End of Evangelion.

[triggerhappytonks]

I never got the ending of END OF EVANGELION, why did the all the poeple forming big Rei die? The neck like popped or something, what the F**K just happened?

[Keith]

That was actually the body of Lilith (search previous topics to understand more) being shed away. Basically Lilith was the god that came to Earth, split in two (one half also being named Lilith, the other being named Adam), both sides crashed thier "eggs" into the surface (Lilith's in what would become Tokyo-3, Adam's in Antarctica), and from those eggs spilling the LCL that would evolve into two similar, but distinctly different forms of life.

Long story short, Seele wanted to rejoin themselves with the original god form of Lilith (pre-seperation & crashing into the surface) because they believed that it was the more perfect "evolved" form of life, after humans had stagnated in their evolutionary process. So by joining the Lilith side (body on the cross in Terminal Dogma, who's soul was used to create Rei Ayanami. The only clone of which being Eva Unit-01, whom contained the soul of Yui Ikari), with the Adam side (body reduced to an embryo duing Second Impact, Gendo later taking this embryo & embedding it into his hand so that he could become a god by joining with Lilith in his own agenda to be with Yui. The soul being that which was used to create Kaworu Nagisa. The rest of the Eva series being clones of this side as well), they would re-create the original god, and then join back together with it in one sentient liquid existence where there is no individuality.

Once this process was started, Lilith (agian the Rei/Kaworu aka Lilith/Adam combination) gathered everyone into the Lilith egg by tearing down their AT fields & reducing them to their basic LCL (body & soul). Once this was done, Lilith too joined in with them into the egg (and as such shed her body which is the scene you're referring to).

Now after this, Shnji was given the choice as to whether life would continue in this "single form" existence, or return to the "community form" existence. He decided though no one would be able to hurt each other in the "single form," it was really much of an eistence at all, and so everyone spilled back out of the Lilith egg into the ocean where they would all regain their forms in time, the frist of which we see being Shinji & Asuka.

Now mind you this is the "short" version of events

[UN Spacy]

I'm keeping out of this thread......it's been known to give my head brain freeze in the past.

[Phyrox]

Which is why I have always liked the series ending best.

I have read so many varying interpretations of EoE, that at times I forget what it is I think happened.

I like the animation, I like the drama, action and import of all that happened in the movie, but I find myself more satisfied with the resolution from the series.

Call me crazy...

[Akilae]

IMHO, it's LESS confusing to just go with the TV series ending... although I suppose you have to be able to follow the uber-mentalness of the last two episodes. From what I know, everything after the TV series was made as a physical representation of Shinji's mental state in the last two TV episodes.

In essence, what happened is this: The DEATH and REBIRTH of humans through the actions taken by SEELE and Gendo, with Shinji and Asuka being the new Adam and Eve.

[EDIT] Oh yeah, think of LCL as primordial ooze.

Edited September 29, 2003 by Akilae

[Akilae]

Which is why I have always liked the series ending best.

I have read so many varying interpretations of EoE, that at times I forget what it is I think happened.

I like the animation, I like the drama, action and import of all that happened in the movie, but I find myself more satisfied with the resolution from the series.

Call me crazy...

You're not alone Phyrox =) The TV series ending left much more up the to viewer, and was actually more satisfying and less depressing than the movies... damnit, at least I could convince myself that Shinji FINALLY achieved some sort of spiritual enlightenment on his own...

[zeta]

I figured out Eva a long time ago, and here today I will reveal the mystical secret of the show!

The religious part is pointless, ignore it. And ignore the giant robots as well.

Shinji could very well be a mob hitman, if you watch the show you get what I mean. He just wants to be alone but they pull him back to his job as a hitman/eva pilot. The eva's are just a job as a hitman, and NERV is the family. Rei II is a dream girl he'll never have, Kaworu is the girl (Yeah yeah he's a guy in the show it would make some more sense if he was a woman but meh, bisexuality isnt all that out of the question...) thats perfect, but got killed cause he was in the mob. Asuka is the annoying wife he can't stand, but can't leave. Misato is a friend who is in the family(NERV). Third impact is a culmination of his depression, his self judgement. Oh and Kaji is the FBI informant.

And as for Pen² he's comic relief.

[uminoken]

lol....well put zeta! That's the best synopsis/description I've heard yet

[KingNor]

yeah i got the feeling that the point of the show had nothing to do with the "big picture" in the end, and it was all about shinjis "inner struggles" of being a spineless wuss.

i personaly felt it was kind of a cop out to use a bunch of old footage for the end episodes, i realize they needed to do some rehash of old plot happenings but, they could have re-animated some of the sequences or something.

in short, its a very bizzare ending to what seemed to be a pretty strait forward serise. i'd need to watch it again to say anything more intellegent.

