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Valkyrie Driver

Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

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6 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

The stampede Valkyrie is sort of the Gundam Heavy Arms of Macross. 

That would really be cool though...

This are the Armaments I got from the Gundam Wiki for the Heavy Arms:

Fixed:
2 x Vulcan Gun
2 x Machine Cannon
6 x Homing Missile (44 x in EW ver)
24 x Micro Missile (52 x in EW ver)
2 x Chest Gatling Cannon
Army Knife
Beam Saber
Igel Armament (EW ver) - Two large missile pods on each shoulder, two small pods on each leg, and a pair of treads attached to the legs for better ground mobility.

Handheld:
Beam Gatling Gun

And this are the Armaments I got from the M3 for the VF-25S APS-25A/MF25 Armored Messiah:

Guns:
2 x fixed Mauler RÖV-127C coaxial 12.7mm beam guns (mounted center dorsal section in Fighter/GERWALK mode, becomes head turret in Battroid mode)
1 x Howard GU-17A new model 5-barrel 58mm gatling gun pod with retractable cover to provide air cooling for the barrels (mounted ventral fuselage in Fighter mode, in arm manipulator for GERWALK/Battroid modes)
1 x standard bulletproof (anti-projectile) shield (mounted center rear dorsal fuselage in Fighter mode, mounted on arm in GERWALK/Battroid modes); the shield is composed of the enhanced energy conversion armor used in the APS-25A/MF25 Armored Pack
2 x Remington ES-25A 25mm high-speed machine guns or 2 x Mauler RÖV-25 25mm beam machine guns (mounted left/right of intakes in Fighter/GERWALK mode, on rotating hip mounts in Battroid mode)
1 x Ka-Bar OTEC AK/VF-M9 Assault Knife, 1.65m, super strong material reinforced by pin-point barrier system (mounted under left arm shield block)
1 x pin-point barrier system
4 x armored heat sinks (mounted two each on the right and left engines pods; includes built-in Phased array radar)
2 x Hachishuu Heavy Industries C-207 high-capacity capacitors to power beam guns, energy conversion armor and pin-point barrier system (mounted one inside frontal section of each booster pod)
4 x RÖV-22 22mm beam machineguns
2 x Otto/Sentinel 57mm anti-warship anti-air rapid-fire swiveling beam turrets with option of autonomous fire (capacitors mounted inside APS-25A/MF25 Armored pack)

Bombs & Missiles:
116 micro-missiles in 2 x HMM-5A Mobile Remington micro-missile CIWS launcher pods featuring 2 x micro-missile launcher pods each (40 mounted in two CIWS torso launcher pods; 76 mounted in two CIWS shoulder launcher pods)
128 micro-missiles in 4 x Remington Close-Range Micro-Missile Launcher Pods, Double-Loaded Type (64 mounted in four leg launchers; each launcher holds 2 loads of missiles for a total of 128 micro-missiles)
30 x 200mm anti-armor high-initial velocity rockets in 2 x Howard 15-tube launcher pods (mounted outboard in coverless launchers)
4 x outboard hardpoints for 4-8 large-size anti-ship reaction missiles
 

The Armored Messiah has at least 274 missiles... Hehehehe!

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6 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

The stampede Valkyrie is sort of the Gundam Heavy Arms of Macross. 

That would really be cool though...

's more impressive-looking than actually impressive... it's basically just a Strike Valkyrie with less weaponry.  A single large-bore charged particle beam cannon, a 35mm rotary cannon, and sixty-four missiles.

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That is why I love it, the absurd overarmored overgunned style.

...

Heavyarms just WISHES it had that beam cannon on the right arm, though. :p

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11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

's more impressive-looking than actually impressive... it's basically just a Strike Valkyrie with less weaponry.  A single large-bore charged particle beam cannon, a 35mm rotary cannon, and sixty-four missiles.

I mean that actually seems like more weaponry than a Strike. 

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55 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I mean that actually seems like more weaponry than a Strike. 

Presumably because the guns are much more overbuilt-looking on this version, and the missiles are built-in rather than mounted out on the wings.  In practical terms, it's actually less weaponry than a properly-outfitted Strike Valkyrie.

