Beware Members Of Pay Pal And Ebay! Big Scam!

[jenius]

When you run a business (big or small, on ebay or in a super market), you run it professionally. Part of being professional means when there is a problem, you deal with it in a proper and promptly manner. What I am reading is not proper nor promptly.

I guess I'm just seeing more gray area than everyone else. From Bryan's perspective, speaking of the initial transaction only, he paid for an item and received it. Everything is done as it should be, happy times.

From FM's perspective, he received payment and shipped the items. Everything is happy. Then Paypal comes at him and freezes his money. Paypal tells him to prove the item was shipped and received and he can not (I empathize with him here, until the previous post about signatures I probably wouldn't have forced Bryan to pay insurance either). FM can not prove sufficiently to Paypal's standards despite Bryan's apparent attempts to help him do so. Up to this point, it's still entirely (albeit regrettably for all parties involved) FM's problem.

FM then requests additional payment or return of the items from Bryan. Now, if you're a nice guy and you can accomodate these requests you do one of these two options... but Bryan was right, he did pay for the items and he received them, everything is hunky-dory from his perspective. Again, it sucks for FM that Paypal is screwing with him but Bryan shouldn't be required to pay twice and receive a refund later whenever Paypal starts playing nice with FM again. Basically, FM would be deferring his problem to Bryan.

Up until this point it seems that all Bryan did wrong was stop communicating well (which is definitely a sin so don't think I'm downplaying it). When Bryan started "allegedly" selling the items on eBay that's clearly a no-tact act but remember, he paid for items and received them which makes them his to sell or whatever; I doubt he had any reason to believe anything other than having FM's account being unfrozen. However, being aware of FM's situation he still should have never sold the items.

The only time Bryan starts acting patently wrong here is when FM gets Bryan's money refunded back to Bryan through some Paypal error. There's absolutely no logic in his actions following that. In fact, Bryan's actions post refund almost make you wonder if he didn't call in the transaction in the first place and initiate this problem due to his better understanding of how Paypal works... but that's all conspiracy theory talk. I mean, if you used a credit card style Paypal transaction, and then called the credit card directly to initiate a chargeback, I'll bet the credit card would then contact Paypal, thus Paypal would start a fraud investigation on the initiator's request, then after the shipper not being able to prove the item was shipped after so many days they would refund the purchaser their money...

[nightmareB4macross]

When you run a business (big or small, on ebay or in a super market), you run it professionally. Part of being professional means when there is a problem, you deal with it in a proper and promptly manner. What I am reading is not proper nor promptly.

I guess I'm just seeing more gray area than everyone else. From Bryan's perspective, speaking of the initial transaction only, he paid for an item and received it. Everything is done as it should be, happy times.

From FM's perspective, he received payment and shipped the items. Everything is happy. Then Paypal comes at him and freezes his money. Paypal tells him to prove the item was shipped and received and he can not (I empathize with him here, until the previous post about signatures I probably wouldn't have forced Bryan to pay insurance either). FM can not prove sufficiently to Paypal's standards despite Bryan's apparent attempts to help him do so. Up to this point, it's still entirely (albeit regrettably for all parties involved) FM's problem.

FM then requests additional payment or return of the items from Bryan. Now, if you're a nice guy and you can accomodate these requests you do one of these two options... but Bryan was right, he did pay for the items and he received them, everything is hunky-dory from his perspective. Again, it sucks for FM that Paypal is screwing with him but Bryan shouldn't be required to pay twice and receive a refund later whenever Paypal starts playing nice with FM again. Basically, FM would be deferring his problem to Bryan.

Up until this point it seems that all Bryan did wrong was stop communicating well (which is definitely a sin so don't think I'm downplaying it). When Bryan started "allegedly" selling the items on eBay that's clearly a no-tact act but remember, he paid for items and received them which makes them his to sell or whatever; I doubt he had any reason to believe anything other than having FM's account being unfrozen. However, being aware of FM's situation he still should have never sold the items.

The only time Bryan starts acting patently wrong here is when FM gets Bryan's money refunded back to Bryan through some Paypal error. There's absolutely no logic in his actions following that. In fact, Bryan's actions post refund almost make you wonder if he didn't call in the transaction in the first place and initiate this problem due to his better understanding of how Paypal works... but that's all conspiracy theory talk. I mean, if you used a credit card style Paypal transaction, and then called the credit card directly to initiate a chargeback, I'll bet the credit card would then contact Paypal, thus Paypal would start a fraud investigation on the initiator's request, then after the shipper not being able to prove the item was shipped after so many days they would refund the purchaser their money...

