EXO Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I have to say that aside form the argument, it would be truly interesting what these scans say... Thanks Lonewolf and JsArclight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent ONE Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 All this great material Lone Wolf is providing I'm having professionally translated on my own coin. As soon as I get the copies and get them to the translators the sooner I'll get them back. I'll post the translations for all the pertinant materials here in this thread. But even if you do that, does it really tell us anything? That stuff was printed in 1992! No matter what that says, it can't possibly be an accurate reflection of what DYRL was first intended to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JsARCLIGHT Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I agree with you John, I just think that at this point in the game it would benefit everyone who likes Macross to have a nice readable legit translation of all these apparently "untranslated" and hard to find materials so they can have "the whole story" and form their own opinions. Based on everything I have seen so far the story seems to be that no one really knew what to think about DYRL up until Macross Plus came out which caused the whole issue to be addressed by the creators. At that point a decision was made to enact the "alternate timeline" idea which then became the "movie within a movie" explaination. You never know, perhaps there is something in these liner notes that might shed some more light on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewilen Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 It might be helpful to have someone who knows Japanese read through the parts of Perfect Memory which seem to show the original story outlines and how they were revised during production. There may also be some good stuff in The Gold Book (haven't even seen a copy in person, myself). But to actually translate all that in print would be a major undertaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewilen Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Director's Suggestion... why do I feel "get a life" is somewhere in there... hehe... Yes, it seems a lot of creators care a lot less about continuity than the obsessed fans. Whether or not you like Tolkien, you have to give him credit--he was as much a fan of his world as he was the creator, and he was very much a continuity freak/perfectionist. I recommend his short story "Leaf by Niggle" (found in the collection Tree and Leaf) which is partly self-deprecating allegory, partly a tale of despair over the impossible task of building a coherent and complete "sub-reality". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 -Fact: No one here has "any" statement, past or present, that DYRL was ever intended to fully stand alone from the continuity. -Fact: we have current support that comfirms it is intended to be included into the continuity as a movie within the series. -Fact: Flash Back 2012 (created in '87) shows us an event (the Megaroad-01 launch) that reflects DYRL being part of the TV continuity. -Fact: The "Perfect Edition" of DYRL released in '92 supports this even further. Now I'm not even going to get into how Plus & 7 drive the point home even harder by their overt inclusion of DYRL & the TV series side by side, these are again the things which are easily available for all to see. I could also go into how the structure of the movie is designed so that it can't really fully stand on its own, and requires pre-existing series knowledge of events before & after those depicted to get a good grounding for what's going on. Instead I'll just say this. Trasnlate the scan's above, trasnlate the movie trailers, and whatever other material may be available. What you won't find is any proof supporting either side. What this amounts to is how much do you trust Kawarmori & Nue. I fully support their stance on this issue, and they've never done anything to make anyone believe that DYRL was intended to be anything but a movie within the continuity. This is where I stand, and what a firm ground it is. You can accuse me of not supplying proof all you like, but when all is said an done, what stronger proof do you need than an official stance by the staff which created it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uxi Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 (edited) It's a logical fallacy to prove a negative IIRC. IOW the lack of evidence is not evidence itself for any argument. Either way. Is there any doubt that the current timeline didnt kick out an older one? I seem to remember Big West definately heading a different direction while Studio Nue wasn't in the picture, as posted on these very forums (well the old ones... who was it... Edo?)? Edited September 30, 2003 by Uxi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLoneWolf Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 (edited) Back, here's part 3 of the linear notes. Edit: oops And finally, part 4. If anyone else wants to try translating and needs a clearer image, PM me and I'll send you the uncompressed .tif files. Edited September 30, 2003 by TheLoneWolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsu legato Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 -Fact: No one here has "any" statement, past or present, that DYRL was ever intended to fully stand alone from the continuity. Uxi's right. You can't "prove" a negative. The fact is that, circa 1984 there was no statements one way or the other in regard to DYRL's placement in the continuity. -Fact: we have current support that comfirms it is intended to be included into the continuity as a movie within the series. One more time for the cheap seats: Show us something from 1984. -Fact: Flash Back 2012 (created in '87) shows us an event (the Megaroad-01 launch) that reflects DYRL being part of the TV continuity. And just what does the Megaroad prove? How does this place DYRL as an in-continuity