year and was wondering if someone else was using my account there. I also don't see a way to search for posts by wwwmwww. If I could that should let me know if anyone else has been posting as me. Thanks again for your time...

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Edit - impossible after 10 minutes

Points - useless

I do not believe you can search for posts by a particular member, you can search for the member but I think it just gives you their profile. I think you can change your password somewhere though if you're afraid you've been hijacked but I check the Stuff forum pretty frequently and haven't seen your name in there.

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Thanks... I see where the edit feature is on my second post. I don't remember seeing it when I made the first one. Anyways, I've cleaned up some of the worst of it and just added a second post. I hope I posted it in the correct area. Since we are talking about what I hope to be a furture Harmony Gold product maybe I should have made that post in the "stuff" area.

Carl

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Hey, I know a way this guy can get these images published.

[whisper]It's called the internet.[/whisper]

Not to be a jerk, but does this guy think he's gonna retire by selling a few pages of mecha designs? He doesn't even own the copyrights. Harmony Gold's previous Artbooks are a joke (mostly text with some crummy fan art and barely any line art); they can't do anything right. This hasn't changed.

Am I out of line here? If I had found these designs, I would have put them on the internet without a second thought. Why hasn't Roger done just that?

Edited by danth
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Theoretically this guy worked hard to dig up this information. He is under the impression that his time and effort is worth some amount of money. The Internet could facilitate this if these designs would draw enough attention/traffic to gain Roger some funds from the revenue the site would get from advertisers. He may also be under the impression that Harmony Gold has a wider reach than an unknown/named website and thus he could reach more people/receive greater profit from working with HG. Trying to wheel and deal with HG thus makes a ton of sense... more sense than saying "You should just give it away for free!" Don't get me wrong, it'd be awesome if he did that, I love Mospeada and would love to see everything, but how could I possibly fault the guy for seeking some reward for all his hard work? The legalities of the situation are something entirely different... if he can't possibly profit in anyway then hell yeah, to the free Internet dispersing method with them! :D

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Not to be a jerk, but does this guy think he's gonna retire by selling a few pages of mecha designs?
No. Freelance writing is not my gravy train, it's really just something I do mainly for fun but I treat it the same way as I do my regular career. I do a professional job, and I don't do it for free.
He doesn't even own the copyrights.
I think that's obvious. That's one of the reasons I've been working with Harmony Gold.
Harmony Gold's previous Artbooks are a joke (mostly text with some crummy fan art and barely any line art); they can't do anything right. This hasn't changed.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion regarding Robotech Art 1-3, but you haven't seen the new art book, so to say that "this hasn't changed" is an unfair assessment.
If I had found these designs, I would have put them on the internet without a second thought. Why hasn't Roger done just that?
Several reasons:

1) As you stated above, I don't have the rights to publish exact reproductions of these designs in the USA.

2) The people that own the materials allowed me to catalog and copy them after I reassured them that they would only be used in a legitimate project that involved the US license holder. Later, they gave me permission to use the handful of sketches in the Super7 article as well as the one that I posted on Captain JLS' blog.

3) I flew to Japan to get the materials, including a bullet train trip to where they were being stored.

4) My friends and I worked for several weeks cataloging and translating the materials.

5) Last but not least, in addition to travel expenses, I have spent a lot of money scanning these and eventually shipping them back to Japan.

Granted, I am a fan of these shows, but I never would have invested this effort if I wasn't going to get the material published legitimately and in a way that showcases the thought and detail that the original creators put into it. Simply dumping it on the internet (where someone is even more likely to copy and distribute the materials and my work with no benefit to me) is not an option.