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Damn, that conspiracy theory is DEEP.

[Mowe]

Don't fill any more ideas to MF (he suffers enough) .

But that is one darn sweet move, must keep that in the bag

I mean, if you used a credit card style Paypal transaction, and then called the credit card directly to initiate a chargeback, I'll bet the credit card would then contact Paypal, thus Paypal would start a fraud investigation on the initiator's request, then after the shipper not being able to prove the item was shipped after so many days they would refund the purchaser their money...

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[JsARCLIGHT]

IMHO, I don't think that a company with 60+ employees quantifies as a small business - maybe a medium sized one.  Though I agree that the term is up for debate.  the context that I was using it in, in the above, is a 1 man company.

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My point was it is an excuse that you "have no time" when you run a business as there is always time for something as simple as this. I will totally agree that I have no time to drive to Phoenix and back or fly to Guam but I do have oodles of time to go on the internet and read message boards and respond to personal emails for ten to fifteen minutes.

I also may not be an expert on Paypal or it's business practices but how can they just on a whim lock an account and force the seller to "prove he sold something"? That whole side of this sounds fishy... from what I do know of paypal from scouring their TOS they simply don't just "do" that, something has to happen to instigate it. I know there are tons of people out their who claim paypal "just does that" and that they are evil for doing it but for the life of me I cannot understand what the logic is in that. Something had to have been done by someone to flag that transation and cause them to lock it.

[sketchley]

Yes and no. It really depends on the nature of the company - some companies ban non-business related internet/computer use entirely. In others, a computer may not even be a part of the job (assembly line work comes to mind. Not the best example - late.)

Though, outside of working hours and days, it is another story and there is some support there for the 'I have no time = I don't want to make the time' arguement.

Now just to be clear - I have no personal relationship with either of the agreived parties. I am participating in this thread just for the exercise and mental distraction of it.

That said, I am disappointed that this thread is turning into a mob-mentality heresay filled one.

Let's go back to Bryan's posts. There are a lot of things mentioned in there that need to be clarified.

1. Pay Pal asked Ben So to fax over PROOF OF SHIPPING documentation for out transaction. He was unable to do so

This hasn't exactly been clarified. Wouldn't a signed statement from the receiver that the shipment has been received be sufficient? I understand that Paypal's procedures are about as clear as mud, but a signed document from the receiving person should speak volumes.

I find this smelly as it appears that neither one was asked for nor one offered. Though I may be misunderstanding the requirements.

2. Why did Ben ask for a second payment?

Did he know something about the first that hasn't been mentioned? Just from reading Brian's post, I am of the impression that Ben failed to understand the situation and paniced when the money wasn't in his hands right away. I may be reading between the lines, but that's the impression I got.

3. Why did Ben make demands and threats to a businessman who was obviously bending over backwards to help him?

In my experience that behaviour gets people stopping whatever help and assistance they are offering.

This leads into another point - Ben should apologize for this. At the very least, it should grease the machine and start things moving again. Bryan's made a lot of demands, but a simple apology should go a long way. Long enough that some of the more outrageous demands be dropped and the money shows up faster.

4. His eBay name is viviere. 181 feedback with 97 percent positive, and that is not counting the feedback Ben So had reversed.

When did the 3% negative comments occur? Earlier than, or at the same time as Ben's Paypal account was frozen? I ask this, because of the 'conspiracy theory' going down in the thread. Another client may have filed a grievance with Paypal that led to Ben's account being frozen.

It may also be indicative of Ben's transaction nature - giving credence to Bryan's claims.

5. I will cut you a MO once Pay Pal sends me a check for my money in October.

My interpretation of this is that Bryan's money (or the money that was paid to Ben and later returned) is still locked up in Paypal pergatory. Even without the 'requests' and if things had been resolved and the money sent, since the money would still be locked until October (or August) it wouldn't arrive any time soon.

I had a point... lost it in typing this. I think I wanted to mention something about Brian would still have to wait a few months for the money. Beer and late at night. Not a good combination for clarity of thought!

