one_klump Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 My God people, I just read through SIX pages of bickering over a make-believe robot. Lets do something constructive with all this energy, like make a YF-19 Fast pack or somthing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingNor Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 My God people, I just read through SIX pages of bickering over a make-believe robot.Lets do something constructive with all this energy, like make a YF-19 Fast pack or somthing... the front page of the site clearly states this is macross world. if you dont' like it you can leave! the end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anubis Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 My God people, I just read through SIX pages of bickering over a make-believe robot.Lets do something constructive with all this energy, like make a YF-19 Fast pack or somthing... meh, 6 pages is nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinabalu Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 mayb3e this pic will help.... enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingNor Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 mayb3e this pic will help.... enjoy oh dear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetsujin Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 My God people, I just read through SIX pages of bickering over a make-believe robot. So which is worse: the fact that people wrote all this bickering that doesn't appeal to you, or the fact that you just read it all? I haven't seen Ep. 5 yet, so I'm a little bummed that I read this and got the minor spoilage (my fault) - but damn... I'm glad there's a Monster in Zero! I like how close it is to the original design. I love how they took the original legs and feet and made them a bit more detailed... The feet look more articulated now - the articulation in the toes was always there but now it's better represented. The claws don't bother me so much... I'm used to the "prototype is better" nonsense that's pervasive in Gundam so I don't mind that they're removed later on, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JValk Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 the best image was Sara checking out the Monster through her "Kadun-vision" - that was some scary-arse crap. The Monster had some serious evil Kadun mojo swirling around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 (edited) And it is in fact one of the number one reasons why "tactical" shooters don't play out tactically, and why real life tactics don't work... because it's possible to strafe, dodge, zig zag, and shoot at the same time in a way that it's just not possible in real life. Real world tactics fail because the real world tactics are made to deal with real life humanoids as a real life humanoid. Games simply eliminate most of the physical effects involved in real life moving and shooting, and simplify it with something that just doesn't follow any form of real world physics. I agree. Which is why I said the rules of the real world should not always be aplied to the rules of the creator's world as they have different technology which can't be compared with anything we might try to come up with. We clearly see battroids moving like humans hiding behind buildings for cover, and generally avoiding (dodging) enemy fire as if it made a difference. My idea about limbs only explains that because this IS possible to do in that world, (and not in the real world) its use (of limbs) is justified because it (dodging) WORKS in that world. Similar to how I can accept the reasoning about why putting legs on a giant machine is still practical, because in THIER world, they found out how to make these things run fast. (which we in the real world probably haven't done) It's like a comic book. If superman were real, and kryptonite was real and I use kryptonite against superman to make him weak, then going by the creator's rules: superman must "react realistically" if kryptonite is used on the hero. There is comicbook "realism", and real realism. I'm trying to justify the use of limbs in the comic book realm and rationalise thier use under the creator who put limbs there for a reason. (eg Limbs are needed because: ....because the UN expected to fight giants and need to open giant doors and may need to manipulate giant sized equipment) I'm not saying these are going to replace tanks or that wheels will be superceded by legs in the real world. Just that a monster with legs has it's own "fictional justification" in macross just as the need for giant hands on the VF. There are many instances where the characters get close and personal to the giants. Urban settings where you can't see, inside a giant ship, when they've run out of ammo and have to physically fight,(the scene with britai ripping off the chest plate) when the earth forces have depleted ammo supplies etcetc... There are also fictional settings and fictional situations for the reason behind a battroid mode. You will notice many times the pilot changes to battroid mode when he gets close and the micrmissiles start to swarm. Maybe because he can freely gun them down easier when he is holding a gunpod in his hands and spread the fire as opposed to shooting them in fighter mode where your line of fire is limited to the centre of the plane? These are all just explanations to make-believe situations. A bipedal mechanical body moving at speed would also encounter the same sorts of instability that would require extremely advanced software to negotiate and eliminate. Granted, the body itself could also be designed to minimize such instability, but the technology and complexity and engineering involved is extreme. But the same thing coult be said about antigravity. (and there are already hints that antigrav may have been solved by some genius and the information is too controversial to be handed out to just anyone) Ever heard about ufos? We don't know what kinds of emerging technologies might spring up in the future (which is what futurists must do by not just modeling ideas off obvious stuff that