Seto Kaiba

1 minute ago, Nied said:

Except the press release says HG retains the rights to use those names or designs.

In the Robotech television series (the so-called "original 85") and in merchandise.

Or, put simply, Harmony Gold still has the license to distribute the original SDF Macross series animation and make merchandise based on it.

Just now, Nied said:

You literally listed at least two derivative works.

No, I did not.

As indicated previously, Harmony Gold has been very clear that the proposed Robotech live action movie is not an adaptation of the TV series.  They have indicated it is planned to be a reimagining with a new original story, new original designs, and so on.  Nothing in it is going to be derivative of the Japanese animation used in the Robotech TV series, per HG.  It isn't, therefore, a derivative work of SDF Macross.

The same is effectively true for the Robotech animated sequels.  They can't, and therefore don't, use Macross designs in the new animation produced for them.  They use legally-distinct replacement designs for the few returning characters, and generally refer to past events from the Macross Saga in generic terms or not at all.  (e.g. why Maia Sterling is "half-alien" not "half-Zentradi")  They are legally derivative works based on Southern Cross and MOSPEADA given their usage (with permission) of IP from those shows, but not of Macross because the projects don't use the Macross IP or base anything on it.  (Comic books, video games, etc. are legally merchandise, rather than derivative works, so it's fair game there.)

1 minute ago, Zinjo said:

Actually the works are derivatives of SDFM which HG can do as per their agreement with Tatsunoko who technically owns SDFM outside of Japan. 

No post SDFM properties can be used such as M+, M0, MF, etc...

That's not correct either... for the reasons stated above.

22 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Does this mean HG could license someone to make a shot-by-shot conversion or adaptation of SDFM into live-action using the original designs either exactly or "tweaked" for aesthetics?  I mean, if the SDFM series was converted into a bad comic book back in '85....couldn't that also be done using any other medium...including a live-action TV series or film?  Weren't there also books?  If I recall correctly, they went "deeper" into the story, tech, etc. and introduced things that were not really detailed in the Robotech TV series.

So, the answer here is all down to what's legally considered to be a derivative work vs. what's legally considered to be merchandise.

Because Super Dimension Fortress Macross is a TV series - a motion picture - creating another motion picture work like a TV series or movie based on it or its IP would be derivative work and therefore prohibited.

By the same token, narrative media in a non-motion picture format like a novelization, comic book, or video game would be considered merchandise and therefore A-OK because HG has the merchandising rights under license.

This distinction between what's derivative work vs. what's merchandise is the reason Harmony Gold can use the merchandising rights it licensed to adapt SDF Macross or its Robotech "Macross Saga" into comics, novels, etc. but had to redesign all of the Macross Saga characters for Robotech II: the Sentinels and Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles to avoid a copyright infringement suit for unauthorized use of those designs.

17 minutes ago, Nied said:

I don't see how that reading is supported by what we've seen so far. Especially since all the press releases talk about one derivative work quite explicitly.

What are you talking about?  The official statement doesn't mention derivative works at all.

It lays out only the following points:

1. The agreement was signed 1 March 2021.
2. Harmony Gold has agreed to get out of the way of Macross distribution worldwide.
3. Big West will not stand in the way of distribution of a Robotech live action movie in Japan if one is made.
4. Harmony Gold's license agreement with Tatsunoko Production, under which they hold the "rest of world" distribution and merchandising rights to SDF Macross excl. Japan is recognized as valid by all parties.
5. Going forward, Big West and Harmony Gold will collaborate on distribution of future Macross and Robotech works.

Harmony Gold has NEVER had the ability to make derivative works based on Super Dimension Fortress Macross's IP... because Tatsunoko doesn't have that ability, and all of Harmony Gold's rights were obtained from its licensing agreement with Tatsunoko Production.  That's why Rick Hunter et. al. were redesigned for Sentinels, and again for Shadow Chronicles, and why pretty much all their sequel efforts are MOSPEADA-based.  Even HG itself has been pretty clear on this.

The Robotech live action movie is not a derivative work WRT Super Dimension Fortress Macross.  It has always, from the moment it was announced back in 2007, been explicitly indicated to be a reimagining of the Robotech story that has no connection to the Robotech TV series.

14 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

When HG acquired the rights for SDFM, SC, and Mospeada.....the IP holders did not have any problems about how their IP was to be released by HG?

I guess what I would like to know is if BW was expecting to see Macross released in the US as basically Macross in English?  With that said, if that is the case....why couldn't HG just break up Robotech and reboot it as three separate series under some "Robotech" Anthology if they are still hung up on keeping the Robotech name "alive" and release the three separate shows as individual stories within a Robotech Anthology.  It basically would be HG finally doing the right thing. 