movie? -Fact: The "Perfect Edition" of DYRL released in '92 supports this even further. Supports this....how? If you want anybody to take your arguments seriously, you're going to have to come up with something more substantial than this. Now I'm not even going to get into how Plus & 7 drive the point home even harder by their overt inclusion of DYRL & the TV series side by side, How many times do we have to say this? We're not interested in any retcons from Plus or 7. The fact is that you can't come up with anything from '84. I could also go into how the structure of the movie is designed so that it can't really fully stand on its own, and requires pre-existing series knowledge of events before & after those depicted to get a good grounding for what's going on. Again, this doesn't prove anything. Lots of films rely on pre-existing knowledge of their TV counterparts. Furthermore, this reliance on familiarity with the TV show does not automatically mean that DYRL must therefore be a movie. I fully support their stance on this issue, and they've never done anything to make anyone believe that DYRL was intended to be anything but a movie within the continuity. This is where I stand, and what a firm ground it is. Sure...but find us an example of their "stance" that predates Plus or 7. Show us anything from '84 that indicates that DYRL was anything less than an alternate version of their story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsu legato Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Oh, and thanks again for the scans, TheLoneWolf. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jemstone Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Heheh. This therad is funny. Rand, how do you manage to get yourself in these situations by asking such simple questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Togo Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Some way, some how, it all comes back to gay whales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewilen Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Another place to look for facts (and likely a very good place) would be the Flash Back 2012 Art Book...but I don't have it...anyone? Although it may not be conclusive, it would also be nice to know whether, according to the official timeline, the carriers were replaced with ARMD's on the SDF-1's arms during the 2012 refit, or some other time. This may be common knowledge, although I don't see it in the Compendium. SDF-1 does appear in its updated form in Macross Plus, doesn't it? (I haven't seen all of M+ yet--will fix that soon.) And it would be nice to know when Kawamori et. al. officially decided to reconcile the DYRL and SDF: Macross appearance of the ship in this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLoneWolf Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Another place to look for facts (and likely a very good place) would be the Flash Back 2012 Art Book...but I don't have it...anyone?Although it may not be conclusive, it would also be nice to know whether, according to the official timeline, the carriers were replaced with ARMD's on the SDF-1's arms during the 2012 refit, or some other time. This may be common knowledge, although I don't see it in the Compendium. SDF-1 does appear in its updated form in Macross Plus, doesn't it? (I haven't seen all of M+ yet--will fix that soon.) And it would be nice to know when Kawamori et. al. officially decided to reconcile the DYRL and SDF: Macross appearance of the ship in this way. Actually, I've got a copy of that book. I'll peruse through it later for any sort of timeline or explanation and post it here. I'll also skim the Gold Book and Perfect Memory sometime. ewilen, I must commend you on those excellent post. Keep it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundown Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 -Fact: No one here has "any" statement, past or present, that DYRL was ever intended to fully stand alone from the continuity. True. Just as no one has any *statement* that predates 1994, with the release of Macross +, that suggests DYRL was a movie within a movie *in its inception*. -Fact: we have current support that comfirms it is intended to be included into the continuity as a movie within the series. Yes. *Now*. The earliest support being in 1994 from Kawamori and crew's own mouth. -Fact: Flash Back 2012 (created in '87) shows us an event (the Megaroad-01 launch) that reflects DYRL being part of the TV continuity. Footage in Flash Back 2012, showing both SDF and DYRL elements... and its real meaning... is up for *interpretation*. Your interpretation of the two is that DYRL fits in the continuity (and thus *must* have been considered a movie even at that time). Others interpret the mixture of footage being simply for dramatic effect and to show how the design has changed... without actually saying anything about how the old design fits within the fiction itself. But, no mention of the "fiction within a fiction" was explicitly stated until 10 years after DYRL, when Kawamori had to sort out the continuity messes that rose with Mac+/Mac7. Interpretation does not "fact" make. 2012 does not definitively *prove* that DYRL was always intended to be a movie within a movie in its inception. Watching it will only give one certain impressions based on how *he* interprets it. Neither interpretation can be thrown around as "fact" without something more substantial. It is convincing only to you, because you're predisposed to the notion that Kawamori had a master plan even back then. But interpretations that one finds absolutely convincing, only on the basis of one's own biases and predispositions... don't make good "facts". It is merely semi-supportive circumstantial evidence that could be argued either way. It isn't convincing or damning evidence to those who are slightly more cynical of the matter. -Fact: The "Perfect Edition" of DYRL released in '92 supports this even further. Not sure how they do exactly, other than packaging both DYRL and 2012 