Paladinrja

Anyway... The discussion is the historical speculation surrounding an inter-stellar nomadic warrior race, with obvious social issues and no culture and its impact on the Macross universe, that has no clear interpretation. The idea is to cast aside what has been documented and rebuild it in context to the story. What people think may have happened and how that correlates to the ongoing story.

At the time they were still involved with the IP. Even if they are not directly responsible for producing Macross II. Its a creative process in a business. Mikimoto is part of that group which implies their involvement doesn't it? ...oh at least.

I don't have a problem with the 4:3 original presentation and its not over saturated on my TV. Its crisp and clean. Being animated I am not really sure what HD would actually bring enough to justify $50 a disc. I guess its an individual choice but it needs to be said. I run the disc through my PC which is hooked up to my TV. If its cut from the source then yeah, it would definitely benefit from a HD release in 16:9 just for all the stuff that was cut out around the edges. However as you say, its an old series produced before new techniques using computers were even on the cards. I think its fair to put it out there that some thought needs to be given as to whether its actually worth $50 a disc based on that alone.

He's the character designer. That was my point. Where did I say anything about him being Studio Nue staff? I said that there goes that theory out the window because.. well if you understand how anime is produced you should know why Mikimoto is important. Your word of advice back atchya. Firstly, I don't think you know what the word metaphorically means, I feel you mean rhetorically? Secondly, Big West have a majority share to the IP but its split up six ways from Sunday with a whole buncha business. Lets not even start with Harmony Gold and western licensing. I'm sorry but you really don't know everything. So lets not start being rude, ok? I am not interested in talking about some corporation business and the semantic arguments that come from that. My point was that Mikimoto is still the character artist. If you understand how anime is made and produced this should say a lot. Thirdly, I have never seen anything about Macross in English. To date even. Its always been in Japanese. Its the only way I know it. Tried to watch Robotech, the dialogue was so childish that I honestly couldn't watch it for long. Macross II, I am sorry to inform you, is a direct result of BW whoring out the IP becaus and nothing else. Kawamori-san didn't need to be involved and wasn't interested at that point in time in continuing the IP. DYRL? and TV '83 are essentially the same story. I don't care for arguments about what is merely filler for 36 episodes. I personally think they don't create much differentiation and DYRL? condensed the TV series very well and very maturely. I am not confusing what I want with what tropes with fans. I am curious about the same things that fans are for the same amount of time. I have lived through every second of Macross since '83. I am sorry if it bothers you that I happen to think that Macross II is pointless but in all honesty, No one asked for 80yrs into the future Macross. Not then, and not now. We are thus are 47yrs past Macross original. I only just realised you are a big fan of Macross II. Just because someone criticises something you like doesn't mean they are blasting it. I never said it wasn't worth watching, on the contrary I had actually stated that it was good for what it is. However, there is no denying it doesn't change or progress the story at all; whilst at the same time being pretty much a recap of Macross. That 80+yrs into the future played out more like it was yesterday. Really, try embracing different points of view and not reacting badly to something you simply don't want to read. Kawamori-san actually said that we would not see a return of any of the original cast. M7 kinda debunks that now, doesn't it?.

Which itself is basically a compendium of all the compendiums which have released over the years (I have most and all the Gundam bibles as well as a few other series I was into) Its kinda got a lot of loopholes as those compendiums were all released via series and other off shoot business and not predictive but kinda dependent on the story so far. They don't give much insight into the actual story. Most were just for things like mecha files and character works/bio's and the like. The meat of Macross is in the story within the anime. I don't actually think there is a critical source for the pre-history. I've had the "This is Animation" stuff for 20yrs and a buncha others. I have every Gundam pocket Bible as well and Even MS Era and various Mikimoto art books. Three cartons of this stuff. Even the two pocket books, movie companions for DYRL? set out like comics using cells from the movie (2 part). A lot of that stuff is regurgitated from all sorts of sources including inlays packaged with Model kits. Getting into a critical Macross source (at this point in time) is actually a huge undertaking where the story is concerned. The simple stuff like mecha specs and different craft etc... is already well fleshed out. There is actually very little about the pre-history societies or even the new age societies that are depicted in the various Anime. That requires some actual study and interpretation from the anime in two languages. There is no critical written source for this, the socialization of either period, nothing to bridge it all together only whats in the anime and what real life helps us understand about what might be going on.