I don't think Big West had any expectations on that front.

Y'see, Big West gave the international distribution and merchandising rights for the original Macross TV series to Tatsunoko Production as compensation for the assistance Tatsunoko provided in funding production of the series.  Tatsunoko then turned around and licensed those rights it'd obtained from Big West to Harmony Gold USA in '84.  They didn't need to involve Big West in any way, because those rights belonged to Tatsunoko.

Tatsunoko Production itself was likely originally operating under the assumption that Harmony Gold's plan was to dub the series into English under its original title.  That was, after all, Harmony Gold's actual plan initially.  They were a couple episodes into production of the dub when Revell forced a course change that led to Robotech as we know it.

In theory, there would be nothing stopping Harmony Gold from breaking Robotech up and making it an artifact title for an anthology-type presentation... except the Robotech fanbase itself and the misguided hagiography whenever Carl Macek's name comes up.

14 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Of course, it would relegate Macek's Robotech into a Disney-like Star Wars EU "Legends" product....I personally would have no problem with that.

They've already done it to 90% of Robotech's material.  What's 10% between friends?

2 minutes ago, Nied said:

HG's claim has been that they have the international rights to Macross and it's derivatives and that as a consequence of that they have the right to make their own derivatives, BW obviously disputed that and it's the source of this whole 20 year saga.

Harmony Gold's claim was only half of that... they mistakenly (or so they said after the fact) claimed that their license agreement with Tatsunoko granted them exclusive control of all things Macross outside of Japan.  They walked that one back fairly quickly after Tatsunoko got wind of it and corrected them.  That's what led to them going after the trademarks on the Macross name, logos, and key art as a way to support their effort to prevent their relaunch of Robotech from having to compete against Macross.

That unfounded claim prompted a copyright review - not a dispute - between Big West and Tatsunoko in Japan's courts to make sure that everyone was clear on who owned what and why under the original contract between Big West and Tatsunoko from 1982.

One of the major problems with talking about this is that so many people oversimplify things and give folks entirely the wrong idea about what happened.

The only parties that have ever genuinely disputed the validity of Harmony Gold's license to the original show have been the folks Harmony Gold has sued for infringement like FASA, Catalyst Game Labs, etc.

2 minutes ago, Nied said:

This new agreement gives HG the right to make derivative works based on SDFM

No, it really doesn't.

The statement just says that the existing status quo that was already in place from the very beginning is still in place and that Harmony Gold's existing license is unaffected by this new distribution agreement.

Harmony Gold still can't produce derivative works based on Super Dimension Fortress Macross.  They can distribute the original animation, edit it for content, and make merch based on it to their heart's content but that's all.

22 minutes ago, Nied said:

I mean, it's rare for projects like these to be self funded anyway and you sure as crap aren't going to get investors to fork over the dough for production work if a whole third of your IP is in dispute. That's why they had to jump through weird funding hoops like the Academy kickstarter.

The IP wasn't in dispute.  Their IP problem was that Macross, the most popular third of Robotech, was unavailable for use in sequel development because its IP was owned by Big West not Tatsunoko and Tatsunoko therefore couldn't authorize them to use it the way they could stuff from Southern Cross or MOSPEADA.  Not that being unable to base sequels on your franchise's most popular installment is any less discouraging to investors.

But the biggest part of why they had to self-fund was that the Robotech franchise's track record was abysmal.  Every attempt to develop a sequel failed, and several cost the investors significant sums in the process.  

The current situation doesn't really do anything to change Robotech's ugly history of failure... so I wouldn't count on them finding money to make anything new for it.

7 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Nah...business is business as this brave new deal has shown us....let the past go....kill it if you have to? 

Business is business... but copyright infringement is copyright infringement, and all parties involved are pretty aggressive about protecting their rights.  It's a just possibility, for now.

3 hours ago, jenius said:

So as the one license holder who poked BigWest with a stick, do we think CW will now stop doing VF-1 models?

Only if Big West pressures Harmony Gold into revoking his license.

Otherwise, I suspect they'll run out a few more for Harmony Gold under that license before running out of material.

1 minute ago, Nied said:

They've obviously got a passionate (if maybe not talented) creative team over there so I wouldn't be surprised if HG decides to do something with the property.

What they don't have is money.