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So, Looking at Macross Mecha Manual, and looking only at internal armaments, the Stampede Valkyrie has the Strike beat. With a total of 64 missiles to the 18 on the strike, a single large bore beam cannon to the strike's double barrel, though it seems that there is a loss in firepower with the rotary cannon, 35mm 3 barrel on the Stampede, to the 55mm 3 barrel on the Strike (the GU-11 gunpod). The Stampede has no listed external hardpoints, so the Strike wins there with variation in types of munitions it can carry. 

Personally I like the strike better, because the Strike parts can be jettisoned, while the stampede is what it is, and as such would not work in atmo. 

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5 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

The Stampede has no listed external hardpoints, so the Strike wins there with variation in types of munitions it can carry. 

Not just variety, quantity too... with the four pylon wing configuration, the Strike Valkyrie can carry more missiles than the Stampede.  With four UUM-7 missile pods, the Strike's got 68 to the SDP-1's 64... or up to 86 under the later/larger HMMP-02 loadings.

(Plus it's worth noting that our numbers for the HMMP-02 micro-missile launcher option pack are based on the official art from the Macross: Do You Remember Love? Data Bank book, though an assortment of secondary sources including Variable Fighter Master File have suggested that later variants of the HMMP-02 increased the capacity of the launcher from 12 to the 20 missiles which several model kits and toys have shown.)

 

5 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Personally I like the strike better, because the Strike parts can be jettisoned, while the stampede is what it is, and as such would not work in atmo. 

The general vibe the Stampede gives off is that of a sort of halfway stage to the Armored Valkyrie that doesn't sacrifice the ability to transform.  

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Posted (edited)

On a lark, I started trying to draw an actual VF "Family Tree" like a more detailed version of Macross Chronicle Technology Sheet 01Q while I was bored on a conference call an hour or so ago... ave deus mechanicus this is hard.

I've had to start over eight nine times, and I'm not even past the second generation yet!  I literally screwed up again while I was writing this. :wacko:

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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Now imagine if you had to do that with the Su-27 family tree!

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2 hours ago, Sildani said:

Now imagine if you had to do that with the Su-27 family tree!

Guh.

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

On a lark, I started trying to draw an actual VF "Family Tree" like a more detailed version of Macross Chronicle Technology Sheet 01Q while I was bored on a conference call an hour or so ago... ave deus mechanicus this is hard.

I've had to start over eight nine times, and I'm not even past the second generation yet!  I literally screwed up again while I was writing this. :wacko:

I'm anxious to see what you come up with. Also... Perhaps you need to spend more time in prayer, to appease the machine spirit...

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Sildani said:

Now imagine if you had to do that with the Su-27 family tree!

I am a translator, not a masochist.

(I know there's not a lot of difference between the two sometimes, but there IS a key distinction there somewhere!  When I figure out what it is, I'll let you know.)

 

 

Quote

I'm anxious to see what you come up with. Also... Perhaps you need to spend more time in prayer, to appease the machine spirit...

I'm thinking it needs more incense... because everything's nice and linear and logical until you get to the VF-1 Valkyrie Plus and the parallel development of the VF-4 and VF-3000 by Stonewell/Bellcom and it turns into a wire diagram of somebody's plate of spaghetti napolitan.  No matter how I draw this (attempt fourteen, btw) design lineages result in lines crossing throughout the 2nd Generation programs and leading into the third thanks to General Galaxy (probably in the person of Alexi Kurakin) drawing inspiration for the VF-14 from the VF-4.

At least things'll straighten out once I get past the 4th Generation and it all becomes a nice linear tree from the YF-24 on.

 

In retrospect, I should use a dry erase board for this... I'm wasting a LOT of paper.

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I am a translator, not a masochist.

(I know there's not a lot of difference between the two sometimes, but there IS a key distinction there somewhere!  When I figure out what it is, I'll let you know.)

 

 

I'm thinking it needs more incense... because everything's nice and linear and logical until you get to the VF-1 Valkyrie Plus and the parallel development of the VF-4 and VF-3000 by Stonewell/Bellcom and it turns into a wire diagram of somebody's plate of spaghetti napolitan.  No matter how I draw this (attempt fourteen, btw) design lineages result in lines crossing throughout the 2nd Generation programs and leading into the third thanks to General Galaxy (probably in the person of Alexi Kurakin) drawing inspiration for the VF-14 from the VF-4.

