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Valkyrie Driver

Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

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On 6/15/2018 at 3:47 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

For the sake of convenience, the following rant will be color-coded!  
VFs that officially exist and have appeared in a Macross official setting work
VFs that officially exist and have NOT appeared in a Macross official setting work.
VFs that exist solely in non-official works like Variable Fighter Master File
VFs whose placement is speculative.

 

Generation 0 - "Prototype Generation"
This generation is purely speculative and exists mainly to segregate designs that do not fully comply with the design qualifications for the First Generation Variable Fighter (e.g. thermonuclear reaction turbine engines) and were built principally for evaluation purposes rather than mass produced for actual combat service.

  • YVF-X-0
  • VF-0 Phoenix (YVF-X-0B)
  • VF-0-NF
  • Sv-50
  • Sv-51
  • Sv-51Σ (Unmanned Sv-51)

 

Generation 0.5 - "Upgraded Prototype Generation"
This generation contains designs that exist only in Variable Fighter Master File.  These VF designs are upgrades of the 0th Generation prototypes that were upgraded with technology from 1st Generation VFs or otherwise modernized to make them viable for long-duration operation.

  • VF-0+ Phoenix Plus
  • Sv-51Ω (Repurposed incomplete Sv-52 with conventional engines)

 

Generation 1 - "First Generation"
The defining traits of this generation are the adoption of Overtechnology, including thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, laser weaponry, energy converting armor, etc. in a production variable fighter.

  • Sv-52
  • VF-1 Valkyrie
  • VF-X-2

 

Generation 1.5 - "Upgraded First Generation"
First Generation designs upgraded with Second Generation hardware drawn from the VF-4.

  • Sv-51 Replica (Macross 30)
  • VF-0 Phoenix Replica (Macross 30)
  • VF-1 Valkyrie Plus (Blocks 6 and later, incl. VF-1X)
  • VF-1P Freyja Valkyrie
  • VF-1X++ Valkyrie Double Plus
  • VF-1C Civilian Valkyrie
  • VF-1EX Valkyrie EX
  • VF-3000S Crusader
  • VF-3000B

 

Generation 2 - "Specialization for Emigrant Fleets"
The hallmarks of the Second Generation designs include the adoption of Zentradi overtechnology, refinements for regime-optimized performance in either atmosphere or space, "lessons learned" from the First Space War, and optionally the adoption of particle beam weaponry.  Most were intended for use by emigrant fleets, with low cost, simplified manufacturing, and parts-sharing.

  • VF-X-3
  • VF-4 Lightning III
  • VF-3000S Crusader
  • VF-3000B Bomber Valkyrie
  • VF-5000 Star Mirage
  • VF-5
  • VF-6
  • VF-7
  • VF-9 Cutlass
  • VF-X-10
  • V-BR-2
  • VA-X-3

 

Generation 2.5 - "Upgraded Second Generation"
Second Generation VFs that were modernized to keep them in service alongside Third Generation VFs.

  • VF-4G Lightning III
  • VF-5000G Star Mirage
  • VF-9E Cutlass

 

Generation 3 - "Project Nova and Diversification"
The Third Generation VFs are defined chiefly by the Project Nova design contest that decided the generation's main variable fighter as a true all-purpose successor to the VF-1 Valkyrie, but also by the continuing diversification of variable craft design into dedicated Attacker and Bomber roles.

  • VF-11A/B/C/D Thunderbolt 
  • VF-14 Vampire
  • VF-15
  • VF-17A/B/C Nightmare
  • VA-14
  • VAB-2
  • VA-3
  • VA-110 Variable Glaug
  • VB-6

 

Generation 3.5 - "Upgraded Third Generation"
Third Generation VFs that've been modernized or upgraded with technology drawn from Fourth Generation VFs to keep them viable or evaluate technologies meant for Fourth Generation implementation.

  • VF-11MAXL Thunderbolt 
  • VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor
  • VF-16
  • VF-17D/F/S/T Nightmare
  • XVF-19 (a modified VF-11)
  • Fz-109 Elgersoln
  • Az-130 Panzersoln
  • FBz-99 Zaubergern

 

Generation 4 - "Project Super Nova: the Advanced Variable Fighter"
The Fourth Generation's distinctive design traits are among the best known in Macross.  The adoption of the next-gen ARIEL airframe control AI, thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines, fighter-scale pinpoint barrier systems, and native compatibility for fold boosters.  This generation was largely defined by Project Super Nova, the ultimately futile contest between the YF-19 and YF-21 at Eden's New Edwards Test Flight Center.  The insurmountable technological and performance complications of the two designs led to a third design, the VF-171, becoming this generation's main variable fighter.

  • VF-19 Excalibur
  • YF-21
  • VF-22 Sturmvogel II
  • VF-22 Sturmvogel II (SMS Type)
  • VF/B-22 Jagdvogel II
  • VF-171 Nightmare Plus (Blocks I and II)
  • VB-171 Nightmare Plus (Blocks I and II)
  • RVF-171 Nightmare Plus (Blocks I and II)
  • Sv-154 Svard
  • Feios Valkyrie
  • Fz-109G Elgersoln Gustaf 

 

Generation 4.5 - "Upgraded Fourth Generation"
The Generation 4.5 designs are few, and consist mostly of VF designs that were either upgraded to evaluate tech for eventual adoption by Generation 5 designs, or ones that were upgraded in extremis to make them more effective in combat against the Vajra.

  • VF-19ACTIVE Nothung
  • VF-19EF Caliburn
  • RVF-19EF Caliburn
  • VF-19EF/A Excalibur ADVANCE
  • VF-22HG Schwalbe Zwei
  • VF-22 Sturmvogel II "Manfred"
  • VF-22 Sturmvogel II "Ushio Todo Custom"
  • VF-171 Nightmare Plus (Block III and IIIF)
  • VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX
  • VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX Throne
  • RVF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX
  • Queadluun Alma

 

Generation 5 - "Project Evolution and Decentralized Development"
The Fifth Generation of Variable Fighters started development as a response to the disastrous first contact with the insectoid alien race known as the Vajra.  Existing VF designs proved utterly inadequate to rival the performance of Vajra drones, and new programs were launched to develop countermeasures for the high-g forces and other major problems with the newly finalized Fourth Generation.  The design hallmarks of Fifth Generation Variable Fighters include the adoption of Inertia Store Converter technology to insulate the cockpit against high g-forces, Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, contactless Linear Actuator technology for transformation, the ARIEL II airframe control AI, Extender Gear (EX-Gear) user interfaces, Advanced Energy Conversion Armor (ASWAG), and heavy quantum beam weaponry.