After Shadow Chronicles flopped, Harmony Gold's senior management cut off funding for future Robotech animation development.  Tommy Yune had promised them that his Shadow Chronicles OVA was going to be a huge hit that would make Robotech relevant or even mainstream in the anime industry, that it would bring in new fans in droves, and that it would attract investors who would finance all episodes after the first one.  That, obviously, did not happen.  Harmony Gold's management stuck to the terms they'd set and refused to fund any further development, leading to Shadow Chronicles episodes 2-4 being cancelled, and the only subsequent works being a dub of existing material and a Kickstarter campaign to fund development of a new series pilot.

Now that Harmony Gold can make money on animation distribution without having to actually spend their own money to develop new material... you bet your backside they'll drop the non-performing Robotech property in a heartbeat.

49 minutes ago, easnoddy said:

Seriously, why is Robotech even part of this discussion?   Its a DEAD franchise which by-and-large makes crappy merchandise.

Mainly because the official statement mentions it, both in the context of Robotech allegedly having a future and apparently Big West having a say in said future.

And, of course, there are folks wondering about the implications... even though the most realistic and likely outcome is, as we've said, Harmony Gold dropping Robotech like a roadkill raccoon to focus on Macross distribution.

49 minutes ago, easnoddy said:

HG would have done good to basically tombstone Robotech and just do the work to license/distribute Macross and Mospeada internationally.  That way they get access to Bandai and Arcadia toys and those companies just have to put the little HG sticker on the boxes and pay the licensing and get open access to the international (and American) markets.

Except for the MOSPEADA part, that's almost certainly the direction they're headed... and entirely voluntarily at that.

49 minutes ago, easnoddy said:

HG should absolutely look to reboot Mospeada with the new designs like was done with SB Yamato.  Thats a potential money-maker right there.

Not Harmony Gold.  They don't have the money, the talent pool, or the industry clout to pull that off... and they can't do it anyway because the IP is owned by Tatsunoko Production.

Tatsunoko Production might take an interest if their Genesis Breaker project is well-received.  Mind you, after seeing the quality (or lack thereof) in Tatsunoko's last attempt at mecha anime I would be VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY afraid for MOSPEADA if they announced they were going to reboot it.  I have neither forgiven nor forgotten the landfill-on-fire that was The Price of Smiles. 

6 minutes ago, Zinjo said:

From the comments I've seen it sounds like a 21st Century version of M7.  Heavy emphasis on the music, less on the story and action.  Unfortunate....

That's a fair summation of Macross Delta in general, IMO... in both the positive and negative senses.

Questionable pacing, a story that's less serious and kind of threadbare-feeling, repetitive action, but a soundtrack full of absolute bangers.

6 minutes ago, Invid99 said:

If Sony is still moving forward with the live-action adaptation, maybe it will be new reimagining of the whole R' and Macross with a new title? 

Except for the "new title" part, that's what it was supposed to be from the outset... a complete departure from any previously existing material.  An all-new story with all-new characters and designs, etc. etc.  Essentially a completely separate story with the Robotech name hastily slapped onto it.  Harmony Gold's plan was for that new, all-original Robotech movie to be a replacement for the failed Robotech animated series and be the new face of the franchise.  WB or Sony would do all the work, and Harmony Gold would just sit back and collect the royalties.

2 minutes ago, Bolt said:

For that matter, it would be a completely different story/ movie. And might as well be calling Top Gun3..

Which is, yes, why it hasn't been made.  There's no advantage in it for WB or Sony to develop an original IP all on their own and then hand over royalties from it to some third party for the use of a name that the film is at-best tangentially related to.  They could stick an original name on it and keep all the money for themselves.

17 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

With this new "agreement" and fuzzy good feelings, this movie now seems more possible....more importantly, recent "tweets" suggest that there should be nothing to stop Kawamori's involvement in any "Robotech/Macross" project now [...]

Eh... looking at it from a pure feasibility standpoint, I don't think the prospects of the proposed live action movie are affected by this.

Given Harmony Gold's own comments on the matter, the proposed live action Robotech movie was always tipped to be a complete reimagining.  A clean break from anything that had existed in Robotech up to that point.  That effectively guaranteed that the movie would never be made, because why bother going to all the time and expense of developing an all-new IP on WB's or Sony's dime to unnecessarily fork over partial ownership to a company whose involvement was little more than licensing them the name of an obscure 80's TV cartoon?

If Sony actually decides to pull the trigger, it feels like this opens the door for Sony to drop the obscure Robotech name in favor of the more noteworthy Macross one.