Anyhow, these are some questions I'd like answered, as it will clarify things greatly for me. thank you.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Just for my own edification I've gone back over this thread and have tried to piece together a timeline of what it *seems to me* happened in this whole mess and this is what I have so far:

- FM is selling some expensive toys

- Bryan agrees to purchase these toys from FM

- The payment is made by paypal, source of funding unknown

- FM receives payment via paypal and ships toys to Bryan via some shipping method which does not meet paypal's strict "signature proof" requirements

- Bryan receives the package

- Shortly after or thereabouts Bryan's paypal account is locked and "under investigation" for reasons unknown, to which he starts a thread on MW (this thread)

- soon after that, FM's paypal account is also locked and "under investigation" for reasons unknown, which he posts as such in this thread

- FM contacts Bryan about a resolution, both seem to agree that a resolution through paypal's system is the route to follow, things remain cordial in emails and on MW

- FM provides paypal with all the data he has, which is "insufficient" to paypal per their TOS, Bryan also attempts a resolution with paypal

- FM contacts Bryan again about ways to "rectify" the situation by sending a second payment, to which Bryan refuses

- At some point communications between FM and Bryan break down, FM continues to request communication through email but Bryan either never receives said emails or ignores them as well as not posting on MW

- At some point paypal declares the issue "closed" and refunds the payment out of FM's paypal account and back to Bryan's paypal account, which is still locked and "under investigation"

- FM requests repayment of these refunded funds from Bryan, who is still not communicating with FM or posting on MW

- Bryan returns to post a long, emotional rant on MW offering to only pay FM if he follows certain "terms" and claims he will never return to MW again

- FM refuses these "terms"

Which leaves us with where we are right now. Am I missing anything in there anywhere?

When looking at the big picture from space it would appear to me that this whole domino effect started with Bryan's paypal account being locked. I personally find it very suspicious that Bryan's paypal account is under such scrutiny and then suddenly FM's account is locked down "for no apparent reason". I have read quite extensively that paypal will lock an account and investigate it if credit card fraud or a consumer complaint or chargeback is in effect. Perhaps Bryan had some sort of issue with another transaction on his paypal account which caused it to be shut down for investigation... at which point paypal backtraced all his recent transactions which lead them to FM, causing them to lock and investigate his account as part of a larger action. If FM was paid out of Bryan's paypal account with funds that are under investigation from paypal then if you ask me it is a no-brainer why those funds where frozen if that is indeed the case. Unlike the gobs of folks out there who hate paypal with a level of vitriol and conspiracy theory, I just don' see how a company will just "randomly lock and investigate an account"... it makes no sense. But when you look at this situation this way, it kind of makes sense as they are following up on something else they are investigating.

Am I completely off base on this?

[sketchley]

It makes sense, but in this situation, the implication is:

Bryan is investigated.

Ben, by an associated transaction is also investigated.

Paypal conclusion is that Ben didn't send the item and Bryan is the victim for sending money and not receiving the item.

@.@ Confusion @.@

Edited June 2, 2006 by sketchley

[Mowe]

I am with JsARCLIGHT on this one.

At this point in time, how can somebody demand apology when no one is certain of who's at fault? However, the followings are certain:

- Bryan received a very expensive item with money returned to him (deal of a life time)

- MF lost a very expensive item and without money.

Lets sort out the money and ownership of the item first. Apology might mean something later, if they still care.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I was assuming that the funds that came out of Bryan's account where suspect by paypal for some reason and as such paypal followed those funds into FM's account. They then froze that transation to make him (FM) account for the funds. We are missing several key pieces of info in order to piece the whole thing together... as it stands now the way I see how it went down was something along the lines of Bryan gets money in his PP account from some other sales he made with which he uses to pay FM. That said money is then part of a chargeback on Bryan from a previous sale (or some other action) which casues his account to become frozen. PP then traces that money out to other people Bryan has paid with it and freezes FM's account (perhaps more people's accounts are frozen, too bad we can't confirm any of this). The whole "prove you sent the item" seems to just be one part of PP's standard "your account is on hold" proceedure and it may not have had anything to do with the actual "problem" they where pursuing in the first place but it BECAME the problem when propper doccuments where not available. Kind of like being pulled over for speeding and when the cop asks you for your license and insurance and you can't show him either. From the sound of things the money would have stayed in FM's account and would have possibly been unlocked in a few months time but someone did something to cause it to be refunded to Bryan, at which point it becomes just another piece of his frozen account.

[sketchley]

I don't see it in such black and white terms.

Bryan paid paypal to send money to Ben.

Ben sent item to Bryan. Bryan received item.

Paypal froze Ben's paypal account.

