Roy's Death

[hellohikaru]

He died differently in the tv compared with the DYRL one. Maybe DYRL wanted to make him look more "heroic" but why did he had to bleed to death ?

[Hikuro]

It's sort of an easy YET difficult question to answer. See in the past, Roy knew once he joined the military he was pretty much going to be there for life, and never had full cofidence that he would make it through each battle alive, much like his tragic wingmen.

He's also told Hikaru, "You know, I think my plane is gonna live longer than me." and he was basically right. Roy was sort of looking for a death, but he was ready to accept his fate the moment it came....it's just sorta hard to explain.

[Gyges]

I think they had him die that way in SDF: Macross so as to allow him to die with Claudia, making it more touching and tragic. After all, one of the primary things that they gutted in DYRL was the relationships.

[Anubis]

It's hard to say for sure why or wether it was necessary, maybe to give Hikaru the lead for the remainder of the show, maybe only way to get him out of Roy's shadow. Maybe to insert some drama. Suits his character though that he forced himself to live until he could at least see Claudia for another moment.

Edited September 22, 2003 by Anubis

[JsARCLIGHT]

Roy's death in the show is a classic (now stereotypical) storytelling device in which the young man is thrust into the father's leadership role by his death. It's all very oedipal, but in the end it serves it's purpose... which in this case is to move Hikaru into a position of real importance and responsability.

As for how Roy dies, at least he died in a dignified way in both renditions...

[Agent ONE]

I actually prefered his death in DYRL because, he wasn't beaten... he died protecting Hikaru. To me that made more sense than just getting skewered when he was outnumbered. It seemed slightly out of character.

[Nightbat]

Was he beaten in SDF-tv?

or did he hold the defense and returned after the threat disappeared

he severely got his butt kicked in DYRL

[Ryougabot]

I agree with JsARCLIGHT. The death was necessary. When I firs read the Robotech books (my first exposure). I was conflicted whether it was Roy’s or Hikaru’s story. Hikaru could never be the main character as long as Roy was around. Roy had to be removed from the picture and what better way to do that than by tragedy, it forced Hikaru to grow up and be a main character. I do believe the situation in DYRL was better, but they were both good.

[Druna Skass]

I would have preffered him to go out (if they just had to kill him off) like Commander Kinryu did in Macross 7, taking a battleship with him.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I would have preffered him to go out (if they just had to kill him off) like Commander Kinryu did in Macross 7, taking a battleship with him.

But you have to remember that Commander Kinryu was not a main teir motivating character in Macross 7, he was just another one of the many background characters who had little effect on the plot or main characters. His glamorized death in Macross 7 was another famous storytelling crutch: the martyr. A character that no one really notices or cares about who rises up and does something increadible at the cost of his own life, leaving the survivng characters saying "such a man, we hardly knew ye". Roy Focker on the other hand was Hikaru's "father figure", the big brother and sempai who had a major influence on his life. Roy had to die in a way that a father would: defending the family. In both TV and DYRL Roy dies in defense of those he cares about, not offense. He dies trying to save Hikaru from Kamujin in DYRL and he dies flying a defense mission in the TV show. Roy, albeit he was a drunkard and a womanzier, dies being the protective father or "sempai".

How is this for further oedipal things: Roy was sort of Hikaru's immediate father figure of which he looked up to and sought approval from... and Misa, being the flight controller was in a sense his mother figure, watching over him and scolding him when he was not living up to his potential. So in a sense Hikaru's father dies and he ends up with mother.

[KingNor]

His death was a way to show the pointlesness of war, wich was one of the major themes of the show.

Another theme oddly enough was that wars are worth fighting if its for something you belive in.

i think killing off one of the most popular characters in a almost trivial way is a very brave thing for a tv show to do. i think had all the main characters either lived, or only died in super heroic ways, the show would have felt less tragic, and the characters loss less real.

[Druna Skass]

But you have to remember that Commander Kinryu was not a main teir motivating character in Macross 7...

Well my point was to have a major character go out in a major way.

I always thought Misa was more like the "big sister who has to be mom" since I really can't think of a sitiation where Misa put her life on the line to protect Hikaru, you don't really see a motherly protectiveness with her...

