Harmony Gold suing Tatsunoko

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, HardlyNever said:

Anyhow, my point is that there is very little chance someone could compel HG to actually produce the terms for the public record.

Prior to this renewal, they were forced to present it in court an average of once every four years to prove to the courts that they had an exclusive merchandising rights claim on the original Macross series designs and whomever they were suing didn't.  Give it a few years, they'll sue Hasbro over another Jetfire toy or the owners of BattleTech and MechWarrior'll make ANOTHER attempt to bring the Unseen back, they'll go after ShapeWays or some other 3D Printing firm for making bootleg SDF Macross stuff, or another fan film group, and we'll have a fresh copy of the latest.

Getting them to cough up isn't actually all that hard, since as a licensee they HAVE to present the license in court to prove they have standing to sue if they're filing an infringement suit.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[Bolt]

Oh ya.. listening between the lines, one is definitely left with the impression hg Is quite hostile to fan made endeavors...

 

[M'Kyuun]

And, since they produce relatively nothing of their own, their legal predation is how they stay afloat. So yeah, give it a year or so....

I wonder how Big West feels about the situation. Do they regret giving Tatsunoko those rights years ago, or do they really not care about having a foot in the western market?  I'm sure they didn't see this situation arising back when they used Tatsu to help them complete the animation for SDF:M. I doubt it even raised much concern, if any, when Harmony Gold forged their contract back in the early 80's. It's difficult to project five, let alone thirty, years into the future, and most animation is 'one and done' so far as developing into a long lasting series or a franchise. It's uncommon, and I doubt BW were looking any further than just getting it completed. We have the benefit of hindsight, and it's a tough pill. Still, if they somehow had the clairvoyance in the 80's that HG would become a parasitic licensee holding Macross hostage pretty much everywhere outside of Japan for decades, I wonder if they would have tried to discourage that initial agreement that has become the bane of our fandom?

[Sanity is Optional]

16 hours ago, HardlyNever said:

You can get Hi Metal R and DX Chogokin stuff on US Amazon right now.  You just have to pay (another) middle-man fee.  But they actually have ok deals on HMR stuff, every once and a while.

 I'm supposing you mean Amazon would stock the product locally, in bulk, and bring the prices down to basically Japanese prices.  It could have happened, I'm just skeptical the high-end stuff would be popular enough for them to do that on an on-going basis.  But they trial things like that, so maybe it would have worked out.  But we'd only be saving $5-10 dollars on a $200 product.  The supply could possibly increase, though, which could be great.

 Like you said, it is all academic at this point.  And I'm all for hating on HG.  I just don't think our hobby would have changed that much, had things worked out the way we wanted.  It would have just made the media more accessible, at least legally.

The big difference, honestly, would have been production volumes that take into account overseas sales volumes.

[Seto Kaiba]

21 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Oh ya.. listening between the lines, one is definitely left with the impression hg Is quite hostile to fan made endeavors...

... given that they were torpedoing fan films before it was cool?  Yeah.  

Spoiler

Funny enough, I got the inside scoop on the whole affair thanks to none other than MEMO1DOMINION, who reportedly tried to convince one of the fan film groups Harmony Gold hit with Cease and Desists that I had either sent the Cease and Desist myself under false pretenses or that I had somehow pulled strings at Harmony Gold to make it happen.  They were... "unconvinced" would be putting it mildly... and politely sought me out to tell me the BS he was spreading in an attempt to convince them to file a spurious lawsuit against me.

Originally, HG was tentatively friendly to the idea of fan-films and wanted to host them on their own website... but subject to the terms of the Robotech.com fanworks agreement.  That would have forced anyone working on a fan film to surrender ALL rights to their work in perpetuity and give Harmony Gold unlimited permission to commercialize their work with zero compensation.  Naturally the fan groups balked, so HG started not only sending them Cease and Desists but filing both legitimate and fraudulent copyright claims against the works of the fan film groups on DeviantArt... including the Star Trek fan art and original works of a professional artist working for the National Museum of Serbia.  (DeviantArt apparently didn't actually check to see that the party filing the claim had grounds to do so.)

Robotech: Valkyrie Project was apparently (according to HG's own depositions in court) spiked on unrelated grounds pertaining to its use of Macross designs, and Harmony Gold alleged that the order to shut it down came from Tatsunoko rather than them (and that Tatsunoko was leaning on them on Big West's behalf).

 

 

[HardlyNever]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Prior to this renewal, they were forced to present it in court an average of once every four years to prove to the courts that they had an exclusive merchandising rights claim on the original Macross series designs and whomever they were suing didn't.

