justvinnie

I think a lot of people confuse pacifism with passivism. Pacisism doesn't necessarily mean that someone will not fight, or condone fighting, though that's often a component. It at its purest form means someone would prefer that there wasn't a need to fight. As opposed to simply being passive and just letting things happen without any action.

That's a really nice ideological distinction that I haven't given much thought. While I'm not a pacifist, I certainly would rather avoid violence if possible since the ultimate outcome inevitably is loss on both sides. I have rarely encountered a violent confrontation where one party was able to walk away completely unscathed.

Someone brought up Kamina from Gurren Lagann as a point of comparison to Basara. While it is true that neither changed during the course of their own storyline, I feel that the comparison is invalid from an ideological standpoint and is a false analogy. Kamina's action was towards the pursuit of an objective through physical violence. Basara worked towards an ideological objective through nonviolent means. Specifically, Kamina represents a "might makes right" ideology and ultimately the suppression and domination of his adversaries, while Basara worked in a different framework where the only real change one can make is a persuasive one, thus reconciling former adversaries. One could argue that both are the products of their environments (within universe as given by the back story), and thus have different outlooks on the world, but as a third party viewer, Kamina's actions represent the more generic and less interesting path for me.

That sounds like it would be a lot more interesting tale than anything else going on in this thread...

As a member of the boat generation people, my ship was raided by pirates who took all the food, fuel, and valuables we were carrying as we escaped persecution. They then left us floating on the high seas without killing anyone. It is a form of psychological torture because we have to watch each other die of starvation. Those that survive have to resort to cannibalism. It is a fate worse than death. This is not an exceptional incident. Many boat people have similar stories.

This is why I do not subscribe to pacifism. Is that interesting enough?

I think you've fallen into the trap of thinking that the only way characters can be interesting along with their story is along the path of character development and being identifiable with (i.e., have something in common with).

This seems to be particular prevalent in North American audiences but considering the popularity of Macross 7 in Japan, clearly that's not the only way a character can be interesting.

I liked Macross 7 a lot and even the character of Nekki Basara was appealing. My own beliefs aren't actually in line with him and I really have nothing in common with him besides the desire for peace (and even then I'm not a staunch pacifist). And as you noted, his character doesn't really change much during the course of the show. Still, that's not sufficient to make him a bad or a boring character to me; it's just not his development that interests me.

Things like character development and being sympathetic to the audience are simply tools that can be used to make a character interesting. However, the lack of such doesn't necessarily make such characters boring or bad. It's too often the case that characters are judged as such on the basis of the former to the point where the character really does become terrible to the judger.

Basically the pre-existing biases has made such characters unenjoyable to you and it's really too bad.

Indeed, stories can be placed on a continuum between character and plot driven. A story with a well executed plot is just as enjoyable as character pieces. Character development is but just one way for stories to develop.

I don't know that Basara is unique in that regard. Leiji Matsumoto's iconic "Captain Herlock" fits the bill as a character who has already grown into his role and everyone else is along for the ride. This works well in Herlock as the audience is given Tadashi Daiba, the typical rash young hero, to relate to and watch grow. Similarly, we're given Mylene and Gamlin in Macross 7 to fill that role.

Personally, Captain Herlock is among my favourite anime characters, and favourite stories, of all time, despite his lack of "character development".

An early life encounter with pirates has left me biased against pirate based entertainment. While I am peripherally aware of Captain Herlock and Matsumoto's status within the anime subculture, I choose not to partake. That is my own shortcoming, and I am sure that your assessment is correct.

Congratulations, you have demonstrated that you know how to use the internet. So how long did it take you to craft this “witty” response?

I love the fact that you quoted Wikipedia (which you forgot to cite, by the way). I am going to guess that none of your teachers have taught you that Wikipedia is never an appropriate reference source. I also love your attempt at slyness, underhandedly attacking my academic background, which you are completely ignorant about. Indeed, I do pity the educational system that produced you. Fortunately, I am actually doing something about it and educating whole new generations that there is a difference between having information and critical thinking about it.

