1st Border Red Devil Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Hi, figured some of y'all might be interested in this press release that was posted on White Wolf's webpage. I had actually planned on going to see this picture in 2 weeks as it looked like a great Vampire/Werewolf flick. Seems the people at Sony might have cribbed a few too many ideas from White Wolf to make this film. It will be interesting to see how this turns out. Hopefully the movie will be able to be released and all parties can walk away with something....would royally suck if Sony yanks it from their roster. Atlanta, GA, 5 September 2003—White Wolf, Inc. and Nancy A. Collins yesterday filed suit in US District court in Atlanta, Georgia against defendants Sony Pictures, Screen Gems and Lakeshore Entertainment, alleging 17 counts of copyright infringement for the film Underworld, set for release on September 19. White Wolf alleges that Underworld characters, theme and setting are based on White Wolf’s award winning games Vampire: The Masquerade® and Werewolf: The Apocalypse™, both set in White Wolf’s fictional World of Darkness®. Further, Collins alleges that Underworld’s script is based on her 1994 story Love of Monsters, published by White Wolf and also set in the World of Darkness.Plaintiffs claim over 60 points of unique similarity between Underworld and their work. "Ours is a huge fictional world, supported by over 200 volumes of fictional material," asserts Mike Tinney, White Wolf’s President. "It’s infuriating to see Underworld’s script riddled with our property." Plaintiffs also claim that Underworld’s entire plot is based on Collins’ short story Love of Monsters. "Apparently they are marketing this as a remake of Romeo and Juliet," comments Collins. "What I think they really mean is that it’s an on-screen adaptation of my story." White Wolf and Collins are seeking immediate injunctive relief and damages. "The volume of confusion in our marketplace is amazing," observes Tinney, "our fans think they’re going to be seeing our film. Of course, if the movie gets released, in a way they will be." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omni Existence Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Hmmmm, sounds interesting! I'm always a sucker for good vampire flicks and books, I even played Vampire: TES and Rage a few years back before I got into toy collecting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JELEINEN Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Go Sony! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the white drew carey Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 It'll be interesting to see how this pans out. Although I'd never read, played, or even heard of these games, someone I was talking to knew of them extensively and said the trailer for Underworld even demonstrates the outright thievery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JsARCLIGHT Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 I have a question here: I was under the impression that "Underworld" was not a Sony product, but one from a Brittish/German/European movie company that licensed the movie to Sony for international distribution? Either way I and the guys at the office are calling it "Interview with the Matrix". If it did in fact swipe it's premise and plot from White Wolf then they sure as hell stole everything else from the Matrix and Blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Border Red Devil Posted September 8, 2003 Author Share Posted September 8, 2003 I know one of the things mentioned is the game for Underworld called Underworld: Bloodlines....to which White Wolf points to Vampire bloodlines....I havent read the complaint docket to see what all White Wolf alleges. It'll be interesting to see how this pans out. Although I'd never read, played, or even heard of these games, someone I was talking to knew of them extensively and said the trailer for Underworld even demonstrates the outright thievery. I was pretty much certain that it was inspired by Vampire and Werewolf when I first saw the trailer months ago. Its not like Sony can claim to have never heard of Vampire: The Masquerade before....what with the old Kindred: The Embraced TV series BASED on V:tM and the Hunter: The Reckoning videogame for XBox (which was a rather good seller IIRC) among other media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsu legato Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Did White Wolf coin the whole "Vampires versus Werewolves" idea? Didn't Anne Rice come up with similar stuff in here fictional world years earlier? And if anybody goes to see this movie, make sure to punch a Goth in the parking lot afterwards. Or for those less violence prone, yell "Get some sun, Ringo!