And now a question for you:

If I had found these designs, I would have put them on the internet without a second thought.
Given what you know now about the situation regarding these, put yourself in my position. Would you put them on the internet without a second thought? If so, why? What would give you the right to do this? What would motivate you to do it all for free?
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The Artbook is really wishful thinking at best unless the Magazine they are shown in either has a 'best of' Annual book or they spend thousands backtracking the mess of copyright, nation laws, international laws, and pending court cases that maybe connected to it... it's more then likely not gonna happen Besides the guy/magazine is somewhat clueless when it comes to that, after reading the blogpage. They try'ed to copyright a photography of an image. lol

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The Artbook is really wishful thinking at best unless the Magazine they are shown in either has a 'best of' Annual book or they spend thousands backtracking the mess of copyright, nation laws, international laws, and pending court cases that maybe connected to it... it's more then likely not gonna happen Besides the guy/magazine is somewhat clueless when it comes to that, after reading the blogpage. They try'ed to copyright a photography of an image. lol

I've said all I'm going to say about the copyright notice on that graphic, but if you're going to judge me or Super7 as "clueless" after reading a handful of anonymous blog postings, then nothing's going to change your mind.
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I have to agree with jenius. Sure I see your point danth and its closer to what I try to practice but I certainly can't fault Roger. In my case I just spent 3 years (off and on) tracking down this:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=22059

What drives me is the desire to share this cool stuff so I freely share what I find. The same is true of the Tread/Beta Gakken toy. I spent far more time and money tracking that down just so I could freely share this:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mospeada/tread_toy.htm

That said was it legal for me to post scans of that Mospeada DÅjinshi? I would assume I probably broke a copyright law or two when I did that. But I'll worry about that if anyone comes looking for me.

See I don't look at this as my profession. I enjoy sharing with other fans and I'm not out to make money on this stuff. However I certainly don't expect everyone else to feel the same way. I can't expect an artist to simply give away his works for free. In this case, sure Roger doesn't own the copyrights to these designs, but he does have something in his possesion that has value. Something he's spent time and money to track down and perserve. He's willing to share and has already shared a great deal of info with the community. I know many collectors that would jump on something like this, hide it away in a private collection somewhere, and the rest of the world would never be aware it existed. I much prefer Roger's approach. He's also probably following the only truely legal approach he can. I assume Harmony Gold is the rightful copyright holder in this case, or atleast has the right to legally distribute this copyrighted material. And if this does happen ask yourself this... will more people see his artbook or the Mospeada DÅjinshi I just shared for free?

Sure I could try to translate the Mospeada DÅjinshi into English and try to publish it through proper channels but that would be FAR more work than posting it as I did. In that light I'm simply lazy and Roger is trying far harder to share what he has with as many fans as possible. I certainly think any Mospeada fan should support his efforts.

Oh... and I'd also encourage you to listen to his interview. In it he answers this question directly and throws out a few other pieces of info that may be playing a part in his decisions. The person that owned this stuff prior to Roger let him take it with the understanding that he'd work with the proper channels and that he wouldn't publish it on his own. In this case that is Harmony Gold. If that was part of the agreement he made to acquire these materials I certainly respect his desire to honor that agreement.

Just my two cents,

Carl

Edited by wwwmwww
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And now a question for you:Given what you know now about the situation regarding these, put yourself in my position. Would you put them on the internet without a second thought? If so, why? What would give you the right to do this? What would motivate you to do it all for free?

I listen to the story on Space Station Liberty, and what you are doing seems fine with me. I just don't have much faith with HG's creative department or licencing. I mean you want to do something for you and the fan base, but so did Micheal Bradly. Most of us know he had to go through heck to release his own stuff. So in the end you may be offered a $ amount for your troubles, but who's to say they don't just say we own it so hand them over, once legal matters come into play if publishing is considered.

Okay back to your question. To be honest if I would have found them on my hunts in Tokyo, I would have just put it on ebay after scanning a copy for myself. Then I'm sure the buyer would just spread them around the fanbase, letting the internet give these designs to the people who want and deserve them most. In the SSL interview you say something about it being a summer job to the Artmic team and that they barley remember even working on the show (sorry if that is a little off). They are the creators and they don't seem to care what happened to them then or now, and I don't think HG will make sure they get their check if something does get published.

Would you put them on the internet without a second thought? Yeah I would.

If so, why? Fans want them and I want to give it to the fans. Makes me feel good.

