Harmony Gold suing Tatsunoko

[cjcastan]

3 minutes ago, HardlyNever said:

Posted a shorter video in a different thread, I'll repost here:

Sounds like the Macross license goes back to Tatsunoko in 2021, and it is up to them what they do with it.  Hopefully they will stay far away from HG with it.  What that means for the continued existence of the Robotech license is, I have no idea.

I'd love to see genuine Macross stuff in the US, though.

Everything is so fluid now, but if Tats goes back on the open market, you gotta believe amazon, Netflix, Sony/Funi will be lining up and with more cash than HG

[sh9000]

3 years and 7 months to go!

[seti88]

On 20 August 2017 at 1:40 AM, seti88 said:

Probably a money grab, but they ought to be quite certain they can get something, are there still legal arguments to be made against tatsunoko?

Also does anyone know if there an expiry to the distribution license that HG holds? 

So it's March 14th 2021!! wait... so is it March 15th that hikaru appears in a skirt to yell FREEDOM? 

Tatsu had better revoke it then or else!!!

Please Sony, wait till then to make a Macross movie!! On second tot, please anyone else besides Sony make a macross movie heheh...

 

Edited August 21, 2017 by seti88

[azrael]

14 minutes ago, seti88 said:

Please Sony, wait till then to make a Macross movie!! On second tot, please anyone else besides Sony make a macross movie heheh...

Considering Hollywood's track record with anime->Live action, no. Please dear god, no.

[Brand]

According to a detail in the various court documents the attorney is going through in the video, Columbia Pictures currently has an option on a live-action adaptation from HG. Warner Brothers' option in 2007, also mentioned, came to nothing, so I'm betting this one won't either, though as I said earlier, HG seems pretty hot-to-trot on confirming their right to make a live-action adaptation in those documents, so maybe the talks are stronger this time. Hopefully not.

[seti88]

Haha I enjoyed GITS but point duly noted. And on the flip side, m also for any macross movie that would bring the inevitable merchandising that follows..need more chances for some pilot figurarts!

[azrael]

34 minutes ago, Brand said:

According to a detail in the various court documents the attorney is going through in the video, Columbia Pictures currently has an option on a live-action adaptation from HG. ...

Columbia Pictures = Sony.

[kajnrig]

1 hour ago, azrael said:

Considering Hollywood's track record with anime->Live action, no. Please dear god, no.

Oh I dunno, Pacific Rim was excellent.

...what?

[Gerli]

2 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Oh I dunno, Pacific Rim was excellent.

...what?

Edge of Tomorrow was an ok adaptation too.

[Chronocidal]

So, I'm looking over this, and trying to come up with the TLDR version to explain to some friends, so let me see if I have the gist of the situation correctly.

1. Old history - Tatsunoko gave HG the license to animation, and HG claimed ownership of a lot more than that, etc. etc, which is beside the point for this particular issue.

2. Mid 90s - Big West and Tatsunoko were legally engaged over licensing issues, some of which included the rights HG purchased for Robotech, and the rights FASA purchased for MechWarrior designs.  If I understand correctly, Tatsunoko was trying to legally defend its actions in those license deals? (I'm iffy on this, and need to re-read.)  So the impression I've gathered is that these legal proceedings were technically in defense of the licenses HG claims give them ownership of everything associated with Robotech.

3. Recently - Tatsunoko finally decided to request financial assistance from HG for all the legal fees incurred trying to defend the licenses that HG has been milking.  HG counter-sues, and the arbitration is basically that HG is actually owed money from Tatsunoko for the cost of the arbitration proceedings.

So, HG essentially just spat in the face of the only company that could renew their license come the expiration in March of 2021.

My understanding right now is that, even if the original license was flawed, and HG shouldn't have claimed ownership of what they did, it'll all be moot anyway if the license outright expires.

Did I miss any key points there? 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Chronocidal

[JB0]

Wet blanket time!

Even if HG loses the license and Robotech dies, we still have to wait for their trademark on the Macross name to fizzle out, because that is independent of licensing(and was filed out of spite; but that's irrelevant).

[cjcastan]

11 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Wet blanket time!