[bob joe mac]

Well

TV ending- Shinji learns piloting EVA's is not his only purpose in life.

EOE- Ummmmm shinji wants to live and uh yeah.

Like others said ignore everything that doesn't have to do with the characters cause it never going to be answeared.

[Mechamaniac]

Follow this link:

http://www.evamonkey.com

and here:

http://www.evamonkey.com/faq_evaotaku.htm

[CoryHolmes]

Personally, I'm rather dissapointed with both the TV ending and the EoE ending. Both left much to be desired in the way of closure for the series.

[Keith]

TV ending & EoE are exactly the same ending. EoE is just done with a bigger budget. And yes, all religious references aren't to be taken literally.

[Gaijin]

TV ending & EoE are exactly the same ending. EoE is just done with a bigger budget.

Exactly. Why people see it as 2 different ones is beyond me. End is the same, one is just the "scenic route".

[Phyrox]

TV ending & EoE are exactly the same ending. EoE is just done with a bigger budget. And yes, all religious references aren't to be taken literally.

I'd really disagree here.

Seems to me at least that the series showed us Shinji making a very personal choice about "instrumentation," and deciding he does have a place in the world.

That humanity continues seems to be the only thing the two have in common...

[Keith]

TV ending & EoE are exactly the same ending. EoE is just done with a bigger budget. And yes, all religious references aren't to be taken literally.

I'd really disagree here.

Seems to me at least that the series showed us Shinji making a very personal choice about "instrumentation," and deciding he does have a place in the world.

That humanity continues seems to be the only thing the two have in common...

The same exact thing happens in the movie. Go rewatch the scene where Rei specifically ask's Shinji which existence he wants to continue in. Right after everyone is finally gathered up into the Egg, specifically, where she's strattling him.

[Phyrox]

In the movie he makes the decision for humanity, in the series he makes a choice for himself.

I see a difference there.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

from what I remeber. At the end of the t.v seires, Shinji accepts instrumentation. Well in the movie he rejects it. <_<

[Phyrox]

from what I remeber. At the end of the t.v seires, Shinji accepts instrumentation. Well in the movie he rejects it.

hmm...interesting.

That last scene, where Ikari Shinji decides that he COULD be happy in a world in which he doesn't pilot EVA, and is congratulated by everyone always seemed to me to indicate that Shinji rejected the idea of giving up his identity.

First of all, the whole episode, and Shinji's realization seem to certainly point to this conclusion.

Secondly, the congratulations he recieves seems to indicate that his friends/family are proud and/or happy that Shinji managed to come to this (supposedly "correct") conclusion.

I'm interested to hear your interpretation.

[Mechamaniac]

from what I remeber. At the end of the t.v seires, Shinji accepts instrumentation. Well in the movie he rejects it.  

hmm...interesting.

That last scene, where Ikari Shinji decides that he COULD be happy in a world in which he doesn't pilot EVA, and is congratulated by everyone always seemed to me to indicate that Shinji rejected the idea of giving up his identity.

First of all, the whole episode, and Shinji's realization seem to certainly point to this conclusion.

Secondly, the congratulations he recieves seems to indicate that his friends/family are proud and/or happy that Shinji managed to come to this (supposedly "correct") conclusion.

I'm interested to hear your interpretation.

That's the way I saw it as well, or this is the way I see it....

In the series, Shinji chose to stay with Complementation. The last two eps are basically about Shinji;s after death stream of consciousness. He is re-living or re-visiting his life, by himself, with memories of past friends popping in here and there. He is alone in a darkened room, kind of like the classic "On trial for your life" scenario. However, once his decision is made, he is all of the sudden not in the darkened room, but surrounded by all his friends, and he says "I understand!I can exist here!". This happens because he realizes that he has self worth as something OTHER than an Eva pilot, and that he is happy to co-exist with everyone else in Complementation. He is then congratulated for his decision, by friends living and dead, including his Father, who he has been trying to connect with all along.

However, the film ends differently. Shinji rejects Complementation and chooses the reality that is the pain of day to day existence. He realizes that he has self worth because of that existence, and basically comes to the realization that Life Sucks - Get a Phuckin Helmet. In short, he matures.

