bryan_f_davis@yahoo.com Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Just found out that PAY PAL randomly FROZE MY ACCOUNT until I verify all this BS. Absurd things like, please find all these random items you mailed to people over the last 3 months and list the tracking numbers. We want to run a full credit check on you. We need your social security number. Fax us your utility bills. Sperm samples. You first born child... WTF? I have been using Pay Pal for over 1.5 years now. I have over 180 verified transactions. 550 ebay transactions. Not a single report filed against me. Nothing. And, out of the blue, they pull this crap out of nowhere. When I tried to call them, I they were of course closed. I will call them in the morning, jump through all their hoops. Hoops, by the way, that will take hours upon hours to jump through. If you work for a living, there is no possible way in hell you can jump through everything! Unless you miss work. But that's not what chaps my butt. What really makes me mad, is, all the while, the listings I have on eBay are PAYMENT TAKEN ONLY WITH IMMEDIATE PAY PAL PAYMENT. So, no one can pay for my auctions, cause my account is frozen, and eBay, which owns pay pal, is collecting money on stuff I cannot even sell! ITS A SCAM!!! Over the last few months, I have DEPENDED on this income! I am in a wonderful world of you know what over this! I have over 550 eBay transactions, 100 percent positive (I got one negative, but after the buyer left the feedback, he emailed me, apologized, and worked with Square Trade to have it removed). I am also Pay Pal verified with 180 verifed Pay Pal transactions. Not one complaint. So, why is Pay Pal pulling this crap on me? In the past, I would see some one's account has been frozen, and it would raise all kinds of flags with me. Now, I am wondering, is this horrendous act of malovence protocol? Has anyone ever heard of this happening to anyone else before? This is really making me upset. Oh, well. I can't do anything now. I have to wait until they're open. If there are others upset with Pay Pal, please let me know. I am so furious, that I am thinking about legal action. Basic point of contention: if Pay Pal needed all this information, they should demmand it up front previous to anyone opening an account. Do not pull this crap after someone with a very, very honorable reputation lists 19 items, and cannot sell them because EBAY AND PAY PAL ARE RUNNING A ILL DEVISED SCAM. BEWARE of PAY PAL! VOID AT ALL COSTS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryan_f_davis@yahoo.com Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 I forgot to mention... MOST OF THE ON LINE "SOLUTIONS" to get the account re-instated DO NOT WORK. It takes up to 30 DAYS for them to answer emails if you have a question. If you are lucky enough to find their hidden phone number, it is NOT 24 hours. Slick. Very un-snap. And I was just building enough $$$ to buy back my valkyrie collection. Double un-snap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaajin Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 (edited) you sure you didnt receive one of those paypal scam e-mails that were intended to "steal" your log in info to paypal website? Whatever it is, do not click on the link provided by any paypal e-mail (even if its the real ones). Just open up a new browser, type "www.paypal.com" and log in normally. If in the mail they say that you have some sort of trouble in your account, and you found none when logging in, then you know that its a fraud. Sometimes they even fake paypal's site so that some people who are just too innocent will log in and "donate" their log in info's to the scammers. Just be careful with these kind of scams that have been lingering around in the borderless internet world; even in our beloved macrossworld. aaajin PS : if that's the case, then I'd suggest you to change your password and wahtever info pertaining to logging in to paypal's website IMMEDIATELY or you'll lose tons of money dude. This has never happened to me; just a friendly advice. Edited January 23, 2006 by aaajin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdf-1 Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Hey, are you 100% sure it's nothing like this? http://www.fightidentitytheft.com/paypal_scam.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robokochan Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Almost the sameexactthing happened to me. They froze my account. Their reason: We find it suspicious that someone would pay over $1000.00 for a single toy. BTW at the time I had about $3000.00 in paypal when they froze it. It had been a big business week. Anyway after fighting and fighting they kept the account frozen. 6 months later they sent me a check for the money in my account. Paypal is lovely. A tip to keep it from happening sellers......always make sure the buyer puts what the money is for! If it is under "service" Paypal will suspect something... I still use Paypal..but I am cautious now and I don't keep more than a few hundred dollars in the account at a time. I hope it works out for you. In the end most likely they will win. Also if you do get ahold of someone about your account make sure they state clearly the reason they are doing this. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFrenchOne Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 (edited) Damn, the more i learn about paypal the less i feel confortable to use it. http://paypalsucks.com/ Edited January 23, 2006 by TheFrenchOne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robokochan Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 that is priceless FrenchOne! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryan_f_davis@yahoo.com Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 Hey guys! Pay Pal froze my account because I was selling too much stuff on eBay, and it alarmed them. I have over 560 feedback on eBay. All 100 percent positive. I have over 180 verified Pay Pal transactions. Not one complaint from a buyer or seller in either Pay Pal or eBay. I even have a pay pal line of credit. Get this. They had a list of crap they wanted me to do that was 10 miles long. There was so much to do, I had to take a day off work (which I really can't afford), and I STILL did NOT get it all done. No one on the phone knew what was going on. They gave me an email, which, by the way, is a total bogus email. It got sent back to me saying Pay Pal does not accept emails when they freeze people's accounts. You are at the total mercey of the Nazis who run the company. It's total BS. I had several people who scammed me, and they hardly lifted a finger to do anything about it. But the second one of their honest sellers "sells too much" on eBay, they do CREDIT CHECKS, CHECK YOU SSN number, verify 20 random purchases (I had to look stuff up from almost 6 months ago!) It was beyond absurd! My account will be frozen for weeks, while they investigate me. In the mean time, my eBay auctions, which are PAYMENT ONLY TAKEN IF YOU PAY WITH PAY PAL, are wasting away, with no one able to bid. Did you eBay owns Pay Pal? No, it's not someone trying to fish my information. It is a scam though. From eBay and Pay Pal. I will never keep any more than a few dollars in that account, ever again. In the mean time, I cannot refund money to my customers, I have no access to my cash, and the 560 feedback that I busted my rear to earn is in dire jeopardy. Damn, I am so pissed. This is ABSURD. So, Macrossworld members, beware of the CON that is ebay and Pay Pal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdf-1 Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 That's some serious BS indeed. Totally unbelievable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeo-mare Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I do a ton of ebay sales and purchases i hope i never have to got through anything like this, i hope you can correct this soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortress_Maximus Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Ok, good advice I will definitely remember this! Sorry to hear about your situations guys, they all are farted up! Also since we are on the topic, what alternative forms of online payment have you guys used for both domestic and international payments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaajin Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Ok, good advice I will definitely remember this! Sorry to hear about your situations guys, they all are farted up! Also since we are on the topic, what alternative forms of online payment have you guys used for both domestic and international payments? 363531[/snapback] its well advertised in the paypalsucks website Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totoro242 Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Get some of your money back! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5550334/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die, Alien Scum! Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 If possible, you should just cancel your current PayPal account and start a new one with a different e-mail address. Yeah, you'd lose the 180+ transactions, but at least you could get back to business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodiano Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 It is sad that these companies work this way!! IT´S A TOTAL SCAM! It sucks that Bidpay is not working any more simple money orders very easy you pay for the service and the seller receives a Money order which can be traced! But the service is close nos making Auction payments more difficult! PAY PAL total scam also EBAY is not that good so many things happen there and that freakin company doesn´t worry about solving those issues! Take care, Roberto If possible, you should just cancel your current PayPal account and start a new one with a different e-mail address. Yeah, you'd lose the 180+ transactions, but at least you could get back to business. 363592[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortress_Maximus Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Ok, good advice I will definitely remember this! Sorry to hear about your situations guys, they all are farted up! Also since we are on the topic, what alternative forms of online payment have you guys used for both domestic and international payments? 363531[/snapback] its well advertised in the paypalsucks website 363532[/snapback] I meant besides those alternatives! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryan_f_davis@yahoo.com Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 I just got an email from pay pal. My account will be frozen 30 to 90 days while they investigate. I am so fed up with this crap. How can a person make an honest living when they pull this crap? Is is beyone absurd. Stay away from Pay Pal at all costs.