At least things'll straighten out once I get past the 4th Generation and it all becomes a nice linear tree from the YF-24 on.

 

In retrospect, I should use a dry erase board for this... I'm wasting a LOT of paper.

Although it does get a little convoluted with the VF-19/YF-30/VF-31.

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11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not just variety, quantity too... with the four pylon wing configuration, the Strike Valkyrie can carry more missiles than the Stampede.  With four UUM-7 missile pods, the Strike's got 68 to the SDP-1's 64... or up to 86 under the later/larger HMMP-02 loadings.

(Plus it's worth noting that our numbers for the HMMP-02 micro-missile launcher option pack are based on the official art from the Macross: Do You Remember Love? Data Bank book, though an assortment of secondary sources including Variable Fighter Master File have suggested that later variants of the HMMP-02 increased the capacity of the launcher from 12 to the 20 missiles which several model kits and toys have shown.)

 

The general vibe the Stampede gives off is that of a sort of halfway stage to the Armored Valkyrie that doesn't sacrifice the ability to transform.  

But if the Stampede's writeup is correct, it wasn't meant for dogfighting. It was meant to be a shipbuster, without resorting to reaction weapons. A Strike Valkyrie doing the Stampede's job wouldn't carry the UUM-7, it would carry RMS-1 reaction warheads. (Which is largely why I assume the Stampede has a more powerful beam cannon than the Strike).

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Seto: I laughed out loud at your comments, my wife wanted to know what I was laughing at, so I told her. 

That’s kinda what she does for a living. She recommends putting your info into Excel or an Access database if you have access to those. Mark out your major categories within that Excel spreadsheet or the Access. 

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9 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Do we have any more info on the SV-154?

Alas, no... all we know about the Sv-154 Svard is:

  • The Sv-154 is a product of the SV Works, a design team established by former Sv-51 and VF-4 design team member, and General Galaxy co-founder, Alexei Kurakin as a pet project that was developing variable fighters designed to defeat other variable fighters rather than Zentradi and other alien threats.  (The SV is for "Slayer Valkyrie" or "Slayer of Valkyries".  Alexei seems like the kind of guy who probably listened to a lot of metal music.)  The team was sold off to Dian Cecht, an Epsilon Foundation subsidiary, at some point.
  • Consequently, the Sv-154 is almost certainly an anti-VF VF.
  • Strong circumstantial evidence from Macross Delta: the Black-Winged White Knight makes the Sv-154 likely a 4th Generation-equivalent main variable fighter rivaling the performance of the General Galaxy VF-171-II Nightmare Plus.
  • Given that the design is a tweaked reuse of the LV-7 Valorous Rapier "Excalibur" from Shoji Kawamori's Air Cavalry Chronicles1, it likely had a big f***-off sword.

 

 

11 hours ago, Devil 505 said:

Although it does get a little convoluted with the VF-19/YF-30/VF-31.

That's a pretty straightforward bit, actually.  The VF-19's many weird variants are mostly just stand-alone designs, barring a few that were intended to test technology for the YF-25 Prophecy.  The 5th Generation is super simple, the only bit that's a bit convoluted to draw is the relationship between the VF-25 and YF-29 since the YF-29 airframe is based on the YF-25's but they were developed at the same time but the VF-25/TW-1 is also a testbed for the YF-29's aerodynamics and weaponry and oh no I've gone crosseyed.

 

 

8 hours ago, JB0 said:

But if the Stampede's writeup is correct, it wasn't meant for dogfighting. It was meant to be a shipbuster, without resorting to reaction weapons. A Strike Valkyrie doing the Stampede's job wouldn't carry the UUM-7, it would carry RMS-1 reaction warheads. (Which is largely why I assume the Stampede has a more powerful beam cannon than the Strike).

The Strike's beam cannon was an anti-capital ship weapon, not intended for dogfighting.  That Roy was able to use it in dogfights is actually pretty darn impressive.  I'm not sure the Stampede had a more powerful beam weapon than the Strike, but then those FamilySoft games were all kinds of odd when it came to mechanical design.  They tried a few different times to add a new "super" fighter to the First Space War era, the other big one being the VF-X3 Medusa, a nightmare cobbled together from Destroid and VF-1A parts.