  • YF-24
  • YF-24 Evolution
  • VF-24
  • YF-25 Prophecy
  • VF-25 Messiah
  • YF-26
  • YF-27 Shahar
  • VF-27 Lucifer
  • YF-28 
  • YF-29 Durandal
  • YF-29B Percival (NUNS Ver.)
  • YF-30 Chronos
  • YF-30B Chronos (NUNS Ver.)
  • VF-30
  • VF-31 Kairos
  • Sv-262 Draken III
  • Queadluun Alma

 

Generation 5.5 - "Fold Wave Performance Enhancement"
The precise criteria for considering a design to belong to Generation 5.5 are unclear at the present time, but remarks by Tactical Sound Unit Walkure leader Kaname Buccaneer and team mechanic Makina Nakajima suggest that a Fifth Generation VF which has been upgraded with a fold wave-based performance enhancement system may technically qualify as Generation 5.5.  The only craft explicitly identified as belonging to this VF Generation is the Xaos Valkyrie Works VF-31 Siegfried, which may indicate Generation 5.5 is an informal classification used only by Xaos.  Previous media have suggested the VF-31 Siegfried and others are considered Fifth Generation VFs.

  • YF-28
  • YF-29 Durandal
  • YF-29B Percival
  • YF-30 Chronos
  • YF-30B Chronos (NUNS Ver.)
  • VF-30
  • VF-31 Siegfried (Xaos Custom)
  • Sv-262 Draken III

Since the subject of Generations came up, it's about time to revive THIS monstrosity I wrote...

Edited by Seto Kaiba
One minor update, to add VF-22 SMS Type to Gen 4.

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First, I know about your work in progress efforts to distinguish generations and mostly agree with it. More to it later.

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... I have no idea where you got any of this.

We have never had any statement of output power from a mecha-scale Zentradi thermonuclear reactor.  

The VF-1 Valkyrie was frequently shown scoring kills on Zentradi battle pods using its laser cannons in Super Dimension Fortress Macross.  Max is also shown inflicting severe damage on Milia's Queadluun-Rau using his VF-1S's laser cannons in Macross: Do You Remember Love?.  

AFAIK, there has never been any statement that the Tomahawk destroid was unable to move and fire its charged particle beam cannons at the same time.

...but we know Q-Rea reactor improved on those, but not doubling output, so we have a pretty general idea.

Although I remembered about Hikaru using head lasers against Bodolza, he used those for the little extra firepower. Most of the damage was made with his many other weapons. Ditto for Max vs Milia. I knew about SDF lasers adding to the show, but I can't remember if those did any damage or if Robotech extra painted lasers did.

Anyway, I was using the somewhat retconned fact that Frontier established great power output was needed for significant beam effects. Even if Gamlin used beams against Elgerzoln to great effect.

That is why I abused the fact most Tomahawks seen firing are always depicted as standing in place.

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

While it is true that General Galaxy's designs do have a rather unsubtle Zentradi influence thanks to chief designer Algus Selzaa, neither of these designs were influenced by the tech obtained from capturing the Quimeliquola AWDAP station in 2035.  The VF-14 had been in mass production for seven years already when the station was captured, and the VF-17's design had already been completed and entered testing that same year.

Didn't know. That is neat. So no revolutionary jump in technology, just a Zentran take on it (and bigger engines in the VF-14, as in the VF-3000).

I thought, wrongly, that the VF-17 was the first to use Q-Rau technology because of the missiles, arm mounted guns, thus I made the wrong assumption that it was the first step in replicating the Q-Rau when in fact the YF-21 was such first step and the VF-17 was merely a design choice. And I agree that while the Q-Rea meant successful replication, it didn't mean such technology would be no longer refined. But the VF-27 isn't simply an evolutionary step, because its engines are a revolutionary step ahead. Obviously all VFs have a lineage, descending from the SV-51, the VF-X, the VF-0 or a combination.

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As said, I mostly agree. Mostly. And I do not intend to enforce another classification, because, as in the real world, those are merely a loose guide, like treating advanced variants of the Flanker as 4.75+ instead of 4.5+ when no clear outcome nor clear clash between generations could derive a definite conclusion.

I will just air some objections for you to ponder their merit or lack of, just for the shake of discussion.

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Generation 1 - "First Generation"

The defining traits of this generation are the adoption of Overtechnology, including thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, laser weaponry, energy converting armor, etc. in a production variable fighter.

Generation 2 - "Specialization for Emigrant Fleets"
The hallmarks of the Second Generation designs include the adoption of Zentradi overtechnology, refinements for regime-optimized performance in either atmosphere or space, "lessons learned" from the First Space War, and optionally the adoption of particle beam weaponry.  Most were intended for use by emigrant fleets, with low cost, simplified manufacturing, and parts-sharing.

Generation 3 - "Project Nova and Diversification"
The Third Generation VFs are defined chiefly by the Project Nova design contest that decided the generation's main variable fighter as a true all-purpose successor to the VF-1 Valkyrie, but also by the continuing diversification of variable craft design into dedicated Attacker and Bomber roles.

Generation 4 - "Project Super Nova: the Advanced Variable Fighter"
The Fourth Generation's distinctive design traits are among the best known in Macross.  The adoption of the next-gen ARIEL airframe control AI, thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines, fighter-scale pinpoint barrier systems, and native compatibility for fold boosters.  This generation was largely defined by Project Super Nova, the ultimately futile contest between the YF-19 and YF-21 at Eden's New Edwards Test Flight Center.  The insurmountable technological and performance complications of the two designs led to a third design, the VF-171, becoming this generation's main variable fighter.

