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Disney used Lucas' treatment for exiled Luke so there's a waterfall of blame if you don't like fallen heroes.

They should make Picard an angry drunk that dreamed up TNG.. like those episodes of DS9.

Edited by jenius

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3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Disney made Skywalker do exactly what the previous generation of Jedi masters did when they screwed up and led the dark side come to power... so it wasn't exactly what you'd call unreasonable or out of character.  (They weren't terribly subtle about it either, bringing Yoda along to chastise him for stealing his bit.)

The entire problem with this is that not only did he apparently not learn anything from an entire generation of utter failure, but it apparently took a decade or more for Yoda's ghost to poof into existence and slap him upside the head.  The time for that was when the mistake was made, not after it had festered into a cancerous growth that obliterated the government in a giant lens flare.

If they wreck Picard the same way, I feel like Patrick Stewart should just outright sue them for libel and slander.  Pissing all over the spotless morality of a character you spent the better part of twenty years building up feels like a direct shot at him personally. 

I know, that's a ridiculous idea, and he's playing a character for a paycheck.  At the same time, an overwhelming amount of his public image is built on that sort of character, and his personal reputation as just an all-around amazing human being.  I know he's got to be getting ready to retire, but I worry that casting that character in that sort of light at this point would just leave a nasty stain.  That'd be a lousy last performance to be remembered for.

I guess there might be the chance that this is about Picard unraveling Section 31, trying to turn it straight?  Or, given the rogues he seems to be slumming it with, I wonder if they're setting this up as a Picard-style "Bourne" series, where he's been orchestrated as the fall-guy for Section 31, and he sets out to expose it.

Edited by Chronocidal

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1 hour ago, Mog said:

As I’ve said numerous times, Luke’s always been the guy to leap up whenever people (especially his friends) are in trouble, consequences be damned. [...]

1 hour ago, Mog said:

Which seems to be exactly what’s happening here, with Picard running Section 31.  It absolutely flies in the face of everything we know about the man.

Young Luke was... there are two key differences between what we saw with Luke Skywalker and what we're allegedly going to see with Jean-Luc Picard: Time and Maturity.

Luke Skywalker c. A New Hope was a painfully naive and sheltered 19 year old kid hopped up on adrenaline and idealism.  He was all of about 22 or 23 when the Empire fell.  He did 30 years of growing up in the real world away from the sheltering influence of his aunt and uncle between Return of the Jedi and The Last Jedi and saw plenty of things to make him cynical and defeatist in that time.  He saw the enemy he and his friends gave so much to defeat come right back like nothing had happened while he was powerless to stop them... and then had years to dwell on having not only directly caused the rise of the dark side he'd thought defeated but having ensured it rose stronger than before.  It's no surprise that the naive young man who believed so firmly in the triumph of light over darkness and a heroic destiny would be so badly broken by seeing everything he'd worked for fall apart in such short order.

Jean-Luc Picard c. The Next Generation "Encounter at Farpoint" was a 59 year old, thoroughly seasoned, Federation Starfleet captain with 31 years of starship command experience and combat service in the Cardassian border wars under his belt.  He was under no illusions about the galaxy's ability to be a random, occasionally cruel, place full of injustices and worse.  By the time of Star Trek: Nemesis he was 74, with 46 years of command to his name and had seen the worst the galaxy had to offer courtesy of the Cardassians, Romulans, Klingons, Borg, Dominion, Son'a, and various corrupt Starfleet officers, and weathered it all without sacrificing his belief in the Federation's values or his explorer's soul.

That's why Luke's characterization in The Last Jedi is NOT a betrayal of the character... but why a Jean-Luc Picard who has left Starfleet to head up Section 31 WOULD be a betrayal of his character.  You want to judge Luke's mature self based on how he behaved when he was a rash youth who'd never truly been tested.  By contrast, Jean-Luc Picard is someone we were introduced to after he had already weathered many tests of strength and character, and weathered many more in the parts of his life we got to see.  

 

1 hour ago, Mog said:

Yes, other Jedi Masters failed royally.  But Yoda and Obi played the long game after their respective failures.  What was Luke’s excuse for hiding away?