To be honest, I don't expect to see anything new from Robotech going forward.  We know Harmony Gold has been looking for a way out ever since Shadow Chronicles bombed.  It was originally supposed to be the live action movie, where they'd just sit back and collect royalties while someone else did all the actual work.  Now it looks like it's going to be functioning as Big West's distribution partner, sitting back and collecting royalties while Funimation or whoever does all the actual work.

Just now, Bolt said:

Except those crumbs you mentioned.

It's nothing that any other potential Macross distribution partner wouldn't receive... it's not any kind of concession on Big West's part. 

It's just (quite literally) the cost of doing business.

Just now, Bolt said:

And robowreck will continue.

Will it, though?

Harmony Gold quite literally gave up on Robotech's animated series almost fifteen years ago when Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles bombed.  Robotech: Love Live Alive was a glorified DVD extra feature packaged with Shadow Chronicles to inflate sales numbers by getting fans to buy the failed OVA's only episode twice.  Robotech Academy was a Hail Mary attempt to get someone to pay for a pilot because Harmony Gold wouldn't.  The proposed live-action movie has been Coming Never since 2007.  The last original Robotech development was cancelled in 2020, and that was the widely-panned Robotech Remix.  

They have effectively zero incentive to continue Robotech at this point.  By supporting Macross instead, they can make the same (or better) money with less effort and investment on their part.  They'll take the path of least resistance because they know Robotech was, and is, a functionally dead brand.  They might still bluster a bit about Robotech and Carl Macek's alleged vision, but odds are they aren't going to bother attempting to develop Robotech any further.  

While Lower Decks is absolutely the least repugnant of new Trek's offerings by a considerable margin, it's still pretty weak tea.  Not enough to justify shelling out for Paramount+.  I'd consider torrenting it, but it's not even really tempting enough to guarantee I'll do even that much.

Just now, Kelsain said:

Climate change, COVID, a lot of dormant volcanoes suddenly erupting, now this...
I’m beginning to feel concerned.

Well, if any of our friends on the US east coast start talking about some bloke named "Dagon" or vacationing in R'lyeh, you'll know it's time to pack it in and find a new planet. 

2 hours ago, Mommar said:

I disagree, we didn't win.  They're still going to keep getting paid.

Your definition of victory is too narrow, my friend.

Harmony Gold abandoned the field.  They've signed the instrument of surrender.

It just wasn't a completely unconditional surrender.

Instead, true to the company's quasi-Italian roots, once they'd exhausted their bluster and their elaborate aggressive posturing failed to impress... they switched sides.  They decided to knuckle under and learn to love the taste of Big West's boot leather rather than lose the farm on a slow and fundamentally unwinnable battle of attrition.

Yeah, Harmony Gold will collect some small percentage of the take from Macross licensing... but that's all.  Big West gave up NOTHING in this.  NOTHING.  And they got everything they wanted.  Harmony Gold, on the other hand, effectively gave up almost everything it had for a few crumbs from Big West's table.  They withdrew their opposition to Macross's global licensing.  They'd already effectively abandoned Robotech and now apparently are giving Big West partial control over it as well.  The only thing they can cling to is the hope that Sony will green-light a Robotech movie... which, from the outset, was never going to use Big West's IP anyway and is all but guaranteed to be a failure because failing is what American anime adaptations DO.

It's not quite the complete annihilation that folks who utterly loathe Harmony Gold were hoping for, but it's INCREDIBLY close in the final analysis.

Robotech is, for all practical intents and purposes, dead.  Harmony Gold has bent the knee to Macross's owners without any significant concessions from Big West's side.  That's a win by any standard.

2 hours ago, terry the lone wolf said:

I think HG keeping rights to Macross characters is more or less for the live action movie.. It seems more likely we will see Macross designs in that project.. Hopefully they can get Shoji Kawamori attached as an executive producer.. 

No, it's nothing like that.

The statement about Harmony Gold's rights is basically just affirming that Harmony Gold's license agreement with Tatsunoko Production is still valid and in force... the one which only grants Harmony Gold the distribution and merchandising rights to the Super Dimension Fortress Macross animation outside Japan.  They've never been able to use Big West's intellectual property in the proposed live action movie.  (Indeed, they had announced the film with the intention of it being a "reimagining" with all-original design works.)

10 minutes ago, treatment said:

Not sure if it's a demo since I never completed it. 

 

Thought there was also a PS4 game bundled with another release...

Pretty sure its just short... all of those extra games were pretty short.

It'd be nice if they ported them alongside a sub/dub of the movies they originally came with.  That's probably asking a bit much tho.  

13 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

You're in Detroit? For some odd reason, i thought you were in Australia! lol

Not in the city proper, but yeah I'm in the metropolitan area there.