Paypal returned Bryan's money to Ben.

The way I see it, Ben doesn't have to deal with Bryan at all. He has to deal with the true source of this headache: Paypal. Once Paypal is convinced that they made a mistake, Paypal will provide money to Ben and then attempt to take money from Bryan (and probably make things hellish once more for him in the process.)

Take Paypal to court, IMHO.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Paypal was simply the means by which the payment was made, and bungled. The transaction between two people (FM and Bryan) is the core issue of litigation. Items changed hands for money, the money turned out to be tainted somehow and was returned to the buyer. As it stands the buyer has both the items and (however indirectly) the money. Further involvement of Paypal is asking for a massive uphill battle against the means of which the situation was bungled when all this situation needs is a quick arbitration by an appointed agent, ie a judge. All the complications with paypal are simply secondstate to the prime issue of the exchange of goods for currency.

[Fortress_Maximus]

1. Pay Pal asked Ben So to fax over PROOF OF SHIPPING documentation for out transaction. He was unable to do so

This hasn't exactly been clarified.  Wouldn't a signed statement from the receiver that the shipment has been received be sufficient?  I understand that Paypal's procedures are about as clear as mud, but a signed document from the receiving person should speak volumes.

**Nope paypal wants signature and delivery confirmation if you use USPS. Also you need to have an upgraded account otherwise it doesn't matter if you have the required documents, you will still lose the monies. The monies will be returned to the sender despite the fact you (the seller and shipper of the items sold) will get hosed. Learned that after paypal returned the funds to him and I had an hour long conversation with the oh so helpful customer service. Mind you, when I called in the past and spoke to the management they would not tell me truthfully (despite repeatedly asking) that even though I could provide the documents, it would NOT matter, b/c the funds would still get returned to Bryan. This is completely beyond my control and his, however, it does NOT change the fact he has the monies he owes me (either in the funds in his account or from the proceeds from the sale of the items I sold him) and now really has not paid anything.**

I find this smelly as it appears that neither one was asked for nor one offered.  Though I may be misunderstanding the requirements.

**I asked he didn't want one.**

2. Why did Ben ask for a second payment?

Did he know something about the first that hasn't been mentioned?  Just from reading Brian's post, I am of the impression that Ben failed to understand the situation and paniced when the money wasn't in his hands right away.  I may be reading between the lines, but that's the impression I got.

**Why? Well after a month of fighting with paypal nothing was getting resolved. I did not panic, eventually more than a month passed and still nothing. Exactly how long do you think it would've been reasonable for me to wait for the monies? Mind you during this same time period he goes all stealth and stops communicating how exactly does that show he intended to work with me on this? Also all of this is a seriously moot point now b/c he now IS in possession of both the monies and the items sold. And I am in possession of neither.**

3. Why did Ben make demands and threats to a businessman who was obviously bending over backwards to help him?

In my experience that behaviour gets people stopping whatever help and assistance they are offering.

This leads into another point - Ben should apologize for this.  At the very least, it should grease the machine and start things moving again.  Bryan's made a lot of demands, but a simple apology should go a long way.  Long enough that some of the more outrageous demands be dropped and the money shows up faster.

**I leave the small claims courts to determine this. For now I will not apologize and neither should anyone on MW, if anything the MW community was helping me by raising my attention to his ebay auctions and some kind people actually helped contact him, but interestingly enough when the questions asked turned to me, he stopped replying promptly.**

4. His eBay name is viviere. 181 feedback with 97 percent positive, and that is not counting the feedback Ben So had reversed.

When did the 3% negative comments occur?  Earlier than, or at the same time as Ben's Paypal account was frozen?  I ask this, because of the 'conspiracy theory' going down in the thread.  Another client may have filed a grievance with Paypal that led to Ben's account being frozen.

It may also be indicative of Ben's transaction nature - giving credence to Bryan's claims.

**The ebay feedback has NOTHING to do with our transaction on MW. Also for a fact I did not use paypal on ebay during the same period as our transaction. The 3% negatives if you really need to know happened over a year ago. If you want more information, view all the feedback and then read it and then visit the url in the posted comments. If you need the original emails I still got them b/c I know people love to read about them. But again, none of this matters b/c the paypal account I have is not for ebay. In fact I do not like to use paypal on ebay, at most just for MW and other forums. There IS no connection between what I do and did in the PAST on ebay and MW. Bryan's "100%" feedback on ebay means nothing to me and it should mean nothing to anyone else either, b/c it has nothing to do with THIS SPECIFIC TRANSACTION ON MW. No correlation.

