Bri

BTW, what are the NATO reporting names for the J-10 and JF-17?

NATO/ASIC(used to be ASCC) names are in principal classified except ones that get leaked. The names for the J-10 and JF-17 are not in any list I know of. Don't think they are publically know yet.

From what I have read on cases with trademarks is that foreign firms in the US often spread their trademarks to widely. I.e try to cover to many product types. Regulations require for the registration to be succesful, you'd need to be active in all areas you want to register for. It's quite possible that this happened to BW.

Also, it is not illegal what HG did, but they can't expect that BW ever wants to have dealings with them again.

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I got a Q regarding shipped packages and customs...

I've started using a European address for my online orders.

Recently I ordered two items from HLJ.com, I received both, but they were inspected by customs, and I was slammed with additional charges (one package was Michel's VF-25G DX ).

Is this normal?! Can I expect all my packages to be inspected (plus additional charges) in the future?

Yea, quite likely. Most delivery services check in goods at customs themselves and Value added Tax (VAT) is charged when importing items from outside of the EU. Over certain amounts you can also expect import duties.

Wont happen really, I have seen SDFM twice a year since 1987 and I doubt that will change anytime soon.

Still the one thing I can imagine:

Warners RT movie becomes a big succes. They buy everything Macross and under supervision from Macek incorporate everything in to the RT universe. Then yea, that would kill it for me.

From the news: the Dutch government is going to sign an agreement before the end of april for the purchase of two test F-35s and when that happens it will be certain that 85 F-35s will replace the remaining F-16AM.

Till recently Saabs Grippen had a chance, but the airforce and the ministry of defence strongly opposed the Swedish plane. There is strong public opposition to the plans and parlement is investigating misinformation charges about costs but its very likely that the purchase will continue.

Wonder if it will turn into the Starfighter II instead of Lightning II...

Yeah, I agree completely...except about the Odyssey being escapist (Trojan War lit was an early specialty of mine in college).

technique is an important part of course, as you say; and one of the things I always liked about anime is that a lot of it is frankly avant garde. Lalah's death in MSG, a good portion of Flashback 2012, countless scenes in Evangelion, ALL of Lum the Forever...there's a lot of very innovative film work in anime, but I don't see much in Frontier, beyond the very well-done 3D/2D combination, and the way that some times in the show, the opening scene of the episode would actually fit in near the end of the episode ("Friendly Fire" did this especially well, I thought). What WAS truly innovative, I thought, was the use of every conceivable death flag for Ozma in episode 17, all to come to...nothing. Not only does it take courage for the creators to take a route like that, but it also shows trust in the audience and an appealing sense of playfulness.

That trust in the audience, and the gusto with which they subverted expectations, is the main thing that makes me see the intended audience of Frontier as being older than that of your average giant-robot-toy-commercial anime. It was definitely made for people who know their Macross, and especially for those who know their anime tropes. Which cuts out the young'uns.

Yes, I can only agree on the technique part. I think also a few themes in Macross which are interesting aswell. Macross'/Kawamori's recurring view on human beings for example. He shows a faith in mankind that is only rivaled by Roddenberry, quite unique in Science Fiction which tends to play on our fears and the darker side of our souls. Most anime tend not to put the blame on individuals but are seldomly positive about the human condition.

Another thing I like about Frontier is the challenge made by Kawamori to the audience. "So you have seen Macross, but did you learn from it?" by introducing a physically unatractive species which is hard to relate to. The flak Ranka received by leaving Frontier to communicate with the Varija by fans shows that at least some havent. It's painful that culture-less warriors like the Zentradi had less trouble to accept Myria as a interspecies ambassador then the humans of Frontier with Ranka. Byrons "If beauty is truth then beauty is all I need to know" still holds.

It's a positive sign imo that HG is slowly moving away from anything Macross related.

However I think the previous post in its anger towards HG is a bit unfair towards some of the comic book companies. I'm a fan of some Antartic Presses works and calling them idiots and copycats doesn't do them justice, in fact Robotech: Rolling Thunder by Fred Perry is easily the best RT renditions I have seen sofar and he is a pretty good on mecha in general.