together as a bonus for the fans, and ending the story in a neat way. Yes, it can be interpreted that 2012 is sort of a shot of the "real world" of Macross at the time, sort of waking up from the fantasy of DYRL. But it sure doesn't view that way to any, except by fans who try to retcon their way out of the inconsistencies. Again, it's still only one interpretation. For that interpretation to have weight, one must prove that 2012 itself, made 5 years prior to '92, was really intended to show that DYRL was part of the continuity as a work of fiction. There isn't enough explicit "evidence" in 2012 to settle the matter, period. And it only works by fanboy effort to retcon the whole situation. Just because a fan can interpret these disjoint pieces in a way that flows, doesn't mean that the creator had the exact same interpretation in mind in its inception. If he did, then it begs the question of why the creator left so much room for confusion. Either: 1. Most Macross fans are idiots in not picking up these subtle but o-so-clear indications in 2012... except for a certain few enlightened individuals who seem to have picked up these vague "clues"... which *still* don't convince those to whom they're pointed out to. 2. Kawamori failed as a creator to make this relatively important aspect of DYRL clear to his audience, allowing them to be confused for nearly a decade before explaining it patiently in plain words to them... 3. Kawamori didn't explicitly intend DYRL to be a fiction within a fiction in its inception. It was just a retcon job, and he didn't care about continuity all that much. (He's said so himself in regards to Macross 0). Now I'm not even going to get into how Plus & 7 drive the point home even harder by their overt inclusion of DYRL & the TV series side by side, these are again the things which are easily available for all to see. No one disputes that the *current* official and accepted explaination of DYRL is that given in Mac 7 (retcon). But Mac 7 does nothing to "prove" that DYRL was a movie within a movie in its *inception* 10 years prior. Thus it bears no weight on the issue. I could also go into how the structure of the movie is designed so that it can't really fully stand on its own, and requires pre-existing series knowledge of events before & after those depicted to get a good grounding for what's going on. DYRL does require SDF viewing to make sense. DYRL however does nothing to explain why it *doesn't* make sense in terms of continuity. It's been said by Kawamori way back that DYRL was just another telling of the story, as real as SDF is. And it's really just eyecandy and a treat for Macross fans. No mention of a movie within a movie. It caused confusion without explaining anything... because it was meant to be treated as just another piece of entertainment. Not to be placed under the scruitiny of continuity. Instead I'll just say this. Trasnlate the scan's above, trasnlate the movie trailers, and whatever other material may be available. What you won't find is any proof supporting either side. What this amounts to is how much do you trust Kawarmori & Nue. I fully support their stance on this issue, and they've never done anything to make anyone believe that DYRL was intended to be anything but a movie within the continuity. This is where I stand, and what a firm ground it is. "Trust" is not fact. Fact simply is Kawamori and company never brought up the movie within the movie aspect until 10 years later. The rest is largely interpretation of existing material *in hindsight*, armed *with the retcon explaination*. This is not a good way to go about deducing a creator's intent. It is only convincing to the fan with something at stake and something to prove. You can accuse me of not supplying proof all you like, but when all is said an done, what stronger proof do you need than an official stance by the staff which created it? The official stance came in 1994. It is the official and accept explaination now. In the 10 years between DYRL's creation, and 1994, there has been *no* mention of a movie within the continuity. Period. Even when Kawamori was given opportunity to explain the continuity descrepancies. He simply stated that both tellings were "real". A stance that came in 1994 does not give proof that this was the intended stance 10 years prior to when it was issued. Fact remains that those 10 years provided Kawamori plenty of time to both make things clear to fans (which he didn't) and to come up with some retcon explaination after the fact (which he did, eventually)... He didn't feel the need to, despite the confusion that resulted... until he simply had to-- with Mac+/Mac7 on the horizon. The last argument is equivalent to arguing that George Lucas always intended Stormtroopers in Star Wars to be clones, because he hints them being such in AOTC, made 20 years later. Any official "canon" explaination saying Stormtroopers are clones *now* does not make clear that such was always the intent from the beginning. Regardless of whether we "trust" Kawamori or Lucas, the argument is really one and the same. And neither show that much of a rabid concern for continuity, period. The plain fact is... neither Kawamori nor Lucas cares about continuity and consistency within their created words as you do. -Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsu legato Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Sundown!! You are my new hero! B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Sundown!! You are my new hero! B) AMEN!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jemstone Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Sundown!! You are my new hero! B) I was thinkign the same. Only Sundown forgot to add a "Bomba!" at the end of his post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLoneWolf Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Hear hear! Sundown for mod! Good stuff, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 (edited) The plain fact is... neither Kawamori nor Lucas cares about continuity and consistency within their created words as you do.