Even if HG loses the license and Robotech dies, we still have to wait for their trademark on the Macross name to fizzle out, because that is independent of licensing(and was filed out of spite; but that's irrelevant).

I thought I read somewhere, if HG loses the license, then their  patents on the names and the UN Spacy kite go away because they have no reasonable claim to them. I could be mistaken but I thought I read that somewhere

[Dynaman]

45 minutes ago, cjcastan said:

I thought I read somewhere, if HG loses the license, then their  patents on the names and the UN Spacy kite go away because they have no reasonable claim to them. I could be mistaken but I thought I read that somewhere

I'm sure it is a lot more complicated than that and will be decided in court.

[cjcastan]

 

looks like bw has been making moves.

[azrael]

2 minutes ago, cjcastan said:

 

looks like bw has been making moves.

That's just trademarking Macross Delta in other countries.

[HardlyNever]

1 hour ago, cjcastan said:

I thought I read somewhere, if HG loses the license, then their  patents on the names and the UN Spacy kite go away because they have no reasonable claim to them. I could be mistaken but I thought I read that somewhere

Not a lawyer, but I'd say theoretically yes.  Unfortunately, patent and license trolling/squating is still very much a thing in the US, and you could argue HG are masters at it.

So like Dynaman said, there is probably a lot that still has to go through courts (especially when HG is involved...).

Edited August 22, 2017 by HardlyNever

[HardlyNever]

2 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

So, I'm looking over this, and trying to come up with the TLDR version to explain to some friends, so let me see if I have the gist of the situation correctly.

1. Old history - Tatsunoko gave HG the license to animation, and HG claimed ownership of a lot more than that, etc. etc, which is beside the point for this particular issue.

2. Mid 90s - Big West and Tatsunoko were legally engaged over licensing issues, some of which included the rights HG purchased for Robotech, and the rights FASA purchased for MechWarrior designs.  If I understand correctly, Tatsunoko was trying to legally defend its actions in those license deals? (I'm iffy on this, and need to re-read.)  So the impression I've gathered is that these legal proceedings were technically in defense of the licenses HG claims give them ownership of everything associated with Robotech.

3. Recently - Tatsunoko finally decided to request financial assistance from HG for all the legal fees incurred trying to defend the licenses that HG has been milking.  HG counter-sues, and the arbitration is basically that HG is actually owed money from Tatsunoko for the cost of the arbitration proceedings.

So, HG essentially just spat in the face of the only company that could renew their license come the expiration in March of 2021.

My understanding right now is that, even if the original license was flawed, and HG shouldn't have claimed ownership of what they did, it'll all be moot anyway if the license outright expires.

Did I miss any key points there? 

This seems correct to me.  I've been researching this on my own, and it is definitely a complete mess.  I think the 90s litigation was a big loss for Tatsunoko, as they basically handed over way more rights to HG than they ever intended, and didn't really get much money for it.  But they were defending themselves from BW, and in so doing helped HG secure their rights to all Macross stuff.  I bet Tatsu lost a lot of money over the years having to be tethered to the 2nd rate Robotech franchise, when it could have been making money (in some fashion) through Macross stuff internationally.

There was also some litigation in the early 2000s (2003, I think), but I'm not 100% clear on that.  I think that was between Tatsunoko and BW.

[Einherjar]

I'll wait for something more official than what a YouTube personality has to say about this.  I don't have a good opinion of those kind of people these days.

Edit: I mean the full time 'professional' types making money off it or similar sites.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Einherjar

[Mommar]

15 minutes ago, Einherjar said:

I'll wait for something more official than what a YouTube personality has to say about this.  I don't have a good opinion of those kind of people these days.

Edit: I mean the full time 'professional' types making money off it or similar sites.

Isn't that guy an actual Lawyer though?

[Einherjar]

6 minutes ago, Mommar said:

Isn't that guy an actual Lawyer though?

Yes, but he's also been involved in the video game industry/community online at times.  Ever since the adpocalypse and etc. I've wanted to stay away from a lot of it.

[chyll2]

damn, 2021, the year of easy Bandai DX pre-order

[Sergorn]

13 hours ago, azrael said:

That's just trademarking Macross Delta in other countries.