First, lessons should be learned on any confrontation. Israelis added longer exhaust to their A-4s to mitigate SAM effects on those, but wouldn't merit a .1 upgrade in their classification. If F-16 are Gen4 and F-21 (F-16 Block 70+, not the Kfir) are 4.75, where do I place an F-16 Block 30?

VF-4s MAY be 2nd Generation, even if mostly a VF-1 amalgamated with a Strike Pack. But that is the Macross equivalent of treating the F-15E differently than a F-15C with fuel tanks.

But even if not clear enough, the VF-5000 does not feel generationally over the VF-1. Younger, sure, but generationally it is 1.1 at best. Otherwise, the EF-2000 would be 5th generation, or the Chinese F-8 would be 4th gen, while in fact, as MiG-21 derived, would be 3.95+ at most. The VF-5000 is like making today, intentionally, a 4th gen. equivalent cheap trainer craft, like the Korean F/A-50, superior to early F-16 variants.

If 2nd generation defining factors are Zentran and beam weaponry, the only one that uses beam technology is the VF-4, and not much Zentran tech is seen that differs so substantially of already gathered from Macross.

VF-11 had bigger fuel tanks, lighter frame, stronger SWAG, but the real difference with the VF-1 was engine power and having a shield. No, that is not true: avionics and awareness seemed better than VF-1 and VF-0 (that had better imagery and controls than first VF-1 blocks).

So if the VF-5000 is fairly 1.1, the VF-3000 1.5 and the VF-9 1.75+, I don't know where to put VF-4 and VF-11. Maybe 2 and 2.9? Shouldn't the VF-9 be 2.7 then?

What is clear is that having fighter grade pin-point barriers is revolutionary and deserves a generation of its own. What is less clear is if that makes 4th, 3rd or even 2nd.

Edited by Aries Turner
Grammier

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54 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

...but we know Q-Rea reactor improved on those, but not doubling output, so we have a pretty general idea.

The Queadluun-Rhea's thermonuclear converter belongs to a completely different category of reactor system, so we're not really sure how it shakes out when compared to a VF's thermonuclear reaction turbine engine.

 

54 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

Although I remembered about Hikaru using head lasers against Bodolza, he used those for the little extra firepower. Most of the damage was made with his many other weapons. Ditto for Max vs Milia. I knew about SDF lasers adding to the show, but I can't remember if those did any damage or if Robotech extra painted lasers did.

The VF-1's ROV-20 laser cannons are shown to be pretty darn effective throughout the original series... one of the first uses we see of 'em is Roy popping a Regult like a big metal balloon with a quick burst from his VF-1S's four.  Most of the kills we see the brownies rack up are with their laser weapons too.

 

54 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

Anyway, I was using the somewhat retconned fact that Frontier established great power output was needed for significant beam effects. Even if Gamlin used beams against Elgerzoln to great effect.

Well, it's all a question of scale... if you're looking to take down a lightly armored target like a Battle Pod or a VF that's in fighter mode, you don't need a ton of firepower.  If you're trying to take on a hard-armored target like a Vajra, blow up a target in one hard hit, or punch through the hull of a battleship you need a LOT more oomph.  That's where you get the much more powerful beam weapons in Macross Frontier.  'course most of what's seen in Frontier are dimensional weapons, and it takes a fair amount of power to make them work in the first place but you get a lot of energy out of it too.

Those little laser cannons and beam machine guns are enough of a threat for VFs to have defensive countermeasures specifically against them like ablative anti-beam coatings to soak some of the damage from them.

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

I just will air some objections for you to ponder the merit or lack of merit of those, just for the shake of discussion.

FWIW, I'm pretty much going with the official generational definitions for the .0 Generations.

 

31 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

First, lessons should be learned on any confrontation. Israelis added longer exhaust to their A-4s to mitigate SAM effects on those, but wouldn't merit a .1 upgrade in their classification. If F-16 are Gen4 and F-21 (F-16 Block 70+, not the Kfir) are 4.75, where do I place an F-16 Block 30?

Definitions of fighter generation in Macross are likely a good deal less granular precisely because there isn't that kind of external pressure on development.  The Zentradi Army hasn't had a new technological development in half a million years, the first new hostile race to emerge wasn't seen until 2040, and the second was using fighters designed and built in the New Unification Government's sphere of influence by one of its own defense contractors.

 

31 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

VF-4s MAY be 2nd Generation, even if mostly a VF-1 amalgamated with a Super Pack. But that is the Macross equivalent of treating the F-15E differently than a F-15C with fuel tanks.

But even if not clear enough, the VF-5000 does not feel generationally over the VF-1. Younger, sure, but generationally it is 1.1 at best. Like making today, intentionally, a 4th gen. equivalent cheap trainer craft. If 2nd generation defining factors are Zentran and beam weaponry, the only one that uses beam technology is the VF-4, and not much Zentran tech is seen that differs so substantially of already gathered from Macross.

The 2nd Generation design classification largely focuses on the idea of efficient, low-cost VF designs with common parts and a focus on creating VF designs that excel either in space or in atmosphere rather than focusing on all-regime performance.  It's not so much a radical increase in performance or technical capability as a radical rethinking of what the actual requirements for a successful variable fighter should be.  Particularly within the limitations of a VF that might have to operate for decades aboard a cramped emigrant ship without a highly sophisticated onboard factory.

The VF-4, for instance, was the first true space-optimized variable fighter.  It wasn't that big of a leap forward in terms of technological sophistication or capability, but it added a lot of new features to help it in its intended role.  Thermonuclear reaction ramjet engines improved high-altitude performance.  Semi-conformal missile mounting stations improved its payload versatility and passive stealth properties.  Modular main weapon mounts enabled the fighter to swap from particle beam weapons to rotary cannons based on where it was expecting to operate.  Improvements were made to avionics, active stealth, controls, and so on.  

The VF-5000 came at it from the opposite angle, focusing on keeping costs low and providing an extremely effective no-frills atmospheric fighter to pick up any slack the VFs up in space left.  Its adoption of the same advances in avionics, active stealth, controls, engines, etc. and Zentradi overtechnology, as well as internalizing some of its armaments made it part of the 2nd Generation (also having been developed after the VF-4 further justifies that classification).  It was one of a number of VF designs developed for the same role, with similar requirements, and they all fall under the 2nd Generation umbrella.

