jenius Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Ajax in 1/100 scale... Would that be as tiny as I'm thinking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DewPoint Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Based on Tekering"s chart that would be about half the height of a HMR VF-1. Imagine making a transformation guide for that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain america Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 23 minutes ago, jenius said: Ajax in 1/100 scale... Would that be as tiny as I'm thinking? Probably tinier. I can't recall if there were ever some "official" stats published for the Auroran, but just based on the size of the cockpit, it would have to be quite a bit taller than the Spartas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, jenius said: Ajax in 1/100 scale... Would that be as tiny as I'm thinking? About 2 1/2 inches tall in robot mode... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetJockey Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 On 1/16/2019 at 12:22 AM, 505thAirborne said: Probably a lot of Anime magic going on here, but this is how it looks in the series. Yeah as much as I want a hovertank, I wanted it to look like this in hover mode. Not like what they are showing so far. I can only hope this is a prototype and not finished. But why would they show this first? They have to know people will compare it to the show. And also that transforming toys are a lot closer to the shows now compared to back in the 80s. Also, I really don't like this quote on their page: "At this time we are uncertain of the demand for Southern Cross figures. We will be reaching out further to the community to see exactly how much of a demand there is for this piece and other possible pieces in the Southern Cross universe." Shouldn't they know the market before they get into this project? And which community are the talking to? Here and the Robotech.com forum? There are only two posts about this on the Robotech forums. Perhaps there are Facebook groups or other forums. And I could swear I read a quote about a Kickstarter type deal and almost a put up or shut up type line. Maybe that was here or they edited it out. But I'm not putting money up until I see a prototype I'm pleased with. And I'm not pleased with the legs on what they are showing right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenius Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 4 hours ago, JetJockey said: "At this time we are uncertain of the demand for Southern Cross figures. We will be reaching out further to the community to see exactly how much of a demand there is for this piece and other possible pieces in the Southern Cross universe." Shouldn't they know the market before they get into this project? And which community are the talking to? Here and the Robotech.com forum? There are only two posts about this on the Robotech forums. Perhaps there are Facebook groups or other forums. And I could swear I read a quote about a Kickstarter type deal and almost a put up or shut up type line. Maybe that was here or they edited it out. But I'm not putting money up until I see a prototype I'm pleased with. And I'm not pleased with the legs on what they are showing right now. To be fair to them, no one knows the Southern Cross market because the last company that even attempted anything for it was Matchbox... and they made pretty bad toys during the heyday of the franchise so not really apples to apples. No one really will know until people actually put money toward Southern Cross products because chatter on the Internet is meaningless. That's not to absolve them if you think they're doing a poor job drumming up interest or you think they're doing a poor job with their design-work. It will be tough to parse whether there simply isn't enough interest in general or 'there is no interest' due to their doing a poor job in either their marketing or design work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, jenius said: To be fair to them, no one knows the Southern Cross market because the last company that even attempted anything for it was Matchbox... and they made pretty bad toys during the heyday of the franchise so not really apples to apples. No one really will know until people actually put money toward Southern Cross products because chatter on the Internet is meaningless. That's not to absolve them if you think they're doing a poor job drumming up interest or you think they're doing a poor job with their design-work. It will be tough to parse whether there simply isn't enough interest in general or 'there is no interest' due to their doing a poor job in either their marketing or design work. Agreed. With MAAS' history, it'll be a good year or so before a product comes out, so I think a few extra weeks on redesigning the initial concept (and let's remember, right now all they have is some CAD models and renderings generated from them) wouldn't hurt the timeline. If you make a clunky mediocre toy, only hardcore fans will buy it. If you make a sleek, aesthetically pleasing toy with some innovative design and transformation gimmicks, then you can draw in people who wouldn't necessarily be hunting for a SC toy, but might just really like your design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easnoddy Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) Literally EVERY shape is wrong (gun, legs, every polygon in the arms, front of tank too small, lights too far forward, feet/legs WAY too big, proportions are OFF EVERYWHERE). They should build the wire-frame from the anime or line-art, and go from there. Edited January 17, 2019 by easnoddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 20 minutes ago, easnoddy said: They should build the wire-frame from the anime or line-art, and go from there. They'd have to go to the animation, most likely. Southern Cross has a lamentable shortage of line art printed at any size... let alone good, clear front and side views. They could, I suppose, use the old Imai model kit plans for reference at least for Battle Sniper mode. The first iteration was even in the same scale as this intended toy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight26 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 It almost looks like they are building it based on this monstrosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Knight26 said: It almost looks like they are building