By your own assertion (via Wikipedia), a moral “is a message conveyed or a lesson to be learned from a story or event.” If you continue reading the entry, you will see that, “Throughout the history of recorded literature, the majority of fictional writing has served not only to entertain but also to instruct, inform or improve their audiences or readership.” Indeed, a moral is meant to instruct and/or enlighten the audience through the lesson or message it conveys. I imply that I do not need art that is trying to force its message down my throat or try to enlighten me because I am an independent thinking human with my own world view. Instead of addressing my point, you created a straw man by implicating that I somehow meant to say that morals and morality were one and the same. A semantic debate about morals and morality, while possibly entertaining, is not something I have any desire to engage in.

Choosing to "deride and disdain banal opinions" is the purest form of empty arrogance in people today. It is the evidence that one has become willfully ignorant of anything beyond their own opinions and that is quite sad. However, each is entitled to be what they are. Attacking others because they disagree with your opinions is unfortunate.

I mince no words to make my position clear with regards to how I view the general masses. It amuses me that in attempting to chastise me from your moral high ground, you have rendered judgment on me and thus are no better than I am from your own moral code. Since I have no problems with my own world view, I have no problems with your judgment, though your own hypocrisy should force a re-evaluation of your world view. This is a perennial problem for people who subscribe to a slave moral code. The masses are mediocre (rightly so by definition) and if a member of the masses wishes to garner my respect, they will have to earn it through their own merits. I need not and seek not the acceptance of people who are not my intellectual equivalents. Furthermore, you operate on the assumption that all opinions are equivalent, when there are in fact not. I also noted how you chose to ignore my argument regarding aesthetic appreciation of the product without the benefit of witnessing the process.

Have you ever considered going to college so you don't embarrass yourself so much? Maybe you can even register for one of my classes.

As a source of personal entertainment and diversion from my daily routine, you have run dry. I have no need nor desire to prove myself to you. Therefore, you are now nothing to me.

I'm not sure if I'd call it a stroke of genius as there have been other protagonists with a heavy stroke of pacifism before Basara, like say Eiji from Layzner for example. Actually most of the things Basara does are fairly logical extensions of how to show what he's doing, to the audience.

His Valkyrie has physical speakers and a light show system to communicate that he's a musician. The Fire Valkyrie has a guitar shaped control stick so he wouldn't look so strange when sitting inside while singing music. The speaker pods deal with the whole "no sound in space" factoid by having a more visceral means of delivering music. It allows for the sponsors to keep the appearance of a robot with a gun while staying inline with the theme of the series. Some of the other aspects to Spiritia and Sound Energy are keeping in line with many popular sci-fi series in Japan.

No worse than tiny bug psychic crystals that live in your stomach :3

You've been on this board for as long as I can remember. Your posts have always been reasonable so I don't know if you missed my point or have instigated a straw man attack.

My premise is that the use of nontraditional story elements in M7 is genius. Basara as a pacifist is of no relevant issue to me nor does the manner in which he expresses it. I myself do not subscribe to pacifism. What interests me in Basara is that he is a protagonist that defies the common role that many protagonists take one: reluctant anti-hero, quest of self discovery, etc... Basara has already developed and is settled in-universe such that there is no reason for him to change. This sets the stage of interesting interactions between him and his peers. That he does doubt himself at all due to peer pressure is realistic he ends up exactly where he started. He is a hero for the fact that he holds steadfastly to his belief system. He represents extremem individualism and is what I consider a relevant version of the traditional Greek hero achetype.

That M7 stirs both people's ire and adoration is proof enough to me of its creative genius.

Then by all means let us enjoy Basara's reciprocal journey together. At least that is a story worthy of a main character. Basara has already made that journey without us and thus no longer merits the position of main protagonist.

What is more interesting, the finished room or watching someone trying paint it?

Deriding your detractors because they don't subscribe to your position only weakens your point.

An unconventional perspective has merits, but if it distracts from the "actual" drama of a story then it has no place or use in a tale. Every GOOD story is crafted with deliberate purpose to an ultimate moral end (whatever the moral the author has in mind).