 

 

3 hours ago, Sildani said:

Seto: I laughed out loud at your comments, my wife wanted to know what I was laughing at, so I told her. 

That’s kinda what she does for a living. She recommends putting your info into Excel or an Access database if you have access to those. Mark out your major categories within that Excel spreadsheet or the Access. 

"Do you want 200,000 row spreadsheets?  Because that's how you get 200,000 row spreadsheets."

For the time being, my translation notes are partly handwritten, but mostly an ever-expanding set of indexed and annotated Microsoft Word documents detailing every variant I've come across so far.  I even briefly engaged the services of a college student from the local uni's foreign language dept. to speed up data entry.  Unfortunately, she is also terrified of my pets, so we kind of have to ring-fence her while she works.

 

 

1. Shoji Kawamori's Air Cavalry Chronicles was both a further development of the unrealized non-Macross series Advanced Valkyrie - the plot of which would go on to become Macross Plus - but also an early version of his fantasy work The Vision of Escaflowne before it became a fantasy series.  The factions and plot spun off into another genre, and the mechanical designs were absorbed into Macross  in Macross 7Macross M3, and the Macross VF-X series.  The LV-7 Valorous Rapier was a mecha of the Fanelian royal guard in that incarnation.

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I'm re-watching delta because reasons.

Is it just me or is the Sv-262 a higher performance fighter than the VF-31? Or is just that the Aerial Knights are just better pilots?

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Is it just me or is the Sv-262 a higher performance fighter than the VF-31?

By any objective standard of measure, the VF-31 Siegfried is a more advanced, higher performance variable fighter than the Sv-262 Draken III.  The Draken III may have more raw thrust, but it's also a noticeably heavier aircraft than the VF-31 Custom.  Its fold quartz reheat system provides a much greater increase in engine output than the VF-31 Custom's fold wave system does (25/30% vs. the Siegfried's 15%) but it's not quite enough to offset the difference in mass in the T/W ratio math on the mass production model, so the Siegfried maintains a slight advantage even when they're both overboosting.

 

Quote

Or is just that the Aerial Knights are just better pilots?

That has always been my interpretation.  I'm not even sure it's because the Aerial Knights are even really that good, since the New UN Spacy starts clobbering them despite flying old Block II VF-171s once King Ketchup is no longer mind-controlling everyone.  Xaos' PMC division as a whole seems to be a bush league operation compared to Strategic Military Services.  Delta Flight is their elite, but it really feels like they're only elite compared to the company's other, decidedly lackluster troops.

The Kingdom of the Wind's Aerial Knights, at least, are professional soldiers who've trained most of their lives to fly and fight.  Even the ones who trained before the war of independence expected to serve most of their lives in the Knights, and many of the ones who joined during or after the war's end are driven by a desire for revenge against a hated enemy.

Plus, y'know, they have naturally superior abilities in addition to being driven as hell and training like mad.

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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Any specifications of the Macross Elysion? I just read it was just half a Macross Class Ship. It's kinda weird though that while I was watching the last battle, it looks like it was just the size of the quarter.

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7 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Any specifications of the Macross Elysion?

Unless one of the kits I didn't buy has something on it, I've got nothing apart from its name, the designation SDF/C-108, and that it's approximately the height of the Burj Khalifa (~820m).  Just about twice the height of the Macross Quarter-class, making it 2/3 the size of a proper Macross-class ship.

 

7 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

I just read it was just half a Macross Class Ship. It's kinda weird though that while I was watching the last battle, it looks like it was just the size of the quarter.

There are some scale issues in Macross Delta caused by the lazy reuse of CG models from Macross Frontier... like the Barette City island ship being a reuse of the Island-1 model with some changes made to the interior texture to make it look smaller than the 15km original.

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The VF-19 Advance is not a direct modification of the VF-19A, correct? It's actually derived from the VF-19EF/EFs lineage? Aside from Appearance what really distinguishes the VF-19A/B/C/D from the VF-19E from the VF-19F/S and then the VF-19EF/EFs? 

Looking at the Bandai Toy, the only visual difference between the VF-19A/B/C/D and the VF-19 Advance is the way the cockpit opens, other than that it's almost identical. What really are the differences?