But for me (and of course, this is only MY yardstick), what really pushes an artistic work into the realm of "intended for adults" is a focus on psychological realism, rather than on plot or entertainment value. If the work presents people who are more real than the people you meet every day, it will succeed as a mature work of art, regardless of other factors (things like plot tend to fall into place once you have real, breathing characters). I don't know of any anime that focuses solely on character ("Grave of the Fireflies," maybe...), but that isn't surprising. That isn't why people watch anime. Most people want some kind of escapism, and that's fine.

Ultimately, Frontier tells a story of adventure and derring-do, and tells it in a concise way. There's some experimental work in it, but not much. It may be meant for the 25 to 50 crowd, but I think it primarily appeals to the high school kid in all of them. stre

I'm starting to understand the differences in our intents. When I refer to the target demographic I mean the physical ages and social positions of the viewers and buyers of the Macross Frontier DVDs and merchandise, not if they are watching this show through their inner child. It is certainly true that Macross Frontier appeals to the sense of adventure of the little boy inside every man.

I understand your position on psychological realism. However I am not sure if it is reasonable to assume this to be a requirement for the adult qualification in anime, movies or normal live action TV. The nature of the medium film (animation included) limits the possibilities in characterisation. Very few films reach the stage of such realistic characters and limit the time available for plot development. Screen time being one of the most scare resources a director can play with. Some of histories most acknowledged movies and filmmakers like Eisenstein, Riefenstahl and Hitchcock are often more know for their inventive use of film techniques rather then their challenge to the viewer’s intellect. Film is as much related to photography as to literature.

Literature has no visual limits and has less trouble with allowing characterisation and plot development to co-exist. Although it’s a bit ironic in this context that the first book to come to mind when talking about elaborate characterisation, Ullyses, compares the daily life of its protagonists to the escapist, fantasy like tale of Homers Odessy.

To be honest, It interests me more, too, but I don't really want to hijack the thread, either.

I dunno. Topics about how Frontiers sucks, or how character X from Frontier is useless can only go so far before they run out of steam, IMO...but that's just me.

This seems to be the right thread to crash in. And yes, being negative on a single aspect of frontier can only be productive for so long.

We've gone rather far afield from the topic, so suffice to say here that I think we're talking at cross-purposes. You, March, and I probably all have very different ideas of what a mature story is, but I think we can all agree than Frontier can be enjoyed by many people, regardless of age.

Anyway, if you want to continue this discussion, maybe we should move it over to the Frontier Talkback thread.

Fair enough, hehe. Tbh this discussion has me more interested then the original topic altough I'm sure Alto won't mind we have diverged from his proposed cut from the series.

That's a big thing there. As Western anime fandom first got established one of the most important things to convince people of was that anime was something more sophisticated and varied than what people would think of if you said "Japanese cartoons." Especially before the modern crop of Western animation that was more than simple kids' shows really developed some roots. Sometimes the convincing went too far, and you have fans that won't admit that a lot of anime is best described as "Japanese cartoons" and that even among what is something more, seriously deep and complex storytelling is an exception rather than the rule. Serious portrayals or adult themes, sometimes yes; but in the way of action, horror, soap opera, Western satire animation, etc. Even anime clearly not aimed at kids is most similar to Western forms which are generally and justifiably viewed as lighter and less sophisticated entertainment.

I can agree with saying that anime is not more sophisticated then what we see on television or in the cinema in the West. However it is more likely to find a piece of work among anime that satisfies its audience more then mainstream programs can because anime can focus on a smaller market with known preferences. Same would hold for any Western niche market in entertainment.

Respectfully, I think you're missing March's point: that most anime is of the same intellectual level of Pixar film, not that they're aimed at the same audience. Yes, there are subtle touches, innovative filmmaking and storytelling work on occasion, but most anime is something that any smart ten-year-old could follow (even the ones no ten-year-old should ever be allowed to watch).