 

31 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

VF-11 had bigger fuel tanks, lighter frame, stronger SWAG, but the real difference with the VF-1 was engine power and having a shield. No, that is not true: avionics and awareness seemed better than VF-1 and VF-0 (that had better imagery and controls than first VF-1 blocks).

Really, the VF-11's controls and cockpit configuration are more or less identical to what we see on the VF-1A-6 and later... some of which is tech we saw being evaluated on the VF-0 in 2008.

The improvements it's officially listed as offering are, yes, the bulletproof shield, better stealth performance, and improved armament and fuel capacity due to its larger size.

 

31 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

So if the VF-5000 is fairly 1.1, the VF-3000 1.5 and the VF-9 1.75+, I don't know where to put VF-4 and VF-11. Maybe 2 and 2.9? Shouldn't the VF-9 be 2.7 then?

What is clear is that having fighter grade pin-point barriers is revolutionary and deserves a generation of its own. What is less clear is if that makes 4th, 3rd or even 2nd.

... kinda curious how you've got one going backwards there.  The VF-5000 was developed from the failed VF-3000 program and the VF-9 was its facing competition from General Galaxy.  Generally each "next main fighter" is the start of a new .0 generation.  The VF-1, VF-4, VF-11, VF-19/22/171, and VF-24 so far...

Fighter-scale pinpoint barrier systems, native fold booster support, thermonuclear reaction burst turbines, and third generation active stealth are all explicitly design requirements that were the foundation of the 4th Generation "Advanced" variable fighters.  It wasn't a feature that came in alone, it was part of a package of advanced features that were all part of the same requirements package in Project Super Nova.

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As far as the official setting goes... it may help to include the names of all the known main fighter requirement packages.

  • Gen 1: VF-1 (it won over the VF-2—mostly because while the VF-2 was more technologically advanced, it was still in development and the UNS needed a fleet of VFs like yesterday).
  • Gen 2: VF-4 (it won over the VF-3... which was effectively blown up by the enemy in SWI, and they needed a space fighter like yesterday.  The VF-5000 came about later to plug the gaps in the VF-4's capabilities, and effectively shared the main fighter seat)
  • Gen 3: VF-11 in Project Nova (it won over the VF-14)
  • Gen 4: VF-19 in Project Super Nova (it won over the VF-22, but ultimately the main fighter went to the VF-171)
  • Gen 5: VF-24 in (?)Evolution(?) (it won over... itself?  Admittedly the name of this one is a bit fuzzy.  There was the joint Shinsei Industry/General Galaxy YF-24 in development, but that stalled for a few years before the YF-24 Evolution happened (ISC and a doubling of engine output being the main bumps, if memory serves).
Edited by sketchley

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I saw... somewhere... that the YF-24 was named the Oracle... was that a fan-made thing, or..?

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1 hour ago, Sildani said:

I saw... somewhere... that the YF-24 was named the Oracle... was that a fan-made thing, or..?

Probably, the YF-24 is named Evolution as far as we've seen. We don't know the production name for the Federal NUNS VF-24 though, which has really only been inferred. 

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2 hours ago, Sildani said:

I saw... somewhere... that the YF-24 was named the Oracle... was that a fan-made thing, or..?

Must be.  As far as we know, the original YF-24 that was codeveloped by Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy c.2040 was nameless and the final prototype Shinsei independently made after reviving the program was dubbed "Evolution".

 

Just now, NightmarePlus said:

What's this one? Is it the variant that appeared in Macross E?

Yeah, the Xaos Pipure branch's Echo Platoon machine specification after Kite's VF-171EX gets REKT and rebuilt as a support unit for Tactical Sound Unit "Thrones" with a radome that'd been converted into a "Live Dome" fold wave amplifier and that weird EVA-02 lookin' face.  (And, of course, that bizarre Barbie Pink paintjob... truly there is no color more appropriate for a stealth variable fighter than a bright pastel fuschia.  Ray Lovelock would approve.)

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2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Ray Lovelock would approve.

That reminded me: recently saw Macross Dynamite.

Basara's borrowed VF-19P have a conventional head unit, but then he opens it helmet-like to show a face beneath? WTF!

 

BTW: Delta featured Apples and a Shinigami. Did someone spot Ryuk? No Death Note? Was (L)ady (M) another veiled reference? Can someone pretty please put Hayate's name in that piece of paper?

Edited by Aries Turner

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1 hour ago, Aries Turner said:

That reminded me: recently saw Macross Dynamite.

Basara's borrowed VF-19P have a conventional head unit, but then he opens it helmet-like to show a face beneath? WTF!

Well, not quite... the VF-19P that Basara "borrows" (read: "steals") from the Zola Patrol to go chasing whales has a standard VF-19P-type monitor turret the entire time.

After it gets bukkake'd1 by galactic whale pollen2, he tries to clear the polarized cover over the monitor turret optics with one of the hands and what he manages to wipe away makes it look like the VF-19P has a face similar to what Basara's VF-19 Custom had thanks to the light from the sensors causing the polarized cover to glow green.

 

1 hour ago, Aries Turner said:

BTW: Delta featured Apples and a Shinigami. Did someone spot Ryuk? No Death Note? Was (L)ady (M) another veiled reference? Can someone pretty please put Hayate's name in that piece of paper?

I'd imagine anyone from Death Note save perhaps for Misa would find the entire cast of Delta appallingly clueless... 

 

1. ... no, I honestly can't think of another word for it.  Galactic whales got so fired up by Basara's singing that he got blasted with massive quantities of reproductive material.
2. Yes, pollen.  Turns out galactic whales are much closer to being plants than animals... which makes a certain amount of sense given that they're space-dwelling lifeforms that are sustained by the stellar radiation they absorb while passing through the star systems on their migration routes.

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, not quite... the VF-19P that Basara "borrows" (read: "steals") from the Zola Patrol to go chasing whales has a standard VF-19P-type monitor turret the entire time.