it based on this monstrosity. That's the thing. When I was a kid, my neighbors had this toy. I remember folding the legs under it to try to simulate the hover tank mode. It looks like they are literally just taking this version, and adding in a couple details, and that's it. The benefits of modern toy engineering over mid 1980s toy engineering... just don't seem to be there in this design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain america Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, easnoddy said: Literally EVERY shape is wrong (gun, legs, every polygon in the arms, front of tank too small, lights too far forward, feet/legs WAY too big, proportions are OFF EVERYWHERE). They should build the wire-frame from the anime or line-art, and go from there. As someone who has direct experience in converting line-art to pragmatic 3D forms, I can tell you just from looking at that still of the Flash Clapper that it relies heavily on Anime magic to look that way. Look at how massive the front fairing and the backpack section below it are relative to the torso. The calves have also been flattened considerably compared to how they look in Battle Sniper mode. There are ways to achieve an aesthetically pleasing compromise, but Maas didn't succeed based on their pre-production images. In their defense, it really is an art that few seem to have mastered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenius Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Shameless plug time, if anyone is looking at this and thinking "I'd be better off just owning the Matchbox or Playmates toy", well, you can! I have one for sale: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Playmates-Matchbox-Exosquad-Robotech-Hover-Tank/233093623250?hash=item3645766dd2:g:xKkAAOSwNepcPDcf:rk:1:pf:1 Still pretty cheap. All proceeds go to fund more purchases for anymoon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronocidal Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 5 hours ago, RavenHawk said: If you make a sleek, aesthetically pleasing toy with some innovative design and transformation gimmicks, then you can draw in people who wouldn't necessarily be hunting for a SC toy, but might just really like your design. I admit, I can't say I'm a fan of the series, and have never seen it, but the very idea of making that pile of transforming boxes "sleek" or "aesthetically pleasing" sounds like a losing battle from the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
505thAirborne Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 2 hours ago, jenius said: Shameless plug time, if anyone is looking at this and thinking "I'd be better off just owning the Matchbox or Playmates toy", well, you can! I have one for sale: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Playmates-Matchbox-Exosquad-Robotech-Hover-Tank/233093623250?hash=item3645766dd2:g:xKkAAOSwNepcPDcf:rk:1:pf:1 Still pretty cheap. All proceeds go to fund more purchases for anymoon! I placed a bid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh9000 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 I would have wanted them in 1/100 scale to scale with other toys. Partsforming instead of perfect transformation at that size would have been ok with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, sh9000 said: I would have wanted them in 1/100 scale to scale with other toys. Partsforming instead of perfect transformation at that size would have been ok with me. Isn't that gonna be like the size of a GI Joe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, sh9000 said: I would have wanted them in 1/100 scale to scale with other toys. Partsforming instead of perfect transformation at that size would have been ok with me. That would probably be prohibitively small... at 1/100 scale it'd be about 2 1/3 inches tall in Battle Sniper mode (61mm if we're scaling from Imai's 1/32 scale plans). About 1.5x as tall as a Lego minifigure or 2/3 the height of a typical GI Joe. (A bit less than half as tall as a HiMetal R destroid.) Edited January 18, 2019 by Seto Kaiba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tekering Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) On 1/16/2019 at 2:45 PM, RavenHawk said: My only real nitpick here is with their statements about how they listen to the fans. In my VERY LIMITED experience with some of the products that MAAS has put out, while they are very active on social media, they also are convinced that they know best. So, they do "listen" to fans who are very vocally praising them, but input which doesn't line up with what they have already decided upon or which is more critical than glowing seems to get ignored. Actually, they've directly responded to my complains on Facebook: Quote There is a lot of issues with the original artwork and trying to make it happen in real life, especially when you are talking a scale such as 1/32 which will still have a ton of limitations. Now if we were talking 1/24 scale or 1/12 scale it would be a completely different story as you have a lot more room to work with. When you are creating an actual working figure you have to take many things into consideration such as plastic thickness, how and were you will have your attachment points, internal joint structures and still keep aesthetic and proportions in tact and still have it be able to transform. We know the VHT-1 that we are proposing is not perfect, it is near impossible to get something perfect in this scale and yet still have it remain functional without removing a bunch of parts for transformation and still keep a high level of articulation as well. And my response: Quote It seems your design team is making the wrong compromises. Your market is adult collectors, who are used to paying premium prices for toys to photograph and display. Appearance has to be your top priority. We know from “Skiff” that you can produce functional figures with high-quality plastic, so our only concern is aesthetic; and what you’ve shown us so far gives us cause for concern. We’ve waited over three decades for a decent Hovertank, but your design is barely an improvement over Matchbox’s effort in the ‘80s. As with their design, yours has failed to capture the basic profile, much less any of the individual elements of the design; there isn’t a single shape in your 3D model that matches the Ammonite animation model sheets. While my perspective is understandably limited, I see no advantages