Basara as a catalyst supporting character is much more palatable than one that is in your face episode after episode for no worthwhile reason other than to sing a song repeatedly and shoot potentially lethal speaker pods at you (thanks JBO... )...

Oh please, your condescension is weak.

Stories need a moral? I definitely need more proselytizing in my life. I love it when people shove their morals in my face because I'm a nobody with no independent thoughts and beliefs of my own.

Stories need a main protagonist that goes on a journey? So I guess you only like stories that are formulaic and trite.

A well done room is just as enjoyable as a watching the process of it becoming such. If you can't go into a room and enjoy it for what it is, then I pity you and your need to see the process. Besides which, most processes are boring to observe; an understanding of process is just as useful as witnessing it. That is unless you really do enjoy watching paint dry or grass grow.

Whatever, if you want to subscribe to the whole "everyone's opinion matters", then that's up to you. I consciously chose to deride and disdain banal opinions harbored by the mediocre masses. If you (or anyone else) want to take offense to that, then it is ultimately your problem and not mine.

M7 (and by connection Basara) is genius stroke of creativity in terms of setup and concept. It's execution could have been better.

Didn't realize there were so many people who subscribed to submissive mediocrity.

If you're right, then you're right. Who gives a damn about what everyone else thinks? Basara is by far my favorite Macross character because he's not emo, doesn't need to grow up. He's got his crap together.

Just because M7 uses an unconventional dramatic perspective from conventional stories does not diminish its merits. Besides which, Basara as a character does undergo change though out the show. He engaged in a journey of self-discovery that ultimately led him back to the starting point. His beliefs are ultimately justified. If you are looking at end points, then yes, there is no change, but if you are looking at the path he takes then you realized he made a full circle.

Sorry to nit-pick, but I really hate it when the word "deconstruction" is misused in that way. Deconstruction is a method of READING texts, not WRITING or CREATING them.

Hahaha! Nerd alert! Oh wait, I understand and agree with what you are saying...

I haven't seen Prime, but I can say that I have never liked any squishie characters in any TF incarnation. It's call Transformers not Squishies. The fact that the squishies are kids makes it ever so much worse because what does it say about the Autobots when they allow kids to be in mortal danger? At least G1 squishies were adults (Sam was a construction worker, etc).

I love M7 and Basara Nekki. Back in grad school, I was in a depressive bout because I was unsure of what I was doing with my life. I thought cancer research would be personally fulfilling, but it wasn't what I truly wanted and was passionate about. M7 helped me through the depression, and I changed majors and am now doing what I am truly passionate about. I understand why people hate M7 and Basara, but I disagree with each and everyone of them.

Every other site I use does it and I keep closing out MW because it loads in the parent window.

vinnie

Pseudo Zentran variable fighter .... inspired by Macross II?

If may look different than the YF-21, but that design totally reminds me of it

Another mole in CTU?!?

What a twiiiiiiiiiiiist.

Think of it as a theme in 24. Kinda like how every Macross series has transforming planes. Every 24 season has a mole.

vinnie

Took out a tank once with a chariot on the original Civ game once. Actually turned the whole game around for me. I was playing at the highest difficulty and as usual everybody had the good tech b4 me, but by taking out the tank with my little chariot I was able to roll straight into an enemy city, steal the tech for tanks and from that point I was eventually able to win the game. Good stuff, but VERY unrealistic.......

Taksraven

Haha.... I once tried to do a coastal bombarment of a city with my battlleship in Civ 1 and a phalanx destroyed it. That's when I knew the unit mechanics were off.

vinnie

Robotech on The Electric Playground.

http://www.elecplay.com/newsdate/2010-02-08

Narrator's official site; he's still alive!

http://johnjsmith.com/

Wow... Carl acted liked he created the story from scratch as opposed to using the stories created by someone else and limited to the existing animation.

"What we wanted was a show that would talk to children in a way that was not demeaning. It empowered them. We showed what war was all about. We saw characters die. We saw characters fall in love. We saw life in a way that no kid could experience in cartoons before."

vinnie

Spoiler tags if you please.

Season 2 hasn't even started airing here yet.