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8 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

The VF-19 Advance is not a direct modification of the VF-19A, correct? It's actually derived from the VF-19EF/EFs lineage?

According to its writeup in Macross Chronicle, yes... the official designation given on its Mechanic Sheet1 is VF-19EF/A "Isamu Special" and it is a modification of the VF-19EF Caliburn monkey model developed by the Macross Frontier emigrant fleet.

The Macross F the Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa Official Complete Book only mentions it in passing, as "VF-19 (SMS Ver.)".  The novelization of the movie refers to it as the "VF-19ADVANCE Excalibur Advance".

 

8 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Aside from Appearance what really distinguishes the VF-19A/B/C/D from the VF-19E from the VF-19F/S and then the VF-19EF/EFs? 

That is an excellent question... which version of the VF-19E are we talking about?

This is one of the more annoying questions of the VF-19 lineage.  Namely, whether the VF-19E was a 1st production type like the VF-19A and VF-19C, or a 2nd production type like the VF-19F, VF-19S, and VF-19 Custom.

Model Graphix magazine was the first to depict a (non-canon) VF-19E as a 1st production type back in 2002 as the "VF-19ES Mystery Ship II", a test aircraft used to set the fold speed record.  Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur piled on with own riff in mid-2010, and its VF-19E was the first 2nd production type variant but had a head that looked like Basara's VF-19 Custom.  The first from the official setting was the VF-19EF Caliburn in Macross the Ride in late 2010/early 2011, a monkey model VF-19E that was a 2nd production type VF-19.  Then, of course, came Macross Frontier the Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa and Isamu's cameo in a VF-19 that would later be established to be a VF-19EF retrofitted to look like a 1st production type.  Then, just in case we weren't completely and utterly confused, Macross 30 waded in with a VF-19E that was clearly a 1st production type, and a novelization that muddied the waters by insisting it was a heavily customized VF-19E.

So, of course, the million dollar question is who's the aberration?2  Is the VF-19EF Caliburn a 1st production type upgraded with 2nd production type refinements and then de-upgraded when the EF/A version was made?  Or is the VF-19E from Macross 30 customized to restore the 1st production type appearance the way Isamu's was?

The one thing we can say for certain is Master File's VF-19E is wrong.  Macross Chronicle indicates that Basara's VF-19 Custom was customized from a VF-19F3 rather than a VF-19E.

We've yet to see a VF-19E that isn't either implied or explicitly stated to be customized in some way, so we have very little idea what its true capabilities are... or even what its true appearance is.

 

Apart from appearance, the main traits distinguishing the VF-19A and VF-19C from the later VF-19F and VF-19S are:

  • Structural and aerodynamic simplification intended to improve controllability and improve the airframe's durability.
  • Airframe control system software enhancements intended to improve controllability.
  • Changed design focus to space operations, resulting in the abolishment of some aerodynamic control devices like the canards, exchanging some onboard hardware for versions which have better performance in space, changing the wing shape, and replacing individual verniers in a few locations with a more efficient vernier ring on the engine nacelle.
  • Improved engines with more stable performance and greater output than the initial FF-2200 series.

 

The VF-19EF and VF-19EFs Caliburn made the following changes to the VF-19F and VF-19S type:

  • Structural and aerodynamic redesign to restore some atmospheric performance, including the restoration of canards and a redesigned main wing.  (Some units had additional structural reinforcement installed to let them use the GU-17.)
  • Limiters installed in several components to reduce performance to arms export restriction-compliant levels.
  • Exchanged the engines of the F and S variants for the FF-2550E engine which has somewhat reduced output.
  • Installed EX-Gear control systems to evaluate the technology for use in the YF-25.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Looking at the Bandai Toy, the only visual difference between the VF-19A/B/C/D and the VF-19 Advance is the way the cockpit opens, other than that it's almost identical. What really are the differences?

Visually?  As far as I can tell, the VF-19EF/A and VF-19E we've seen are identical to the YF-19 and VF-19A/C type.  So much so, in fact, that in Macross 30 the VF-19A and VF-19E are two new color schemes applied to the same CG model used by the YF-19.  The VF-19EF/A probably has an EX-Gear cockpit, but we never see clearly inside the canopy in the movie... the same is likely true of the SMS VF-19E, but it's unconfirmable for the same reason.