After it gets bukkake'd1 by galactic whale pollen2, he tries to clear the polarized cover over the monitor turret optics with one of the hands and what he manages to wipe away makes it look like the VF-19P has a face similar to what Basara's VF-19 Custom had thanks to the light from the sensors causing the polarized cover to glow green.

 

I'd imagine anyone from Death Note save perhaps for Misa would find the entire cast of Delta appallingly clueless... 

 

1. ... no, I honestly can't think of another word for it.  Galactic whales got so fired up by Basara's singing that he got blasted with massive quantities of reproductive material.
2. Yes, pollen.  Turns out galactic whales are much closer to being plants than animals... which makes a certain amount of sense given that they're space-dwelling lifeforms that are sustained by the stellar radiation they absorb while passing through the star systems on their migration routes.

Ya know, I accept your terms, but I always thought it was just blood from the reaction warhead detonation. 

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Just now, Master Dex said:

Ya know, I accept your terms, but I always thought it was just blood from the reaction warhead detonation. 

Macross Chronicle is surprisingly insistent that it is, in fact, pollen.

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7 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

So the reaction warhead net effect was making it finally blossom. Congrats to the proud fathers.

One has to wonder what exactly the poachers thought that reaction warhead was going to accomplish. 

They were trying to kill a creature whose entire metabolism is built on absorbing enormous amounts of stellar radiation by firing a warhead that emits a short, sharp pulse of powerful thermal radiation at it.  That's like trying to kill a potted plant by watering it slightly faster than usual.  If they'd had a dimensional resonance speaker, harsh language might actually be more effective.  

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9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

Yeah, the Xaos Pipure branch's Echo Platoon machine specification after Kite's VF-171EX gets REKT and rebuilt as a support unit for Tactical Sound Unit "Thrones" with a radome that'd been converted into a "Live Dome" fold wave amplifier and that weird EVA-02 lookin' face.  (And, of course, that bizarre Barbie Pink paintjob... truly there is no color more appropriate for a stealth variable fighter than a bright pastel fuschia.  Ray Lovelock would approve.)

Oh.

I was about to append "Alpha II Turbo" to the name on the assumption it was a joke and nothing that torturous could possibly be a real name outside of Capcom.

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6 hours ago, JB0 said:

Oh.

I was about to append "Alpha II Turbo" to the name on the assumption it was a joke and nothing that torturous could possibly be a real name outside of Capcom.

... that'd be a downright plain name in several of the Gundam settings.

But no, the Nightmare Plus EX "Thrones" type is totally a legit Macross design from the gaiden manga Macross E.  Mercifully a limited custom job Xaos Pipure produced for their experimental Tactical Sound Unit.  Elma Hoyly from Macross Dynamite 7 was involved in their development... she's gone and got a doctorate in something or other involved in biology or higher dimensional physics.

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Permit me a bit of post necromancy:

On 3/25/2019 at 2:58 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross-class SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global

Groans in sailor :p

Anyway, in a more on-topic subject, I was wondering if someone here had a solid grasp of how Energy Converting Armor works?  As a mechanical engineer, it's never made a lick of sense to me.  (I vaugely remember some kind of explanation like, the transformation interlocks clamp down extra hard?)  To be honest, I feel like it factors into the show so sparingly I usually can just ignore it completely.  Off the top of my head, the only time I remember thinking it was needed to explain something was when Hikaru crashes the VF-1D through multiple buildings and it's barely scratched.  If ECA wasn't constantly brought up by the likes of Master File, it almost feels to me like it could be filed under "early installment weirdness" like the magic hands on the VF-1S that were never seen again (and I've always thought are totally unnecessary).  Now I'm probably forgetting some glaring instance that will make me look foolish.  Thoughts?

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1 hour ago, DWN013 said:

Permit me a bit of post necromancy:

Only if it's accompanied by maniacal laughter appropriate to quality necromancy.  We have standards, you know. :p :lol: 

 

1 hour ago, DWN013 said:
Quote

Macross-class SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global

Groans in sailor :p

Eh?  The Spacy's not a "space navy" though... the most literal translation would be "space military" or "space army".  

Organizationally, the UN Spacy and New UN Spacy borrow at least as much from the Army Air Force as it does from the Navy, though the rank system is explicitly Army-style and always has been.  Tellingly, it spun off both an Air Force and a Marine Corps.  Bruno J. Global held the rank of Brigadier General in the UN Spacy at the start of the First Space War, and when he finally retired he was a General essentially by dint of being one of the highest-ranked survivors of the UN Forces.

 

1 hour ago, DWN013 said:

Anyway, in a more on-topic subject, I was wondering if someone here had a solid grasp of how Energy Converting Armor works?  As a mechanical engineer, it's never made a lick of sense to me.  (I vaugely remember some kind of explanation like, the transformation interlocks clamp down extra hard?)

Energy converting armor is one overtechnology that I've only ever seen explained in somewhat vague terms.

Physically, energy converting armor is described as a layered, laminated smart material made of hypercarbon composite armor material and an unspecified laminate that are said to become significantly tougher when charged by electromagnetic pulses.

That would suggest that it's some kind of advanced magnetoactive polymer, but the exact mechanism isn't clear.  The extent of its ability to change toughness is directly tied to the amount of electromagnetic field energy it's exposed to, which makes it REALLY hard to pin down exactly what physical principle is being leveraged.  For instance, the YF-29 uses the same armor material as the VF-25 but twice the material thickness and twice the power supplied to it produces four times the defensive ability.  It could be that it's using some kind of reverse dielectric elastomer to change the rigidity of the armor plating and laminate layers or there could be some more exotic effect that's changing the molecular bonds inside the composite and/or laminate to reversibly make them more resistant to deformation (like a memory metal that's constantly being pumped).  Maybe the electromagnetic field the system uses causes the armor plates to repel each other, resisting compression forces, while the laminate keeps them in alignment and spreads shock to prevent deformation.  Who knows?  (EDIT: that last one might be my new favorite contender...)

It's a mystery I'd like to find an answer to once my translation project kicks into high gear in earnest later this year.