"Into exile I must go.  Failed, I have." - Yoda

What long game?  Yoda and Obi-wan f*cked off with no plan beyond saving their own hides and keeping Vader from finding his children.  Obi-wan's ghost had to browbeat Yoda into training Luke.  Pretty much the same thing Luke did, just Luke didn't have to wait as long.

 

1 hour ago, Chronocidal said:

The entire problem with this is that not only did he apparently not learn anything from an entire generation of utter failure, but it apparently took a decade or more for Yoda's ghost to poof into existence and slap him upside the head.  The time for that was when the mistake was made, not after it had festered into a cancerous growth that obliterated the government in a giant lens flare.

So Yoda's consistent.  He spent almost twenty years hiding out on a remote planet until a potential student showed up, and even then he refused to teach him until a ghost showed up to twist his arm.

 

1 hour ago, Chronocidal said:

I guess there might be the chance that this is about Picard unraveling Section 31, trying to turn it straight?  Or, given the rogues he seems to be slumming it with, I wonder if they're setting this up as a Picard-style "Bourne" series, where he's been orchestrated as the fall-guy for Section 31, and he sets out to expose it.

What we've heard is that he's supposed to be the head of Section 31.

Given the rogues he's slumming with, it sounds like he's in the thick of it doing morally questionable sh*t that the Jean-Luc Picard we know would've flipped his sh*t about.

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We could argue about Luke (and Obi and Yoda) til the cows come home.

But I think we can both agree that making Picard the head of Section 31 would be a much bigger and colossal betrayal of a character we’ve observed over the years.

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I think it is actually a clone of Picard. Section 31 thought the romulans had a good idea in that last movie, and stole it for themselves.

Edited by JB0
Typos. All the typos.

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3 hours ago, Mog said:

But I think we can both agree that making Picard the head of Section 31 would be a much bigger and colossal betrayal of a character we’ve observed over the years.

Yeah, it'd be downright criminal considering that Jean-Luc Picard spent seven seasons and four movies as Starfleet's paragon of virtue.  He's the only Starfleet captain thus far who never really compromised himself in any way.

 

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

I think it is actually a clone of Picard. Section 31 thought the romulans had a good idea in that last movie, and stole it for themselves.

Just so long as we don't have to watch Patrick Stewart lose another fistfight to a man in a rainbow pleather onesie again...

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1 hour ago, JB0 said:

I think it is actually a clone of Picard. Section 31 thought the romulans had a good idea in that last movie, and stole it for themselves.

I'm pretty sure Nemesis is the main reason no one's tried any Post-Nemesis movies or TV yet (alternate universe branches notwithstanding).

They managed to lay a steaming pile of thermite in the fans' laps, and any method of disposing of that mess is going to end in flames.

 

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I think Star Trek The Next Generation ended at the TV show for me. I really don't like any of the movies. They just felt like longer and not as good TV episodes. And from what I remember of the last movie, it was really bad.

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On 3/6/2019 at 10:57 PM, technoblue said:

Or starships.

Information theft.

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3 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

I'm pretty sure Nemesis is the main reason no one's tried any Post-Nemesis movies or TV yet (alternate universe branches notwithstanding).

Yeah, its box office take was pretty unremarkable.

 

3 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

They managed to lay a steaming pile of thermite in the fans' laps, and any method of disposing of that mess is going to end in flames.

I dunno, they could always take the same approach that the Star Trek: Enterprise relaunch took to deal with the last few arcs of the series.  "It was a lame cover story for something else" was a great way to take the piss out of it.

 

14 minutes ago, JetJockey said:

I think Star Trek The Next Generation ended at the TV show for me. I really don't like any of the movies. They just felt like longer and not as good TV episodes. And from what I remember of the last movie, it was really bad.

Same.  "All Good Things" was a surprisingly tight series finale that didn't really require following up on.  Generations was a weak film that really didn't deliver on what it promised vis a vis passing the torch from the TOS to TNG crew, and the Enterprise getting Worf'd by a century-old Bird of Prey was downright comical.  First Contact was 50% hilarious classic Trek time travel episode and 50% bad sci-fi zombie flick that ruined the Borg by giving the faceless an easily-related-to face.  Insurrection... exists.  Nemesis was a terrible fanfic that somehow slipped the net, with the evil twins and overpowered fanboyish uber-ship and a lot of really weak gags.