Edited September 22, 2003 by Druna Skass

[VF-18S Hornet]

In the T.V. series he get shot up and wounded in the end. You think mabye once he landed he would go to the hospital and seek medical treatment immediately. No He chose to see Claudia one last time before he bled to death. He had opportunity and there was the flight deck crew that found that he was bleeding after he left the cockpit of his Valk, there would have been a comotion in trying to locate him and get medical attention.

In DYRL he didn't have that luxury when he got pinned in the cockpit of his Valk after Kamujin slams his fist into the heatshield, so what could he but to protect Hikaru and misa one last time by shooting the big guy in the back and dying a hero's death in firey explosion.

Edited September 22, 2003 by VF-18S Hornet

[JsARCLIGHT]

I always thought Misa was more like the "big sister who has to be mom" since I really can't think of a sitiation where Misa put her life on the line to protect Hikaru, you don't really see a motherly protectiveness with her...

Well she did pull him out of that pool of water in Britai's ship, saving him from drowning... she always seems to specifically talk only to him in danger situations trying to warn him like in the epsode when the barrier goes kablooey... she did do all his housework and laundry at home... she seems to have a very maternal, almost suffocating relationship with him later in the series which prompts him to break away from her and see Minmay... Misa has always been the motherly, quiet and "dependable" woman in Hikaru's life whereas Minmay has always appeared to be the glamourous, rebellious and "needy" one.

[Uxi]

Yup. He had to die in the name of character development (for Hikaru).

[Batou]

How is this for further oedipal things: Roy was sort of Hikaru's immediate father figure of which he looked up to and sought approval from... and Misa, being the flight controller was in a sense his mother figure, watching over him and scolding him when he was not living up to his potential. So in a sense Hikaru's father dies and he ends up with mother.

I agree with the big-brother/sempai/fatherhood figure thing, especially since Hikaru's father died in the air circus. But Misa as mom? Ewwww.... Now that's getting freaky. I wonder if their kids had any extra arms or something?

Seriously, I don't think he made that much of a connection with her until mid-way through the series. I think he considered her more of a pain in the @$$ bridge officer who constantly put his and his men's lives on the line from the safety of the bridge. Maybe she was a female in a position of authority, but to be truly 'oedipal' implies there was affection there, which I just don't recall seeing evidence of until maybe half-way through the war. Maybe it was a kind of love/hate thing esp towards the end of the series, but I don't see anything that stands out as particularly maternal.

Interesting idea, though, btw.

Edited September 22, 2003 by Batou

[Abombz!!]

You guys are all wrong... he died just so Hikaru could get the "Super" robot (the VF1S) of the show. <_

[bsu legato]

You guys are all wrong... he died just so Hikaru could get the "Super" robot (the VF1S) of the show.

Yeah, it's what my friends and I have termed the "Shiny New Gundam" syndrome. A new and improved mecha is always preceeded by a tragedy and a period of introspection.

[Hurin]

Yeah, I gotta say. . . too much reading into things here.

He was never a main character. He might be a favorite. . . but he's hardly a main character (same goes for Max people. Sorry, but it's true). There are entire episodes where he doesn't even appear (or has only one or two speaking lines). I can see how someone just reading the books might get confused about this, but while watching SDF Macross, it would be pretty hard to be confused over who was the main hero of the story.

Roy's death was a standard part of the war story formula. And, I think the combat that led to his death was so non-climactic because they just wanted to convey the sense that his "number was up."

Just my opinion,

[Abombz!!]

Yeah, I gotta say. . . too much reading into things here.

He was never a main character. He might be a favorite. . . but he's hardly a main character (same goes for Max people. Sorry, but it's true). There are entire episodes where he doesn't even appear (or has only one or two speaking lines). I can see how someone just reading the books might get confused about this, but while watching SDF Macross, it would be pretty hard to be confused over who was the main hero of the story.

Roy's death was a standard part of the war story formula. And, I think the combat that led to his death was so non-climactic because they just wanted to convey the sense that his "number was up."

Just my opinion,

Thats why I said what I did in my last post. Its even more obvious in super sentai shows.... side character has stronger robot then main character, side character dies, main character gets the best robot.

Although... one could argue that the 1s was not the shows signature VF.... the 1J was, as it is seen in the opening, not the 1S.