 

Quote

To be honest, I feel like it factors into the show so sparingly I usually can just ignore it completely.  Off the top of my head, the only time I remember thinking it was needed to explain something was when Hikaru crashes the VF-1D through multiple buildings and it's barely scratched.  If ECA wasn't constantly brought up by the likes of Master File, it almost feels to me like it could be filed under "early installment weirdness" like the magic hands on the VF-1S that were never seen again (and I've always thought are totally unnecessary).  Now I'm probably forgetting some glaring instance that will make me look foolish.  Thoughts?

For the most part, it's Kawamori's explanation for the inconsistent toughness displayed by VFs throughout the first couple Macross shows.

VF-1's were seemingly Made of Explodium in Fighter mode, but in GERWALK or Battroid mode they could bull through reinforced concrete structures with little more than a couple scuffs in the paint to show for it.  This got particularly egregious in Macross Plus, where the YF-19-1 was supposedly totaled in a crash that killed its pilot but a GERWALK mode VF-11  piloted by Isamu comes out halfway intact with only moderate injuries to its pilot and we later see the YF-19-2 and YF-21 ramming through whole buildings at speed with no damage.

Kawamori first mentioned energy converting armor in the mid-90's, but it didn't actually get an in-story mention until Macross Zero and they didn't really start harping on it until the Macross Frontier series started harping on the Vajra having energy converting armor in their carapaces that exceeded the defensive ability of even the latest VFs and made 'em extremely difficult to kill.

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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Thanks Seto.  I have a lot to say about that first point, but i gotta go to bed so I'll type it later.  Real quick tho:

44 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Kawamori first mentioned energy converting armor in the mid-90's, 

Pretty sure Roy remarks "something something the VF-1 is as tough as a tank!" when he's talking to Hikaru after the VF-1D crashes on South Ataria.  I always thought this was the first mention of ECA.  Huh, TIL.

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4 hours ago, DWN013 said:

Thanks Seto.  I have a lot to say about that first point, but i gotta go to bed so I'll type it later.  Real quick tho:

Pretty sure Roy remarks "something something the VF-1 is as tough as a tank!" when he's talking to Hikaru after the VF-1D crashes on South Ataria.  I always thought this was the first mention of ECA.  Huh, TIL.

The scene you're thinking of is in Macross Zero, where Roy mentions that the energy converting armor gives the VF-0 the toughness of a tank.

EDIT: About 20:20 into Macross Zero's first episode, when Roy and Raizo are talking about the VF-0's in the hangar on the Asuka II.

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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23 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The scene you're thinking of is in Macross Zero, where Roy mentions that the energy converting armor gives the VF-0 the toughness of a tank.

EDIT: About 20:20 into Macross Zero's first episode, when Roy and Raizo are talking about the VF-0's in the hangar on the Asuka II.

Fair enough, I guess my memory conflated the two scenes.

On 4/24/2019 at 10:15 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Only if it's accompanied by maniacal laughter appropriate to quality necromancy.  We have standards, you know. :p :lol: 

I'll have you know I possess only the most maniacal of laughter, I grew up listening to Frank Welker's Megatron. :p

On 4/24/2019 at 10:15 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Bruno J. Global held the rank of Brigadier General

...

TRIGGERED 

 

On 4/24/2019 at 10:15 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

though the rank system is explicitly Army-style and always has been.

I'm sorry Seto, but Nani?  As a navy man and a student of nihongo, this is patently absurd, may I ask where you're getting this from?

I started to write this long, intricate and frankly Seto Kaiba-esc retort to post in a new thread, and I still might do that, but now I thought better and will do the TL;DR version first:

You do know that the Japanese language has only one system of rank names for all services, right?  And that the vast majority of translators always default to the army version due to (what I call) army bias?

Here, SDFM episode 15, 19:29, Global is finally addressed as something other than Kancho ( 艦長. position of ship's captain ), and it's Junsho (准将).

and if you'll permit me again to have a little fun::p

1272836325_Junsho-Copy.png.12bf79c79a40e3a5ec64bea3240bc0e6.png

Not trying to come across as too pedantic, apologies if I am.  I'm just flabbergasted anyone would get army vibes from our favorite Italian starship captain.

Now, I also have to ask if you've read any of ol' Gubaba's translations, such as white reminiscences (wow that word is hard to spell).  Pretty sure he's got "admiral Hayase" and "Commodore Global" all over the place in those, one of them talks about Yokosuka and semi-submersible carrier ops.

Edited by DWN013

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59 minutes ago, DWN013 said:

TRIGGERED 

 

I'm sorry Seto, but Nani?  As a navy man and a student of nihongo, this is patently absurd, may I ask where you're getting this from?

(...)

EXCELLENT post.

That said, I think he's getting it from here: http://macross.anime.net/wiki/U.N._Spacy#Ranks

That link comes with a whole bunch of questions (E.g. Who decided the English terms for the UN ranks?  Why isn't the US's navy ranks listed?  ... and, why aren't there any other English speaking countries represented?)

 

Sidestepping that for a mo', we can also ask Jim Breen: http://nihongo.monash.edu/cgi-bin/wwwjdic?1E  he has both versions (Commodore, Brigadier General), but frustratingly, it's without context.

The Wikipedia entry is also helpful: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/准将   It helpfully lists some English ranks in the opening paragraph, HOWEVER, it unhelpfully links to the English "Brigadier General".

 

So, the main question I have is: where did Mr Egan Loo get the UN ranks from?  Were they dictated by the creators of Macross?  Or is it merely an artifact of the 'army bias' when he originally translated those ranks?

Edited by sketchley

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2 hours ago, DWN013 said:

I'll have you know I possess only the most maniacal of laughter, I grew up listening to Frank Welker's Megatron. :p

Oh, same... G1 Transformers was huge when I was a kid. :D 

(Ah, the days when popular fiction thought five inch floppy disks held enough information to destroy the world or unlock the secrets of creation...)

 

Quote

I'm sorry Seto, but Nani?  As a navy man and a student of nihongo, this is patently absurd, may I ask where you're getting this from?

Macross's creators... and the shows themselves.