Most anime (every Macross series included) is sophisticated for a cartoon, but not much more. Most of the stories are relatively simple, most of the characters are not fully rounded, and they can usually be watched and comprehended by anyone, regardless of what frames of reference you have. Yes, sometimes an anime can be surprisingly clever or deep, but that's the exception.

To paraphrase Samuel Johnson: "A mature anime is like a dog's walking on its hind legs. It is not done well; but you're surprised to find it done at all."

All that said, I see nothing wrong with any of us enjoying an anime. I loved Wall-E, too, although I wasn't its target audience. But I doubt there's a six-year-old who would enjoy, say, La Dolce Vita, which is probably my favorite film. Variety's a good thing, right?

I may have missed the point, perceptions can differ.

To quote W.H. Auden: "The poetry he made was simple and easy to understand", therefore it must be for children?

Macross Frontier can off course be enjoyed by children but that does not make it a child product. Which is what the discussion centered around as March claims macross Frontier is made for childeren. There is enough evidence imo to show that it was made for adults not kids even if the show has childish elements. To put it more crudely, a Mickey Mouse Dildo may be a toy but it's not for kids.

Also La Dolce Vita can hardly be called mainstream. I'm quite sure if you take a random sample of the population that they will enjoy my Big Fat Greek Wedding over Fellini's work (which probably says more about the mental state of the population then the quality of these works). It just furthers my point that intended audiences often are more restrictive of the intellectual magnitude of series instead of its creator. Sure many anime are of the level of a Pixar movie, but that goes for most live action movies and television series as well. That does not change that Pixar makes movies for kids and most late night anime is aimed at an older audience. Don't blame the medium for the demand. I doubt many six-year-olds would enjoy an anime by Fellini if he ever had made one.

By and large, most anime is of the same intellectual level as any Pixar film or the average comic book. These are not products with deep narratives, strongly conceptualized subtexts and provocative subject matter working on many sophisticated levels. Naturally, there are exceptions to every rule; your Watchmen's, your Dark Knight Return's, your Akira's and Ghost in the Shell's. However, those products are by far the minority. Digressing, we all know that most of this material is not made for adults even if adults happen to be the majority consumer. The Incredibles may be a sophisticated Pixar film, but it's still made for children and is still a children's story by any intellectual benchmark. Macross Frontier is the same.

One fundamental difference between Pixar movies and late night anime is that the first aims for a mainstream audience while the latter targets a niche market.

The products that are aimed at a mainstream audience have to conform to far more established rules and conventions. The more people you try to please, the more difficult it becomes to make something distinct and interesting. The chance to find a great movie or series is more likely with independent or non-mainstream producers. This goes for movies, books, music and television. Anime has an easier time to please its audiences as it is smaller and more homogeneous. Pixar is the best at what it does, so it's not to surprising that they can make movies that are as good, if not better then the average anime. However Pixar won't make anything of the level of say Rahxephon, Ghost in the Shell or Neon Genesis even if they could, as caters to much to the taste of the limited few.

Take for example DC comics. Most of their titles are mainstream altough occasionally a title like Batman escapes mediocrity, the vast majority is run of the mill superhero stuff. However the same publisher has a separate non-mainstream division: Vertigo. They have been creating thought provoking series regularly like Sandman, 100 Bullets, Swamp Thing and V for Vendetta. Vertigo allows more artistic freedom and aims for a more select public and can therefore adapt more easily to the particular tastes of said audience. Same company, different products.

The point I am trying to make is that Pixar makes a children’s movie that also needs to appeal to the rest of the family, while Frontier is a series aimed at adults that contains many campy, childish elements which are desired by the current (mostly adult) anime audiences in Japan. The reason why this audience wants those elements is a different discussion entirely.

Lucky Star is about as good as comedy can get.

Wow, the HLJ place is just so much more advanced then I thought. Imagined a kind of small warehouse ran by a few employees doing the online stuff, not a company of this size and scale.

The trailers looks amazing, can't wait to see the movie.