Furthermore, I was not selling anything to anyone on ebay during the time period of our transaction. And most importantly, do you even know why he knows I have an ebay account? I HAD to contact him via ebay's contact user form on one of his Macross related auctions, precisely b/c he was ignoring any and all calls to his cel phone, this include messages left, refused to reply to all pms through MW and emails, and refused to reply to paypal payment requests sent through paypal as well. It is ONLY b/c other MW users brought the fact he was selling items on ebay that I knew he was even alive AND selling some of the same items I sold him. And it is ONLY b/c I contacted him via ebay that he replied! Oh and bear in mind this, MW was the ONLY place we communicated from regularly, not email and despite his claims of sending them I never received any, not that it matters b/c he had every opportunity to either call of visit MW, but chose not to. We did not communicate regularly via cellphone, it was MW's pms. He deliberately avoided logining in during his "absence" to reply to pms. So given how he refused to communicate with me through MW, or cellphone or paypal, what would you have done?

As for the freezing of the funds in my paypal account it was directly due to his account. You can ask how is this possible? Well first of all I had very little funds in my account prior to what Bryan sent. What the hell is there is investigate or freeze if I have a mere $76.19 prior to his payment? Second of all, the management told me the hold was not a routine hold or "random hold" it was flagged b/c the funds Bryan used from HIS paypal account were in question. Third, none of any of the other funds people sent me during the same period were in question. Fourth, none of the funds I sent other people during the same period were in question. This entire situation is akin to a bounced check except instead of an institution fining him they are just returning the monies to him.**

5. I will cut you a MO once Pay Pal sends me a check for my money in October.

My interpretation of this is that Bryan's money (or the money that was paid to Ben and later returned) is still locked up in Paypal pergatory.  Even without the 'requests' and if things had been resolved and the money sent, since the money would still be locked until October (or August) it wouldn't arrive any time soon.

I had a point... lost it in typing this.  I think I wanted to mention something about Brian would still have to wait a few months for the money.  Beer and late at night.  Not a good combination for clarity of thought!

Anyhow, these are some questions I'd like answered, as it will clarify things greatly for me.  thank you.

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**Regardless of when paypal sends him monies be it in October 2006 or 2007, that is not my concern, nor should it be. He has the funds directly gained from the sales of the items he NOW definitely has NOT paid for. If the judge finds I must wait until those exact funds are released then I will abide, however, I remain skeptical the judge will do so.**

Edited June 2, 2006 by Fortress_Maximus

[Fortress_Maximus]

Uh - some legal requirements:

Proof of purchase: Fort-Max still has HIS original purchase receipt of the item in question?

**Absolutely. Got the USPS receipt it was mailed AND the insurance stub stamped for February 14, 2006.**

Proof of sending: For-Max has written proof (the way-bill or other documentation) proving he sent the object?

Proof of receiving: fort Max has written proof that the object was received?

**Nope, but Bryan repeated verified he received the items. **

Without these things, legal people will consider the claim as a load of hot-air and dismiss it.

Sketchley -> has had experience dealing with insurance adjusters and 'small claims' ...

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[Fortress_Maximus]

If he thinks he has a solid defense claiming "it's all paypal's fault" then he won't mind telling that to a judge in a small claims court. His long-winded and quite childish response has more emotion than substantial fact in it. By holding FM's money from a bad transaction until he meets some warped "guidelines" is borderline extortion.

FM, take him to court.

Let him cry to the judge about how it's all paypal's fault. It's your evidence against his and the preponderance of evidence at the moment: He has the items and the money, FM has nothing. FM owes him nothing, HE owes FM his money or his items back.

Drop the F'ing hammer.

Edit: oh and make sure to print out that response and use it in court. It's a public statement on a public message board and it contains, for lack of a better term, his entire "defense strategy".

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Thanks for the ideas JsARCLIGHT; I absolutely intend to file a claim with the small claims court. His comments are priceless I am certain the judge will find them enlightening.

[Fortress_Maximus]

The only time Bryan starts acting patently wrong here is when FM gets Bryan's money refunded back to Bryan through some Paypal error.  There's absolutely no logic in his actions following that.  In fact, Bryan's actions post refund almost make you wonder if he didn't call in the transaction in the first place and initiate this problem due to his better understanding of how Paypal works... but that's all conspiracy theory talk.  I mean, if you used a credit card style Paypal transaction, and then called the credit card directly to initiate a chargeback, I'll bet the credit card would then contact Paypal, thus Paypal would start a fraud investigation on the initiator's request, then after the shipper not being able to prove the item was shipped after so many days they would refund the purchaser their money...