Now, your confusion on this subject is understandable because everything you just said about the Japanese terminology is completely correct.  Translating the Japanese terms for military ranks is contextual unless they're prefaced by a branch of service.  Some fiction authors provide that context themselves in the form of explicit guidance to their translators and/or onscreen conspicuous English, and some don't.  Gundam's creators are often in the latter category.  Macross's are in the former.  Mind you, when it comes to space fleets, in popular fiction there tends to be an improper Navy bias rather than an Army one... since in reality a space fleet would fall under the jurisdiction of the Air Force (something that the makers of Stargate SG-1 got right and almost everyone else got wrong).

There are a lot of things one can do in the Navy, and the Village People will sing about them given half a chance, but holding ranks like First Lieutenant and Staff Sergeant are not among them.  There are a number of instances in Macross where the ranks of characters are shown on screen in conspicuous English, and they are invariably Army-style ranks.  For instance, in the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series episode "Blind Game", if you look at the markings on the ES-11D Cat's Eye reconnaissance plane you'll see that the name and rank of its pilot stenciled on the canopy frame read "S/SGT. H. IWATA" and Misa's seat is marked "F/LIEUT. M. HAYASE".  Macross Plus shows us a biographical summary from Isamu's personnel files at one point (which was faithfully transcribed, typos and all, into the liner notes), in which his affiliation is given as "UN SPACY" and his rank as "FIRST LIEUTENANT".  Macross Frontier publications provide the katakana for the SDFN-04's name as ジェネラル・ブルーノ・J・グローバル... "General Bruno J. Global" and SDFN-01's name as ジェネラル・ハヤセ "General Hayase" (presumably its full name is the General Takashi Hayase, Bruno Global's friend, mentor, and superior officer).  Likewise, Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy provides us with SDFN-08's name as ジェネラル・ブリタイ・クリダニク "General Vrlitwhai Kridanik" (using the official spelling of his name provided in the on-screen English text that accompanied the aforementioned katakana).  IIRC the official English subs produced in Japan for the Macross Frontier movies and the Macross Delta TV series and movie use Army ranks as well for both PMC personnel and the named NUNS ones.

Macross II's creators also reportedly dictated that the ranks in the OVA were to be translated as Army ones, which led to US Renditions giving Nex Gilbert an informal promotion to Major to avoid "Captain" (title) vs. "Captain" (rank) problems.  

These characters are all explicitly in the UN Spacy or New UN Spacy.  You can't be a Staff Sergeant or a General in a Navy, and First Lieutenant is a billet there rather than a rank... so the logical conclusion (as if the creators hadn't already told us the answer) is that it's an Army-style rank system.

 

Quote

Not trying to come across as too pedantic, apologies if I am.  I'm just flabbergasted anyone would get army vibes from our favorite Italian starship captain.

No worries.  I'm as pedantic as they go, and this particularly confusing subject comes up at least once or twice a year so I've been used to it for a long long time.

The understandable confusion certainly isn't helped by the fact that, prior to his transfer into the Spacy to assume captaincy of the Oberth-class space destroyer Goddard, our boy Bruno J. Global was a Commander in the UN Navy aboard the submarine Marco Polo.  (The UN Forces and New UN Forces seem to take a very Japanese view of transfers between branches of the armed forces.)

Nor, for that matter, is it helped that the (New) UN Forces steal a lot of their designation system from the US Tri-Service ones, and lifted their hull classification symbols and their Spacy squadron designations from the US Navy despite the Spacy explicitly not being a Navy and not using Naval ranks.

 

Quote

Now, I also have to ask if you've read any of ol' Gubaba's translations, such as white reminiscences (wow that word is hard to spell).  Pretty sure he's got "admiral Hayase" and "Commodore Global" all over the place in those, one of them talks about Yokosuka and semi-submersible carrier ops.

It's been a while since I visited his blog, but the short story you're thinking of is "Super Dimension Fortress Macross: the UN Wars: the Plundering Fleet" from the Macross Perfect Memory artbook.

That was the long form version of the anecdote Global shared with Misa on their elevator ride down to the base under Grand Cannon 1 in Alaska, where as an officer serving with her father on the UN Navy submarine Marco Polo, his crew had staged a fake enemy raid on their own side's supplies because their superiors were being dickish about resupplying their ship's badly depleted stores.  Naval ranks would've been appropriate there, since at the time both Hayase and Global were serving in the UN Navy.  (The UN Spacy was barely a year old at the time.)

 

EDIT: For fun, I'll be spending a good chunk of this weekend crawling around the interior of an old Forrest Sherman-class destroyer... so, y'know, go Navy.  DD-946 USS Edson, for the curious.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
Jeez... writing answers on antihistamines, and I start to sound like I'm narrating English As She Is Spoke.

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Interesting.  Looks like I will post that write up after all, and adjust it accordingly.  Thanks for the honest, engaging discussion Seto, and thanks for the assist Sketchley.

My post will cover a lot of things, but basically, what you're telling me is that every UN spacy / NUNS ship that has ever existed has had, as it's SHIP'S CAPTAIN, someone who is to be referred to as "Colonel" or "General".  This is madness.  And I will illustrate why.

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44 minutes ago, DWN013 said:

Interesting.  Looks like I will post that write up after all, and adjust it accordingly.  Thanks for the honest, engaging discussion Seto, and thanks for the assist Sketchley.

My post will cover a lot of things, but basically, what you're telling me is that every UN spacy / NUNS ship that has ever existed has had, as it's SHIP'S CAPTAIN, someone who is to be referred to as "Colonel" or "General".  This is madness.  And I will illustrate why.

To wit, Max is a Colonal in Macross 7 as well. I think it even gets said on screen once or twice.

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46 minutes ago, DWN013 said:

[...] but basically, what you're telling me is that every UN spacy / NUNS ship that has ever existed has had, as it's SHIP'S CAPTAIN, someone who is to be referred to as "Colonel" or "General". [...]

Well, yes... unless the translation convention at work in the series that's rendering what is officially supposed to be spoken English into Japanese for the convenience of the domestic audience is concealing the use of some special title analogous to the one that exists in Japanese.

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11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

(...)