Graham

Can't you just stream it or torrent it? Anyhoo, I deliberately tried to be cryptic. I liked this series a lot for the philosophical, moral, and theological implications. I think the show as a whole couldn't succeed in the ADHD social culture that is prevalent today. It's cerebral nature made it inherently difficult to grasp.

vinnie

No comment on the series finale? I liked it. I think two seasons is appropriate for the premise of the series. Disliked the Big Bad reveal. He just doesn't ooze evil. The Whiskey as Clyde vs. Echo fight was hot. Ending was a bit cheesy with Ballard.

vinnie

That's it I give up this series is sooo patently bad. I keep giving it a chance but I feel like the idiot that got strung along. It's sad because the show had so much potential but the writers are afraid of taking risks and killing off popular characters, characters never change and grow, characters persist in making boneheaded decisions.

How many times must Sylar under the whole redemption plotline? Just let the character die already. He doesn't add anything to the stories.

How many times is Claire not going to trust HRG's judgment? Everytime she tries to do it her way, people get hurt. Reason with a serial killer with super powers who sank an entire town, yeah really smart.

Will Hiro ever stop being a man-child? Nuff said

When will Peter stop being the village idiot? Seriously save a serial killer who killed your brother and tried multiple times to kill you based on some vague dream whose context you don't understand.

I'm not really interested who this season ends at all. Its just painful to sit through each ep.

vinnie

Basara did use landing gears as I recall. There's one scene where his valk backs out of a landing pad in fighter mode and launches. I think its the ep where Mylene gets kidnapped in the cargo container and then City 7 folds out under the Protodeviln control. I might be wrong though...

vinnie

It's never been bad enough for me to justify paying that much more money for that much less machine. And maybe my experience with OS 9 just soured me to all things mac. I remember having to save my data on my brand new G4 every 10 minutes because I just didn't know when it would crash or hang up... and it was still noticeably slower than my 2 year older windows 2000 box running the same software (illustrator) working on the same file.

Never used OS 9 so I can't comment. I think OS X is better than XP and Vista. Haven't tried 7 so I don't know.

vinnie

What? you pay 30% more for the absolute latest in last years middle of the road technology, all wrapped up in shiny aluminum, with a reskinned and declawed linux OS... what's wrong with that?

All I have to say is that I use both Windows XP and OS X depending on which computer I use and my Mac has waaayyy less issues than my PC. Whatever the tech specs and whatnots maybe, the end user experience for me has always been more favorable for a Mac.

Not to start a Mac vs PC war or anything.

vinnie

snip

Wow all the drama of late. I'm just glad that my sig is so relevant during times like this.

vinnie

Didn't want to start a thread about this. Interesting to be sure...

http://www.toplessrobot.com/2009/12/8_reas...han_macross.php

Macross will always be better than Robotech for the simple reason that it was the original. Without Macross there is no Robotech.

I liked Robotech as a kid but jumped ship when I saw the original.

vinnie

yeah just look at Twilight for example

the story is crap but it appeals to the morons, and sadly there are more morons than intelligent folk...

and like Robotech, Twilight is hard to take seriously....

especially when you know about the vampire C section and realize Bella is just a self insert of the author.

which brings me to the next question.. how in the hell did that series

become so popular?

Here's a technical breakdown.

How Twilight Works

vinnie

Came across this spoiler in another forum I go to, but I think the original source is "some guy at the IMDB boards"--about 3 eps from now, the following will happen:

Sylar, in getting "revenge" on people, as well as now having Matt's power, will swap HRG and Angela's minds

Actually that is one of my fave plot devices in a show for an ep--usually only occurs in Sci-Fi shows and cartoons though. Though IMHO if it's done early in a series it's to flesh out the characters, and if done late it means they're running out of plotlines.

PS--they're doing like X-Men comics etc with the Haitian's name----people always used his alias before, but now all of a sudden everybody uses his real name.

I'm so sick of Sylar. How many times do the "hearoes" have to kill him before he's permanently DEAD? This series could be so much more if only they took risks instead of playing it safe all the time and creating all these crappy plot lines.