I never thought of this b/c he didn't use a credit card to pay for the items I was selling. I don't possess the upgraded paypal accepting credit and debit card account.

[jenius]

I never thought of this b/c he didn't use a credit card to pay for the items I was selling. I don't possess the upgraded paypal accepting credit and debit card account.

Well all said, it's good to hear that this probably didn't start off as an attempt to screw you... just lame it ended up that way.

[do not disturb]

i've dealt with both bryan and FM, both were trades(which means a heck more to me than a straight sale or purchase) and i didn't have any problems with either of them. both of them are good guys and both have had more than their fair share of trades and sales with other members here.

i know when some shady crap happens here, people start busting out conspiracy theories(jenius, you're more paranoid than me! ) and ready to kill but its seems they are communicating to a certain degree so how about we just back off and let them work things out?

and just for the sake of civility, if you want to share your feelings with either FM or bryan, just PM them cause making opinionated posts isn't helping either of them, only causing more problems between the 2 of them.

just my 2 cents.

[yellowlightman]

Jesus christ FM, it's MONEY.

MONEY.

Not monies.

[sketchley]

There is an exception: if he receives money in different currencies. Though I highly doubt that is the case.

Thanks for the clarifications. They shed a lot of light onto the truth of the situation.

[Fortress_Maximus]

Jesus christ FM, it's MONEY.

MONEY.

Not monies.

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Actually it is both.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=monies

Thanks.

[sketchley]

FM - what currencies are you due to receive the monies?

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=ja&lr=&defl...nition&ct=title

[Sharrdd]

If the money is in limbo (stuck in some suspended account) I'd sue paypal in small claims.

If you're in California:

>>>...Federal Court in Case C-02-1227 JF (Pvt) in 2002 said the following with respect to the User Agreement? "Having considered the terms of the User Agreement generally and the arbitration clause in particular, as well as the totality of the circumstances, the Court concludes that the User Agreement and arbitration clause are substantively unconscionable under California law and that arbitration cannot be compelled herein."<<<

[ShadowerV2]

So this Bryan fellow wants everyone who said something to apologise or Ben won't get the money back and he wants Ben to beg for it?

If that's the person he is, there's nothing to defame really.

[VF-ZX2]

Ok-I just went through this thread after having a spare hour in my life that I had to fill with something. I can see both sides here, and having been to small claims court over mail fraud before, neither of you have a strong enough case. It will most likely be dismissed unless you clear some things up or can print proof of your hassles with Paypal.

First, from what I make of it Bryan did send payment which FM received. FM sent the items which Bryan received. The transaction was finished until Paypal intervened. They froze both accounts and demanded that FM send proof of shipping. Paypal does have unreasonable terms and I learned them the hard way. According to their policies unless there is signed proof, there is no evidence. I lost several hundred dollars to a buyer that said told Paypal he never received my item. I had USPS delivery confirmation, but because there was no signed proof I lost the case. Anyway, the accounts were frozen and the story is pretty black and white up to this point. (Yes, Paypal will randomly freeze accounts.) FM decides that he would like the items or a second payment, but because the money is in his Paypal account Bryan has a right to refuse to do so. Yes, he cannot touch the money, but it is still legally in his account. I don't think Bryan was in anyway obligated to send him another payment as he already sent one and is himself having problems with finances. Now things start getting shady. FM continues to request items or money from Bryan, but Bryan stops responding to emails etc... Bryan is still listing things on ebay and doing business. I understand being very busy with a small business and maybe going MIA for 2 weeks. Bryan goes MIA on MW for months and everyone starts jumping to conclusions and speculating about how Bryan is out to get FM. It seems to me in this point in Bryan's life he is unable to access his money in his paypal account and he may be forced to sell his collection to get by. He has a right to sell the LV and CF because he paid for them, so they are therefore his property and living in a capitalist country he has a right to sell them for and as he pleases. By now tensions and stress are high because both parties are being screwed by Paypal which totally sucks. I have spent hours on the phone with "representatives" and "customer service". It's pretty bad. In fact, someday when the Paypal building is burned down by disgruntled revolutionaries I won't be in the least surprised. Here in the story Bryan isn't responding to FM's attempts at correspondence which is just bad business.