The big difference between the series, and the film is that in the Series, EVERYONE is in Complementation, and you don't get the feeling that they have a choice to be there or not be there. In the film, each human that is alive at the time of Complementation gets a choice to stay or to go back to reality. There is some question however as to whether or not Shinji gets to choose for the entire human race at the end of the movie. The only two people you see at the end are Shinji, and Asuka, so it is possible that he chose himself, and Asuka, kind of like an Adam and Eve situation, and they are the beginning of humankind again.

Further, the Newtype Filmbook description for the scene states (literally):

"Amidst the many words of congratulations, a faint smile starts at the corners ofShinji's mouth (and spreads across his face).

A happy face -- that is the figure of the Complemented Shinji. This conclusion is also one form, one possibility among many."

[F-ZeroOne]

That was actually the body of Lilith ...

Now mind you this is the "short" version of events

Apologies for the big edit to your text, I think you just burned out my cortex.

This is what gets me about Evangelion. I've seen the entire series, seen several key episodes more than once, seen the movie, twice, and still when I read things like this I feel that theres some party I wasn't invited to.

Could you please let me know - with full frame numbers, timing stops, and scene-by scene deconstructions - exactly where all this is explained in the series?!

( just kidding, honestly, but I think you can see what I'm driving at...! )

Edit: typos.

Edited September 30, 2003 by F-ZeroOne

[bigkid24]

Hmm...it's been a long time since I've seen the ending of the series and the movie but I used to think that the events that occured in the series were what Shinji was experiencing inside of Unit 01 while the movie was what a third party observer would see. I didn't really interpret them as two different endings.

[zeta]

I gotta idea!

Want to learn the secrets of the world? (WARNING THIS WILL EAT A WHOLE DAY OF YOUR LIFE!)

Simply buy the following animes:

Neon Genisis Evangelion

Serial Experiments Lain

And the following albums:

Dark Side of the Moon

The Wall (if you dont know who made those you have been frozen since the fifties)

Lou Reed - Berlin

Talking Heads - Fear Of Music

First listen to The Wall (A good starter)

Second Watch NGE (F**k your head up)

Third Caffiene and some food... (Keep living)

Fourth Berlin (Said to be the most depressing album ever)

Fifth Lain (F**k your head up a bit more)

Sixth Dark Side of the Moon (Brilliant album, will help your mind spin a bit more)

Seven Fear of Music (Not a brainf**k but good to come down off the marathon)

Keep a friend on hand to keep you from commiting suicide...

[Blaine23]

Zeta, what? No hallucinogens?

C'mon...

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

from what I remeber. At the end of the t.v seires, Shinji accepts instrumentation. Well in the movie he rejects it.  

hmm...interesting.

That last scene, where Ikari Shinji decides that he COULD be happy in a world in which he doesn't pilot EVA, and is congratulated by everyone always seemed to me to indicate that Shinji rejected the idea of giving up his identity.

First of all, the whole episode, and Shinji's realization seem to certainly point to this conclusion.

Secondly, the congratulations he recieves seems to indicate that his friends/family are proud and/or happy that Shinji managed to come to this (supposedly "correct") conclusion.

I'm interested to hear your interpretation.

That's the way I saw it as well, or this is the way I see it....

In the series, Shinji chose to stay with Complementation. The last two eps are basically about Shinji;s after death stream of consciousness. He is re-living or re-visiting his life, by himself, with memories of past friends popping in here and there. He is alone in a darkened room, kind of like the classic "On trial for your life" scenario. However, once his decision is made, he is all of the sudden not in the darkened room, but surrounded by all his friends, and he says "I understand!I can exist here!". This happens because he realizes that he has self worth as something OTHER than an Eva pilot, and that he is happy to co-exist with everyone else in Complementation. He is then congratulated for his decision, by friends living and dead, including his Father, who he has been trying to connect with all along.

However, the film ends differently. Shinji rejects Complementation and chooses the reality that is the pain of day to day existence. He realizes that he has self worth because of that existence, and basically comes to the realization that Life Sucks - Get a Phuckin Helmet. In short, he matures.

The big difference between the series, and the film is that in the Series, EVERYONE is in Complementation, and you don't get the feeling that they have a choice to be there or not be there. In the film, each human that is alive at the time of Complementation gets a choice to stay or to go back to reality. There is some question however as to whether or not Shinji gets to choose for the entire human race at the end of the movie. The only two people you see at the end are Shinji, and Asuka, so it is possible that he chose himself, and Asuka, kind of like an Adam and Eve situation, and they are the beginning of humankind again.