Nothing will ever be quite as incandescently awful as Star Trek V: the Final Frontier, but InsurrectionFirst Contact, the J.J. Abrams movies, and Discovery are all strong contenders for second place.

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First Contact is at least FUN.  Insurrection is bad AND boring.  

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13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's expensive, and CBS seems to be rapidly running out of money to keep Star Trek moving between Discovery generating near-zero licensing revenue, Star Trek: Picard drawing a big fat zero from the licensees, and Netflix passing on Star Trek: Picard altogether.

I'm just waiting to buy a kit of DSC 1701, or light-up-toy DSC 1701, or whatever.  (the Eaglemoss diecast one just doesn't do it for me---looks more like primer grey-ish, and not the awesome quasi-gunmetal NX-01-homage coloring it seems to have on the show)  

Not sure what Picard could do, license-wise, asides from, well, a newer(older) Picard figure...

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6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nothing will ever be quite as incandescently awful as Star Trek V: the Final Frontier, but InsurrectionFirst Contact, the J.J. Abrams movies, and Discovery are all strong contenders for second place.

I want to see Star Trek Discovery. I still haven't checked it out yet. I guess I have high hopes for that one since I don't like the new movies. Perhaps I'm tired of being disappointed by Star Trek and that is making me hold off on watching it. Plus, I think Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 and Thor 3 are better, fun space adventure movies than any of the recent Star Trek or Star Wars movies.

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10 minutes ago, JetJockey said:

I want to see Star Trek Discovery. I still haven't checked it out yet. I guess I have high hopes for that one since I don't like the new movies.

I think Discovery is the best Star Trek we've gotten in 20 years -- a low bar to clear, admittedly -- but better than Abrams' films, more interesting than the TNG films, and more compelling than most of Enterprise.

But if you're going to enjoy it, you've gotta check your expectations at the door.  Star Trek has always been structured around an ensemble cast of characters with utopian ideals, but that was largely abandoned for Discovery.  Star Trek has tried to depict future history and technology in a consistent manner, but that was largely abandoned for Discovery.  Star Trek has an established aesthetic and visual sensibility, but that was largely abandoned for Discovery as well.

Even with Abrams' remake, Orci and Kurtzman bent over backwards to fit the film into established Star Trek continuity; yet Discovery (despite statements to the contrary) demonstrates little interest in doing the same.  They've basically created an alternate universe Star Trek, complete with a Spock who looks and acts even less like Leonard Nimoy's character than Zachary Quinto did.  If you're open to that, Discovery may be of interest to you... but if traditional Star Trek is more your cup-of-tea, watch The Orville instead.

 

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“Getting Worf’d?” That’s a thing?

I liked the first 15 minutes of Star Trek V. I don’t remember ever seeing the rest. 

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10 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

First Contact is at least FUN.  Insurrection is bad AND boring.  

The Earth parts of First Contact were fun, in no small part due to James Cromwell's portrayal of Zefram Cochrane... the portions set aboard the Enterprise-E were incredibly boring.

Insurrection was just a bad idea, start to finish.  A lesson nobody at Paramount learned about why the TNG crew are not action movie-friendly.

 

10 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

I'm just waiting to buy a kit of DSC 1701, or light-up-toy DSC 1701, or whatever.  (the Eaglemoss diecast one just doesn't do it for me---looks more like primer grey-ish, and not the awesome quasi-gunmetal NX-01-homage coloring it seems to have on the show)  

Likewise, though I suspect we're in for a long wait.  

To say that Star Trek: Discovery's designs weren't well-received by the fandom would be understating it to a comical degree.  One review I saw of the Eaglemoss Klingon "cleave ship" was basically just fifteen minutes of the reviewer laughing at how stupid the whole design was, and the backlash against the Crossfield-class design was apparent before the show'd ever aired.  I'd love it if Diamond Select were to do a scale toy of Pike's USS Enterprise from the series, but I suspect there won't be any takers on that license for a good while yet in light of the show's unpopularity with Star Trek fans.