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryan_f_davis@yahoo.com Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 That is awesome! This is the crap they are pulling with me. Only, the settlement ended in 2004. No more claims are accepted. Drat. Who wants to file another class action suit against Pay Pal? Let's sue them to the point they actually become a legitimate business and quit conning money out of honest, hard working people. I hate these bastards. Excuse my language, but NO ONE should have to go through this. EVER. Email me if you want to help me file a joint complaint with the better business bearu and the attourney general. Get some of your money back!http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5550334/ 363584[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinmoons Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 (edited) I have always hated PayPal because I feel that it is a rip-off to start with. Their processing fees are much higher than credit cards and their service is some of the worst in any business. You have to jump through 20 hoops just to get to their phone number. It's ridiculous and appalling that they just froze your account without even a previous warning or letting you know that they were going to do so, especially when it's your main source of accepting payments from your ebay account. I can't believe the amount of info they requested from you. They froze our account about a year ago for absolutely no reason claiming that they did it for "security". It was frozen for 3 days and they requested that we fax them a bunch of info about our business. So for 3 days we couldn't take PayPal payments on our site (maybe that was a blessing). Then a while back, there was a guy who had obviously stolen someone's paypal account and he placed this huge international order on our site. His shipping address was in one country and the PayPal account was from someone across the globe. Account was totally unverified too. There was no way I was gonna ship that order, so I tried to refund the transaction. Lo and behold they had disabled the refund feature saying that there was an issue with the person's account. So I email them telling them that there is no way I'm going to ship to this person and I want their payment refunded and they tell me to "resolve this with the buyer". Being that the buyer was a crook and they never responded to my emails, and the fact that the refund feature was turned off on their site, I obviously couldn't do that and I had already told them that. But all the incompetent morons do is send you canned emails. Suffice it to say that it took a WEEK for them to finally refund the payment. PayPal sux and I hope people would stop using them. The little convenience that they provide is far outweighed by their horrible service. Edited January 25, 2006 by twinmoons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
do not disturb Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 these are some tips when using paypal.... 1. open a checking acct at some random bank you don't have an established acct at. for example, if you have an acct at HSBC, open a checking acct. at Chase specifically for paypal and paypal only. be sure to pick a bank that is in no way affilitated with your personal bank, and make sure its close by so you can have easy access to your money. 2. after you receive funds into your paypal acct., quickly transfer the funds into your checking acct. whatever you do, do not leave the money sitting there. 3. when you receive notification that the transfer has cleared, go to your bank(Chase) and withdraw the funds(in cash) as quickly as possible. whatever you do, DO NOT do it electronically. physically go into the bank and withdraw the funds at the counter(i wouldn't use ATM's either), then take your money and deposit it into your regular bank acct. while all this seems a bit absured, doing this insures that even if they freeze your acct, they can't freeze up your real bank acct. and ruin your life. they can only freeze the bank acct that is set up in their system which should only have the minimum balance needed to keep it open. hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatula Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Reading this, I don't think I want to put in my bank information to them anymore. Well it looks like money orders are the way to go for anything on Ebay now. So how secure are money orders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangaioh Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Reading this, I don't think I want to put in my bank information to them anymore. Well it looks like money orders are the way to go for anything on Ebay now. So how secure are money orders? 364493[/snapback] They are not that bad, I recommend making snap shots of the Money Order and the envelope it is going into. I recommend using the tips and tricks used to package an item in the SSL, for stufffing money orders into envelopes, and request for tracking and signatures, even if it does come out of your pocket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryan_f_davis@yahoo.com Posted February 1, 2006 Author Share Posted February 1, 2006 Pay Pal is just getting worse and worse. They tell me to fax in all these documents. I do. Two days later, they ask me to fax them again. None of the links when I log in to resolve the issues work. There is no email or phone number to contact anyone about this. It is beyond absurd. Now, Pay Pal has told me I have to resolve my conflicts before they can open my page. There has NEVER been a single complaint filed against me EVER. The only complaint I filed was when a man took my money for an engagement ring and ran. Pay Pal let that guy go, I never got that money back. But now, when an honest customer is doing well, they kick him in the christian parts. I am a verified with Pay Pal. I have over 182 verified transactions. 