What would give you the right to do this? Well I live in Japan out of HG's reach if selling in in Japan or on Yahoo Auciton JP. Or I cold fan publish them with the ok of Tatsunoko giving me a sticker to put on every issue then sell at Comiket like many other Japanese fans do with old anime shows. Then a Japanese fan would scan and put them on the internet for the world as well.

What would motivate you to do it all for free? Again it gives me a good feeling.

That's just an honest answer, but if you do get something out it will probably be one of the first thing I've purchased from HG since the Legacy DVD Boxes.

Edited by SaveRobotech
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Boy do I type slow. Three posts were made while I was typing mine above.

And one other question to ponder... what would you rather have... an artbook with English translations of everthing or a stack of printouts of low resolution scans that someone posted on the internet? I for one am certainly willing to pay for the Artbook. As far as HG's track record I'd rather not comment but that is certainly something Roger can't be faulted for. He's trying and for that I give him credit...

Carl

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SaveRobotech - you may live in Japan, out of HG's reach, BUT you live in JAPAN, in reach of the true and rightful owners. As you appear to be unaware, it is illegal, in Japanese law, to use any part of a copyrighted work without the owner's consent.

Here's the law, in English: http://www.cric.or.jp/cric_e/clj/clj.html

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No. Freelance writing is not my gravy train, it's really just something I do mainly for fun but I treat it the same way as I do my regular career. I do a professional job, and I don't do it for free.

I'm not sure what this has to do with freelance writing.

I think that's obvious. That's one of the reasons I've been working with Harmony Gold.
It's not even obvious if Harmony Gold has the copyright. These are unused Artmic designs, right? They were never even used in Mospeada. Although I haven't seen all of the images you have; maybe some of them feature actual Mospeada designs. But what makes you think Harmony Gold doesn't already have these images laying around? If Imai had them, I don't see why Harmony Gold wouldn't too.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion regarding Robotech Art 1-3, but you haven't seen the new art book, so to say that "this hasn't changed" is an unfair assessment.
There's a new artbook? Sweet. I hope it's good.

1) As you stated above, I don't have the rights to publish exact reproductions of these designs in the USA.
Well, come on. I'm talking about posting these on the internet. The internet is built on copyright infringement.

2) The people that own the materials allowed me to catalog and copy them after I reassured them that they would only be used in a legitimate project that involved the US license holder. Later, they gave me permission to use the handful of sketches in the Super7 article as well as the one that I posted on Captain JLS' blog.
If you gave these people your word, then you're honor bound. That's a good reason not to post them on the internet.

3) I flew to Japan to get the materials, including a bullet train trip to where they were being stored.

4) My friends and I worked for several weeks cataloging and translating the materials.

5) Last but not least, in addition to travel expenses, I have spent a lot of money scanning these and eventually shipping them back to Japan.

I don't see why this matters. One, you don't work for free, remember? I'm sure you were compensated for all this. Two, digging through Imai's treasure trove sounds like a nerd's dream, so I don't exactly feel sorry for you.

Granted, I am a fan of these shows, but I never would have invested this effort if I wasn't going to get the material published legitimately and in a way that showcases the thought and detail that the original creators put into it. Simply dumping it on the internet (where someone is even more likely to copy and distribute the materials and my work with no benefit to me) is not an option.
Harmony Gold is going to showcase the thought and detail of the original creators? Have you ever heard of Robotech? "Dumping" them on the internet would allow everyone to enjoy them without Harmony Gold (who butchered Mospeada along with Macross and Southern Cross) getting a single cent.

And now a question for you:Given what you know now about the situation regarding these, put yourself in my position. Would you put them on the internet without a second thought? If so, why? What would give you the right to do this? What would motivate you to do it all for free?
The promise to those who let you scan the art would be the only thing holding me back. As for "rights," I don't think in terms of rights. I think in terms of "how much happiness can I spread to fellow fans."

You said in the Super 7 magazine that you dreamed of the designs being published. When I read that, I immediately thought "just post them on the internet." I guess you meant that you wanted to make some money from it. That's fine, but I seriously doubt Harmony Gold is gonna go through all the trouble just so you can make some cash. If they do, I'll be the first to buy the new artbook.