 

Quote

Not sure what Picard could do, license-wise, asides from, well, a newer(older) Picard figure...

Odds are there'll be new ship designs and new designs for things like phasers, tricorders, commbadges, and so on... but the licensees were reportedly unhappy with all of it and have refused to license the designs.

 

 

4 hours ago, JetJockey said:

I want to see Star Trek Discovery. I still haven't checked it out yet. I guess I have high hopes for that one since I don't like the new movies.

Set course for disappointment... maximum warp.

Discovery is so much like the new movies, both in terms of design aesthetic and content, that many fans outright reject the showrunners assertion it's a Prime Continuity series.

Reports are that Star Trek: Picard is following suit, aesthetically and in terms of content, so that show is likely to be a massive disappointment as well.

 

2 hours ago, Sildani said:

“Getting Worf’d?” That’s a thing?

My good friend, you've never heard of The Worf Effect?

(Named in honor of the TNG writers' habit of showing any new threat is truly a threat by having them kick Worf's ass.)

 

Quote

I liked the first 15 minutes of Star Trek V. I don’t remember ever seeing the rest. 

You have no idea how much a lot of Trekkies envy you for that.

Star Trek V was a train wreck, basically made to satisfy a contractual obligation to Shatner that he would get anything Nimoy got after Nimoy got to write and direct Star Trek IV: the Voyage Home.  The whole premise of the Enterprise being hijacked by a rogue Vulcan on a mission to find god, who turns out to be a malevolent alien that Kirk then fights and beats, was pretty absurd... made worse by the knowledge that it was Shatner's "take that" at televangelists.  Yes, Spock's brother is Shatner's take on a space televangelist, which I suppose set the pattern for Spock's siblings to be horrible people.

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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I still haven't watched STD... (still loving the acronym though.:D) They just seemed to take such a hard turn away from what had been known for decades as the visual-references for the whole Star Trek universe that it was jarring. Same universe, but everything is different! Sure, they could do style changes so it all doesn't look like 1960's Future-tech, but they didn't even do that.

Do I recall correctly, that the first draft of the series was going to have a true pre-TOS look to it?

Then there is the fact that Discovery is just a butt-ugly ship and the changes they made just before the show started did not help it at all. I find myself more interested in watching season 2 with Pike and just skipping the first season - if I ever decide to waste time on it. Or just waiting for a hoped for series based on Capt Pike to come out...

Have to defend the JJ movies though, at least two out of three. Into Darkness was far too much of a TWoK rip-off, but the first movie and Beyond were pretty good. Except for the crappy look of the Enterprise-A...

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4 minutes ago, Thom said:

I still haven't watched STD... (still loving the acronym though.:D)

It's very apt... and that probably has a lot to do with CBS insisting it should be abbreviated DSC instead.

 

4 minutes ago, Thom said:

They just seemed to take such a hard turn away from what had been known for decades as the visual-references for the whole Star Trek universe that it was jarring. Same universe, but everything is different! Sure, they could do style changes so it all doesn't look like 1960's Future-tech, but they didn't even do that.

On various occasions, CBS has claimed or denied the claim that the aesthetic changes were motivated by a legal requirement of the way rights are split between the current CBS and Paramount.  Most fans generally attribute the show's thinly-veiled contempt for the Star Trek franchise and its continuity to Kurtzman sharing J.J. Abrams's dislike of Star Trek and its iconic high-concept sci-fi narrative style.  They didn't think twice about totally breaking Star Trek's continuity because they literally do not care about Star Trek itself.

That the same team is working on Star Trek: Picard is why everyone's cringing so hard anticipating how they're going to f*ck it up.

 

4 minutes ago, Thom said:

Do I recall correctly, that the first draft of the series was going to have a true pre-TOS look to it?

Just some empty talk from Bryan Fuller about wanting to return to the style of 60's sci-fi when they were first trying to pitch the idea of a new Star Trek series... nothing of that ever actually made it into the production.