[JsARCLIGHT]

So I'm guessing no one here took any literature classes in college...

Yes the reason they killed Roy off is so Hikaru gets the "hero" fighter, but Macross is also chock full of so many literary elements and paralells that it boggles the mind. Any story that is written with a classical theme has these paralells in it.

[ewilen]

Roy's death was a standard part of the war story formula.  And, I think the combat that led to his death was so non-climactic because they just wanted to convey the sense that his "number was up."

Yup, and you're lucky if you even see it coming. (Or maybe you're not lucky.) It's quite poignant when you think about it. Roy was great. He wasn't invincible. No one is.

JsArclight: The Oedipal take on the topic is interesting, but you have to remember that the specifics of the Oedipal myth are part of western culture, with a bit of extra emphasis coming from Freud. They're not universal. In a more general sense, we can certainly say Roy was somewhat of a father figure, that Roy's death is a key step in Hikaru's growth, and his eventual choice of Misa--a mature woman who comes from the world of responsibility, the kind of woman he used to think of as a "sourpuss" and a nag--is a manifestation of that growth.

Edited September 22, 2003 by ewilen

[0Coota0]

I realize he died for a reason, but I always wondered why he didn't go to sickbay when he got back to the ship, and if he was bleeding that badly why no one noticed, ground crew might be busy,but when Claudia hugged him, you'd think she'd notice that sticky red spot.

[Abombz!!]

I realize he died for a reason, but I always wondered why he didn't go to sickbay when he got back to the ship, and if he was bleeding that badly why no one noticed, ground crew might be busy,but when Claudia hugged him, you'd think she'd notice that sticky red spot.

He probably figured out his time was up... and that he rathere spend his last few hours with the woman he loved then hooked up to some machine in a hospital.

And I doubt the huge blood spot showed up right away... he probable patched himself up on the locker room or something.

[EXO]

Remember the faces of those 2 guys that looked into the cockpit? (Maybe I'm not remembering this correctly either) But I seem to recall these 2 guys that looked in and it seemed pretty obvious he left a lot of blood in there.

But oh well... like they say...

It's better to burn out, than to fade away... unless you're Kakizake.

[Abombz!!]

Remember the faces of those 2 guys that looked into the cockpit? (Maybe I'm not remembering this correctly either) But I seem to recall these 2 guys that looked in and it seemed pretty obvious he left a lot of blood in there.

But oh well... like they say...

It's better to burn out, than to fade away... unless you're Kakizake.

Still.... they probably figured Roy was getting his ass to the sickbay or something... not that he was going to play guitar and eat pinaple salad.

And besides... would he have survived if he had gone to the hospital? Most likely. WOuld he be able to fly a fighter again? I doubt it. You can't clip a birds wings and expect it to live. <_<

[MicronianDevil]

Roy's death was needed for Hikaru to grow as a character.

[MicronianDevil]

In a more general sense, we can certainly say Roy was somewhat of a father figure, that Roy's death is a key step in Hikaru's growth, and his eventual choice of Misa--a mature woman who comes from the world of responsibility, the kind of woman he used to think of as a "sourpuss" and a nag--is a manifestation of that growth.

Another thing that comes to mind is Misa losing Riber in the Unification Wars. Both Hikaru and Misa lost very close loved ones to war which I think brought then together more. Hikaru grew to Misa's maturity when Roy died and looked past Minmay who did not mature until the reality of the war hit her when they landed back on earth after it was destroyed.

In other words, Hikaru and Misa grew closer through tragedy.

[Gubaba]

Roy's death was a standard part of the war story formula.  And, I think the combat that led to his death was so non-climactic because they just wanted to convey the sense that his "number was up."

Yup, and you're lucky if you even see it coming. (Or maybe you're not lucky.) It's quite poignant when you think about it. Roy was great. He wasn't invincible. No one is.

JsArclight: The Oedipal take on the topic is interesting, but you have to remember that the specifics of the Oedipal myth are part of western culture, with a bit of extra emphasis coming from Freud. They're not universal. In a more general sense, we can certainly say Roy was somewhat of a father figure, that Roy's death is a key step in Hikaru's growth, and his eventual choice of Misa--a mature woman who comes from the world of responsibility, the kind of woman he used to think of as a "sourpuss" and a nag--is a manifestation of that growth.