569 ebay transactions. All 100 percent positive. No complaints on either side. I have a Pay Pal buyer credit account. I have sent in over 80 pages of documents. It's been over 10 days, and all I get is Pay Pal asking me to fax over more and more and more documents. Sheesh. All macross world members...stay away from Pay Pal. THey are the epitome of evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortress_Maximus Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 (edited) Found this, hope it helps others. Call paypal toll-free at: 1-888-221-1161 4:00 AM PST to 10:00 PM PST Monday through Friday 6:00 AM PST to 8:00 PM PST on Saturday and Sunday Edited February 1, 2006 by Fortress_Maximus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortress_Maximus Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Hey H. I also advocate doing the first two steps, but I am more lax on the third. Paypal doesn't have the ability to free your linked bank account and the funds within it do they? Also, wondering why shouldn't people withdraw funds from the banks ATM and only at the counter? What are some of the pros and cons of doing so in your opinion. Thanks! these are some tips when using paypal....1. open a checking acct at some random bank you don't have an established acct at. for example, if you have an acct at HSBC, open a checking acct. at Chase specifically for paypal and paypal only. be sure to pick a bank that is in no way affilitated with your personal bank, and make sure its close by so you can have easy access to your money. 2. after you receive funds into your paypal acct., quickly transfer the funds into your checking acct. whatever you do, do not leave the money sitting there. 3. when you receive notification that the transfer has cleared, go to your bank(Chase) and withdraw the funds(in cash) as quickly as possible. whatever you do, DO NOT do it electronically. physically go into the bank and withdraw the funds at the counter(i wouldn't use ATM's either), then take your money and deposit it into your regular bank acct. while all this seems a bit absured, doing this insures that even if they freeze your acct, they can't freeze up your real bank acct. and ruin your life. they can only freeze the bank acct that is set up in their system which should only have the minimum balance needed to keep it open.  hope that helps. 364040[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
do not disturb Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 regarding the 3rd tip, its just me being paranoid/safe, however you want to look at it. i have no idea what paypal is capable of so why not take extra precautions to protect myself? the company is notorious for locking accts and ruining peoples lives without any rhyme or reason. for all we know, if you do a simple money transfer and paypal feels like you're up to no good, they could contact both banks and freeze both your accts. i don't actually know if this is possible but why take the chance? like i always say, its not paranoia when they're really out to get you, and in bryanfdavis case, they're really out to get him. Hey H. I also advocate doing the first two steps, but I am more lax on the third. Paypal doesn't have the ability to free your linked bank account and the funds within it do they? Also, wondering why shouldn't people withdraw funds from the banks ATM and only at the counter? What are some of the pros and cons of doing so in your opinion. Thanks! these are some tips when using paypal....1. open a checking acct at some random bank you don't have an established acct at. for example, if you have an acct at HSBC, open a checking acct. at Chase specifically for paypal and paypal only. be sure to pick a bank that is in no way affilitated with your personal bank, and make sure its close by so you can have easy access to your money. 2. after you receive funds into your paypal acct., quickly transfer the funds into your checking acct. whatever you do, do not leave the money sitting there.  3. when you receive notification that the transfer has cleared, go to your bank(Chase) and withdraw the funds(in cash) as quickly as possible. whatever you do, DO NOT do it electronically. physically go into the bank and withdraw the funds at the counter(i wouldn't use ATM's either), then take your money and deposit it into your regular bank acct. while all this seems a bit absured, doing this insures that even if they freeze your acct, they can't freeze up your real bank acct. and ruin your life. they can only freeze the bank acct that is set up in their system which should only have the minimum balance needed to keep it open.  hope that helps. 364040[/snapback] 365569[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortress_Maximus Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 That makes sense, I will consider doing the third step in the future. I am still concerned, can paypal lock a bank account that is linked to a user's account? Anyone know for certain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryan_f_davis@yahoo.com Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 We are going on day #11 I had to fax in 91 more pages. So far, that's 181 pages that has been faxed in. It took me almost 7 hours to research all the "new information" they requested. I had to call in to work twice now to jump through all the hoops. And, despite the new 91 page fax, I still get emails asking for information that I already sent in 6 times now. No one on the phones knows whats going on, the supervisors cannot help you and there is no number or email to talk to anyone who does! THis is getting absurd! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s_i_t_h_l_o_r_d Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I feel for ya bro! eBay & Paypal are the great evils on the web they rack up fees and it's getting harder for sellers to sell their merchendise and lousy servie for both customers and sellers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortress_Maximus Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Try these: http://paypalsucks.com/faqs.shtml Their toll free number is (888) 221-1161 - personally verified by experience of the admin of this site. Their NEW regular telephone number is: (650) 864-8000 - (verify) An automated phone number is 402-935-7733 (verified by admin) Another regular telephone number is: (402)935-2050 - (verify) 408 376 7400 fax: 408-376-7514 (Verified by Whois) One of their fax numbers is: (402)537-5765 - (unverified, but probably good) Another fax number is: (650)251-1101 - (verified via whois search) The entire block of phone numbers from (402)935-2100 to (402)935-2299 seems to be all PayPal's. This list of PayPal phone numbers was created by a user of PayPalSucks.