Zentran vs Meltran

[hellohikaru]

Not sure whether this has been posted before.

Lets say both sides have equal amount of ships and mecha. No micronians involved.

I am not sure about the Meltran using Regults though but it can't be all Q-Rau based.

[Tekkaman Blade]

Obviously, the Meltran were better Power Armor pilots.

[myk]

Even in foreign entertainment men are made to be bumbling fools....

[Macross_Fanboy]

I'd say that neither side would win. Both have nearly unlimited resources. And the Zentran were made to be bumbling fools because of Millia, we all saw what she did to a couple of Zentran in DYRL?.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

I'd say the Meltradie would win.They have the Q-Rau, which look and seem to perform much better then anything the males have.

[Macross_Fanboy]

It'd be a stalemate, I mean they both had the same numbers, and the Zentran had a better range of mecha, but even with that it'd be a tie. If it was clear that the Meltrandi were superior to the males they would have won a long time ago, but they didn't. They've been fighting for hundreds of years and both were virtually defeated by the SDF-01 and the rude introduction of culture to both sides.

[Druna Skass]

I'd say total annihilation for both sides, forget all the power armors and what not, they'll blast each other with their Macross cannons.

[EXO]

I think that the Zentraedis' strength laid in their numbers. That's why the war has gone on for so long. If the Meltrans were to equal them, they would have wiped them out in no time, assuming that they wouldn't be dumbed down by over cloning...

[Zentrandude]

i have to agree with the others that it be either a stalemate or total annihilation, using Millia's skills as basis of the effectivness of that machine wouldnt be fair cuz not the others has her uber skills.

[hellohikaru]

Maybe Milia is just so good she can single handedly wipe out an entire fleet like Amuro Ray or Char Aznable.

But really how good are the rest of the Meltran ?

[Macross_Fanboy]

One man, or in this case, woman that is just a regular troop won't make a difference in a war that's been fought for hundreds of years. Everyone get that?

[Abombz!!]

Meltrans had the superior mechas, probably more aces, but lacked in numbers. Zentrans had worst mechas, better range of mechas, and outnumbered the Meltrans. I would say.... stale mate.

I was tempted to say better fortresses for the Zentrans, but we never get to see Lap-lamiz fortress do anything other then sit there and be destroyed.

[Macross_Fanboy]

Yeah. I'd like to have seen it actually kill something. As for the aces thing, perhaps since we only get to know of one ace and that ace is Millia, and there were 639 of her, I guess #639 was the ace of her earlier selves. Hey, do a Zentran's and Meltran's memories remain when they are grown again or are they just "blanks" with only one mission objective?

[Uxi]

Zentran. While the Meltran might seem to be more agile, I would imagine the average Zentran is stronger than the average Meltran. Assuming there were no additonal mecha on either side that we haven't seen animated... the greater mix of mecha would favor the Zentran and enable them to counteract the (apparently) highly better performance of the Q-rau over the Nos-Ger. Personally I'm not so convinced that's the case. (I can believe the Q-rau is superior, but not 3 or 4 x as good, though would buy that Milia the ace was that much greater than Joe Schmoe Zentran in a Nos-Ger).

Of course a fleet like Bodolzas with a mix of Zentran and Meltran would win over both, but thats not the topic we're discussing.

[Uxi]

Heh. I made no mention of (human) Men and Women. And anyone able to kill by squeezing with their "holy of holies" gets the trophy.

[EXO]

Meltrans had the superior mechas, probably more aces, but lacked in numbers. Zentrans had worst mechas, better range of mechas, and outnumbered the Meltrans. I would say.... stale mate.

That's exactly my point, but the original poster specifically said...

Lets say both sides have equal amount of ships and mecha.

Though Millia may be better than the avg. Meltran, it seemed that the Meltrans in general were able to hold up against the Zentrans with their limited numbers throughout their war.

If there was anything that said that both sides were equal in number during the beginning of the war, then it would be evident that the male side was winning this scenario.

[Macross_Fanboy]

Doesn't matter, Uxi, Zentran=Man, Meltran=Woman. They are technically humans after all, most of the differences in them would be in the ears, they're not exactly human-looking. And if you noticed in Macross Plus, I didn't look like Guld had any eyebrows. Or did any of the Zentran that boarded the SDF-01 in DYRL? during the armistice.

Edited September 26, 2003 by Macross_Fanboy

[Uxi]

Doesn't matter, Uxi, Zentran=Man, Meltran=Woman. They are technically humans after all, most of the differences in them would be in the ears, they're not exactly human-looking.

Sure it matters. Enculturation, while being a gigantic part, is still secondary to this matter. Besides, the strength thing was secondary to my main point on mecha diversity (and the corresponding ability to wage a combined-arms fight). But even without conceding strength, u still haven't tackled the death by squeezing issue.