 

4 minutes ago, Thom said:

Then there is the fact that Discovery is just a butt-ugly ship and the changes they made just before the show started did not help it at all.

They didn't care enough to actually have an original design done... they just lifted the rejected Ralph McQuarrie Enterprise design for the cancelled Star Trek: Planet of the Titans film project from the 70's.

 

4 minutes ago, Thom said:

I find myself more interested in watching season 2 with Pike and just skipping the first season - if I ever decide to waste time on it. Or just waiting for a hoped for series based on Capt Pike to come out...

You'll probably hate how disrespected Captain Pike is in the series... he's constantly taking crap from Burnham and the other female characters.

 

4 minutes ago, Thom said:

Have to defend the JJ movies though, at least two out of three. Into Darkness was far too much of a TWoK rip-off, but the first movie and Beyond were pretty good. Except for the crappy look of the Enterprise-A...

Kurtzman worked with Abrams on Into Darkness, which should tell you where his bad ideas come from.

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4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:
15 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

First Contact is at least FUN.  Insurrection is bad AND boring.  

The Earth parts of First Contact were fun, in no small part due to James Cromwell's portrayal of Zefram Cochrane... the portions set aboard the Enterprise-E were incredibly boring.

Insurrection was just a bad idea, start to finish.  A lesson nobody at Paramount learned about why the TNG crew are not action movie-friendly.

Sorry, but Insurrection IS TNG materialised in movie form and unlike First Contact doesn't burn out all its fuel after 25 minutes and end up with completely anti-climatic storytelling. Lets not even talk about its poor Aliens homage attempt and completely destroying the Borg myth.

As for DSC - it is not perfect, but I also don't think all of it is so bad as the internet-popular-opinion-mob shouts everywhere. Season 2 was definitely a step up, loved Pike, wished it was more ensemble and less central character driven. When it did have some crew moments, I thought it was great. I have arrange myself with general aesthetics like for ship designs, uniforms and gadgets. What I still have problems with is that the tech portrayal still feels far to advanced for something that predates TNG. Curious to see were season 3 will go. 

With the new Picard show, I am just glad we are going forward in the timeline and that TOS plays absolutely no role. After almost 20 years of nothing but prequels in proximity and a terrible, terrible reboot, I think we have paid enough tribute here.

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19 minutes ago, lechuck said:

As for DSC - it is not perfect, but I also don't think all of it is so bad as the internet-popular-opinion-mob shouts everywhere. Season 2 was definitely a step up, loved Pike, wished it was more ensemble and less central character driven.

Most Star Trek fans, myself included, would agree with you that season two was a step up for Star Trek: Discovery... they'd just gently remind you that it wasn't that big of a step up, that it was a step up from essentially rock bottom, and that it promptly took a step back down around halfway in when the nonsense plot involving Control was introduced.  Let's just say it's not accidental that both seasons essentially ended with "and let us never speak of this again".  I strongly suspect that CBS wrote the season two finale in anticipation of it being the last episode, given that they added "and also let us never speak of these people or this ship ever again on pain of death" as well.

 

19 minutes ago, lechuck said:

Curious to see were season 3 will go. 

Considering that CBS has renewed it but Netflix hasn't, it'll be interesting to see if there even is a season three.

That Netflix told CBS and Kurtzman to go bag it when Star Trek: Picard was pitched doesn't augur well for its longevity.

 

19 minutes ago, lechuck said:

 With the new Picard show, I am just glad we are going forward in the timeline and that TOS plays absolutely no role. After almost 20 years of nothing but prequels in proximity and a terrible, terrible reboot, I think we have paid enough tribute here.

Going forward is good, you'll get no argument there... the big concern for Star Trek: Picard is Kurtzman shitting all over Picard's well-established character.

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9 hours ago, Sildani said:

"Getting Worf’d?" That’s a thing?

Thanks for asking so I didn't have to, fellow "have better things to do than memorize tvtropes" person.

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On 5/21/2019 at 6:25 AM, tekering said:

But if you're going to enjoy it, you've gotta check your expectations at the door.  Star Trek has always been structured around an ensemble cast of characters with utopian ideals, but that was largely abandoned for Discovery.  Star Trek has tried to depict future history and technology in a consistent manner, but that was largely abandoned for Discovery.  Star Trek has an established aesthetic and visual sensibility, but that was largely abandoned for Discovery as well.