I just don't see how you're entitled to any money from this. You don't own the copyright (although that didn't stop you from copying all the images or trying to claim copyright on the blog interview) or the original images from the Imai trove. Shouldn't the people who bought the Imai stuff make the money?

It all comes down to this: withholding images that all the fans want to see in hopes of cashing out on something you don't even own is completely unethical.

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And yes, I agree with Roger: not only has he gone out of his way to acquire the materials, and to have the materials professionally translated into English*, he has made agreements with the owners of the materials to not give the material away for free (at financial loss to the owners, as the interest expressed in this thread for the material is proving.)

* How many times have you non-Japanese fluent Macross fans been left scratching your heads at the Japanese text that accompanies lineart; let alone the, at times, contradictory fan translated text that accompanies lineart, and subtitled anime?

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SaveRobotech - you may live in Japan, out of HG's reach, BUT you live in JAPAN, in reach of the true and rightful owners. As you appear to be unaware, it is illegal, in Japanese law, to use any part of a copyrighted work without the owner's consent.

Here's the law, in English: http://www.cric.or.jp/cric_e/clj/clj.html

Read the part about Comiket in my post. Tell the part about Japanese law to the Yahoo Auction sellers selling this stuff made from very bad photo copied copyrighted anime production materials every day. I was just answering Rogers question. So what is your point since it is a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question?

Edited by SaveRobotech
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Danth - you're arguement makes no sense; and that's from legal, moral, and as a fellow fan, standpoints.

I agree. No one refutes that Roger did some work for this. IF (and it's a big if, but one I don't think any of us is capable of answering) he is capable of receiving compensation for his efforts, how can we possibly state he shouldn't? I'm a stingey bastard who hates paying for anything, that doesn't give me the right to start demanding things for free or asserting that people giving me things for free is the best way for them to conduct their lives.

That said, I think more than anything else Danth is just arguing that these items get published at all costs, regardless of HG or any potential gains. On those grounds I agree. I hope if HG can't come through for Roger that these designs don't just fade away into obscurity but do become public viewing some how. I don't think we're at a point where that should be our fear though. Best of luck to you Roger.

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Danth - you're arguement makes no sense; and that's from legal, moral, and as a fellow fan, standpoints.

Um...so you believe:

* The holder of the actual artwork should get no money, but Roger, the guy who scanned it illegally, should

* Harmony Gold will treat the artwork with the respect it deserves

* Harmony Gold will lift a finger to make this artbook so all the fans can see this art

* It is clear that Harmony Gold owns all these unused designs

Or are you just talking out your ass?

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It all comes down to this: withholding images that all the fans want to see in hopes of cashing out on something you don't even own is completely unethical.

WOW. I'm just going to let this quote stand by itself.

And with that, I am done.

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WOW. I'm just going to let this quote stand by itself.

And with that, I am done.

It really is that simple. You copied Artmic's designs, without their premission, and now you want to sell the copies. If you're fine with copyright illegality (which you obviously are, and hell, so am I), posting them on the internet would be the obvious thing to do if you can't make money from it any other way.

Which leads me to ask: what will you do if Harmony Gold says "No"?

I know you're honor bound to the guy who let you scan them, but since he's your friend (according to the Super 7 article), I'm sure you could ask him if you could just post them on the internet, sell them on eBay, or whatever.

Edited by danth
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posting them on the internet would be the obvious thing to do if you can't make money from it any other way.

So... you agree its ok for him to try and make some money off this? Is so what's the problem? If he can't I'd imagine he'd be more likely to look at other options if he felt his efforts were supported by other fellow fans. I didn't start this thread to give others the oportunity to question all his motives and give him a hard time. If I were in his shoes, it wouldn't take much of this to come to the conclusion that this effort was more trouble then it was worth. I also feel we have enough HG bashing threads around here. No point in taking that out on Robert.

Which leads me to ask: what will you do if Harmony Gold says "No"?

Lets cross that bridge when we come to it. Its taken 2 or 3 years to get to this point. I imagine getting this published isn't Robert's full time job so it may take some time. Give it a chance to work.