we already know about today) that will solve those very problems you bring up. And the computers become more advanced every 2 years. This is what I mean by being open-minded. You as a scifi author must assume the problems were already solved somehow and explain with as little or as much detail as possible how it all works. Heck, I don't complain when I see stupid impractical things in minortiy report that just don't make sense (like that little spiral rail where gumballs ride down ) because I can keep an open mind. Just because it doesn't make sense to us yet, we shouldn't automatically dismiss it so easily. I think part of the reason why people hate magic so much is merely because anything metaphysical has not been easily understood with a model and it gets out of thier comfort zone so they have this witch hunt mentality where "if nothing makes sense to me, I just can't enjoy it". or "If Neo in the matrix can jump in the air and dodge bullets because he can predict what the enemy does then its not worth explaining how he can do this with fictional ideas and fan theories, because it just isn't realistic." Modern tanks already have extremely complex and accurate targeting computers that compensate for moving over somewhat rough terrain. Like another poster said, targetting's a snap, and you're misjudging their capabilities. Strafing would likely be easier-- just turn your tank sideways and go forward and reverse. And it'd be infinitely smoother than some giant mechanical reproduction of a human trying to do the same thing, having to deal with all the human body's problems with shooting accuracy and stability, just over smooth terrain. A tank can knock out targets a mile away doing this. A human with a sniper rifle doing the same can't even hope to hit something beyond some tens of yards. Advanced software and advanced mechanical design can work to minimize the problem, but with limbed and sudden side to side movement, you have much more inherent instability and innacuracy to deal with... not less. Ok but the terrain is really rough. Like ditches and hills that just make trying to shoot at things behind those hills impossible because they are not in your line of fire all because you are bogged down and need to climb up first. I find that a giant legged robot like the regult which could leap, duck, hop, boost-jump and run over certain obstacles may have an easier time because the legs only have to touch a small portion of the surface in negotioating those obstacles, ..instead of rolling over them. This isn't unreasonable considering that the mechs may have to negotiate all type of different surfaces where having treads means a bumpy unpleaseant ride because it takes a larger surface area. And I'm sure somebody will be able to provide some kind of dampening effect to lessen the bumpiness in a mech, (similar to what they use in amusement rides) and allow for legs to only clamp down on a surface and stretch according to the variable height. Check out the forest walker for eg.: A regult could hop from one cliff to another, jump to the crest of the hills without needing to roll down the hill first. It would eliminate the time for rolling down the hill, and then climbing up the hill, when it could just jump from crest to crest of each hill and keep a height advantage over rolling targets that are bogged down at the bottom of the hills by shooting them from above. It would be easy to kill tanks and outmaneurer them. And unlike flying machines they can stay low to the ground if they wanted to. Helicoptors and other flying machines can co-exist with these. But why do we have to say there is absolutely no purpose for using legged mecha when the fictional world shows them jumping like kangaroos and thier tech is advanced enough to allow things the real world hasn't allowed for? Strafing?: Inside the belly of a zentradi ship you may not have time to turn the treads first and then move sideways. You might need to just move immediately out of sight without the turning and steering first. When you play dodgeball, do you see people turning thier body in the direction they want to move before avoiding the ball? Nope you see them stepping sideways and leaping out of the way without turning thier feet. It's more efficient this way. If somebody was about to shoot you with a gun and they just hadn't fired it yet, you would do the same thing. You wouldn't turn your body and then run. If armed, you would even hide behind the wall, and only expose yourself enough to be able to get a clear shot. When you consider that the gunpod is just a giant machine gun (and sometimes it jams) then it helps to imagine how the battroid would act. (like a giant human soldier) As for your constrained example... some gigantic hallways... firstly, I'm not sure what military objective would have gigantic hallways constructed conveniently for robots to fight in. And secondly, if by hallways you mean urban areas, anti-tank infantry units would largely have a field day on bipedal robots with huge profiles and have got to be easy as snot to hit. That's true we even see them in macross zero when the UN soldiers are shooting the submerged Octos mechs with those rocket launchers. But just because they (anti-tank/anti-mecha people) exist doesn't eliminate the existance of the machines. If the antitank guys were so effective, I doubt we would even see mechas at all in macross right? My constrained examples are just situations that might demonstrate the need for limbs, which is the purpose of the debate in the first place. Remember though, that I'm not saying legs are going to replace wheels or treads in the real world, (actually I said there is no need for there to be a war between them, since they can co-exist) rather, I was just explaining thier fictional use in the fictional macross world. Like the fictional fact about how superman is supposed to be weak against kryptonite. He doesn't fricken exist but it's still fun to know why he becomes weak right? There are rules in the world about why things are like that. It's important to realise that some science fiction first asks you to understand these rules/lore