Even with Abrams' remake, Orci and Kurtzman bent over backwards to fit the film into established Star Trek continuity; yet Discovery (despite statements to the contrary) demonstrates little interest in doing the same.  They've basically created an alternate universe Star Trek, complete with a Spock who looks and acts even less like Leonard Nimoy's character than Zachary Quinto did.  If you're open to that, Discovery may be of interest to you... but if traditional Star Trek is more your cup-of-tea, watch The Orville instead.

 

On 5/21/2019 at 9:32 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Set course for disappointment... maximum warp.

Discovery is so much like the new movies, both in terms of design aesthetic and content, that many fans outright reject the showrunners assertion it's a Prime Continuity series.

Reports are that Star Trek: Picard is following suit, aesthetically and in terms of content, so that show is likely to be a massive disappointment as well.

 

This now has me worried. I thought Discovery was the opposite of the newer movies and a return to good Star Trek. I saw the original trailer and it looked good. There were some notable female cast members that seemed to be getting a lot of press. I think some hype about how the classic Star Trek type stories belonged on TV and that Discovery was going to do that. Of course this was all before the show started. I'm going to see if I can watch the first episode tonight.

 

And I thought The Orville was kind of a comedy spoof type Star Trek show kind of like that Space Balls thing.

 

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Just now, JetJockey said:

And I thought The Orville was kind of a comedy spoof type Star Trek show kind of like that Space Balls thing.

Kind of, though it has comedy, it's way more trek than Discovery. Which isn't saying much.

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29 minutes ago, Focslain said:

Kind of, though it has comedy, it's way more trek than Discovery. Which isn't saying much.

Ok. Somehow I am going to watch Discovery tonight. I remember seeing a cool shot on a planet and I thought it would be a good Star Trek show. Seems like every other space show is better than Star Trek these days. I think I posted it or I read other people think that Prometheus is a better space exploration movie than the new Star Trek movies. I take it you guys are saying that Discovery is basically another dumb space action show?

Edited by JetJockey

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14 minutes ago, JetJockey said:

This now has me worried. I thought Discovery was the opposite of the newer movies and a return to good Star Trek.

... ... ... what gave you that idea?

No, Star Trek: Discovery is so much in the mold of the thankfully-cancelled Star Trek reboot by J.J. Abrams that a lot of fans refuse to believe it's a prime continuity series.  There's very little of classic Star Trek in it, between the hideous Orc-like Klingon designs, the overly busy enemy ship designs, the Starfleet bridges with a great big fragile smart window instead of proper bloody viewscreens, phasers that fire blaster bolts that just burn holes in people, lots of exposed piping everywhere in Starfleet ships, a protagonist who's an utter berk who's been mysteriously promoted WAY above their level of competence (Burnham having apparently skipped Starfleet Academy entirely and was set to become a captain after just seven years of service on one ship), etc.  

Actual connections to real Star Trek are few and thin on the ground.  Season one is practically stand-alone except for brief mention of Kahless by some Kling-Orcs in the first episode and two terribly out-of-character appearances by a Harry Mudd who is downright malevolent.  The Short Trek miniseries between the two seasons started out pretty awful with a bad comedy bit followed by a dystopian far future schtick, but then had two proper bloody Star Trek episodes (including an absolutely wonderful Mudd episode) and season two almost managed to feel like real Star Trek for a few episodes there with Christopher Pike in the center seat before the rot set back in and it once again became the Michael Burnham Mary Sue Hour via a completely nonsensical main story arc involving an antagonist shamelessly thieved from the Star Trek relaunch novel verse (Section 31's master AI "Control").

There are a few aesthetic touches that are a bit hard to make out but are distinctly classic Star Trek-ish, like the Discovery's engine room having a classic Constitution-class horizontal warp core arrangement visible in the background, the phaser looking like a straight aesthetic update of the TOS phaser pistol (and an actually good looking one at that), and a VERY lovely but moderately unfaithful classic Constitution-class USS Enterprise briefly showing up complete with TOS-era sound effects.

