Invid99

11 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

DYRL? deliberately reworked the Zentradi more overtly alien without taking away their basic humanoid appearance, and that meant going whole-hog on the already design aesthetic of their gear.  So their ships and weapons went from being organically-styled to actually part-organic.  

Boddole Zer's flagship in the movie is actually a lot smaller than its TV series counterpart, which was so vast that its height was equivalent to the length of the Japanese isles on Earth (1,400km).  The problem is it was so vast that there was no way to properly convey in the series just how astonishingly colossal it was.  Despite being only a tiny fraction of the size of its TV counterpart with a wingspan of 600km and a center section around 160km across (making the center section slightly larger than the second Death Star from Star Wars) it does rather a lot better job of looking big because it's small enough to be put next to something we can properly perceive the scale of.

Didn't it looked a bit different in the tv version if I remember correctly? It's been a long time since I've watched Super Dimension. 

12 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There have been scenes in Star Wars that have acknowledged Macross as an inspiration.

To the best of my knowledge, this is not one... though your picture is not showing up.

Oh it didn't? It's just the intro of DYRL where you see the logo in japanese and the SDF Macross appearing from the shadows. I linked the video of Imperial destroyer appearing in exact the same way and I think maybe Gareth Evans, the director of RO had taken cues from DYRL to make that scene. 

Seeing how big the Zentraedi is, do they have to almost fold themselves inside a Regult battle pod? The Regult is slightly bigger than a Valkyrie, and a standard Zentraedi is almost the same size as the figher jet. 

The opening of Rogue One took clearly inspiration from the appearance of SDF-1 

Not so many talk about this ship, but I love it. Especielly this shot from DYRL. The fortress looks something from HP Lovecraft horror.

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

On-topic!

As you offer no explanation for WHY you would make these changes or how they would improve the show, I am left to infer intent. I offer my thoughts on several points, but feel free to enlighten me.

 

Why make him a fighter pilot? That is not a minor detail. Changing the main character's background and personality so drastically results in rather significant changes to the entire show. I dare say that once all the repercussions of this change ripple through the narrative, there is a good chance it won't be recognizable as Macross II anymore.

 

The story can still be the same with Hibiki finding Ishtar and developing their relationship, but just in a military pov setting. 

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

Nah. Giant borg sounds kinda lame.

...

More thoughtfully, it undermines a core theme of the franchise at the time. The enemies in Macross, despite being aliens from the other end of the galaxy, are not freakish monsters that can't be understood. They are people, not too dissimilar from ourselves. While circumstance has put them at odds with humanity, there is common ground, and if everyone would stop shooting for two seconds and just talk to each other, there might not be a reason to fight in the first place. Making the aliens overtly human helps underscore this message.

 

Certainly, the idea that even "grotesque monsters" are, fundamentally, people like us is on-brand, one that's barely brushed against in DYRL, and saw only limited exploration in Seven(despite the latter's MUCH longer runtime). It is a concept worth exploring more.

This is just my personal taste on aesthetics. I don't think they would look Borg lame if you are referring to them from Star Trek? 

Mardook don't need to look exactly like the Borg. I would replace the weird tatoos with cybernetic implants. 

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

To what purpose? Paint schemes and robot legs are minor cosmetic tweaks that seem to not make much of a difference either way. I am open to an explanation, but see no way this can make the show better OR worse, just... slightly different, but not in any meaningful way.

 

Let's point the lens elsewhere briefly to illustrate.  Would the original Gundam look better in monochrome as originally intended instead of the crayola accident forced upon the production by sponsors? Absolutely! But would it make that series better or worse in any way other than the most superficially meaningless? Not really, no.

 

Again, to what purpose? We spent basically all of the 90s determining that gore won't make a bad thing good, and a good thing isn't inherently improved by the inclusion of gore. It could emphasize the brutality of war, but since you also want to dehumanize the presentation of the mardook, I assume that is not your purpose. In light of that, I see no creative reason for adding viscera, it is just "because it is kool and edgy".

 

Both suggestions are just my personal taste. About the gore, I'm a horror fan so I like edgy animes. 