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weaseldancer Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Just from looking at the trailer I thought it had several similiarities to the White Wolf games. Be interesting to see how they court case turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JsARCLIGHT Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 And if anybody goes to see this movie, make sure to punch a Goth in the parking lot afterwards. Or for those less violence prone, yell "Get some sun, Ringo!" No... my name is Azrael Abyss the master of sorrow! wwwoooooooooooooooooooo! Shut up Todd. (SMACK) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Border Red Devil Posted September 8, 2003 Author Share Posted September 8, 2003 Didn't Anne Rice come up with similar stuff in here fictional world years earlier? To the best of my knowledge....no. And if anybody goes to see this movie, make sure to punch a Goth in the parking lot afterwards. Or for those less violence prone, yell "Get some sun, Ringo!" Likely wont see any Goths unless I go to Ybor City....it'll likely be alot of the local White Wolf gamers that I see...especially the Vampire and Werewolf LARPers..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JELEINEN Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 I seriously doubt the suit has anything to do with any resemblance between Underworld and White Wolf's World of Darkness, which WW has acknowledged to be a big amalgamation of folklore, popular literature, and films. If that's the basis of the suit, WW doesn't have a leg to stand on. I think the key here is how closely the film resembles the Collins story mentioned in the press release. For Vampires vs. Werewolves, just go back sixty or seventy years for the Bela Lugosi and Lon Chaney movie on the same subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali Sama Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 thisis jsut a lame attempt at publicity. any vampirte story will haev similar elements. it;s in the lore and well established. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 It's hard to say where I'd stand on this situation without having read the work in question. I do really want to see this move, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolly Rogers Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 In a related story, Bandai has served White Wolf with a lawsuit alleging copyright infringement and violation of trademark laws for their use of White Wolf®, a name Bandai has registered over 20 years ago as a nickname for a character from its popular Gundam franchise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isamu Atreides 86 Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 when i first heard of it, i thought it was a White Wolf movie. it seemed awfully similar to the games i was familiar with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 i was interested to see this move only because of the vampire/wherewolf thing.(i like that sort of crap) the thing that makes me not want to see it is all the matrix type jumps and stuff.(not really a fan of the matrix ever since i saw reloaded) but the one thing that keeps me wanting to see this flick is Kate Beckinsale in tight leather pants....(boy would i love to slap that ass)..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerwalk25 Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 "Apparently they are marketing this as a remake of Romeo and Juliet," I knew since the first time I saw the trailer back in April it was a Shakesperean Vampies vs. Werewolves (i.e Lycans) flick and White Wolf was far from my mind and I had friends who plays the WW RPG's (don't know which) . Now this lawsuit and all? WTF, why don't White Wolf sue the estate of William Shakespere. It's just a loose adaptation of the original work. ~G25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrie Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 (edited) Dude! Don't just hot-link PA's image like that! Edit: Looks like a mod deleted the post. Thanks, whoever that was Edited September 9, 2003 by Valkyrie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGuy42 Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 thisis jsut a lame attempt at publicity. any vampirte story will haev similar elements. it;s in the lore and well established. Actually, no.. Take a trip over the www.penny-arcade.com and sneak a peek at the lawsuit. It's not just general vampiric lore... and, I'm FAR from goth, yet I like V:tM and the derivates. I've been running the same character since about 1997.... =D Hey 1st Boarder, you'll get a kick at some of the points. Personally, I hope Sony gets burned for this one... I'm gettin' sick of Hollywood's rehashes.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 It'd be nice for once to see one of these companies finally get their asses successfully sued for copyright infringement. So much theft of geniunely innovative ideas in literature and film are raped by the big corporate entities always looking to fill their market with the next best thing. It seems the new rule of creating product in the entertainment industry is to take any creative idea from any source you can and repackage it as your own with a marketable sticker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Jenius Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Screw White Wolf... I read through the pdf on penny arcade and most of it was nonsense. "We make vampires fast and strong, they make vampires fast and strong." "We make werewolves big, they make werewolves big." "We have a strong female lead that is a vampire, they have a strong female lead that is a vampire." Oh... and my favorite: "We call OLD vampires Elders, they call OLD vampires Elders." They should make it illegal to sue people. Our country is ridiculous, Japan too by association. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGuy42 Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 (edited) Abominations...? It's not that there's one or two similarities. It's the sum of the whole. ...and that's quite an oversimplification of a LOT of the claims... Oh yea, let's not forget the similarity between Underworld the the story written by Nancy Collins. Granted, it sucked, but well, it's still HER material. Edited September 9, 2003 by GreenGuy42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Border Red Devil Posted September 9, 2003 Author Share Posted September 9, 2003 (edited) "We make vampires fast and strong, they make vampires fast and strong.""We make werewolves big, they make werewolves big." "We have a strong female lead that is a vampire, they have a strong female lead that is a vampire." Oh... and my favorite: "We call OLD vampires Elders, they call OLD vampires Elders." At the Vampire MB, one of the guys on there is a lawyer and said that the reason for this kind of stuff is that you literally have to throw everything but the kitchen sink at your opponent to see what sticks since a judge can decide what parts are and arent frivolous. GreenGuy, thanks for the link. Ive got a hunch that Sony might try and deal out of court with White Wolf to keep Underworld on its release schedule. I want to see this movie....but damn...after reading the brief....the writers are either completely oblivious or are incredibly unlucky. Abominations.....cripes! Edited September 9, 2003 by 1st Border Red Devil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JELEINEN Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 I've heard it speculated that the reason WW waited until now to bring up this suit so that an injunction to stop the release of the film will get shot down right away. They have to file for the injunction as a matter of form (not doing so would weaken their case). The problem is that if they got an injunction to go through, then Sony loses money from the delayed release. If Sony loses money, Sony counter sues WW. If Sony counter sues WW, WW is SOL. Personally, I hope WW gets their asses handed to them. I've read the file and most of it is grasping at straws. It won't take Sony's lawyers more than a few weeks to hunt down the pop. lit. and film sources WW cribbed their setting from. Plus, Sony produces far more entertainment that I enjoy than WW's craptastic games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowlightman Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Personally, I hope WW gets their asses handed to them. I've read the file and most of it is grasping at straws. It won't take Sony's lawyers more than a few weeks to hunt down the pop. lit. and film sources WW cribbed their setting from. Plus, Sony produces far more entertainment that I enjoy than WW's craptastic games. And thus the poor abused Goth kids of the world will have to find their daily amount of "angst" somewhere else. What, no more LARPing!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXO Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Are you guys all mad!?! The vampires are really in a war against the werewolves!!! I'm with MR. Ali Sama. WW: How the hell are we going to tie in with this new movie? I know, let's sue them!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Focker Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 I read over the first 30 pages of that claim. Too tired to read the rest right now. I notice they demand a jury trial. I doubt they would win with a judge. A lot of points seem similar and a jury would likely believe them. The problem is the ideas are hardly original to begin with. All vampires stories have the same gothic crap. WW and Sony's stuff all seem to be basing their stories on stuff anyone can use. We can all write a story about Vampires, werewolves and romeo and Juilet and they will all look very much a like. The modern vampire myth is something I think everyone knows about. If any of us pen a vampire story right now we will istantly start using all the cliches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGuy42 Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Personally, I hope WW gets their asses handed to them. I've read the file and most of it is grasping at straws. It won't take Sony's lawyers more than a few weeks to hunt down the pop. lit. and film sources WW cribbed their setting from. Plus, Sony produces far more entertainment that I enjoy than WW's craptastic games. And thus the poor abused Goth kids of the world will have to find their daily amount of "angst" somewhere else. What, no more LARPing!? Yes, all of us