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortress_Maximus Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Also in case people qualify for the class action here is some info: http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/CAND/FAQ.nsf/...a1?OpenDocument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryan_f_davis@yahoo.com Posted February 7, 2006 Author Share Posted February 7, 2006 The PAY PAL nightmare continues. After 2.5 weeks, 180 pages faxed in, 36 phone calls, 23 emails, I finally get my account opened. For less than 48 hours. Then I get another email from Pay Pal. They are going to freeze my account again, and hold my money ransom for SIX MONTHS. WHILE THEY ARE EARNING INTEREST on it. I cannot touch it. ALMOST ALL MY MONEY was in that account. How can they expect a person to survive if nearly all their money is frozen for a minimum of SIX SOLD MONTHS???? Worse, I was told it MAY EVEN BE LONGER than six months. If they spent a fraction of this energy going after the guy who stole the money I sent for my fiance's ring, I would have had my money back long ago. Instead, Pal Pal lets the REAL CROOKS get away, while they crucify the honest peson. I have nearly 200 verified Pay Pal transactions. A line of credit through Pay Pal. 560 ebay feedback, all 100 percent positive, and NEVER EVER one single complaint filed against me, EVER. None of this is taken into consideration. Pay Pal does not care. They want to earn interest on your money that you cannot use for SIX MONTHS. This is criminal. DO NOT USE PAY PAL. EVER. I am going to a lawyer. At least I was able to pay Fortress before they stole my money. BEWARE OF PAY PAL MACROSSWORLD fans. STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM THEM AT ALL COSTS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortress_Maximus Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 (edited) I am encountering problems with them. They FROZE MY FUNDS as well. F*ckers! When I called they claimed it was b/c of questionable source of funding! a-holes! No one complained neither Bryan or myself and then 22 days after the fact these SOBs pull this SH*T on me?! BASTARDS! I could understand them investigating if a credit card was used, but that was not the case with our transactions. So WTF are they investigating?! Bryan I need you to contact these SOBs ASAP! Read my pm and reply! Thanks. Anyone else have a similar problem?! Please share! Thank you. Edited March 9, 2006 by Fortress_Maximus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante74 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Damn, I just opened an account with Paypal... I don't have all the money I own in it tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 After being ripped off by Mechfag AKA Mechafreak AKA Mr. Medina of Sanford, FL, I follow those exact tips from Haterist. I reached to the same conclusion as he did. I put in protocols in case paypal screws me. I have only $5 to $20 in my bank account I opened. Once I get money, I quickly write a check and deposit it to my other bank. Yes I agree I hate having more paper work but it will save me when I have to battle Paypal. regarding the 3rd tip, its just me being paranoid/safe, however you want to look at it. i have no idea what paypal is capable of so why not take extra precautions to protect myself? the company is notorious for locking accts and ruining peoples lives without any rhyme or reason. for all we know, if you do a simple money transfer and paypal feels like you're up to no good, they could contact both banks and freeze both your accts. i don't actually know if this is possible but why take the chance?  like i always say, its not paranoia when they're really out to get you, and in bryanfdavis case, they're really out to get him.  Hey H. I also advocate doing the first two steps, but I am more lax on the third. Paypal doesn't have the ability to free your linked bank account and the funds within it do they? Also, wondering why shouldn't people withdraw funds from the banks ATM and only at the counter? What are some of the pros and cons of doing so in your opinion. Thanks! these are some tips when using paypal....1. open a checking acct at some random bank you don't have an established acct at. for example, if you have an acct at HSBC, open a checking acct. at Chase specifically for paypal and paypal only. be sure to pick a bank that is in no way affilitated with your personal bank, and make sure its close by so you can have easy access to your money. 2. after you receive funds into your paypal acct., quickly transfer the funds into your checking acct. whatever you do, do not leave the money sitting there.  3. when you receive notification that the transfer has cleared, go to your bank(Chase) and withdraw the funds(in cash) as quickly as possible. whatever you do, DO NOT do it electronically. physically go into the bank and withdraw the funds at the counter(i wouldn't use ATM's either), then take your money and deposit it into your regular bank acct. while all this seems a bit absured, doing this insures that even if they freeze your acct, they can't freeze up your real bank acct. and ruin your life. they can only freeze the bank acct that is set up in their system which should only have the minimum balance needed to keep it open.  hope that helps. 364040[/snapback] 365569[/snapback] 365577[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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