15 minutes ago, sketchley said:

There's an easy fix to that:  just call them all "VF"  (as in Variable Fighter, their technical name.  Valkyrie is their nickname.)

 

I understand.  However, look at it from a story telling point of view: the Zentraadi have defected, and most of them don't want to use the Rigaado anymore (and why should they?  They've defected and have access to much stronger, and—more importantly—more comfortable war machines.)

What about a Mardook fleet attacking a Zentraadi Main Fleet that hasn't come into contact with humans yet?  That could be the pre-credits sequence that establishes how powerful the Mardook are, in addition to vilifying them as they brainwash captured Zentraadi soldiers and turn them into cannon fodder troops.

That's a good idea! 

22 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So... this is another thread in which you complain that Macross's writers took its story in new and different directions instead of lamely rehashing the same story over and over again like a certain other series we don't talk about here? 

Disregarding all the points that are just that...

 

 

... a what now?  

Isn't that what The Show That Must Not Be Named calls its transformable aircraft?  You want him to be a plane?  Turbo Teen, but in space? 

(The proper term for which is "Variable Fighter", or "Valkyrie" for short.)

 

Macross II: Lovers Again follows on from Macross: Do You Remember Love? with interquels Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song.  The Supervision Army does not exist in that version of the story.  In DYRL?, the Meltrandi are the hostile power the Zentradi have been at war with for 500,000 years.  Instead of being along socio-political lines, the war was on gender lines.

Mind you, the Mardook are already strongly implied to be a surviving group of Protoculture like those mentioned in DYRL?.

 

... it already has that.

 

Ugh... I know that a racially-segregated military was apparently something the writers of The Show That Must Not Be Named were OK with, but Macross is a bit more with the times.

In Macross, the Zentradi who remained on Earth after the First Space War integrated peacefully into society after a brief period of adjustment and unrest.  The UN Forces in Macross II are full of Zentradi and part-Zentradi serving alongside Humans in the same units.  Most look utterly indistinguishable from Humans.  Sylvie is one, for instance.  She's a quarter-Meltran and mentions as much.  The UN Forces did have a VF called the "Zentradi Valkyrie", but it was as much a proof of concept for the VF-2 series as it was a VF meant to assist new Zentradi defectors in adapting to the UN Forces gear and it was not a unit exclusive to Zentradi pilots (rather, it was based heavily on newly-captured Zentradi tech).  The UN Forces continue to use captured Zentradi ships because why throw away a perfectly good ship whose crew had defected?

What do you think about the other points I brought up? 

Sorry for mixing with the series nobody want to talk about. I simply mixed with Veritech and Valkyrie very often. 

About the Zentraedi UN fighting the Mardook. I just wanted to see them using outdated Regult battle pods and power suit against the more advanced ones from the Mardook. 

I rewatched it again, and I see a lot of potential that could have made it much much better. What I like the best about it, is it's use of the love song theme like DYRL. It's good, but with some changes it would have been as good as DYRL. What I would have changed:

-Hibiki is not a reporter, but a Veritech fighter. 

-Story will be set more on the Gloria.  

-Mardook do not have those tatoos on their faces. They will be 8 feet tall and have cybernetic implant instead. 

-Mardook origin will be a surviving militant faction of Protoculture and be the Supervision Army. 

-Lord Emperor Ingeus will have a more cybernetic grotesque look. 

-The Zentraedi standard battle pods will be repainted to dark blue color, and have two legs. I'm gonna rip a bit off from MOESPEADA Inbit trooper and use similar legs on the pods. The command pods will not be repainted, but have legs as well. 

-The Variable Mardook fighter will be repainted to dark green. 

-Have gore. 

-Love triangle between Silvia, Ishtar and Hibiki. 

-See the UN Zentraedi forces fighting the Mardook. 

37 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Versatility, mainly... though cost was likely also a major factor.

One thing to remember about the Queadluun-Rau is that, outside of DYRL?, it's so complex, difficult to manufacture, resource-intensive (read: "expensive"), and difficult to use that the Protoculture had to literally Build a Better Pilot and restrict its use to elite forces.  It's also closer to being an aircraft than a proper battle suit.