Not just Macross Delta. They made a demand to trademark *Macross* as a whole for Australia, Russia, Singapour and Vietnam in December 2016 and it's been approved for Australia and Singapour. And they made a demand to trademark MACROSS for Europe in June 2017 AND every latest attempt for Harmony Golds to do Macross related trademarks are being automically disputed. And this also concerns merchandising rights, including videos and streaming exploitation.

Nope something is happening here, it's not "business as usual" as we've known it for all the Macross related rights for the last 20 years.

Crossing fingers something positive comes out of it.

-Sergorn

[Sandman]

Yes! Finally! Hopefully, this is the beginning of the end of HG frakking over Macross.

So if HG loses the licence, what happens to Robotech as a brand. Do the Japanese companies get all the materials. I remember reading that new anime licensees get all the materials (scripts, audio tracks etc) from the previous licensees.

[Sergorn]

I would assume Harmony Gold would keep the "Robotech" brand as they created it to begin with... but they wouldn't be able to use any of the series if they revert back to Japan so basically all they would be able to do would be created something new and totally unrelated under the name Robotech

-Sergorn

[Sandman]

There will be a huge flood of people (not me) trying to get ahold of copies of the DVDs before they vanish .... forever.

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, Sandman said:

So if HG loses the licence, what happens to Robotech as a brand. Do the Japanese companies get all the materials. I remember reading that new anime licensees get all the materials (scripts, audio tracks etc) from the previous licensees.

Now that is an interesting legal question... one I'm not sure it's possible to answer unless we gain some additional insight into Tatsunoko Pro's licensing practices.

Exactly what happens to the licensee contributions in a dub/sub type environment probably varies from license to license, though I would expect a licensee that was about to lose its license with no expectation of future renewal to at least try to sell the rights to its dub or subtitles to either the IP owner or the new licensee.  I doubt there are many licenses drawn up such that the licensee gets compelled to transfer their work to their replacement if the license changes hands, since in typical setups the distributor doing the localization are the copyright holders on the subtitles or the dub's speech audio tracks.

Robotech is an unusual case.  It's not a proper localization, and its ungainly mishmash of its three component shows also contains a number of plot points and set pieces that weren't part of any of the original three shows.  Harmony Gold would, theoretically speaking, retain the copyright on the original concepts they contributed to the show and ownership of the "Robotech" brand should the license they have with Tatsunoko expire.  As a result of losing the distribution and merchandising rights to the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross, and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, they would be unable to continue releasing the Robotech series around the world, including the original works they made which contain Tatsunoko-owned mecha and character designs like Robotech II: the Sentinels, Robotech: the Untold Story, and Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.  Robotech 3000 would be safe, since the aborted trailer had no direct ties with the Japanese animation.  Their licensees would be hosed, since their branded merch would become grey market or unsellable at worst (not that it's particularly sellable now, being largely overpriced trash).  

They should, however, be able to take those uniquely Robotech plot devices and construct a new series around them with no ties to the Japanese shows if they should choose to do so.  They are already trying that, to a certain extent, via the live-action movie proposal which by necessity has to be completely unrecognizable to avoid being sued by Macross's owners for copyright infringement.

[Chronocidal]

I'm actually kind of looking forward to that, in terms of finding out if Robotech can actually stand on its own.  Being deprived of any existing material to fall back on will be nice test of HG to see if they have the capacity to possibly produce something original.

[505thAirborne]

I'd like to see HG actually create something on their very own that doesn't contain some else's work/designs. I'd have respect if they created their own designs, story & title name. Shoot, they didn't even coin the name Robotech, that was from Revell. 

 

[no3Ljm]

I'm listening to that youtube video and looks like I've been pronouncing Macross the wrong way. I heard 'Mac-Ross' and not 'Macross'.

Somehow I preferred saying 'Makurosu' now rather than saying Mac-Ross.

 

[technoblue]

24 minutes ago, no3Ljm said:

I'm listening to that youtube video and looks like I've been pronouncing Macross the wrong way. I heard 'Mac-Ross' and not 'Macross'.

Somehow I preferred saying 'Makurosu' now rather than saying Mac-Ross.

 

 I'm not the only one! Our mad hatter friend must have watched the horrible ADV dub. That's the only explanation I can think of for his pronunciation.