Thanks for all the replies guys. Its great to see anyone actually wants to discuss this stuff. Most people don't seem to want to get into the backdrop story and its starting get important that we do. I get that Kawamori-san has always been mostly concerned with the foreground characters and the human stories but the backdrop is some pretty impactful and deep stuff. Alot of which seems to be lost on all these people that want to write themselves into the Macross story in things like Wiki etc. I have pored over it all and personally, I have only ever watched Macross everything in Japanese and dicussed it with Japanese fans (of which there are many). In the past, most fansite just seemed to want to be absorbed with ragging on Robotech fans which is absurd because its a totally different story that was built by three otherwise unrelated anime that each had their own following. Kinda like everyone goes nuts about the correlation between Five Star Stories and L-Gaim or Dunbine TV vs OAV in Japan Or which part of what series of Transformers is and is not part of the cannon. Who cares? Its all fun isn't it? I reckon just discuss the stories you are into and not worry about what other enjoy. Its a good thing that one series can essentially have the same story told and be enjoyed by so many fans. Robotechs second story Souther Cross kinda evolves its own story but Macross is another matter. Thats primarily why I started this thread, to discuss all the loop holes and not simply conform to what is a constantly evolving story. In Japan they don't make a big deal about what is different between DYRL? and Macross '83. The director said it was superficial and it really is if you sit and jot down the points. For instance, how does anyone even get Boddle Zer? Phonetically its very syllibalistic Bo-dol--za and Seto Kaiba its makes no sense, "fleet of the strongest women" when the Japanese use of 'strongest' is more like the western word 'Super' and 'women', implying 'chicks' more than women as a pure gender. Also Kawamori-san never said that the truth between DYRL? and TV '83 is somewhere in the middle at all. He said that both are true because both are essentially the same story. There is no disputing that, that is the case. That episode with Commander Chlore did indeed come in Encore and its very clearly set after the events where Gepnichi transforms into a an Angel and the Protodevlin discover they can transform into self sufficient beings in this dimension thanks to Anima spiritia, or rather that the "spiritia that never ends" that is not necessarily deadly to them but "over powering" was also the catalyst that enables them to exist in this space time. At the end of "Fleet of the strongest women" the caption is "...To be Fire". That signals the end of M7. Visually, everything about Macross does indeed follow on from DYRL? but they have also managed to merge the storyline of TV '83 with DYRL? very well in M7. What I am trying to get input on is this insight I have recently fallen upon (because I just got through everything up to end of M7) is how this all changes the organization of the Zentradi progressively through the cannon. Otherwise every other explanation retconns every other explanation. Its also implied and stated throughout the series that something divided the Protoculture galactic government and that the Zentradi actually fought against them. Whilst its true that during the events of the original story (TV '83 & DYRL?) the Zentradi were not supposed to mess with protoculture. Bodol-za actually believed that was because there was no more Protoculture anything to be messed with. It wasn't until they chased down the Macross to Earth and the fact that it had been repaired by humans that there was any cause for actual concern. This is clear. That schism didn't just affect the Protoculure government. It actually affected the Zentradi as well whom took sides. Whats implied is that they were split in their loyalties, some with a faction of Protoculture became the supervision army and some remained as they were. What isn't clear is that the what inspired the faction of the supervision army. I suspect this is because Protodevlins possessed certain individuals within the Protocultural politics and created that schism. The protoculture was directly responsible for hardnessing a new type of energy that created a rift and allowed Protodevlins into this space time. One that could not accommodate them except through spiritia farming/dreaming. One side or the other discovered animas spiritia had an overwhelming impact on them and they were imprisoned in crustal cages and buried on Varuta but not before almost creating a spiritia black hole. This makes me think that over 100's of thousands of years the Zentradi, with no culture of their own, just did what soldiers do. They stick to the point of what they are doing and don't get bogged down in the details. However, they had the presence of mind to have functionaries that were archivists. Even they seemed unclear about what had actually gone on in their history and subsequently ended up losing a lot of that lore. Lap Lamiz does indeed often make derrogatory remarks about the Zentradi males. Especially Kamujin whom, although not being overly fond of culture, found him too easy to manipulate. She was also very suspicious of Britai's re-appointment and didn't seem to understand that Bodol-za pulled his fleet out of Earth space because he feared they were contaminated by suspected Protoculture. So no, the Zentradi are not at all ok with Protoculture. No concept of freedom, they STILL didn't seem to like the idea that they were merely tools. Although, that is true, its not as if the Protoculture were tyranical in any way. Something must have incited them to believe it was not in their best interest otherwise the schism wars would never have ensued. I said existentialism fundamentalists. This is because such a highly evolved race, that evolved so fast (seemingly in a matter of 4000yrs and for a period of near 500,000yrs, would definitely be more absorbed with individual existence and their place in a greater scheme than anything else and most likely why they would be vulnerable to any kind of pure facism which I feel is what likely is being implied along with possession of key persons within the protocultural political makeup and eventually resulted in the schism wars.