Ok, so then somehow, FM's frozen money is refunded to Bryan. Right here everything should have been solved by Bryan finding a way to get that money back to FM, but we forget to realize that at this time Bryan's money in Paypal is still frozen. So tides have turned and Bryan owes FM either the money or the items. Since he doesn't have access to his Paypal account he can't send that. Some may say well he sold many things on evilbay, so he should be able to pay back FM with that money, but with Bryans Paypal account being frozen and his business being stopped DE FACTO (for you latin speaking folks) he may be selling his collection to get by and survive in the harsh world of LA (never been but I've played GTA San Andreas and it looks pretty rough).

Now this could have all been solved by Bryan sending the money he was refunded back to FM (if he could get to it), but he wanted apology for defamation of character. Yes, if he sent the money back he would deserve an apology, but he is legally unable to hold the money ransom for an apology. (If you decide to go small claims kung-fu, this is your best piece of evidence because it implicates that -1. he knows FM is due a refund- 2. he is in a position and has the money to be able to send a refund- and 3. He refuses to give the refund due to a phony case of libel.

All in all FM would be best to ask one more time for a refund. (Save both your letter /be polite and professional/ and his response for court purposes) Small claims court is expensive and the case isn't strong unless you can get hard proof that Paypal did indeed refund the money to Bryan's account. If you do decide to go the small claims court way do it in your city so he is unlikely to show up and you will win the settlement. if he does show up the case is likely to be dismissed.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Small claims court is expensive and the case isn't strong unless you can get hard proof that Paypal did indeed refund the money to Bryan's account. If you do decide to go the small claims court way do it in your city so he is unlikely to show up and you will win the settlement. if he does show up the case is likely to be dismissed.

405789[/snapback]

That is not exactly all true. Small Claims court is not a "true" legal court proceedure, it is simply a public place of arbitration overseen by a state appointed arbiter or "judge" of which it's outcome is legally binding. Full legal precidence and order do not apply to small claims court as it is a "people's court" and as such "strong evidence" is not as important as "compelling evidence". The court has no means to certify evidence so there is no way to have true "binding evidence" in a legal sense. All both sides need is the complete record of their transaciton along with doccumentaiton of all communication. Both sides should present all printouts of the correspondance with paypal and printouts of their account histories resultant to this problem. Those pieces in and of themselves should be enough "compelling evidence" for an arbiter or judge to decide. Including this exchange here on the board is simply testiment to character of both parties.

Also small claims court is NOT expensive. Court fees hardly ever reach above $75 in almost all municipalities. Here in missouri, small claims court filing fees are only $10 plus the cost of mailing a certified letter (the summons). Small Claims is only expensive if your state allows appeal, in that case it must be remanded to a higher court which does then involve quite a bit of money... it should be pointed out that rarely if ever do small claims cases get appealed because the cost to appeal greatly outweighs the maximum ammount small claims cases generally handle.

Also all of small claims cases are decided, none are simply "dismissed". Cases that appear to be "dismissed" are actually a judgement for the defendant.

As requested by a member on the board I am further recusing myself from posting direct instructions to either party in this matter but I will answer any and all questions in reguard to proceedure via PM.

[KiriK]

wow... drama rama... haha... just read through some of this... g'luck to ya'lls....

[Totoro242]

Hey, now we know what Bryan Davis is up to...

sfgate.com

[Hikuro]

Ya know, a few weeks ago I got an email saying someone logged into my paypal account. Course I'm hip on those fraud emails so I went on paypal.com itself not the link on the email and looked around, nothing was messed with, everything was A-Ok.

But before all that, well over a month ago, I purchased my Anakin costume from Signapore for 300 dollars....my account was frozen, not only that but my bank account as well.

Oddly enough before I even knew all of that, after having paypal problems, I was still able to go shopping, buy a new pair of shoes and go to walmart to buy some Transformers. Yet, later my account was deemed closed off.

So I had a long lengthy talk with my bank and a fraud protection agency who settled the whole matter and told 'em I appreciate their effort, but if someone was going to go thru my account I'd find out pretty quickly and would of called you.

I've pretty much kept my Ebaying to a VERY down low since then.

[VF-ZX2]

The Easterners have a word for that window blowing out.

It's called karma

[thegunny]

The list of suspects would read like a phone book of half the world's population