I'm not aware of too many Macross fans out our way, but for some reason the hobby shops always seemed to have a few Macross kits banging around.

There's at least one or two other MWers in my area, I know... mainly because I've bought DX Chogokins from 'em.

30 minutes ago, Shawn said:

Had to run Kawamori's tweet through the google translate...better!

 

And that is awesome he is playing with a DX VF-1J!

 

Considering how much time Macek and co. spend alternately badmouthing him and blocking his work from broader distribution, he must be feeling a real sense of vindication right now.  

1 minute ago, treatment said:

You know, guys?

Didn't DYRL BD contained a really good Macross shooter/adventure game entirely playable on US Playstation4?

I think Frontier BD and another release also had some Macross (PS/3?) games bundled as well...

I know the Frontier movies had games on 'em.

They were those weird "PS3 Combo Pack" editions.

Just now, pengbuzz said:

I never saw it where I am (Northeast US) in any shop (even the ones that imported Anime models). I finally got to work with the Hasegawa ones when a friend of mine here sent me a couple as a gift.

Must be a local thing then.  Here in the greater Detroit area, a lot of the shops near where I lived as a kid stocked Macross models without any indication that it was anything other than perfectly normal.  I'll be headed back that way in a couple days on family business, I'll check and see if the usual suspects still stock 'em.

11 minutes ago, Dangard Ace said:

Seeing how this show is under the Nickelodeon banner I expect plenty of cast being slimed.  

... and all I can think of is "so why aren't they bringing back Neelix, the patron saint of substances of questionable origin"?

"Get that cheese to sickbay!"

8 minutes ago, Einherjar said:

I’m sure Tommy Yune, as the creative director for Robotech for almost 20 years now, will continue to green light more dumb ideas for that franchise even with this announcement.  A major difference now is that he will be more directly competing with the Macross series he has spent his career trying to imitate because the company he works for allows them to be more available to be watched and be compared to his works!

TBH, I really doubt it.

I've spoken one-on-one to every member of the HG Robotech staff over the years, and the only "true believer" among them is McKeever.  I think Tommy and Steve will be thrilled to be off the hook for creating new Robotech IP and able to just do the convention circuit to talk about what exciting new Macross goods are coming out instead.  Harmony Gold is probably thrilled that they can give up on Robotech and just focus on collecting a percentage on Macross.  It's a lot less work for probably about the same money.

1 minute ago, JB0 said:

Ah, she got the Isamu treatment.

It might be fairer to say she got the Kirk treatment.

Isamu Dyson only got set on a gradual course towards a supervisory desk job that took the better part of a decade.

Kathryn Janeway, on the other hand, was booted from the center seat and reassigned to fly a desk at Starfleet Headquarters less than a year after returning to the Alpha Quadrant.  The series finale of Voyager is set at some point after 5 April 2378 since one of the episodes set before it is set on the 315th anniversary of First Contact (5 April 2063).  By Nemesis in 2379, Janeway had been an admiral working a desk job for long enough that Picard is not surprised to receive new orders from her.

(Which actually raises the odd question why this Janeway hologram is a Captain not a Vice Admiral and wearing an outdated uniform for the period?)

Just now, pengbuzz said:

Or perhaps some of Hasegawa;s Macross stuff as well? I'd like o find a TV version Storm Attacker SDF-1.

Not sure if it's just a regional taste in my area or what, but out where I live there have been plenty of retailers carrying Hasegawa Macross kids since I was a kid... I never really thought to question it until nearly a decade later.

Just now, pengbuzz said:

On another note, I'm hoping this means at some point, we could see valks in the US that wouldn't break one's wallet.

It'd be nice.

I suspect our best bet are probably the Bandai plamodels, since various retailers here in the states like GameStop and Barnes & Noble already carry gunpla.

3 minutes ago, 1st Border Red Devil said:

Well, I'm currently watching the Battletech fanboys losing their freaking minds over this, which is hilarious.

That must be quite a show.

3 minutes ago, 1st Border Red Devil said:

and they're still morons that cling to their Mandela Effect stupidity that Battletech isn't the result of actual copyright squatters (in this case, TCI).

It's weird that anyone ever attempted to argue TCI ever had rights to the Macross designs in the first place. 

Twentieth Century Imports (TCI) was a import hobby retailer buying Macross and other anime kits at wholesale in Japan to sell via their catalog service in the states.  It's like arguing that Best Buy owns the rights to the Tachikomas because they sell Ghost in the Shell DVDs.