It was an attempt to circumvent a license that was in far too many hands and at best you can consider it a spin off story with Marducks and Zentradi controlling singsters that somehow mean the Zentradi are immune to any other form of culture shock. Despite the fact that Macross newbs get all weird about it having supposedly no input from Studio Nue (I don't believe thats the case regardless of whom is the main rights holder) it still somehow magically has Haruhiko Mikimoto at the helm of character design so there goes that theory out the window. No, the real problem was that it totally evades the entire story, set to evolve from where the original TV series left off and the middling differences (on point in every relevant detail) set out by the briefer version of DYRL/FB2012. I say this because even Kawamori-san has said VERY CLEARLY that both the TV series and the first movie are true. The only thing that was different was that the TV series told a version in 36 episodes and DYRL told the same story in 2hrs. Essentially this is the truth. The essential account of first contact and what happens after is the same. It makes no difference to the story at all, that Hikaru is a civilian stunt pilot gatecrashing an airshow that evolves into a autoprovoked attack by a booby trapped alien vessel repaired by humans. That further evolves into flying a ramjet in outerspace and space folded tuna... The Movie DYRL made it all so much more believable that both Hikaru and Min Mei were already in their respective roles and still ended up in a desperate period of survival in the bowels of the SDF-1 (sans space tuna!) as the real romance begins when they are trapped in the SDF-1's super structure. See that was the point. Just like it made no difference that face to face contact with Zentradi occurred in an operation to capture a recon flight, led by Misa and Vermillion squad. It made much more sense to push the story along with Min Mei being captured along with Kai Fun, Roy and the rest, whom would most likely have given the Zentradi first hand experience with culture shock and its impact. In short, DYRL was a more mature telling of a great love triangle against the backdrop of a the human fight for survival and an inter galactic war and then was followed by Flashback 2012 which is really about who and what is going to exist on Megaroad 1. Macross II ignores all of this. Big West got what the fans wanted completely wrong. We wanted to know what happens next with the main characters and Megaroad 1 and instead we got 80+ yrs into an absurd future. Macross plus put the series mostly back on track (at least taking cues from the original TV series) but M7 really gave us what we wanted. I really hope we get to see what happens with Hikaru, Misa and Min Mei instead of just hearing tidbits in other series. We saw what Max and Millia went through to a point but even they had 7 daughters of which we have only seen 3. All remnant Zentradi fleets whether they are Meltran or Zentran have been declared Rogue, what forced that decision? Macross II is a good show to watch, but its too far afield of Macross continuity to be anything more than a spin off. Some good sequences but otherwise little to actually do with Macross any more so than Macross plus was. which many believe was really just there to explain where the main Valkyrie types in M7 came from. Just as Macross Zero kinda introduces us to Macross as a prequel and the Vajra which is what Macross frontier is all about and chronologically successive to M7. Its really kinda time we got back to Megaroad 1 and what happens there. Something important is happening behind everything we are seeing and I bet its all about Megaroad 1 and their return (if indeed they return).