The Nousjadeul-Ger, on the other hand, can be economically mass-produced and widely deployed to regular Zentradi forces.  It's designed to be highly versatile, and one way for it to expand that versatility is with handheld weapons.  Its main weapon is the dorsally-mounted plasma cannon, though that's only meant for medium-range engagements and is a bit on the cumbersome side.  Its secondary weapon is the fixed medium-bore rapid-fire impact cannon in its chest, but its field of fire is limited by the need to point the entire body of the mecha at the target.  The laser machine pistol is the standard sidearm deployed with the Nousjadeul-Ger because it offers a high rate of fire, balanced performance at all ranges, and the ability to aim off-axis because it's handheld.  It's also not dependent on the mecha's reactor, since it has its own internal power source.

So the Meltrandi(Macross 82 show) mainly uses Battlepods and Gnerl ships as their main forces just like the male Zentradis? 

I've always pondered why the Nousjadeul-ger suit have to carry a hand-firearm. They have the one big side cannon on the back and the middle cannon to use. Maybe they are just giving single-shot, while the hand-firearm gives automatic burst? The Quadluun-rau have intergrated guns in it's arms. 

Didn't mean to offend anybody here, so sorry for my negative attitude towards the sequels. I'm gonna get this thread deleted. 

17 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We had that.  Its name was Macross II: Lovers Again.  It did only so-so in Japan but pretty well in the west.  Had two tie-in video games, an official manga, a novelization, etc.

I believe you were complaining about it earlier.

 

You may need corrective lenses, then.

Macross Plus got kind of a lukewarm reception in Japan but western audiences even today laud it as one of the true Must-Watch titles in the mecha genre.  Macross 7 was such a huge hit in Japan that its popularity endures even today, nearly thirty years after its original broadcast. Macross Frontier... well... it wouldn't be unfair to say that show set the world on fire on its 2008 debut.  

In what seems to be a bit of a trend with the few new members who are obvious refugees from the Robotech fan community, your definition of a "true sequel to Macross" is the same dreary stagnation that has been Robotech's status quo since '86... and we all know how quickly that punishing lack of original thought 86'd Robotech's prospects.

I hated how the Mardook was portrayed yes. 

Maybe I'm just a conservative anime lover of 80's and early 90's only. 

17 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Define what a "real sequel" would be, in your eyes.

Would like to know what happen to the SDF Megaroad 01. I miss the old characters of Hikaru, Misa, Minmay, Claudia etc. 

I want a real sequel to the masterpieces from the 80's. To be honest, Macross Plus, Frontier and 7 wasn't great in my eyes, and they should be in their own universe. A new series or movie should disregard them and be a true sequel to the Super Dimension Fortress. 

19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yes, his name is Quamzin 03350.

 

Nope.  The three Nousjadeul-Ger battle suits that break into the Macross's city section near the beginning of the movie are piloted by the movie versions of the original show's lolicon trio - Roli Dosel, Warera Nantes, and Conda Bromco - who later attend Global's truce declaration as the micloned representatives of the Boddole Zer main fleet.

They're credited in the film as Roli 28356, Warera 25258, and Conda 88333.

The Nousjadeul-Ger that faceplants into the building Minmay and Kaifun were in is piloted by Conda 88333.  The person talking to him over the radio when he declares "Zentran and Meltran?!" is indicated to be Roli 28356 by the caption in the Gold Book.  Presumably he's piloting the platoon leader machine that came in with Conda's.  The third, who says "Yak deculture" is Warera.

Oh thanks. But didn't Warera get killed by Hikaru in that scene? He was the one tried to grab Minmay right?

Was that supposed to be the movie version Quamzin? Was he also the one who were inside the SDF-1 ship and about to capture Minmay? 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross made a pretty big splash when it first debuted, and is noted as an inspiration to a number of different shows from that period... the most notable of which being Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam.  

I know they are not the same, but if I had to choose one of the Zentraedi's mechs to be included in the Inbit arsenal, I would pick Queadluun-Rau. Replace the three fingers with claws and make the feet more spikey. 

14 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's a well-known fact that MOSPEADA's creators were "taking pointers" from Macross in the development of their series.

Esp. at the insistence of one of their merchandising partners, Imai Kagaku, who were adamant that the series had to prominently feature transforming fighter jets like Macross's as they were already riding that particular gravy train and wanted to keep it going.