Could be, but four years is a pretty long time...  We were all getting hyped on a expiration date that was 2 years away, and that seemed like forever.  4 years to read some updated licensing agreement seems pretty dull.  I guess this is a case where we should just forget about it for a while.

Who wants to take one for the team and force their hand earlier?  Maybe do a fan-made Macross interactive adventure game! 

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, HardlyNever said:

Could be, but four years is a pretty long time...  We were all getting hyped on a expiration date that was 2 years away, and that seemed like forever.  4 years to read some updated licensing agreement seems pretty dull.  I guess this is a case where we should just forget about it for a while.

Well, in the meantime, you'll have plenty of translations to read to tide you over?

[Chronocidal]

5 hours ago, Sanity is Optional said:

The big difference, honestly, would have been production volumes that take into account overseas sales volumes.

So.. I don't want to be the downer here, but keep in mind, regardless of whether they can legally sell here or not, the production numbers are still determined by Bandai, and they are under no obligation to sell their wares in other markets, regardless of how profitable it might be.

Bandai has a long and extremely irritating history of leaving money on the table by just flat out not producing enough to meet demand.  They have fine tuned their production numbers to efficiently use what production capacity they have, and a suddenly larger market does not mean they will be able to turn around and produce for it overnight.

You notice I didn't mention Arcadia here.. because they seem to have absolutely zero problem producing to meet demand, and buying any of their Macross merchandise is really no more difficult than buying something from Amazon at your leisure.  I don't expect that to change regardless of the situation with HG.

[eXis10z]

So apparently China ruled in favor of Big West over Harmony Gold. Here is the documentation recognizing Big West as the IP/trademark holder of Macross.

https://www.wipo.int/documentaccess/documentAccess?docid=1244980501

[Chronocidal]

Oh, now that sounds interesting indeed.  I'm curious what effect that might have, if any.  HG may or may not be losing a fairly big market in China, but I'd be interested to see how that affects their overseas production of toys/collectibles/junk.

Will Kitz Concept be able to continue manufacturing Macross goods under the Robotech label, or will they be having their products overseen/seized by Big West?

Edit: I can't make heads or tails of that document, though.  Seems to call out trademarks for symbols or logos used on sleep masks?  

Edited July 10, 2019 by Chronocidal

[azrael]

1 hour ago, eXis10z said:

So apparently China ruled in favor of Big West over Harmony Gold. Here is the documentation recognizing Big West as the IP/trademark holder of Macross.

https://www.wipo.int/documentaccess/documentAccess?docid=1244980501

They tried that a long time ago and were shot down.

Harmony Gold's trademark request for "Macross" in Japan and Asia - Denied

Issued: 1-24-2004

http://shohyo.shinke...?number=1088731

http://shohyo.shinke...?number=1088733

[Graham]

1 hour ago, eXis10z said:

So apparently China ruled in favor of Big West over Harmony Gold. Here is the documentation recognizing Big West as the IP/trademark holder of Macross.

https://www.wipo.int/documentaccess/documentAccess?docid=1244980501

I don't see any mention of Harmony Gold or Macross in that document.

[Bolt]

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, in the meantime, you'll have plenty of translations to read to tide you over?

Yes, yes!

2 hours ago, eXis10z said:

So apparently China ruled in favor of Big West over Harmony Gold. Here is the documentation recognizing Big West as the IP/trademark holder of Macross.

Funny you mention that. KM made a point to say his friend in China (who ever they are..) had text him to say Macross fans(in China) were exploding (on social media) . Presumably over this news. The way he said it sounded as if they were all celebrating this announcement. When I heard him mention that , I had to replay that part. Partly because It was such a bad connection they had over the course of the entire phone interview and partly because I was trying to understand what he meant.( This was brought up by Kevin in the context of one of the live comments mentioning that RT hadn’t previously been on social media much, until this announcement..)

[Chronocidal]

I'm going to wait for any kind of official anything before getting hopes/disappointments up over that, I think.  That's just so vague and lacking in context or details, that I have no idea whether it means folks in China were celebrating Robotech, or celebrating for Macross.

[Einherjar]

Sorry Bolt, the more instances you mention from the stream, the less convinced I am that any of this was really newsworthy.  It's just the same mind games that these people have been playing to string fans along for many, many, many years at this point.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Einherjar

[JB0]

I will assume that they aren't lying outright about the 35-year license extension. Because that could get them in REAL trouble as opposed to just laughed off the internet while people petition Kickstarter for a refund(and Kickstarter laughs at everyone).

I will also assume they are being less than completely honest, because when have they ever been? I further assume that the omitted parts are bad news for Robotech, because when have they not been?