 

1. Macross Chronicle (2E) Macross Frontier Movie Mechanic Sheet SMS 03A "VF-19EF/A 'Isamu Special' / VF-25A Messiah".
2. No, it's not me.  I'm the abomination.  That's different.  
3. Macross Chronicle (2E) ALL Mechanic Sheet 02A "VF Masterpieces seen from their Development History: VF-17 / VF-19 / VF-22".

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So the VF-19EF/A is essentially just a cosmetic change with uprated engines? 

Also, Where does the VF-19P fit in?

Also, I'm curious, since you mention that the VF-19EF is a monkey model. What role does the VF-19EF serve in the frontier fleet. I wouldn't think that a NUNS branch would get a monkey model, since it's all NUNS. Now SMS getting a downrated aircraft, or uplifted planetary forces like the Zolans or Ragnans, getting them seems right, but not forces that are part of the NUNS and supposed to have parity.

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1 hour ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

So the VF-19EF/A is essentially just a cosmetic change with uprated engines? 

Also, Where does the VF-19P fit in?

Also, I'm curious, since you mention that the VF-19EF is a monkey model. What role does the VF-19EF serve in the frontier fleet. I wouldn't think that a NUNS branch would get a monkey model, since it's all NUNS. Now SMS getting a downrated aircraft, or uplifted planetary forces like the Zolans or Ragnans, getting them seems right, but not forces that are part of the NUNS and supposed to have parity.

Frontier NUNS would get a monkey model compared to the Federal NUNS (read: Earth) because a colony can't have something as good as the people in charge. That's how things work in the NUNS. It is more obvious post-decentralization but it always happened. You can be sure even the stuff Macross 7 fleet got was less powerful than what the Federal Forces had at the time. This is why it's almost a certainty that the federal VF-24 (or whatever they might move onto later) is a monster of overpowered specs compared to any VF-25, 27, or 31 (with the YF-29 being the only thing to come close).

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

So the VF-19EF/A is essentially just a cosmetic change with uprated engines? 

Mostly.  It's indicated that some parts were exchanged for hardware from the VF-19A, and that the fighter's ARIEL integrated airframe control AI software was deliberately downgraded to the original evaluation build delivered for use on the YF-19-3.  You could argue that a fair amount of what was done actually constitutes downgrades, albeit ones made with the very specific goal of stripping out the various refinements made for the production models that sacrificed the punishingly unforgiving handling and the resulting excessive agility in favor of greater ease of control.

(Essentially, Isamu had Dr. Neumann's team at Shinsei rebuild a VF-19 into the state that killed its widespread adoption by the New UN Forces stone dead... the fighter with such agility that only an exceptional ace pilot could handle it.1)

 

Quote

Also, Where does the VF-19P fit in?

The VF-19P was a monkey model variant derived from the VF-19F2 that was intended for export to emigrant forces and allied powers like the Zolan government.  On paper, at least, it's supposedly a "enhanced fixed armaments" model sporting a redesigned monitor turret with a better sensor suite and two additional anti-aircraft laser cannons and the ordnance bays replaced by two micro-missile launchers.  In practical terms it's a downgraded model with lower performance.

 

Quote

Also, I'm curious, since you mention that the VF-19EF is a monkey model. What role does the VF-19EF serve in the frontier fleet. I wouldn't think that a NUNS branch would get a monkey model, since it's all NUNS.

The VF-19EF is used as a Special Forces VF in the Macross Frontier fleet NUNS, since its performance exceeds that of the VF-171 Nightmare Plus.  It's used by a Special Forces unit called Round Table, as well as serving as a field test aircraft for technologies going into the YF-25.

It's worth remembering that the Frontier New UN Spacy is a local defense force under the direction of the Macross Frontier fleet government.  Barring Macross VF-X2 and Macross 30, we haven't really seen the REAL New UN Forces in a Macross series... the ones who operate under the direct authority of the actual New UN Government.  What we've been seeing in Macross 7Macross FrontierMacross Delta, and so on have been the local defense forces of a given emigrant fleet or planetary government that're operating under the auspices of the New UN Government.  