These characters are all explicitly in the UN Spacy or New UN Spacy.  You can't be a Staff Sergeant or a General in a Navy, and First Lieutenant is a billet there rather than a rank... so the logical conclusion (as if the creators hadn't already told us the answer) is that it's an Army-style rank system.

(...)

 

Wait a sec... didn't you just contradict yourself?  Earlier (in the same post) you mention that the a space fleet is air force.

The link I gave above to the Macross Compendium itself also errs for the air force ranking structure too...

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1 hour ago, sketchley said:

Wait a sec... didn't you just contradict yourself?  Earlier (in the same post) you mention that the a space fleet is air force.

Not as such, no.  Granted, I did state that in the real world a space fleet would fall under the administrative jurisdiction of the Air Force.  

In hindsight, I should have added as an addendum to that the caveat of "unless a new branch of service is specifically established to administrate and operate it".  Logically, that would be spun off the branch of service that already has overall responsibility for military operations in space: the Air Force.

In Macross, the UN Spacy seems to be set up as a Space Army with its own Air Service.  They're committed enough to the Army schtick that the Destroids even have Army style bumper code markings in the line art along the lines of the system that was established in the 1940's with AR-850-5.

 

Quote

The link I gave above to the Macross Compendium itself also errs for the air force ranking structure too...

For maximum irony, the translation of Super Dimension Fortress Macross that Egan Loo himself consulted on translates the enlisted ranks as Army ones rather than Air Force.

Hikaru is referred to as a Sergeant when his rank is given as 軍曹, and both Max and Kakizaki are referred to as Corporal when their rank is given as 伍長 rather than the Compendium wiki's Staff Sergeant and Sergeant respectively.

It'd be nice if we had a bigger sample to work with, but Super Dimension Fortress Macross was the only time we had characters who were enlisted rather than officers or officer trainees right from the outset.  DYRL? made Hikaru, Max, and Kakizaki all 2nd Lieutenants at the outset.  

As the Spacy ends up being a distinct entity from the Spacy Air Force, I'd say Army style for the Spacy rather than Air Force is probably the safer bet.

 

EDIT: No help from the video games... Skull squadron's Purple platoon from the Super Dimension Fortress Macross video game is a 1st Lieutenant and a pair of Sergeants.

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not as such, no.  Granted, I did state that in the real world a space fleet would fall under the administrative jurisdiction of the Air Force.   

I feel obliged to note that is the modern real world. In the pre-NASA days, every branch of the US armed forces had a space program, with all of them rushing in a competition to be the first with the best so that they would become THE space force.

But, of course, the real-world space service seems like a pretty sad joke next to most fictional space forces(unless the air force is hiding an awful lot more under the black bars than we think, and somehow doing it at reasonable costs for once). Just a bunch of boring satellites. Get back to me when they have a manned presence.

 

From a fictional standpoint, the naval force makes the most sense to base your fictional space force off of. Most fictional space forces have space battleships and space carriers and space destroyers. The real navy has pre-existing analogs for all of that and the associated support mechanisms, so no one has to re-invent the wheel. 

In that regard, it is rather odd that Macross chose to follow army tradition rather than naval or air force. Perhaps the titular ship's roomy interior and large civilian populace made the writers feel they had more leeway to reinvent things. The city especially gives them less of a "carrier life" vibe and more of a "coastal base" one, so the nautical analogy is less useful.

...

It is also possible they were just avoiding unwanted comparisons to Star Trek.

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Any of the show creators have any military experience of their own? If so, maybe it’s a carryover from their JSDF times. 

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6 hours ago, JB0 said:

it is rather odd that Macross chose to follow army tradition rather than naval or air force

I would say it is deliberate differentiation, doing something not too far fetched.

We are USED to the idea about space forces correlating with Navy because Fantasy Space Battles are influenced by slow hulks in space moving at very low speeds relative to enemy fleets, while 'throwing cannonballs' at relatively close range, when in fact acceleration is the only thing that matters in space, where one vessel may be strafing other at tremendous relative speeds, while never in naked eye view range (but at distances of half a light second or less, due aiming constraints).

Aviation in the beginning was just an Army tool to hit the rear of an opposing Army, or anything within that and the front. When the "Air Cavalry" was shown to be able to hit deeply into enemy territory, not to destroy the actual opposing Army but their supply lines, the Air Force was born to search for (strategic) targets beyond the Army immediate (tactical) needs.

That is why bomber nukes are Air Force's, Tridents are Navy's, and Minuteman AREN'T Army's: intermediate range nukes are Army's, but global reach is Air Force area of expertise.

BUT military requirements are the guidelines, not the nature of the weapon. IF helicopters are to be used beyond Army support duty to strike military installations deep into enemy territory, not while supporting the advancement of an Army, then those are Air Force, like in the Israeli Defense Forces. So an Space Force may fall into any of the three branches of the armed forces or be a fourth, with entirely different ranks.

But some countries have more than just Army, Navy and Air Forces. Coast Guards may not depend of a Navy chain of command, depending instead on an entirely different one that is also charged with customs at airports and border patrols.

Again, REQUIREMENTS are the guidelines, and Spacy may as well had ranks not present in any other branch. HOWEVER, you may think of the Spacy as advancing Tanks, Personnel Carriers (with planet landers) and VF 'choppers', no doubt an Army charging the enemy. As VFs are very short range in these engagements, there is NO deep strike capability without the 'Army' advancing. Occupying and defending land is one of Spacy objectives. Defending trade routes, not so much. So again, Army, not Navy.

Edited by Aries Turner

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10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

(...)

In Macross, the UN Spacy seems to be set up as a Space Army with its own Air Service.  They're committed enough to the Army schtick that the Destroids even have Army style bumper code markings in the line art along the lines of the system that was established in the 1940's with AR-850-5.

(...)

I'm glad that you mentioned the Destroids, because it reminded me of something: there is a Unified Forces Army.

I can't recall the specific sources, but essentially, the branches of the Unified Forces are: UF Army, UF Air Force, UF Navy, UF Spacy, and UF Marines.

So, I'm afraid, we're not anywhere closer to something decisive.

 

That said, your point on the bumper code markings just reminds me of how awesome a designer Kazutaka Miyatake is!

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