Obviously, I am not a lawyer and have no access to The Document. But this ain't my first rodeo, if you know what I'm sayin'. I have basic pattern recognition skills, I wasn't born yesterday.

Therefore, I conclude the new license is more restrictive than the original one was, and that Tatsunoko likely has an escape clause in it so they can terminate it early if Harmony Gold continues acting like Harmony Gold.

 

 

I'd like to think this is a blanket prohibition against making false copyright claims, upsetting Big West enough to sue Tatsunoko, and outright lying about the franchise's current activity and future prospects(or at least against lying to Tatsunoko). This likely bodes ill for a company that has no real interest in the license beyond creating the illusion of a functional animation division instead of an office of tax fraud that they use mostly to launder real estate profits.

...

More likely and less dreams of puppies and rainbows, any future legal costs Tatsunoko incurs because of Harmony Gold's foolishness are going to be on Harmony Gold's head, no arbitration or lawsuits required.

Edited July 10, 2019 by JB0

[Gerli]

6 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Oh, now that sounds interesting indeed.  I'm curious what effect that might have, if any. 

No Robotech movie in China is a big NO NO for Hollywood.... the few investors that left in the project are fleeing right now with this news

[sketchley]

20 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

I wonder how Big West feels about the situation. Do they regret giving Tatsunoko those rights years ago, or do they really not care about having a foot in the western market?  (...)

The short answer: both.

They had to sell the rights to get it financed (regret)*, and just like most every other anime production companies, they aren't concerned with the Western market (it's not so much that they don't care, it's just that the overseas market is a whole bunch of added costs that their company size (and budget) can't justify.

Nevertheless, it appears that the current system is kind of working: add English subs to the official domestic releases, and let 3rd parties ship those internationally.  Perhaps if the overseas fans bought more of those (and I mean in volumes that effect the production cost per unit), then they'll definitely be concerned with the overseas market**.

 

* This is just like James Cameron and the original Terminator.

** I humbly recommend putting yourself in their shoes.  The domestic market is several orders of magnitude larger then the overseas market.  For them, dividing it into "Asian" , "Western" and other markets is like dividing hairs...

[HardlyNever]

3 hours ago, JB0 said:

I will assume that they aren't lying outright about the 35-year license extension. Because that could get them in REAL trouble as opposed to just laughed off the internet while people petition Kickstarter for a refund(and Kickstarter laughs at everyone).

I will also assume they are being less than completely honest, because when have they ever been? I further assume that the omitted parts are bad news for Robotech, because when have they not been?

Obviously, I am not a lawyer and have no access to The Document. But this ain't my first rodeo, if you know what I'm sayin'. I have basic pattern recognition skills, I wasn't born yesterday.

Therefore, I conclude the new license is more restrictive than the original one was, and that Tatsunoko likely has an escape clause in it so they can terminate it early if Harmony Gold continues acting like Harmony Gold.

Sums up my thoughts at this point.  HG definitely lies about some things, and I definitely don't trust them, but to outright fabricate a license extension is a stretch, even for them.  Unless this is some big endgame scheme (unlikely, unfortunately), where the entire company implodes and everyone runs out with whatever they can get their hands on, I don't think they are making this up.

But I do think the license might be more restrictive.  We'll just have to wait until they have to produce it (or like I mentioned above, someone in Japan might be able to get it before that) and read it for ourselves to get the details. 

[moose]

So I am just curious if they ever do get around to making that Robotech movie, the director was recently attached to the Flash movie, can they use the original mech designs and if so can they make toys?

If they can it might be in both their interests to reach an agreement to not lose out on potential merchandise sales. 

Of course I dont recall movies like Pacific rim making a ton of toys , but still you know that's what the are planning with that Gundam live action movie in the works.

[jenius]

2 hours ago, Gerli said:

No Robotech movie in China is a big NO NO for Hollywood.... the few investors that left in the project are fleeing right now with this news

I think you misunderstood what the proposed Robotech movie would be. It was never going to be Macross the Movie. This would have zero impact on the proposed Robotech movie that will only use names unique to Robotech, have all new Mecha, and have a story line that only touched on a few elements from Robotech. Sony was planning on making a generic scifi Mecha movie and calling it Robotech.

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, jenius said:

I think you misunderstood what the proposed Robotech movie would be. It was never going to be Macross the Movie. This would have zero impact on the proposed Robotech movie that will only use names unique to Robotech, have all new Mecha, and have a story line that only touched on a few elements from Robotech. Sony was planning on making a generic scifi Mecha movie and calling it Robotech.

Let's not put that evil on Sony... there is precisely zero evidence that Sony intends to do ANYTHING with the Robotech license they have, like Warner Bros before them.