It's hard to come up with a good real-world analogy to explain the relationship.  The local New UN Forces are kind of like a National Guard reserve.  They're nominally part of the New UN Forces but they mainly operate in and around the state that founded and maintains them, answering to state-level authority as well as the federal New UN Government and New UN Forces.  They can even be activated by the New UN Government and sent to reinforce other state-level forces, or the federal New UN Forces.  The analogy breaks down a bit on the point that each local government basically has a free hand in deciding how to equip and organize its local defense forces.  When you include that part, it's a lot more like how the proposed European Union Army would work by having all of their various national militaries operating together under the direction of a supranational military.

 

 

So... given that each of these emigrant fleet and planetary governments is a semi-autonomous New UN Government member nation, and that these nation-states do sometimes let their conflicts get to the level of actual warfare, it makes a certain amount of sense that the New UN Government would want the federal-level forces overseeing all these local militaries to have better gear.  Hence all the monkey models.

Isamu and Guld's little stunt in 2040 was apparently the straw that broke the camel's back, scaring the New UN Government enough to start seriously restricting arms exports to the various emigrant governments.  Limitations were imposed on the numbers of some types of craft that the emigrants could deploy, exports of some technologies were restricted, and locally built versions of the federal forces mecha had mandated limitations on certain aspects of performance.  It's very likely that the only VF-19 we've seen that wasn't a monkey model was Aegis Focker's VF-19A.  All of the 5th Gen VFs in Macross Frontier and Macross Delta save perhaps for the Sv-262 are based on what was by any rational standard a monkey model spec3 for the YF-24 Evolution's final prototype.

 

 

 

1. Per Great Mechanics DX.9, one of the key factors that resulted in the New UN Forces halting plans to adopt the VF-19 Excalibur was the control problem... the aircraft's difficult handling resulted in many pilots losing control of the aircraft in training exercises.  Other factors included fears of advanced weapons falling into the hands of anti-government forces after the YF-19-2 independently penetrated Earth's orbital defenses, and the enormous per-unit cost.

2. Canonically, per Macross Chronicle ALL Mechanic Sheet 01B.  Variable Fighter Master File claims it's a derivative of the VF-19E instead.

3. The version of the YF-24 Evolution spec that was shared to the emigrant fleet and planetary governments had a number of technologies that were withheld by the New UN Government and federal New UN Forces.  Consequently, if they were to build a VF-24 based on those plans, their VF-24 would have lower performance than the federal VF-24, ensuring the federal forces would have superior military capability.  This has also been observed to work in reverse, with the federal forces applying their superior technology to new designs produced by emigrant governments, producing superior versions of their fighters (e.g. Havamal's YF-29B Percival from Macross 30).

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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How did Isamu get Neumann to do that, anyway? Guilt trip over Neumann almost shooting him? “Hey, pal, for old time’s sake...”

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38 minutes ago, Sildani said:

How did Isamu get Neumann to do that, anyway? Guilt trip over Neumann almost shooting him? “Hey, pal, for old time’s sake...”

According to Macross Chronicle, Isamu originally tried to twist Jan's arm into selling him VF-19 parts under the table... the Shinsei VF-19ADVANCE program that created the VF-19EF/A was Jan's counteroffer, it was written off as a test aircraft to evaluate service life extension possibilities for the VF-19 and paid for with Isamu's life savings.

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"Hey, Neumann, buddy! Wanna commit treason with me, for old time's sake?"

"How about no."

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Wait, how does the VF-19F and VF-19S come into play? If the stunt that Isamu and Guld did in 2040 restricted the arms sales, are the F and S Excaliburs in Macross 7 Monkey Models as well?

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1 hour ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Wait, how does the VF-19F and VF-19S come into play? If the stunt that Isamu and Guld did in 2040 restricted the arms sales, are the F and S Excaliburs in Macross 7 Monkey Models as well?

The -F and -S were geared more for space operations rather than atmospheric, hence the stubby wings, lack of canards, and more vernier thrusters.

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1 hour ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Wait, how does the VF-19F and VF-19S come into play? If the stunt that Isamu and Guld did in 2040 restricted the arms sales, are the F and S Excaliburs in Macross 7 Monkey Models as well?