No...I think JsArclight has a good point here. The Tale of Genji (generally considered the supreme masterwork of Japanese literature, as well as the world's first novel) is shot through with Oedipal themes. Prince Genji's mother dies soon after bearing him; when his father marries a girl who everyone says looks EXACTLY like her, Genji starts getting interested. And yes, he does eventually sleep with her. Even worse, she has a kid by him.

Perhaps I'm pushing the analogy too far by pointing out that that Genji is often referred to in the book as Hikaru, or "the Shining One."

Sorry, this is somewhat off-topic. As a former English major, I just had to jump to JsArclight's defense...

[Wes]

So I'm guessing no one here took any literature classes in college...

Yes the reason they killed Roy off is so Hikaru gets the "hero" fighter, but Macross is also chock full of so many literary elements and paralells that it boggles the mind. Any story that is written with a classical theme has these paralells in it.

Yeah, I always thougth of him as the "Mercutio" of the story.(Dude from Romeo and Juliet)

[JsARCLIGHT]

As a former English major, I just had to jump to JsArclight's defense...

I'm not so sure my point needs a defense as with most literature it is just my interpretation of it (but being an English minor it is always nice to have a better back you up). You do bring up a good point though that almost all cultures have the same "Story elements", they just call them different names. One man's Oedipus is another man's Genji. Also, all of the elements do not need to be present for something to be seen a certain way... if there are enough of them you can construe any point you want.

I bet if you dig deep enough you can classify and quantify Macross as almost any kind of story.

[Gubaba]

As a former English major, I just had to jump to JsArclight's defense...

I'm not so sure my point needs a defense as with most literature it is just my interpretation of it (but being an English minor it is always nice to have a better back you up). You do bring up a good point though that almost all cultures have the same "Story elements", they just call them different names. One man's Oedipus is another man's Genji. Also, all of the elements do not need to be present for something to be seen a certain way... if there are enough of them you can construe any point you want.

I bet if you dig deep enough you can classify and quantify Macross as almost any kind of story.

I always viewed it as a story about how crappy consumer culture will always defeat militaristic jingoism.

Just as Macross 7 is about how if one keeps doing the same thing over and over, no matter how stupid, someone will find some use for it somehow.

EDIT: Sorry again. I'll shut up now.

Edited September 22, 2003 by Gubaba

[EXO]

Roy's death also makes the viewer realize their investment in these wonderfully crafted characters. I was watching the series over with my nephew, who is 7, and I wasn't sure if I should have shown him that episode. After much deliberation, I decided to go ahead and let him see it. He was a greatly saddened, but he but his interest and understanding became more complex after that episode. His questions became more intuitive beyond 'why do they have such big hair?' He actually learned the difference between each type of VFs, when Hikaru started piloting the skull. In the end I'm glad, because he asked what happened to the 1J and why Hikaru was flying Roys Valkyrie, which meant I had to reveal Roy's death anyway...

[Hurin]

He probably figured out his time was up... and that he rathere spend his last few hours with the woman he loved then hooked up to some machine in a hospital.

Or, in typical fighter-jock-bravado-style, he just figured: "It's just a scratch. . . i'm going to get laid!"

Which, to my mind, is more the Foker style.

[ewilen]

I'm not particularly disagreeing with either of you, especially as it's true that general themes appear in different literatures. I'm saying, rather, that attempting to fit the Hikaru-Roy-Misa story to the specifics of the Oedipus myth may be diverting, but it doesn't completely work--first, because it doesn't do justice to the actual story and characters (they aren't shadows or types of the Oedipus story), and second, if we believe in taking the author's intent into account (not everyone does, admittedly), the Oedipus myth may be somewhat irrelevant. (Not that I'm saying Kawamori et. al. were ignorant of the Western literary tradition; simply that the WLT probably doesn't loom as large for them as it would for James Joyce or an English major.)

From my microscopic knowledge of Genji, I don't see much of a similarity there, I'm afraid, either to Macross or to Oedipus.

I'm sure Joseph Campbell would have something to say; maybe he could even classify the Hikaru story into the exact variation on the "young man coming of age" theme.