poor, abused Goth kids won't have our daily dose of an escape from reality... -groan- <_< Yea, and everyone who watches anime has an inane obsession with everything Japanese... Oh yea, and every toy collector suffers from a receding hairline and severe weight problem... Did I mention they all lack social skills? Did it ever cross your mind that there are plenty of WW players who don't dress in all black and assume that vampires might (or are) real? Oh, and some of us refrain from LARPing. Personally, taking up the visage of some pen and paper character and acting it out seems rather silly to me. I've personally never had the urge to spend my time cookin' in black clothing in Florida, honestly. I want to see the movie, yes, but I also respect copyrights and originality. It's the same reason why I refrain from buying Robotech merchandise... I agree, MOST of the points are simple vampire/werewolf mythos. The case is built on the SHEER number of coincidences. Who other than WW refers to Lupine/Vamp hybrids as Abominations? Bloodlines? Come on. ...and oh yea, WW did credit many of its inspirations, such as Ann Rice in their books, so claiming WW's guilty of simply ripping off material without any sort of recognition is simply nonsense. If you don't like the game, so be it. On publicity... White Wolf publishes the second most popular table-top RPG (behind AD&D, obviously...) A new Vampire games based off the HL II engine is comin' out.... Their Exalted line has pulled in more fans, and book for book, is almost outselling its Vampire counterpart. Oh yea, a game's comin' out for that universe too, bein' put out by a fairly well known (and respected) game company. Aw dag. Making money (or exposure...) doesn't seem to be much of a problem for them, methinks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowlightman Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Yes, all of us poor, abused Goth kids won't have our daily dose of an escape from reality... -groan- Yea, and everyone who watches anime has an inane obsession with everything Japanese... Oh yea, and every toy collector suffers from a receding hairline and severe weight problem... Did I mention they all lack social skills? Did it ever cross your mind that there are plenty of WW players who don't dress in all black and assume that vampires might (or are) real? Oh, and some of us refrain from LARPing. Personally, taking up the visage of some pen and paper character and acting it out seems rather silly to me. I've personally never had the urge to spend my time cookin' in black clothing in Florida, honestly. Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough, but I definately meant that comment as a joke. I spent a lot of time in RPG fandom, I know that not everybody is an overweight nerd with social problems, I know that stereotypes aren't true. But.. it was a joke, so don't take it to seriously. I could have mentioned that whole murder case thing, but I didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Border Red Devil Posted September 9, 2003 Author Share Posted September 9, 2003 If Sony loses money, Sony counter sues WW. If Sony counter sues WW, WW is SOL. Thats why I think that this is more than a frivolous case. White Wolf may be the shark in the RPG pond....but its a guppy in the greater business ocean. For them to do this means that there could very well be more to this than we've seen. White Wolf, generally speaking, isnt made up of terminally stupid people. Either that or their lawyers are arseholes for leading them down this path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doktor Gonzo Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Of course, we all know what happens next: JMS, author of the Real Ghostbusters episode "No One Comes To Lupusville", sues EVERYBODY for infringement! We Got'cher Stinkin' Lycans Right Here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Payne Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Hi, figured some of y'all might be interested in this press release that was posted on White Wolf's webpage. I had actually planned on going to see this picture in 2 weeks as it looked like a great Vampire/Werewolf flick. Seems the people at Sony might have cribbed a few too many ideas from White Wolf to make this film. It will be interesting to see how this turns out. Hopefully the movie will be able to be released and all parties can walk away with something....would royally suck if Sony yanks it from their roster. Atlanta, GA, 5 September 2003—White Wolf, Inc. and Nancy A. Collins yesterday filed suit in US District court in Atlanta, Georgia against defendants Sony Pictures, Screen Gems and Lakeshore Entertainment, alleging 17 counts of copyright infringement for the film Underworld, set for release on September 19. White Wolf alleges that Underworld characters, theme and setting are based on White Wolf’s award winning games Vampire: The Masquerade® and Werewolf: The Apocalypse™, both set in White Wolf’s fictional World of Darkness®. Further, Collins alleges that Underworld’s script is based on her 1994 story Love of Monsters, published