The rest is essentially accurate, but is also one of the strongest arguments that the Robotech movie will never be made.  Why would Sony create an all-new, all-original SF/mecha action movie on their own dime and then arbitrarily decide to pay Harmony Gold royalties for contributing nothing but the title of an obscure TV show from the 1980s?  They could easily just call the exact same movie something else and keep all the money for themselves.

[moose]

Just now, jenius said:

I think you misunderstood what the proposed Robotech movie would be. It was never going to be Macross the Movie. This would have zero impact on the proposed Robotech movie that will only use names unique to Robotech, have all new Mecha, and have a story line that only touched on a few elements from Robotech. Sony was planning on making a generic scifi Mecha movie and calling it Robotech.

So they cant use the original mech designs nocan they adapt the story ?  What a joke.

Well my hope rests in Gundam then !

[Bolt]

5 hours ago, Einherjar said:

Sorry Bolt, the more instances you mention from the stream, the less convinced I am that any of this was really newsworthy.  It's just the same mind games that these people have been playing to string fans along for many, many, many years at this point.

Bear in mind I originally said after a 2 hour phone interview,  the only info I got was a new Ben action figure and a new role playing game(not worth mentioning to me)..everything else I’ve mentioned is KM blabing on enthusiastically without any real content to speak of. Yes, Sony was mentioned too. (You can go through the whole 2 hours and pluck many turds out to quote..

Edited July 10, 2019 by Bolt

[Seto Kaiba]

22 minutes ago, moose said:

So they cant use the original mech designs nocan they adapt the story ?  What a joke.

They were always off the table, Big West owns the IP of SDF Macross.

That's why Harmony Gold had to change the character designs for Robotech II: the Sentinels, and later kill off all the Macross characters they had left save one who got totally redesigned to avoid a lawsuit.

 

22 minutes ago, moose said:

Well my hope rests in Gundam then !

I'm not gonna get my hopes up there, but Sunrise is apparently a codevelopment partner in that film so at least it hopefully won't look terrible.

[Einherjar]

4 hours ago, Bolt said:

Bear in mind I originally said after a 2 hour phone interview,  the only info I got was a new Ben action figure and a new role playing game(not worth mentioning to me)..everything else I’ve mentioned is KM blabing on enthusiastically without any real content to speak of. Yes, Sony was mentioned too. (You can go through the whole 2 hours and pluck many turds out to quote..

I stopped taking it seriously after the Kickstarters and lost a weekend picking the habit up again.  This is a younger generation’s problem to gloat/cry/laugh about, and after the garbage that’s come up in the last few years they deserve what’s coming.

[peter]

5 hours ago, jenius said:

I think you misunderstood what the proposed Robotech movie would be. It was never going to be Macross the Movie. This would have zero impact on the proposed Robotech movie that will only use names unique to Robotech, have all new Mecha, and have a story line that only touched on a few elements from Robotech. Sony was planning on making a generic scifi Mecha movie and calling it Robotech.

Maybe they can base their movie off that sweet Robotech comic....designs are different enough that they might be able to get away with it.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, peter said:

Maybe they can base their movie off that sweet Robotech comic....designs are different enough that they might be able to get away with it.

The comic's not-a-VF-1 design was, by the admission of the artist Titan stole it from, based directly on Macross's VF-0 Phoenix.  

In short, it would make a copyright infringement lawsuit from Big West a slam dunk summary judgement against Sony.  (Big West seems to have not been aware of that fact, or they'd likely have sued Titan.)

[jenius]

6 minutes ago, peter said:

Maybe they can base their movie off that sweet Robotech comic....designs are different enough that they might be able to get away with it.

HG has always used the 'merchandising' ability of their license as an ability to infringe on BW's IP (video games and comics). Since they've gotten away with it this long, there's nothing BW can do to stop them. That said, a movie is definitely NOT merchandising to support the original animation so even that wonky new comic series hits too close to home to serve much basis for a movie.

It all makes sense anyway, why would the world's first transformable fighter jet be based on an F-14? No, if Sony made a movie, the VF-1 will look either super futuristic like nothing we have today OR like a futuristic F-35. Chances are it would have a Bayformers transformation to it BUT, since HG has access to Mospeada without a hiccup, they could call the first transformable fighter the "Alpha" and make it a transformable F-35 that uses a transformation much closer to the Legioss. 

I think it's funny just how bad Robotech's story is if you step away from it, and how it could have been a lot cleaner if it were its own beast instead of a smashing together of three separate shows, and yet people seem to be bummed by the idea a movie wouldn't be faithful to it. 

[JetJockey]

I just read about the renewal and thought it was a bad joke. I see you guys here didn't make a new topic for it either.