Robert, I have a question for you. Have you considered getting this published in Japan? If HG proves too difficult to work with that might be an easier option. Just something to consider...

Carl

Edited by wwwmwww
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Um...so you believe:

* The holder of the actual artwork should get no money, but Roger, the guy who scanned it illegally, should

* Harmony Gold will treat the artwork with the respect it deserves

* Harmony Gold will lift a finger to make this artbook so all the fans can see this art

* It is clear that Harmony Gold owns all these unused designs

Or are you just talking out your ass?

Now who is being the anus?

Bullet 1: See Roger's post above. By having the legitimate license holder publish the images, the owners of the material will get money, along with Roger, the legitimate license holders, and whomever they involve in the project.

I have a question: did Imai work on Macross? Macross is the only property that is in a legal gray zone regarding licensing. Superdimension Century Southern Cross, and Genesis Climber Mospeada are seperate. From the links provided, I am of the understanding that the material in question has to do with Mospeada, not Macross.

Bullet 2 & 3: You're entitled to your opinions. I find it both amusing (in a facinating way) and worrisome (in a 'are you insane' way) that a post stating that your arguement is confusing from multiple perspectives means those opinions.

Can I use your posts as an example of the strawman arguement elsewhere?

Bullet 4: see response to bullet 1

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If fan to fan violations of copyright law concerning Macross or Mospeada were of any concern to the “true†copyright holders this website could not exist. There are countless art book & magazine scans as well as vid caps all over this site.

As soon as the Shadow Chronicles or any other Harmony Gold art book are published there will be scans of it pages all over the net. HG can’t prevent it from happening it is the way the internet works people want something so they up load or post what they have in the hopes others will do the same.

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Kudos on the hard work pulling together the materials and putting it in a format. I hope that you can work out a deal and earn an income for work you appear to have enjoyed doing. To heck with the people who didn't do any of the work and want the rewards for free.

Keep us informed on any progress you make in your project, I know there are a few around here who would support it.

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Kudos on the hard work pulling together the materials and putting it in a format. I hope that you can work out a deal and earn an income for work you appear to have enjoyed doing. To heck with the people who didn't do any of the work and want the rewards for free.

I just want to point out that anime bootleggers do a lot of hard work too. Illegally copying and distributing anime takes a lot of time and money. That doesn't mean I'm going to support them. I'd much rather download a fansub than support bootleggers, although I'll always buy R1 licensed anime instead of downloading it.

This is slightly different because Roger is trying to go through HG, the (supposedly*) legitimate license holder. If he was just going to hand the stuff over to them, he'd be my hero. But he's trying to score big off it, which makes it way less likely the images will ever be published. He's already shown he'd rather wait for years so he can make money then let anyone see it for free. That's funny, because he didn't pay a dime for it (putting quarters in a copy machine doesn't count**). But he wants us to pay him for it indirectly through an HG-released artbook.

Like I said, if he just gave it over to HG, it'd be different. If he bought Imai's actual original copies, it would be totally different. But he's trying to make money from all of us for his illegal, unpaid for copies? AND he wants US to do the legwork for him by pestering Harmony Gold? That really rubs me the wrong way.

Now if he's working on the actual book, doing translations, layout, everything, and he presents the prototype to HG and says "Take it or leave it," that might be okay. He could technically claim he was selling his work and not the copies of the images. But from what I've read, the message is: "I'm sitting on copies of stuff you all want, now go pester Harmony Gold so they'll buy it from me."

* I say HG is the supposed copyright holder because the samples I've seen are unused designs. If the designs were never used in Mospeada or Southern Cross, it might not be included in their respective licenses.

** Although I don't have any problem with Harmony Gold paying Roger for the actual cost of copying the materials, or even paying him a finders fee.

Edited by danth
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he's trying to score big off it

You mean "get some sort of compensation," watch your rhetoric. He doesn't have dreams of new cars and mansions here unless he's delusional.