by White Wolf and also set in the World of Darkness.Plaintiffs claim over 60 points of unique similarity between Underworld and their work. "Ours is a huge fictional world, supported by over 200 volumes of fictional material," asserts Mike Tinney, White Wolf’s President. "It’s infuriating to see Underworld’s script riddled with our property." Plaintiffs also claim that Underworld’s entire plot is based on Collins’ short story Love of Monsters. "Apparently they are marketing this as a remake of Romeo and Juliet," comments Collins. "What I think they really mean is that it’s an on-screen adaptation of my story." White Wolf and Collins are seeking immediate injunctive relief and damages. "The volume of confusion in our marketplace is amazing," observes Tinney, "our fans think they’re going to be seeing our film. Of course, if the movie gets released, in a way they will be." I'd like to see what their full complaint is. I've got a sneaky feeling that the similarities are conceptual ideas on how a vampire/werewolf universe would run (stuff like "embracing," lycanthropy, dark and mysterious twilight world etc.) and not nuts and bolts names, personalities plot beats, etc. If it is, then Universal Pictures should be able to sue White Wolf for infringing on Dracula and The Wolf Man. And you can't copyright theme. That charge is just ridiculous. If ya could, Homer and Shakespeare would be all that'd be on the shelves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JELEINEN Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 The points of similarity again come down to pre-exisiting ideas in folklore and pop culture. White Wolf is trying to claim that their particular combination of ideas is unique and that anyone else using them must be infringing. The problem for WW, is they have to prove that filmmakers were aware of WW's games and the Collins story and that all the elements of commonality couldn't have occured independently. In other words, they haven't a prayer of winning. The best they can hope for is for Sony to not want to bother with the legal procedings and try to settle. I, myself, don't see any copyright infringement. Reading synopses by people who've read the story and seen the film (it premeired in Toronto last night) show that they have very, very little in common. Plus, people coming up with a modern vampire/werewolf mythos that are similar is not that far fetched, especially when they're drawing from the exact same sources. Oh, and in addition to the Real Ghostbusters episode, there was apparently a comic in 2001 AD that also did a vampire vs. werewolf Romeo & Juliet back in the early eighties. Just further proof that Sony's lawyers are going to have a field day with WW's stupidity (well, to be fair, I'm sure it's more WW's lawyers' stupidity). Pat, you can read the legal filing here: http://www.penny-arcade.com/dl/whitewolfcomplaint.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGuy42 Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 (edited) Yes, all of us poor, abused Goth kids won't have our daily dose of an escape from reality... -groan- <_< Yea, and everyone who watches anime has an inane obsession with everything Japanese... Oh yea, and every toy collector suffers from a receding hairline and severe weight problem... Did I mention they all lack social skills? Did it ever cross your mind that there are plenty of WW players who don't dress in all black and assume that vampires might (or are) real? Oh, and some of us refrain from LARPing. Personally, taking up the visage of some pen and paper character and acting it out seems rather silly to me. I've personally never had the urge to spend my time cookin' in black clothing in Florida, honestly. Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough, but I definately meant that comment as a joke. I spent a lot of time in RPG fandom, I know that not everybody is an overweight nerd with social problems, I know that stereotypes aren't true. But.. it was a joke, so don't take it to seriously. I could have mentioned that whole murder case thing, but I didn't. Forgive me, but I hear enough of 'em, and well, hearin' them out of a group of people I respect, and who I would have though were big enough to avoid such presumptions, well it annoyed me.. And, on the murders, yea, blame it on a game line.. While we're at it, let's convict the makers og GTA3 'cause some mentally inept kids decided to open up on some drivers on the highway. <_< People need to learn to take responsibility for their actions instead of blaming And on the points, just take a look at the (horribly) written Love of Monsters. (around 100 and on...) I'd say those stores seem quite similar. ...and I don't seem to remember much Vampire lore that deals with "bloodlines" or "clans" of vampires... Edited September 9, 2003 by GreenGuy42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Jenius Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Sony should buy the rights to Nosferatu and the old Dracula crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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