-Al If that were true, we'd still be having to deal with Macross II, as well as the many inbetween 87-94 period PC Engine & assorted games. Kawamori has stuck pretty tightly with continuity, and unlike Lucas, has made succeful efforts to flesh it out greatly. As for the other issues addressed, it still boils down to the fact that it's not necessary for there to have been anything "spelled out" to anyone pre-94. In the end, Nue states it's a movie within the continuity, has never stated anything otherwise, and affirms that stance to this day. And given that they do so, there's no reason for anyone to believe otherwise. The fact that FB 2012 only stands to support their placement of DYRL within the continuity as a movie just makes it all the better. Kawamori is nowhere even remotely as lax with Macross as Lucas is with SW. All it boils down to is that some choose to dislike its placement there. And to those people, all that can be said is "tough." BOMBA! Edited October 1, 2003 by Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent ONE Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 [old brit] Good show man!.. Jolly good show! [/old brit] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent ONE Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 The plain fact is... neither Kawamori nor Lucas cares about continuity and consistency within their created words as you do.-Al If that were true, we'd still be having to deal with Macross II, as well as the many inbetween 87-94 period PC Engine & assorted games. Kawamori has stuck pretty tightly with continuity, and unlike Lucas, has made succeful efforts to flesh it out greatly. As for the other issues addressed, it still boils down to the fact that it's not necessary for there to have been anything "spelled out" to anyone pre-94. In the end, Nue states it's a movie within the continuity, has never stated anything otherwise, and affirms that stance to this day. And given that they do so, there's no reason for anyone to believe otherwise. The fact that FB 2012 only stands to support their placement of DYRL within the continuity as a movie just makes it all the better. All it boils down to is that some choose to dislike its placement there. And to those people, all that can be said is "tough." BOMBA! Wow Keith, That is a whole-lot-a-nuthin. You keep saying "94'" but that isn't relevant to the discussion. Your arguments are ungrounded and you try say something is something just because they didn't say it was anything else before. Nobody didn't say that the Basara character isn't modeled after Boy George, so that make it fact that he is? You have been beaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uxi Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Ok the Clone comment is just ridiculous. Star Wars has SOME issues (mostly retcons ala Greedo shooting first) but the Clones aren't one of them. Stormtroopers were always vague and there was some official material (77-80'ish) that outright mentioned it. But even the EU isn't bad with "real events." Characterization has a nasty change with different author et all, but I'm willing to debate (Im PM or in the "Other" Forum since it's not on topic here) any major continuity issues u might have. Funny how the retcons are the worst of continuity. Be it Macross or Star Wars. B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 The plain fact is... neither Kawamori nor Lucas cares about continuity and consistency within their created words as you do.-Al If that were true, we'd still be having to deal with Macross II, as well as the many inbetween 87-94 period PC Engine & assorted games. Kawamori has stuck pretty tightly with continuity, and unlike Lucas, has made succeful efforts to flesh it out greatly. As for the other issues addressed, it still boils down to the fact that it's not necessary for there to have been anything "spelled out" to anyone pre-94. In the end, Nue states it's a movie within the continuity, has never stated anything otherwise, and affirms that stance to this day. And given that they do so, there's no reason for anyone to believe otherwise. The fact that FB 2012 only stands to support their placement of DYRL within the continuity as a movie just makes it all the better. All it boils down to is that some choose to dislike its placement there. And to those people, all that can be said is "tough." BOMBA! Wow Keith, That is a whole-lot-a-nuthin. You keep saying "94'" but that isn't relevant to the discussion. Your arguments are ungrounded and you try say something is something just because they didn't say it was anything else before. Nobody didn't say that the Basara character isn't modeled after Boy George, so that make it fact that he is? You have been beaten. Difference being, DYRL being included in the TV continuity is based in fact, your random gibberish however isn't. And again, the fact that Nue says it's a movie within the continuty is all the evidence necessary to support that it always has been. The counter argument si entirely based on the stance that "I don't like this idea, I'm going to dissagree with it." Now that's a "whole lot of nuthin'" Besides which, everyone know's Basara is based off a cross between John Lennon & Jimi Hendrix. I don't mind debate, but come on, if you're going to try to egg me on, at least be a bit more creative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsu legato Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Ok the Clone comment is just ridiculous. Star Wars has SOME issues (mostly retcons ala Greedo shooting first) but the Clones aren't one of them. Stormtroopers were always vague and there was some official material (77-80'ish) that outright mentioned it. Yes, yes to Uxi you listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phyrox Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 "Difference being, DYRL being included in the TV continuity is based in fact, your random gibberish however isn't. And again, the fact that Nue says it's a movie within the continuty is all the evidence necessary to support that it always has been. " Are you serious here? Have you no incredulity at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abombz!! Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 This is the dumbest argument I have seen in my entire life. This even beats the whole translation debacle that went on the debate thread a few months ago. <_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent ONE Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 This is the dumbest argument I have seen in my entire life. This even beats the whole translation debacle that went on the debate thread a few months ago. It is a great argument, just one dumb participant who is arguing with, well.. Everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abombz!! Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 This is the dumbest argument I have seen in my entire life. This even beats the whole translation debacle that went on the debate thread a few months ago. It is a great argument, just one dumb participant who is arguing with, well.. Everyone. I'm only saying its dumb because..... both sides have been repeating themselves for the past 2 pages or so. One side asks for proof while the other dodges the request. <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JsARCLIGHT Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 The counter argument si entirely based on the stance that "I don't like this idea, I'm going to dissagree with it." Now that's a "whole lot of nuthin'" I have no issue accepting that the current Macross story arc has absorbed DYRL into itself as a movie within a movie after 1994 when they had to piece together their future sequels. You accuse us of claiming our stance because we don't like the "idea"... you are guilty of the same thing yourself. You are fighting tooth and nail against just the thought that DYRL was ever just a simple big screen adaptation of a popular TV show and that it was never originally intended to be part of any "timeline" or "continuity". It seems that the mere thought that Studio Nue and Kawamori made something that did not fit into "the box" and then changed things at a later date so it would is just unthinkable to you. People do it all the time. Why can't we all just accept these things and agree that both sides can have it their way? For the last time, we are not debating the current status of the Macross canon timeline, we are pointing out that before 1994 DYRL was not thought of as a movie within the timeline. I agree that DYRL has become a movie within the timeline but it was definately not that from the beginning. While at the same time other people can believe that DYRL is a movie in the timeline to help give the newer macross properties more "legitamacy" and to help the fans who are so confused by why some things are one way in one show and another in another. BTW for those who are interested the translations of the five pieces of material submitted by Lone Wolf are under way and should be ready next week some time. I am thinking of doing some photoshop work to the translations to make "english versions" of the posted scans... unless people think that would just be unneccessary then I'll just post the raw translations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXO Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 This is the dumbest argument I have seen in my entire life. This even beats the whole translation debacle that went on the debate thread a few months ago. Well, HE started it... No I didn't did too did not did too did not uh huh uh uh uh huh uh uh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JsARCLIGHT Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 I'm only saying its dumb because..... both sides have been repeating themselves for the past 2 pages or so. One side asks for proof while the other dodges the request. Abombz: I, EXO, ewilen and Lone Wolf have been trying to get some proof and translations together... it's just taking some time. Thanks to all who have posted proof in this thread, it has been a great help to show people what has been said "in the record" on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abombz!! Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 I'm only saying its dumb because..... both sides have been repeating themselves for the past 2 pages or so. One side asks for proof while the other dodges the request. Abombz: I, EXO, ewilen and Lone Wolf have been trying to get some proof and translations together... it's just taking some time. Thanks to all who have posted proof in this thread, it has been a great help to show people what has been said "in the record" on this issue. I know... and I appreciate the effort. At least someone here is trying hard to prove something. But one cannot deny that before thelonewolf supplied the material, this was one heck of a pissing contest. <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JsARCLIGHT Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 But one cannot deny that before thelonewolf supplied the material, this was one heck of a pissing contest. That's because we were depending on a beligerent opposition to provide the elements, which they made very clear they could not be bothered to do. It took some time before we could find a member who had the materials mentioned in the thread and it will take a bit more time to get them professionally translated and posted. I figure if no other positive comes out of this thread we will at least have nice, clean and readable pro translations of the FB 2012 liner notes and the DYRL perfect edition liner notes available free for everyone to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXO Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 The translation thing is pretty cool and I'm looking forward to it. I just realized early on that one person who chooses his pride over common sense is not worth the time. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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