Reading more about it, I was hoping that at least there would be a Robotech Blu-ray announcement but we didn't even get that. The guy that I guess runs Harmony Gold is smiling like the bad guy that just won.

I haven't read everything here but I assume that the suits are just looking forward to the potential revenue from the Robotech live action movie?

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, JetJockey said:

I just read about the renewal and thought it was a bad joke. I see you guys here didn't make a new topic for it either.

That'd be my fault, I guess... since many of us were hoping or suspecting that the litigation between Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold was going to be the death of their efforts to renew and keep their dead-end brand going, I just posted the news here.  The litigation does appear to have been related to the renewal, though we had it backwards... Tatsunoko held that license renewal hostage until Harmony Gold agreed to drop its lawsuit against them for refusing to pay Harmony Gold's court costs and attorney fees as ordered to during the earlier arbitration and the amount owed itself.

 

13 hours ago, JetJockey said:

Reading more about it, I was hoping that at least there would be a Robotech Blu-ray announcement but we didn't even get that. The guy that I guess runs Harmony Gold is smiling like the bad guy that just won.

That announcement seems unlikely to ever come... remastering is expensive, and there just aren't enough Robotech fans for them to be assured of a decent ROI on the effort.  Plus the entire Robotech fanbase still hasn't stopped giving them sh*t for changing the sound effects when they piggybacked on ADV Films's remastering of Macross, Southern Cross, and MOSPEADA.  (Once bitten, twice shy I suppose.)

 

13 hours ago, JetJockey said:

I haven't read everything here but I assume that the suits are just looking forward to the potential revenue from the Robotech live action movie?

After twelve years, I doubt even they seriously expect the movie to be made.  They're just looking forward to continuing to collect checks until Sony decides it's no longer worth what they're paying, and lets the rights go.  Likewise, they still seem to be holding out hope that they can frustrate Big West into licensing their trademarks on Macross's title in order to sell here in the states.

[M'Kyuun]

Much like Tatsunoko, I'm sure there's no love lost between BW and HG. I hope BW never buckles to them- they seem to be on good enough financial footing to continue flying the f#ck you flag, and I hope they continue to do so into perpetuity. Nothing good comes from rewarding bad behavior.

I still wonder how this company is able to get away with this kind of shady activity. At the very least, it seems an infringement of monopoly law, and worst, it's basically holding a license in limbo for the purpose of predatory litigation. Seems to me that there would be corporate laws to deal with that situation, especially when it's a third party IP. From what I understand, they have some shady real estate dealings as well. Why are they not under investigation? If the Feds had been putting the whammy on Harmony Gold, thus ridding the planet of an insidious evil instead of chasing down potential Russian colluders, the world would be that much closer to utopia. 

I was so hoping Tatsunoko would deny HG the license, and then BW, Bandai, whoever, would swoop in and drop an enormous steaming legal turd on them, thus crushing the parasitic f#cks asunder. It's a very disappointing turn of events. If only BW and Tastsu could learn to play nice, the West and most of Europe might have a chance of finally enjoying the entirety of Macross without resorting to Asian e-tailers for pretty much everything. 

[jenius]

Frank Agama had been investigated and even found guilty of some misbehaviour but for the most part he operated when people were less savvy about media rights which allowed him to take advantage and score some huge wins. HG isn't really breaking laws, they were taking advantage of awfully written contracts (what they have always done) and the recent spat of lawsuits help draw boundaries where they had previously been refuted.

[Bolt]

18 hours ago, JetJockey said:

I haven't read everything here but I assume that the suits are just looking forward to the potential revenue from the Robotech live action movie?

If I understand correctly, hg is collecting revenues from licensing to toy manufacturers, comics and role playing games, etc. The movie is looking to be locked in limbo based on what’s already been discussed. But it could still happen , as Bayformers made enough money to make all the other studios sit up and pay attention..

[M'Kyuun]

2 hours ago, Bolt said:

If I understand correctly, hg is collecting revenues from licensing to toy manufacturers, comics and role playing games, etc. The movie is looking to be locked in limbo based on what’s already been discussed. But it could still happen , as Bayformers made enough money to make all the other studios sit up and pay attention..

Even so, with all the legal limitations they'd be working under, it'd be Robotech in name only so far as the Macross part of it goes. I don't know what if any limitations they have regarding Mospeada or Southern Cross. I suppose they could use the Legioss in lieu of the VF-1, but that'd be weird. Anyway, I think they'd make a movie that no one save the most die hard RT fans would like, and it'd essentially tank and leave them in irrevocable debt.  In light of this argument, I think they should go for it!