 

14 minutes ago, JetJockey said:

I saw the original trailer and it looked good. There were some notable female cast members that seemed to be getting a lot of press. I think some hype about how the classic Star Trek type stories belonged on TV and that Discovery was going to do that. Of course this was all before the show started. I'm going to see if I can watch the first episode tonight.

That press was mostly bought-and-paid-for by CBS in the most stringently literal sense... they own the few websites that were actively praising the series, like ComicBook.com.  

 

14 minutes ago, JetJockey said:

And I thought The Orville was kind of a comedy spoof type Star Trek show kind of like that Space Balls thing.

The Orville is much closer to the spirit of classic Star Trek... it's not so much a straight comedy as an affectionate parody that is gradually playing itself straighter and straighter in the gap made by Discovery's failure to be a proper bloody Trek show.

 

2 minutes ago, JetJockey said:

I take it you guys are saying that Discovery is basically another dumb space action show?

That's about the shape of it, yes... by the schmucks who brought you Star Trek: Into Darkness.

 

 

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I pretty much hate into Darkness. I posted a short review in that topic here when I watched it way after it was it theaters. I don't remember anything really good about that movie. If the people behind that made Discovery, I can't see myself liking it that much. I thought it would be on CBS on demand by now but they still want money for it. I'm going to check the CBS sites and youtube and see if the first episode is there.

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Anyone that thinks Picard working with section 31 needs to remember he took part in a covert espionage action against the Cardassian Empire whom the Federation was at "peace" with at the time. This event led to his capture and torture(the five lights episode). There was also the time where he faked his own death to infiltrate a mercenary crew who were after a vulcan super weapon. Also he was perfectly fine commiting genocide of the borg until he got talked out of it.

 

He's a good diplomat, but he isn't above getting his hands dirty.

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I found Discovery online. I watched the first episode and thought it wasn't that bad at first. I liked the intro, some of which was in the original trailer that made me think the show would be good. I like the two lead actresses and their performance. I immediately thought that this is the new movie universe and not the original Kirk TV universe though. But I was willing to let that go if the show turned out to be good. Then I got to the end of the first episode and had to watch the second episode to see how things would work out.

 

This is stuff that we've seen in those new movies. I thought Discovery would be about discovery and new worlds like the Original Series and Next Generation. But this is more war stuff. And I was even more disappointed by the ending of the second episode and the teaser for later episodes. But I was still a bit curious as maybe there would be something to latch on to. So I checked the wiki and read about all of the episodes in Season 1 and 2. Had a bit of a double take on a new type of engine. Then looked at a few clips with the Enterprise. And no this show isn't for me.

 

If they want to make a future looking Star Trek maybe they should go more into the future? Or if they are so obsessed in thinking that people are only interested in Kirk or around that timeline, maybe they should make it retro looking with just a bit more effort put into the designs. Because this is really a mess now. I guess a plus is that I never watched all of the original series. So I can watch that and the versions with updated effects. Also there is Next Generation that I can rewatch in HD. Perhaps two good series and a few original series movies is enough for me. I still have the old Star Trek PC game to finish. Plus I like the SNES Next Generation game. That will probably conclude my Star Trek collection.

Edited by JetJockey

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6 hours ago, renegadeleader1 said:

Anyone that thinks Picard working with section 31 needs to remember he took part in a covert espionage action against the Cardassian Empire whom the Federation was at "peace" with at the time. This event led to his capture and torture(the five lights episode). There was also the time where he faked his own death to infiltrate a mercenary crew who were after a vulcan super weapon.

First, neither of those was espionage.  

Second, neither of those cases is even remotely close to Section 31's activities.  Section 31 operates without any kind of oversight and its operations range from actual espionage to sabotage, assassination, mass murder, and all manner of other illegal and immoral sh*t.  The Celtris III op in "Chain of Command" was an authorized Starfleet Intelligence operation approved and carried out under the supervision of Starfleet Command, a commando raid to destroy a suspected metagenic weapon of mass destruction.  The latter was essentially just an undercover police operation to bring to justice a group that had been looting archaeological sites in Federation space.  Dangerous, yes... but not spying (espionage), carried out under proper oversight, and not illegal or immoral.