to the changes your design team has made, either from a tooling or transformation perspective. A delicate, fiddly toy requiring partsforming would at least look the part. Your team may produce a robust, functional toy from your existing design, but I fear most fans would not buy it; a design that more accurately captures the line art, however, may appeal to both nostalgic fans and more casual collectors. Don’t rush this into production. Take the time to get it to look right, and then figure out the engineering required to get there. We can only judge the product based on the still images you provide, so they’ve got to match what we know and love from Robotech. That’s your path to success. Overall, the Facebook comments have been much more positive, and not nearly as critical as we've been here... Edited January 18, 2019 by tekering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, tekering said: Actually, they've directly responded to my complains on Facebook: And my response: Overall, the Facebook comments have been much more positive, and not nearly as critical as we've been here... Full Disclaimer: It's been a long day, so I may be reading the Facebook page with a bit of a negative lens. Tekering, your post was polite and gracious, so my respect for that. On to my reaction: My read of their response pretty much lines up with what I said a couple days ago (I think... sorry if I'm misremembering). Their response to you is typical of what I've seen in the past. Most people only praise them on Facebook (and don't get me wrong, I have two of their products and LOVE THEM), but any time someone has pointed something out that isn't right, they just respond saying that they've thought it through already and what they are doing is the right way to go. My criticism isn't that they don't respond to people, it's just that they listen but don't hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain america Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 The other factor to bear in mind is that when you're producing small-run toys like this, you're sorta kinda relying on that factory's technical experience and expertise, or lack thereof to get your project done. My own experiences in dealing with Chinese manufacturers has left me wanting to pull-out my hair because frankly, most of the time they don't listen. Maas also has a limited time window in which to engineer the toy and get it to market because HG's hold on the license expires (I think) some time next year. Regardless of the outcome, I wish them the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
505thAirborne Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 On 1/16/2019 at 12:49 AM, JB0 said: I'd say not enough anime magic going on there, actually. Yeesh. Be really interesting to see how this Kickstarter plays out. Smart of MAAS to not simply trust the people telling them there's a rich and vibrant SDC Southern Cross market just sitting there untapped and waiting for them, though I'm surprised HG isn't forbidding Robotech kickstarters outright. Oh I meant the "magic" being in the Anime not the toy they're working on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 49 minutes ago, 505thAirborne said: Oh I meant the "magic" being in the Anime not the toy they're working on. So did I. That is very much a graduate of the "robot laying on its face" school of transformation. Certainly, the toy could use a little magic too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Border Red Devil Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, captain america said: Maas also has a limited time window in which to engineer the toy and get it to market because HG's hold on the license expires (I think) some time next year. Regardless of the outcome, I wish them the best. I'm not so sure their license is going to go belly up, considering the fact it was disclosed Tatsunoko owes them about $1.4mil. That's a lot of clams to shell out for 3 series, the youngest of which is approaching 35 years. Speaking of which, if MAAS can get this toy to market this year, HG (assuming its Billy West and NOT Tommy Yune) may decide its a great way to celebrate the 35th anniversary of SDC: Southern Cross. SolarFlare Games will hopefully get Crisis Point to market (relatively) soon and Udon Studios may (or may not) complete their artbook for The Masters War. Edited January 18, 2019 by 1st Border Red Devil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 7 hours ago, captain america said: Maas also has a limited time window in which to engineer the toy and get it to market because HG's hold on the license expires (I think) some time next year. Regardless of the outcome, I wish them the best. At time of writing, they have 2 years and 55 days before the term of Harmony Gold USA's license ends and the rights revert back to Tatsunoko Production's control. 2 hours ago, 1st Border Red Devil said: I'm not so sure their license is going to go belly up, considering the fact it was disclosed Tatsunoko owes them about $1.4mil. That's a lot of clams to shell out for 3 series, the youngest of which is approaching 35 years. If it were a simple case of money owed, it would be one thing... but you're missing a LOT of important context that completely turns your premise upside-down. That sum that Tatsunoko "owes" is an arbitration order to pay Harmony Gold's court costs and attorney fees. Tatsunoko is refusing to pay that sum, in order to lure Harmony Gold back to court to overturn the arbitration's findings. Why? Because Tatsunoko hasn't abandoned its contention that Harmony Gold is skimming off the top of royalties owed to them for home video sales, streaming of the animation, and merchandising. They want to overturn that arbitration's findings and secure a judgement against HG for money they contend HG owes them. They aren't exactly on good terms. Then, of course, there was that sidebar argument in the arbitration where Harmony Gold claimed that its use (with permission) of Tatsunoko's IP made it owner of that IP and that they could continue using it after the license expired. Tatsunoko had to deliver a pointed reminder that 1. copyright law doesn't work that way, 2. they don't appreciate Harmony Gold falsely claiming ownership of their property, and 3. Harmony Gold's rights expire 14 March 2021. Mind you, Tatsunoko Production itself is "under new management". When Nippon TV bought a majority stake in them back in '14, they made it clear they