That's funny, because he didn't pay a dime for it

I don't think he gets free trips to Japan, free bullet train service, free hotel rooms or free meals on his trips. I also bet he gets paid for his time as well. Even if you theoretically don't pay a dime but you invest countless man hours you're entitlted to compensation of some form.

AND he wants US to do the legwork for him by pestering Harmony Gold?

Carl is not Roger and Roger is not making a stink about anything and Carl's doing it because he sees the value in Roger's work. He's not asking you to spend money and he's only asking you to spend a few minutes of your time but even that is too much effort for you?

Your entire argument hinges upon the fact you don't think Roger is entitled to anything for his hard work. You completely ignore the fact that we wouldn't be talking about any of this without that hard work. Once you recognize that it is only because of Roger that these designs can come to light you will begin to see there's value to what Roger has done. Once you recognize that value is present it shouldn't take you long to understand that compensation is not an unreasonable request.

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Hey, I know a way this guy can get these images published.

[whisper]It's called the internet.[/whisper]

Not to be a jerk, but does this guy think he's gonna retire by selling a few pages of mecha designs? He doesn't even own the copyrights. Harmony Gold's previous Artbooks are a joke (mostly text with some crummy fan art and barely any line art); they can't do anything right. This hasn't changed.

Am I out of line here? If I had found these designs, I would have put them on the internet without a second thought. Why hasn't Roger done just that?

Wow,...just wow. Roger is a great guy, and he is trying to get this done properly and professionally. You just came out of nowhere with that oh so wonderful post above. Next time you come across something like this (if you ever may) Why don't you try,

1. Lying

2. Not keeping your word

3. Assery

4. Just posting it on the internet

and see how far it gets you in life, your career, and personal and professional relations.

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* I say HG is the supposed copyright holder because the samples I've seen are unused designs. If the designs were never used in Mospeada or Southern Cross, it might not be included in their respective licenses.

Roger has not stated nor made the claim that HG is the copyright holders.

He has stated that HG is the legitimate license holder in the United States. The actual Japanese owners of the copyright of the material believe so too. If the Japanese owners believe it, then who are we to argue about the right of licensing the material in the United States?

In addition, I would not be suprised if Roger spent more than $5,000 USD to go and get the material. And that's not even including translation and negotiation time!

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Roger has not stated nor made the claim that HG is the copyright holders.

He has stated that HG is the legitimate license holder in the United States. The actual Japanese owners of the copyright of the material believe so too.

Well, I'm not a lawyer, but I thought the whole point of a license is that it gives you a copyright.

Anyway, my statements are only pissing people off. I've already made my points, and nobody agrees, so I guess it's over for me. I really doubt the artbook is gonna happen, but I hope I'm wrong.

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Harmony Gold's previous Artbooks are a joke (mostly text with some crummy fan art and barely any line art); they can't do anything right. This hasn't changed.

What are you talking about? Both Robotech Art 1 and 3 are full of line art. I don't have Robotech Art 2, but the entire purpose of that book was fan art as I recall.

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What are you talking about? Both Robotech Art 1 and 3 are full of line art. I don't have Robotech Art 2, but the entire purpose of that book was fan art as I recall.

Correct, Art 2 was meant to be a showcase of fan art. I really like the Robotech Art series, especially when you consider the time at which they were produced.

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Agreed. The three books introduced me to anime in general (the last section of the books.) Yes, they are definitely dated now, but they do give a good time-capsule-esque view into the state of 'Japanimation', and the English/North American perception of it in the era of their publishing.

In a way, they are of much higher quality than the TIA: SDFM 3-series of books - sure, they don't have as much lineart or production work, but they do have a lot of glossy colour images.

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What are you talking about? Both Robotech Art 1 and 3 are full of line art. I don't have Robotech Art 2, but the entire purpose of that book was fan art as I recall.

Art 1 has a good amount of character line art, and a good four pages of valkyrie lineart, but other than that, you get two small pictures of only the popular mecha (thee if your lucky), almost no supporting vehicles, no transformation sequences, etc. There's almost nothing on the Cyclones or Invid. The robotech RPGS had way more lineart.

So yes, for an artbook, barely any lineart.

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