Further, the Newtype Filmbook description for the scene states (literally):

"Amidst the many words of congratulations, a faint smile starts at the corners ofShinji's mouth (and spreads across his face).

A happy face -- that is the figure of the Complemented Shinji. This conclusion is also one form, one possibility among many."

Pretty much the same conclusion I got, with a few differences.

[zeta]

Zeta, what? No hallucinogens?

C'mon...

I was gonna, but having never took them I dont think I would want to encourage people to do something to possible mess there brain up irepairably!

[Daishi3500]

correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't we all the 18th angel, just in itty bitty pieces. i guess i dosn't matter whether or not, its just cool to look at it that way.

[Daishi3500]

oh and tigerhappydumps is a mad indian

[Phyrox]

Well that certainly is a different interpretation of the series ending.

That is one of the things I like so much about EVA...that it is such a personal experience.

There are SO MANY things to draw on and form theories and conclusions that EVA is different to each fan.

With my friends we can argue for hours about Macross, Mospeada, etc...but when it comes to EVA, we just let each other be...way to much personal interpretation.

Which is a good thing. Entertainment that makes you think.

Oh, but dispite all the good evidence you provided, and the fact that it has apparently even been published...uh...

your wrong.

Edited October 1, 2003 by Phyrox

[Keith]

Again, you have to realize just how scaled down the TV series version was. Irregardless, in both versions Shinji accepts "Instrumentality/Complementation," it was never the process of joining into the single form existence to begin with, just the means by which people interact with each other (i.e. one being instrumental/complent to another).

The direct corrilation would be in the stage setting of the TV series, & the Lilith Egg of the movie. In both, Shinji decides that the community form existence where he can't be hurt isn't worth not being able to experience pleasure/companionship either. And as such, he chooses to return to the way things were. In the movie, the egg splits, and in the series, the stage shatters.

Besides which, if Shinji had chosen the single form existence in the TV series ending, then there wouldn't be anyone to congratulate him, as there would only be one liquid existence of nothingness. Again, watch both back to back.

[VFTF1]

Ok - time to flesh out my impressions of End of Evangelon. Only took me...what?...11 years to get on the band wagon? For those who care: I first watch the NGE series on youtube a couple months ago, and then EoE as well, but the small format does not allow for full exposure, so I managed to get around to getting myself a regular format high quality view of both. I have written about my impressions with NGE in the appropriate NGE thread, and here I will write my thoughts about EoE.

But first: Dear lord was it hard to find this thread! There seem to have been at least 5 or 6 EVA threads - my favorite being "End of Evangelon Quickie"...anyways - glad I found this thread...and here we go:

---

The Masturbation Scene:

Pure gold. My favorite scene in all of Neon Genesis Evangelon lore (that I have seen up to now). Better than Episode 20's sex "scene." Better because the latter was actually very poetic and beautiful and full of warmth and love (in spite of Misato's view low view of her affair with Kaji). Meanwhile - this masturbation scene was basically Shinji in a nutshell: a crazy boy? No - a normal boy in a crazy world.

Yep - normal. Because we have to take this scene in context. If there were no EVAs, if there was no NERV, no Human Instrumentality Project - in short if life looked like Shinji's imagination from episode 26 where he and the girls were just normal school children, then I highly doubt he would have masturbated on Asuka if she had been hospitalized.

Under the circumstances, however, what we have is a combination of a boy coming to grips with angst and the pain of growing up (when you become conscious of how much pain and evil exists in the world and are also - largely due to being a child - feeling powerless to do anything to stop it) with a situation in which the world is literaly coming to an end.

If Shinji has any morality in him; it is actually only as a result of his self-loathing. His self-loathing serves as a kind of limit on his otherwise raging passions: raging because he, like the other post-Second Impact children - never had an upbringing; never had a real family, never had people teach them how to live.

Well - actually - scratch that: Shinji has Misato. But she's no where to be found. He even has Asuka, but she's comatose for all intents and purposes. "Call me stupid like you always do!" sums up Shinji's existence: he began to feel safe in his little world in Misato's apartment, and now all of the signs of safety are crashing and only "reality" remains - and reality is imminent death - of everyone.

From a story point of view: there is no better way to summarize all of the above than in this masturbation scene.

So good job director/writer/whoever.

Moving on -

The death of Misato is very moving - because I just can't stand how much she also hates herself - why? She loves Kaji - it's not like she sleeps around with tons of other guys - she might be lonely and she might be a flirt - but she loved Kaji and was loved by him. Besides - her extrovertive flirtatiousness is largely the result of her experiencing the Second Impact. It's her way of shutting out the silence of being mute all those years.