The nature of the anime market makes it that the time of broadcast tells a lot about the targeted audience. I’ll go slightly OT to elaborate:

From what I have been able to find is that the anime market has changed quite a bit since the mid-nineties. A tightening of censorship back then by the networks resulted in removing pretty much anything suggestive from prime time anime. The series that remained on daytime slots abide by the regulations. They are either family oriented series like Sazae-san or aimed at children like Pokemon and One-piece.

The networks are far less strict in terms of content for the late hours and late night anime got off the ground around 1997. These timeslots don’t have much advertising and the sponsors of anime have to pay for these shows to be shown. The only way these shows can be profitable is by selling DVD’s and merchandise. These DVDs are sold in small volumes, for example the sale of 5,000 units is considered to be a very successful title. Late night anime caters to the tastes of those who buy those DVDs. The prices for these DVDs are high, well out of reach for a teenage audience. I’m not saying young people don’t watch anime but they are not the ones that have to make a title profitable. Mainly people with loads of disposable income and free time like university students and young professionals that still live at home are the target audience. Off course their age does not exclude them of having juvenile preferences.

Oddly anime is the one medium where cute high school girls are most likely to be associated with an adult male audience.

Not claiming I know much about Japanese culture or habits but I am interested in the way the anime market works. Call it a professional deformation.

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In regard to Macross: series like SDFM and M7 were certainly targeted at a younger audience. Ova’s like Macross II and Macross Plus are from the early nineties and predate both DVD and the rise of late night anime. Most likely those Ovas tried to capture an audience as wide as possible. Macross Zero and Macross Frontier are typical late night products.

More madness around Haruhi Suzumiya. The socalled rerun will be followed by the second season which is technically now an extension of the first season, as confirmed by several Japanese Tv stations.

The amount of hype and trolling around this series is mental and no one dares to say if the second season is really coming this time. Only time will tell.

Don't really see the issue. I like the Macross II valks aswell as the Frontier ones. We are talking about tranformable jets, if you want bulky designs look at the destroids or gundam.

Time moves on and you can't expect animators not to use what they have learned in the last 25 years.

Thanks for explaining, makes sense. Over here traffic in the right lane is not allowed to overtake the left lanes so that problem doesn't really happen.

Nice job on the missle effect. Btw is that a Baneblade in the background?

My main annoyance are people who slow down the traffic in the left lane. If you not prepared to do at least 130 (80mph) stay to the right.

David, I think you should add speed control to your test! I really hate when I get behind a driver that can't keep a consistent speed. Is it really that hard to maintain a nice steady 65 mph speed instead of going between 60 and 70?

Just curious, I've driven a few times in the states but why is this so annoying? Roads do not allow to overtake them?

Problem is that Macross Frontier is not aimed at an adolecent audience at all. Given the OVA nature of the series and time of broadcast, it's aimed at the main otaku audience of 18 to 30.

Altos conflict with his father is not so much a teenager versus parent figure, but more a conflict about a mans future. Can Alto pursue his dream of flying regardless of the cost to him and others or should he conform to society and join the (family) bussines. Very much a hot issue for the 20-somethings that make up the fanbase, which does make the situation Alto is in recognisable for the viewer.

However he is not a generic blank slate nor a boy turning hero, he was never a boy to begin with. My beef with Alto is that he has a set of character traits I dislike in people in general i.e. quick to anger and rude.

With the new criteria we'd be better off calling the thread "What is your favourite mecha show".

Pretty much an impossible question. Especially as I haven't seen that much outside of mecha and scifi to make a fair comparison with the other anime genres but lets give it a shot:

Few series have had a larger impact then NGE, but its far from perfect and quite controversial.

Rahxephon is amazingly well done plot and artwise but it's quite pretentious and relatively unknown outside of mecha and hardcore anime fans.

Sazae-san has been on air since 1969 but has no impressive animation and is very family oriented.

Guess studio Ghibli has the right mix between visuals and story telling, though it suffers a tad from the needs of a mainstream title.

I'd go for Grave of the fire flies or Spirited Away for movies and SDFM for series. The latter is not even an attempt at objectivity but can't be objective about Macross.