Yes, because the ones we saw were the ones produced for Macross 7, an emigrant fleet government. As Seto explained, they will get lower technology versions of anything Federal is capable of having.

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13 hours ago, JB0 said:

"Hey, Neumann, buddy! Wanna commit treason with me, for old time's sake?"

"How about no."

Oh, to be a fly on the wall during that little conversation...

 

3 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

Wait, how does the VF-19F and VF-19S come into play? If the stunt that Isamu and Guld did in 2040 restricted the arms sales, are the F and S Excaliburs in Macross 7 Monkey Models as well?

It's highly probable.  The three VF-19s issued to Emerald Force were built locally by the fleet's own Three Star Heavy Industries factory ship after the restrictions were put in place.  The one lingering question there would be what systems of the Macross 7 fleet's VF-19s had limiters added so they'd be compliant with the restrictions.

(My money's on target acquisition, the same way the VF-19P was hobbled.)

 

2 hours ago, Devil 505 said:

The -F and -S were geared more for space operations rather than atmospheric, hence the stubby wings, lack of canards, and more vernier thrusters.

Well, "more" vernier thrusters might be a bit debatable... they actually did away with the individual verniers on the engine nacelles in favor of the full circumferential vernier around the "ankle".  This apparently improves propellant efficiency in space, according to Master File, as the thruster ring is able act like a thrust reverser and selectively divert exhaust flow from the engine [instead of/in addition to] drawing fuel itself.

It seems to have been a feature originally developed by General Galaxy for the VF-14 Vampire, and subsequently found its way into the VF-11MAXL, VF-17, and VF-19 2nd production type.  The later VFs seem to have gone back to more traditional individual thrusters, but apparently with more fuel-efficient vernier technology.

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On 10/8/2017 at 2:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

It's highly probable.  The three VF-19s issued to Emerald Force were built locally by the fleet's own Three Star Heavy Industries factory ship after the restrictions were put in place.  The one lingering question there would be what systems of the Macross 7 fleet's VF-19s had limiters added so they'd be compliant with the restrictions.

(My money's on target acquisition, the same way the VF-19P was hobbled.)

I'd expect that it is a combination of downrated engines, less advanced avionics, and targeting systems. 

On 10/8/2017 at 2:11 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, "more" vernier thrusters might be a bit debatable... they actually did away with the individual verniers on the engine nacelles in favor of the full circumferential vernier around the "ankle".  This apparently improves propellant efficiency in space, according to Master File, as the thruster ring is able act like a thrust reverser and selectively divert exhaust flow from the engine [instead of/in addition to] drawing fuel itself.

It seems to have been a feature originally developed by General Galaxy for the VF-14 Vampire, and subsequently found its way into the VF-11MAXL, VF-17, and VF-19 2nd production type.  The later VFs seem to have gone back to more traditional individual thrusters, but apparently with more fuel-efficient vernier technology.

Looking at the VF-171, VF-25, and YF-29, they all have the vernier ring, though in the case of the VF-25 and YF-29, it's split and resides on the foot...

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1 hour ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I'd expect that it is a combination of downrated engines, less advanced avionics, and targeting systems. 

The VF-19F/S has such monstrous engine output for a 4th Generation VF that I rather suspect the engines weren't derated like the ones on the VF-19P were (allegedly in the name of extending cruising range).

 

Quote

Looking at the VF-171, VF-25, and YF-29, they all have the vernier ring, though in the case of the VF-25 and YF-29, it's split and resides on the foot...

The VF-25 and YF-29 lack it, actually.  What they have is just an ordinary thrust reverser.

(It's labeled as "thrust reverser ring" in the diagrams.)

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The VF-19F/S has such monstrous engine output for a 4th Generation VF that I rather suspect the engines weren't derated like the ones on the VF-19P were (allegedly in the name of extending cruising range).

Well, I guess that answers that. The VF-19F/S were 2nd production types, those would have been in federal service too right? They weren't just local variants were they?

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The VF-25 and YF-29 lack it, actually.  What they have is just an ordinary thrust reverser.

(It's labeled as "thrust reverser ring" in the diagrams.)

Huh, so that's what those are. Guess I didn't register that's what those were, since they didn't look like any thrust reversers I'd ever seen. 

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