Everyone! ~ in our dimension, anyway. Selectively able to defeat them? Nothing in this dimension, selectively, naturally; and only through science and being aware of them in the first place. Not that it matters anymore because they have discovered animas spiritia ~ or spiritual energy without limit ~ and how to generate it. The last time the Protodevlin encountered it, it was a select minority of Protoculture purists. The rest of Protoculture was conducting a galactic civil war, largely because the protodevlin were stuck with normal spiritia and no way to revitalize the energy once they fed on it, thus killing their food source and risking the production of a spiritia black hole... which kinda almost happened 487,000yrs later anyway.

You mean Matsuda Seiko or the watch company?

Its still 4:3.. no offence to anyones preferences but I really don't see the point of HD in 4:3. I have the Madman DVD box set for Macross and its pretty damn good. I play it on my PC through MPC-64 and get an amazing picture out of them with no trouble at all. The thing about 4:3 is that its already optimized to the max. I think that considering its being released in HD at those prices? The least they could do is cut from the original print because 4:3 is not the way these old shows were shot. They were shot, edited and tracked in a much larger format. Truth is during optimization for old 4:3 screens they actually would have chopped the TV edit from the source. They could very easily use that same asset and give us 16:9 in high res and STILL have plenty of screen cut. Is it really worth the price? I guess there is a lot of content.. but $50 a disc for a standard 4:3 upscale you can do yourself is a bit steep.

Big fan of Misa, so this is great!