[Zentrandude]

only prob is theres not enough data on how strong either side is. from the tv series and movie they only show like 1 fleet/divsion, things may be differnt in other fleets. zen maybe few but better while the meltran fighting them might have tons of units but lacking in expertise to defeat them. its been awhile since i seen the tv series but i think they only show Millia making kills and in the movie coarse she making kills but also another that gets shot down.

also the bad guys dont get focus on when they killing tons of nmes, look at M7 tons of vf-11s got blown up but never shown which one realy killed them.

there might be an ace zentran in a regult in another fleet but we never know.

[Dangard Ace]

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[Abombz!!]

Meltrans had the superior mechas, probably more aces, but lacked in numbers. Zentrans had worst mechas, better range of mechas, and outnumbered the Meltrans. I would say.... stale mate.

That's exactly my point, but the original poster specifically said...

Lets say both sides have equal amount of ships and mecha.

Though Millia may be better than the avg. Meltran, it seemed that the Meltrans in general were able to hold up against the Zentrans with their limited numbers throughout their war.

If there was anything that said that both sides were equal in number during the beginning of the war, then it would be evident that the male side was winning this scenario.

I think it was more then just mechs and aces. I think as far as technology goes... the Meltrans had an edge. Just look at DYRL.... how did Millias squadron sneaked up to Britais ship? Its a command ship, isn't it? Shouldn't it have all sorts of neat little gimmicks?

But even then... not matter how technologically advanced you are.... you can't win a war of 1 vs 1000. Thats why the Meltrans seemed to be waging a war of hit & run.

[Agent ONE]

Well in the DYRL timeline/universe* the Zjentohlauedy and the Meltohlauedy had been fighting for 10,000 or so years so I would say iw would be an eternal draw.

* The term, "the DYRL timeline/universe" refers to the fact that when in 1984 when DYRL was made, DYRL was a retelling of Space War I. Therefore it has its own timeline and universe.

Yes, I know later (10 years our time 1984-1994) the content of DYRL was added into Macross 7 through the means of calling it a "fictional movie within the Macross universe."

[Zentrandude]

how did Millias squadron sneaked up to Britais ship? Its a command ship, isn't it? Shouldn't it have all sorts of neat little gimmicks?

i can proly say. the sensor crew was too busy trying to sneak a peak at the little ppl . or just all the ships have bad sensors like how those 3 micronized zentran escape macross in a regult without being shotdown.

[Drad]

I agree with the eternal draw statement. If both sides are still fighting after 10,000 years.. there's not going to be a victor.

[Abombz!!]

Thats funny though. Say.... the Zentrans have the best defense and the Meltrans have the best offense, wouldn't the best sword shatter the best shield while shattering itself? There shouldn't be a stalemate in this case.

Unless neither one is master of its own best perks.

[Drad]

I figure that if neither side has figured out a way to win decisively, after all those years of fighting.. it's just not gonna happen. They're both immensely powerful armies.

Just not powerful enough to put each other down for good.

[EXO]

I agree with everyone... but to reiterate a point (and I don't know where to look for this info, so If you can point it out to me I would greatly appreciate it...)

that if both sides started with the same amount of people/ships then it would seem that the Meltrans were losing very slowly. Maybe if they never ran in to humans, then the Zentrans would have won in another... say... 20,000 years... it's a long time but so is 10,000 years.

[Abombz!!]

I agree with everyone... but to reiterate a point (and I don't know where to look for this info, so If you can point it out to me I would greatly appreciate it...)

that if both sides started with the same amount of people/ships then it would seem that the Meltrans were losing very slowly. Maybe if they never ran in to humans, then the Zentrans would have won in another... say... 20,000 years... it's a long time but so is 10,000 years.

There you go! The problem here is that the Zentradi met the humans. You should only think about it with humans in the equation. There are far too many unknown that would interfear with calculating who would have the clear victory.

And besides... while we know that Bodolza was only 1 of many fortresses.... how do we know Lap-lamiz was not one of a kind? If the Zentran outnumber the Meltrans, then its very much possible that Lap-Lamiz was the only Meltran fortress.

There are far too many unknown to decide who wins.

[EXO]

as with any war...