of thier world, before you can actually make sense of them because they are not modelled on reality and its laws, which are NOT related to the laws in the creator's fictional world. Matrix is a perfect example where they have 1 world that is real and one where the characters can dodge bullets, and have jedi-like perception to see things ahead of time to respond quickly. Of course, it's not "real" to us that they could do that, but it (the matrix) offers an fictional comicbook explantion as to WHY they can do it, just like a majority of anime out there. Nobody promised macross was to be modelled on hard reality. So people are being unfair when compare our world with macross fictional world. Apples and oranges. Sure, it may have been inspired by something that was seen in real life (Like how a vf1 just so happens to look like a f14 so we understand that it is aerodynamic enough for flight) but it is not playing by the rules of realism. (the vf1 moving like a completely different animal, smashing into a concrete overpass as if it were made of clay) Completely rocky and nearly impassable terrain's another matter, and with the technology required to create limbs able to negotiate that sort of terrain with agility, it'd probably be better just to slap such retractable limbs onto a tank, perhaps modify the turrent to allow for more extreme angles of aim, keep all the advantages of a tank, and be done with it. That would be a good idea. I often wonder why the Monster doesn't just have a turret. I've often thought of lots of mechs as just vertical tanks anyway. The ones with lots of firepower and armor are the slow ones (the tanks, like the monster) and the ones that can fly around and attack sensitive targets which possess more mobility thanks to thier humanoid 'suit' design are the 'fast' ones. A VF battroid and a Qrau would probably outclass a monster for example. (hell maybe a battroid could act as the 'anti-tank' guy against the larger mechs) To the guy asking about the dinobot: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/leglab/home.html There is some footage there of it moving around. Click "Troody" from the list. Edited November 5, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLYC Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 low vis: you truly amaze me how much you write...are you a literature major or something? i've stopped reading a first couple cuz i think your arguments are flawed, but i do give you credit for at least trying to back up your stuff with some research. i think you can put together a masters thesis with the stuff you wrote in this thread...jeez.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LORD KUNGFU Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 (edited) Low viz, I understand your argument. But, im also going with you on the fact lets say it is possible for the mech to move like humans or better. Im not saying that it will never be possible. Its just is not better in a war time situation or even it a macross situation. Humans get shot easily, so a mech jumping around will still get shot easily too. That walker is really neato too, but a tank would roll over those logs like pencils, and I dont see that walker being able to do anything more than a tank, exccept not destroy the ground that it walks on as bad as a tank. So, it would be more enviromentally freindly, which is cool too. I just saw alien vs. predator today, and it made me think about snow and ice. What the hell is a walker going to do on snow and ice. They always use treades vehicles for snow and ice. Even with millions of years of evelution behind making us what we are today, or what ever believe you may have of our existance, we as humans still can not walk on ice, with out help from special tools. Also, another thought, why didnt the zentradi make really large vehicles. Could you imagine the size of a zentradi tank or car. They could have just squashed us like ants. Low viz, I am not saying the macross or sci fi has to make sense. Its pretty obiouse that the creators think up things for entertainment value. And thats my whole point, is that becuase the creators design things a certain way, not because it would be better for a certain purpose or situation, but would be better for the show. So, a jet that tranformed into a robot would really not be better, even if real life was just like in macross. There would be much better ways to get the job done with out transforming jets or walking vehicles. Even if giants were our opposition. On a side note....why didnt they make tanks that transformed, or anything else, like cars.....ect..... Edited November 4, 2004 by LORD KUNGFU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinabalu Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Lol....... maybe they should add Transformers into the Macross World. C'mon chill out guys. It just an anime, we watch anime for fun and pleasure, Not for us to argue how it will applied to our world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingNor Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Lol....... maybe they should add Transformers into the Macross World. C'mon chill out guys. It just an anime, we watch anime for fun and pleasure, Not for us to argue how it will applied to our world. maybe YOU do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zentrandude Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 after looking at the pics of the 6 legger logger. i noticed the land is pretty much flat with no dead wood on the ground and the part of the forest there in is very thin. where I live the forest is much thicker and more rougher that thing wouldn't be able to get off the road. btw logging here we use ppl and a helicopter in case your wondering. if you want a high speed mech, nature already has proven a 4 legged design is more stable and way faster than a biped design but mechanicly it would be hard to make like cats have amazing landing ability with the spine able to strech out and some other things that i cant remember . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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