Ah that makes sense! 

18 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not really, no... they share some basic design traits in common but aesthetically and structurally they're completely different.

The red cyclops visior makes me see the similarities with the Inbit mechas. But yes, you're right that they are totally different. 

The Battlepod, Nousjadeul-Ger(movie version) and Queadluun-Rau(tv show)suits have very similar charactistics with the Inbit mechas. The insectoid influence from the Zentraedi mechas could easily be mistaken to be Inbit forces. Repainted to red/purple colors, and human forces couldn't know the difference. 

You guys see what I mean?

29 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Super Dimension Cavalry Souther Cross has some interesting mecha. It would have been very interesting to have seen it run longer on tv.  It may have adapted better to live action than SDFM..

Yeah. My favourite are the Bioroids. I wouldn't mind see a continuation of Robotech The Sentinels and see some of the mechs with improved design, for example the Logan. Maybe Netflix can do a deal with HG? Netflix is having some success with their animations. I'm open to a live-action adaptation as well. 

10 minutes ago, Bolt said:

For it's time ,MII was pretty awesome. While it doesn't necessarily get the love and attention most other Macross does, it's still a classic. And it filled a much needed void, at the time. I personally love the designs and aesthetics of that series. And I'm an Ishtar fan boy

I'm happy you enjoyed it   I myself love Southern Cross and it's one my top animes of all time. Despite the facts that many didn't like it. 

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That would've been counter to purpose, as indicated previously.

The Mardook aren't Zentradi, and they see the Zentradi as nothing more than disposable biological automata meant for military use.

 

My point is they should have made the Mardook look better. The tatoos on their face and clothing, made them similar too typical of a fantasy anime character we've seen from other animes. Despite not being Zentradi, they could have gone for a similar appearance, since they are vaguely related(maybe descendants of the Protoculture?). Their power armor is even a bit similar to the Zentradi ones. But that's just my opinion on the Mardook. Where a couple of the stuff that annoyed with the show, but too tired to list it up  

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That would have been counter to the story's needs in a couple of different ways.

For one, Macross II: Lovers Again is not a sequel to Super Dimension Fortress Macross.  In most respects it's a sequel to the movie Macross: Do You Remember Love?.  DYRL?'s Zentradi have a very different, and significantly more alien and intimidating, aesthetic than the dated and admittedly slightly goofy 70's-esque look they had in the TV series.  IMO, taking the Mardook leadership seriously would've been a lot harder if they were rocking the same Boddole Zer's grey robe from the Ming the Merciless winter collection that looked more than slightly campy even in '82.

For two, that the Mardook are an ancient race separate and distinct from the Zentradi and with their own culture and customs was very important to the OVA's plot and message.  A good deal of their design and nomenclature is in subtle service of reminding the viewer of that fact. 

(Macross II's director strongly implied that the Mardook are a surviving branch of the ancient Protoculture civilization who created the Zentradi and Meltrandi.)

 

As a whole, the Zentradi aren't so much grounded as simply devoid of character... albeit intentionally.  Their whole schtick was that they were a clone army that had no concept of any aspect of culture or social interaction beyond military duty, again intentionally, to make them more effective and obedient killing machines.  There isn't really much that can be done with them in terms of character arcs because of this, though, which is likely why Macross so rarely revisits them as antagonists.

The Mardook, by contrast, are an ancient species with their own culture and traditions whose belief in the inherent superiority of their culture and xenophobic desire to preserve that culture from outside influence is their casus belli.  

 

Yeah, if they looked like the Zentradis from DYRL, I think I would have liked the Mardook better. Still, I find the campy look from the 82 series good. It just suffered from the animation from that time imo. 

Macross II should have just gone for a more average look of the Mardook like the Zor for example. Maybe bring back a combination of Bioroids and Zentradi power suits. 

13 minutes ago, Gerli said:

Movie? No thanks. DYRL is perfect and a real classic. A live action Macross movie it's gonna be inferior in all the ways possible.

Now a TV series... that could be a lot more interesting. 

You mean like a live-action series? Man, imagine the budghet it would require for all the CGI stuff