And the way she convinces Shinji to pilot EVA- using womanly temptation - carressing him, kissing him, telling him they'd be together when he came back - treating him like a man and wanting him as a man - it's brilliant. It's effective, but I think deep down it's also somewhat true.

It's very touching that she dies thinking of Kaji.

Akagi Ritsuko:

A terrible character and a terrible death. If I were her mother, I'd also chose my lover over my daughter if my daughter put me in that situation. Ristusko had no reason to turn on Gendo except stupid jealousy. I'm probably wrong about this - but I never liked the character. She was always too much of a scientist and not enough of a woman for my taste.

I also find it symbolic that she drowns after floating in the water dead for a while. Those who know what the Akagi is understand the symbolism.

But in any event - I rather didn't like the way her character played out. In fact, she is the most underdeveloped of the main cast - and yet she gets such a dramatic exit - it's a bit senseless. I don't really understand why she did what she did.

Gendo:

Hm. Well - he loved Yui. That much was clear. But what I don't understand is why he pursued the EVA project in the first place? Was he a believer in the Human Instrumentality Project - and then only after Yui's death started to see it as a vehicle for being with her again?

Needless to say Gendo's problems are very much like those of Shinji.

General comments:

I prefer the TV ending. EoE is way to chronological for my taste - the whole thing seems a bit forced - kind of like the polar opposite of what the TV ending gave us.

The TV ending was chaotic, obviously created under durress - a mess of ideas thrown together and a lot of frustration - but also a large dose of freedom. It's as though precisely because they "didn't care" any more and had no money any more that they felt liberated to do whatever they thought - to be creative - to make the episodes themselves a kind of work in progress.

EoE has the opposite pressure hanging over it. It's almost as though there were no room for creativity in EoE - everything had to work like clockwork. First A happens, then B, then we need to show C, and then let's show D and E. And of course if we want to get to G, we have to show F first - and so on straight to Z.

In this sense it was very unlike NGE - it didn't have the spirit of NGE because part of what made NGE special was the extent to which it got progressively "worse" - the action scenes melted away, more static scenes appeared, scenes became more and more drawn out - "problems" became visible in the actual form of the material at the same time as the story took a turn towards a higher number of problems as well.

This all worked very well and was way more powerful than the beautiful orderly visual that EoE gives us.

And Rei...oh...what a terrible waste of a good character.

Rei supposedly heroically chooses to be herself and not a puppet of Gendo...great...

but...

She then goes on to become a puppet of Gainax.

From the moment she makes her choice, she looses any semblence of being an interesting character and transforms into the ultimate plot devise that moves the main story ark along.

It's almost as though she were choosing to be the puppet of all humanity - a vessel for human souls - rather than just for Gendo's aims - but still being a puppet.

This is sad.

Rei's fate is the sadest fate in the whole series.

Final thought:

Is Shinji gay? Why is he more at ease with his naked friend reaching out to him then naked Rei reaching out to him?

Then again - Shinji can't be gay given the beginning and middle of this movie - so I guess Shinji's sexuality is like the rest of him: a mess

Pete

[Keith]

Two quick notes, EoE was always the intended ending, and even the TV ending the same things happen, just way scaled back. And Gendo persued the Eva project because it was Yui's desire to do so.

[Gubaba]

...and even the TV ending the same things happen, just way scaled back.

I think that's still open to debate...my impression is that they're pretty much the same until the very end.

[Keith]

I think that's still open to debate...my impression is that they're pretty much the same until the very end.

TV Ending: Shinji rejects Instrumentality for all the reasons I mentioned in the previous topic, the stage set shatters appart, & everyone congratulates him.

Movie Ending: Shinji rejects Instrumentality, the egg that Lilith/Rei/God gathered everyone up into LCL inside splits open, everyone spills out into the ocean, Shinji reforms on shore with Asuka.

SAME ENDING!

[Morpheus]

TV Ending: Shinji rejects Instrumentality for all the reasons I mentioned in the previous topic, the stage set shatters appart, & everyone congratulates him.

Movie Ending: Shinji rejects Instrumentality, the egg that Lilith/Rei/God gathered everyone up into LCL inside splits open, everyone spills out into the ocean, Shinji reforms on shore with Asuka.

SAME ENDING!

I read somewhere that Asuka on the final (movie ending) is not the true Asuka, but a combination of Misato, Rei and Asuka.