Hello everyone! Hope I got this in the right forum... Thanks to the final episode of Macross 7: Encore OAV ~ ep. "Flotilla of Superwomen" featuring the run in between the Macross 7 Colony and a rogue Meltran fleet whom commander Chlore is rival to Millia (an awesome end to M7 that SHOULD have been part of the mainline TV series! IMO)... We all know that apart from the original TV series, every other Macross story has taken root from the first movie Do you remember Love? and whilst adding in the entire story elements from the main TV series in the summer of '83. What has been confusing is the exact relationship between Meltran and Zentran elements of the Zentradi armada; due mostly to the fact that in the movie, Bodol-za is opposed, not only by UN of Earth but also by the Meltrandi. Well I think I can put this whole Zentradi thing into proper perspective now. Even in the TV series, Britai states that the Zentradi female and males don't interact and in fact often fight. Bodol-za basically implies that this too is a form of defense from the effects of Protoculture that he orchestrated and Exedol says pretty much the same thing in DYRL to Britai. Taking note of the fact that Kawamori-san said that the differences in the story between the TV series of Macross ('83) and the Movie were just superficial and based on a time constraint. That the essential story is the same (which is true, they only really cut a lot of visual elements and time from the TV series but basically retold all the fundamental points with all critical characters and VA reprising roles). Overall, the Zentradi are one fighting armada hell bent on chasing down and eliminating both Protoculture and Protodevlin and any offshoots. In the TV series they go on about the supervision army, and it then becomes obvious by M7 that the supervision army is an offshoot of Protodevlin's which was only stopped by a remnant element of Protoculture purists (most of the rest of Protoculture wiped themselves and were wiped out) called Animas Spiritia (Pure essential life force, think of them as existentialism fundamentalists). There is mention from Exedol the archivist, that although the Zentradi were created to fight for the Protoculture by proxy. Fundamentalists had basically informed them of this and it created a schism of some kind. Probably and very humanly, due to the fact that during a period over 500,000yrs ago. Protodevlins had assumed control of high ranking members of the the Protoculture which by this time spanned the entire Milky way as a Galactic government. These members managed to incite elements of the Zentradi and Protoculture into what became the Supervision Army (think of them like the 'enlightened ones'). Actually, it was the Protodevlins first army. I think the reason why Bodol-za decided to immortalise the animosity between the Zentradi and the Supervision army was most likely because, upon discovering that they were merely constructs for war for the Protoculture, the reason why it was made clear to the Zentradi wasn't for any pure reasons but because Protodevlins had purposefully thrown the galaxy into disarray in order to weaken the entire framework built by the Protoculture so that Protodevlins could harvest spiritia largely uncontested. I think that the sheer weight forced Bodol-za to decide that Protoculture were immoral (based purely on the fact that highly evolved society decided to engage in civil war) and Protodevlin were pure evil in our dimension. Both in his eyes had to go. I would say the back drop to this was most likely, already, full scale galactic civil war between fascist Protoculturists and Supervisionists, with purist Protoculturist and emancipated Zentradi stuck between them; all orchestrated by Protodevlins. Part of this of course would be fear of Meltran and Zentran cohabitation and so Bodol-za kept up the animosity of between male and female Zentradi that would only ever work together if the entire Zentradi were threatened in any way. Chlore knew about Britia and called him the "Traitor/Back stabber" which is the name he got after opposing Bodol-za. Whilst Chlore is speaking with Advisor Tranq'el. she queries the advisor about Millia's existence with males (even as a miclone), whom replies that there has never been a precedent for this as far as she knows (basically implies that what Max managed was a pretty big deal). Funnily enough Ambassador Tranq'el also talks about Exedols archives completely oblivious to the fact that he is on Battle 7 and was with Britai during the Zentradi campaign against Earth (which was through to include ALL elements of the Zentradi fleet but it seems that between the sexes there is a certain amount of autonomy). Both also seem to be accustomed to miclones which seem to be regarded as second rate life forms by the Meltran (at least) and Chlore will not negotiate with them directly, no matter what. Bodol-za purposefully kept information from the Meltran in order to keep them suspicious and so that they would have to fight for that information. The only way they were allowed to be gain what one side or the other didn't know is through struggle, this is even within their own gender. This went for Zentran as well. Thus when humans from the Macross were captured in DYRL the Meltran were forced to infiltrate the Zentran vessel in order to gain knowledge that Bodol-za wasn't prepared to share just yet but in the TV series, we see Lap Lamiz was mysteriously brought in to take over from Britai when he was removed from the human sector due to suspected Protoculture contamination. In this way, the Zentradi are a pure warrior race that are never able to become intimate with one another on any level. Even that of something as simple as misreading the facial expressions of a woman whom is being hurt, other men simply will not react in fact they are more likely to support their male comrade. She won't evoke anything in him other than rage. So after all this, I guess that what I am trying to say is that the Meltran and Zentran are, unless very specific circumstances, also most likely prone to war with one another as much as they are likely to only support one another when their race is threatened with extinction in some form. Even in the TV series the Meltran had obvious contempt for the Zentran and Lap Lamiz only worked with Bodol-za because it was mutually beneficial. Otherwise the Meltran are all about intelligence and hit'n'run tactics, resource management rather than full scale brute force. Queadruun'Lau armour rather than battle pods, etc..and despite what is said elsewhere, both in the TV series and in the movie DYRL the Meltran have the more technologically proficient and sleeker vessles. Everything about them is multi-functional, multi-purpose and resourceful. Yes, its all very archetypical but makes sense to not overthink it where the Zentradi are concerned and given what Bodol-za has orchestrated out of fear. Given what the Protodevlin represent.. what Basara actually managed to do is pretty damn huge. It also makes me suspicious that the Protoculture expeditionary team that seeded Earth most likely were of the minority Animas Spiritia or Purist Protoculturists. Does this make sense to anyone?