[JsARCLIGHT]

Some things to note in this matchup should be the following: Most advantages in combat come from opportunity, terrain and skill. Someone on the high ground with good cover and small numbers can easily beat superior numbers attacking. Both sides have their strong points and weak points, the issue is does the other side recognise those and exploit them. Military facts time! There are really only three types of encounters in combat: the ambush, the "meeting engagement" and the seige. An ambush occurs when one side or the other deliberately plans an encounter and either lays in wait for an unsuspecting enemy or they manuver and attack and unsuspecting enemy. We can assume for fairness this matchup cannot be an ambush engagement (something the Meltrandi seem to excell at). The seige is a tactic in which one side deliberately attacks the other within his line of sight or makes no effort to hide his approach and inevitable engagement. In modern combat this sort of engagement most of the time favors the defenders as they have ample warning to prepare and brace for the attack, making the assault all the harder on the attacker (this type of fighting seems to favor the Zentradi). Lastly is the "meeting engagement" where two manuvering forces randomly encounter one another in the field. Neither one expects the other and they just sort of "run into" each other and a fight breaks out. This is the most random and dangerous of encounters as both sides are at a disadvantage. In this type of encounter things like individial skill and courage, the terrain and the environment can make the biggest difference. Assuming this match-up will be a "meeting engagement" between like numbers of Zentradi and Meltrandi is on even terrain with a neutral start... I'd have to say it is a toss up. Either side could win, either side could loose or they could kill each other dead. The pure randomness of combat is not something that can be metered based on certain factors.

Seeing as the Zentradi and Meltrandi are clones however you can potentially eliminate the "ace" gene from them and have an equal number of equally skilled troops square off against each other. In a world of pure science and math those two forces could (and most likely would) fight each other to a stalemate every time barring any unusual actions by either side. Seems to me that is what has been happening in the world of DYRL for the last couple thousand years.

But always remember that in any randomly generated encounter there is always a chance that any of the three different endgames will play out in any possible combination of numbers.

[vanpang]

Hi guys,

Just putting out a point, I finish watching Macross 7 OVA episode 1 "Fleet of the Strongest Women", the advance fleet of Macross 7 was literally wiped out by the Q-raus of the Meltrans and there was not a single casualty on the meltran !!!(not that I noticed anyway). Based on that episode, I would think the meltrans have higher chance of defeating anyone (including humans) if they have the numbers and more ranged weapons and if they can get over Basara's music

[Macross_Fanboy]

Strong defense...and strong offense...brings back memories of the previous Super Bowl. The Buccaneers had a strong defensive line up while the Raiders had a stong offense...but the Buccaneers won! So I think that one side was strong offensively while the other side was strong defensively wouldn't really mean anything, Abombz. It's all about the Zentran meeting humans and being surprised to see the men intermingling with the women. But that was limited to one ship and to Bodolza. I liked how Bodolza dies, Minmay extends her hand and Hikaru comes into view and blows him away. B)

[hellohikaru]

Hi guys,

Just putting out a point, I finish watching Macross 7 OVA episode 1 "Fleet of the Strongest Women", the advance fleet of Macross 7 was literally wiped out by the Q-raus of the Meltrans and there was not a single casualty on the meltran !!!(not that I noticed anyway). Based on that episode, I would think the meltrans have higher chance of defeating anyone (including humans) if they have the numbers and more ranged weapons and if they can get over Basara's music

That particular episode didn't make sense....why would the UN Spacy wanna destroy the Zentraedi when they are trying introduce culture to them ?

Anyway the Meltran taking no losses is no possible. Sometimes not everything is shown. And this makes them sound so super. What about the Zentraedi in the UN Spacy ? I suppose even Millia wouldn't have been able to anything about the uber fleet of Chloe(spl?) had she lauched.

[Uxi]

That particular episode didn't make sense....why would the UN Spacy wanna destroy the Zentraedi when they are trying introduce culture to them ?

They specifically mentioned that in the episode, though the reasons require speculation. Exedore said it would be difficult without Minmei. Recordings wouldn't be enough, apparently. Based on Milia's surprise and Max's resignation [on a side note, Max sure takes bad orders well - both the attack Varauta mission "abandoned fleet" business AND the order to destroy the Meltraedi], it wasn't a usual order. But then Chlore's fleet was unusually large, however, and that might have in the UN Spacy's reasoning.

Going with that, could it be that such a large fleet would be beyond their ability to defend themselves while attempting to "persuade" them? Or another thought is that with such a large fleet out there, it was better to have it one piece than to fragment (some persuaded, others not) and rampage wherever they went, attacking colonies and other New Macross fleets, etc. Then there's the fact that the Meltran were unpredictible in their response to the singing (they go into provocative intimidation and outright attack when Mylene tried by herself, but then are completely the opposite with Basara. Minmei for example seems to be in the middle or slightly towards the Basara end of that spectrum). Possibly due to the power level of "anima spiritia" in the respective singers? Or maybe Meltran react differently than the primary Zentran of Bodolzas fleet and the UN Spacy have seen it before.

What's interesting to me is that noone on Macross 7 seemed to think they COULDNT destroy Chlore's huge Meltran fleet, which should be some indiciation of the relative strength of the Meltran, no?