want to maintain tighter control over Tatsunoko's catalog. Tatsunoko has also been on much better terms with Big West, and would throw Harmony Gold to the wolves in a heartbeat in exchange for a cut of the Macross sequel profits (a cut they so aredently desire that they went to court twice unsuccessfully trying to get a piece last decade). So, yeah... Tatsunoko owes Harmony Gold some money (for now). But, by the same token, Tatsunoko sincerely believes that HG has been (and still is) systematically stealing royalties owed to them for the Robotech license. They've seen Harmony Gold make false claims of ownership of Tatsunoko's property as part of a legal proceeding. Their new management wants to keep licensees on a short leash and is courting Big West. They took pains to draw a line under the fact that Harmony Gold's license expires 14th March 2021 and that all rights revert back to them at that point. Where renewal of the Robotech is concerned, as a magic 8-ball might say... "Outlook not so good". 2 hours ago, 1st Border Red Devil said: Speaking of which, if MAAS can get this toy to market this year, HG (assuming its Billy West and NOT Tommy Yune) may decide its a great way to celebrate the 35th anniversary of SDC: Southern Cross. SolarFlare Games will hopefully get Crisis Point to market (relatively) soon and Udon Studios may (or may not) complete their artbook for The Masters War. HG generally doesn't even acknowledge the anniversaries of the source material behind Robotech, let alone celebrate them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easnoddy Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 IMO, tank mode is the only Spartas toy we haven't gotten a decent version of, so the tank mode aesthetic should be paramount. I leave MOST of my Macross stuff in fighter mode. Yes, the other modes will suffer a bit. The front of the tank needs to be a parts-former. The anime one is too big, and the robot is too small. I'm fine with a swap there, otherwise it will be scraping the ground...and thats okay. We've got the swappable wings on HMR valkyries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechapilot77 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 11 hours ago, captain america said: The other factor to bear in mind is that when you're producing small-run toys like this, you're sorta kinda relying on that factory's technical experience and expertise, or lack thereof to get your project done. My own experiences in dealing with Chinese manufacturers has left me wanting to pull-out my hair because frankly, most of the time they don't listen. Maas also has a limited time window in which to engineer the toy and get it to market because HG's hold on the license expires (I think) some time next year. Regardless of the outcome, I wish them the best. hmmm... i don't think they are even at the "ready to take to factory" stage yet, and i also seem to detect that many of these small companies "do the design" or hire someone to do it, but skip some of the technical aspects of the design engineering part of it and and expect "the factory" to "figure it out". if each component is fully spec'd the only issue can be noncompliance with spec. anyway, it seems they aren't at that point yet as i don't think they have a good design yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRose Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 That's a big risk they're taking. They're a good indie outfit so I hope it goes well for them. I kinda wonder if they're going to run into trouble since this is new territory. Nobody ever tried to make a full transforming toy of the Spartas before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazinger Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 I wouldn't mind some figures and hoverbikes in scale with whatever they do put out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 On 1/18/2019 at 8:58 AM, Mechapilot77 said: hmmm... i don't think they are even at the "ready to take to factory" stage yet, and i also seem to detect that many of these small companies "do the design" or hire someone to do it, but skip some of the technical aspects of the design engineering part of it and and expect "the factory" to "figure it out". if each component is fully spec'd the only issue can be noncompliance with spec. anyway, it seems they aren't at that point yet as i don't think they have a good design yet. One of their designers (from a different MAAS toyline) said outright in an interview that he designs the look of the toy and how it should transform, and leaves it to the factory to figure out how joints should work, how parts should peg into place, and what tolerances to use. The quality of the figures and transformation completely depends on which factory they go with, and they switch between multiple different factories for different lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 What? But that's completely insane! I mean, if that was all it took to be a toy designer, then I've got some old notebooks from when I was little... BRB, applying to MAAS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, JB0 said: What? But that's completely insane! I mean, if that was all it took to be a toy designer, then I've got some old notebooks from when I was little... BRB, applying to MAAS. The annoying part is that some of these designers (not all, by any means, but some of the ones that I've seen interviews with) take themselves very seriously, and think that they design robots and know how it's REALLY done... but, in reality, they're very talented CAD artists, but don't know any engineering at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Nate V Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 This thing looks absolutely hideous. I'm at least hoping the Matchbox/Playmates one goes down in value on eBay when it comes out, unless they manage to make it worse than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Convectuoso Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Seems like MepToys is also working on SC designs https://www.meptoys.com/wipblog/vf-8-logan?fbclid=IwAR0MXHtYFNOUw9-2aelE6TgAiAbBm4iCAkOrubNauAHUMwh9G1KHlPr-m28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tekering Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Well, he's got guardian mode down... I hope he figures out battloid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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