 

6 hours ago, renegadeleader1 said:

Also he was perfectly fine commiting genocide of the borg until he got talked out of it.

He wasn't the only one... the only one to object was Dr. Crusher, initially.  

Their lack of disquiet with a plan to destroy the Borg - something the Federation would almost certainly have approved of at the time - likely stemmed from the then-current picture Starfleet had of the Borg as having no individual will, consciousness, or conscience.  They were believed to essentially be meat puppets controlled and programmed with malevolent intent by the collective mind.

What changed everyone's mind, Picard included, was talking to their captured Borg drone and the ensuing realization that it was a person whose individuality was being suppressed by the Borg collective.  Once it was clear they'd been planning to kill thinking, feeling people rather than just a malevolent cloud-based AI controlling a bunch of meat puppets, they scuttled the plan immediately.

 

 

3 hours ago, JetJockey said:

I found Discovery online. I watched the first episode and thought it wasn't that bad at first. I liked the intro, some of which was in the original trailer that made me think the show would be good. [...] Then I got to the end of the first episode and had to watch the second episode to see how things would work out.

Yeah, it doesn't really start ramping off the wreckage of Star Trek over seas full of burning sharks and garbage until Part II of the pilot.

 

3 hours ago, JetJockey said:

If they want to make a future looking Star Trek maybe they should go more into the future?

That is, allegedly, the plan for Season 3.

Even though they successfully killed the evil AI that wants to seize an alien data library full of information on AIs so that it can become an AI (if you just said "wait, what?" you're in good company) in the show's "present day" and thus essentially removed the entire reason for wasting half a season trying to find ways to get rid of the data library (just removing the affected computer core elements and vaporizing them with a phaser never seems to occur to them) by sending it into the future, the USS Discovery still heads off to get itself stranded 1,000 years in the future to keep the data out of the hands of the AI they literally just killed in 2257 who no longer exists in that future anyway.

If the sh*t-awful Short Trek "Calypso" is any indication, Kurtzman is likely setting up the Federation to be the bad guys in the far future despite Star Trek: Enterprise establishing the 31st+ century Federation was still very much the Big Good and a utopian civilization.

Kurtzman's determined effort to turn Star Trek from a utopian series to a dystopian one with heavy overtones of militant nationalism are probably going to heavily color the work being done on Star Trek: Picard.

 

3 hours ago, JetJockey said:

Or if they are so obsessed in thinking that people are only interested in Kirk or around that timeline, maybe they should make it retro looking with just a bit more effort put into the designs. Because this is really a mess now. I guess a plus is that I never watched all of the original series. So I can watch that and the versions with updated effects.

I don't recall if they've ever commented on it directly, but most fans suspect that Star Trek: Discovery's producers were hoping that making Michael Burnham into a never-before mentioned foster sister of Spock's was an attempt to give her instant appeal with the Trekkies.  It backfired horribly, due to her being a terrible person, so they tried to salvage it using Spock himself, Captain Pike, Number One, and the USS Enterprise in season two and it still didn't work because fans were incensed over Spock apparently being mentally ill, Pike constantly taking crap from Burnham despite her being under his command, and the Enterprise only showing up as a disabled ship needing a tow back home until the very end.

 

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HYPED

 

 

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Wait - I thought ST:P was about Picard in section 31.  His growing wine actually sounds better.

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I just gotta hear him say, at least once, "I'm getting to old for this sh-t".

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I kinda felt bad for him from that trailer... like they just dragged an old man out of his retirement. I have a bad feeling about this..

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19 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Wait - I thought ST:P was about Picard in section 31.  His growing wine actually sounds better.

That's what was leaked... that he was going to be in Section 31.

 

12 minutes ago, davidwhangchoi said:

he looks retired

3 minutes ago, jenius said:

I kinda felt bad for him from that trailer... like they just dragged an old man out of his retirement. I have a bad feeling about this..

I'm more curious how he retired to a vineyard said to have burned down many a year ago?

 

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