[no3Ljm]

2 hours ago, technoblue said:

 I'm not the only one! Our mad hatter friend must have watched the horrible ADV dub. That's the only explanation I can think of for his pronunciation.

Good to know I'm not the only one too.

 

[JB0]

I think that if HG loses the licenses to the Robotech shows, Robotech as we know it is dead. No one can do anything with it. 

 

The closest example I can think of is the video game Pac-Man Jr. Midway created it while they had the Pac-Man distribution license, which has since reverted to Namco. Right now Midway owns the game, Namco owns the name, and no one can do anything with it.

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

I'm actually kind of looking forward to that, in terms of finding out if Robotech can actually stand on its own.  Being deprived of any existing material to fall back on will be nice test of HG to see if they have the capacity to possibly produce something original.

4 hours ago, 505thAirborne said:

I'd like to see HG actually create something on their very own that doesn't contain some else's work/designs. I'd have respect if they created their own designs, story & title name. Shoot, they didn't even coin the name Robotech, that was from Revell. 

Eh... if this happened thirty years ago it might've had enough steam to keep going as an original property.  Now?  No way.  More than one Robotech project has been sunk by the franchise's own fans for not directly tying into the events of their adaptation of Super Dimension Fortress Macross.  Their one attempt at a totally original feature was so poorly received that it never got past the first teaser trailer before Harmony Gold management canceled it twice to make sure it stayed dead.

[TheLoneWolf]

On 8/21/2017 at 1:23 PM, HardlyNever said:

Posted a shorter video in a different thread, I'll repost here:

 

Leonard French does a pretty good job at summarizing the issues, but he made a few factual mistakes. According to him, Tatsunoko Production "was the original creator of...the original works that lead to Robotech, which were Macross..." and licensed/lost out certain rights to Big West and Harmony Gold. However, this is a gross inaccuracy in regards to The Super Dimension Fortress Macross. In reality, Studio Nue created SDF Macross, with Big West as Studio Nue's primary sponsor. To reiterate, the staff members of Studio Nue planned, designed, wrote, scripted, and directed SDF Macross. This is no secret, just look at the closing credits of SDF Macross and it's all there. Tatsunoko had no creative input over SDF Macross, so crediting them as the show's creator is wrong. All Tatsunoko did was supply the animators to animate roughly half of the series. And even then, Tatsunoko didn't use their own animators, instead farming out the work to their subsidiaries, such as the Korean studio Star Pro. Again, all of this information is in the show's credits sequences.

So how did Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold acquire certain, limited rights to SDF Macross? If you didn't read my old post here, I'll briefly summarize it. Since Big West didn't have the money to pay for Tatsunoko's animators, they gave Tatsunoko a) the right to distribute the show outside of Japan, b) the right the merchandize the show outside of Japan, and c) a portion of the show's local (Japan) merchandising sales. Tatsunoko later licensed a) and b) to Harmony Gold. French appears to be under the impression that these rights were licensed or won by Tatsunoko in court, when in fact, Studio Nue/Big West outright gave these rights to Tatsunoko in 1982. The Japanese court cases from the early 2000's reinforced these three rights, and in addition, gave Tatsunoko the television broadcast rights to SDF Macross in Japan. Obviously, that latter has nothing to do with the rest of the world. And, as we all know, the Japanese courts correctly ruled that Studio Nue and Big West never intended to give Tatsunoko the rights to the designs and story of SDF Macross as payment for Tatsunoko's animators' work.

To French's credit, Harmony Gold's US court filing routinely omit Studio Nue and Big West's contributions to SDF Macross, so it's no surprise that he wasn't aware of their ownership rights. And as he readily admits, it's an already complicated situation. Unfortunately, since French is an attorney, his statements regarding Tatsunoko as the "creator" of SDF Macross will now probably be viewed as canon by the US fandom and cited as such going forward.

[akt_m]

4 hours ago, 505thAirborne said:

I'd like to see HG actually create something on their very own that doesn't contain some else's work/designs. I'd have respect if they created their own designs, story & title name. Shoot, they didn't even coin the name Robotech, that was from Revell. 

 

If someone from HG really had the skills to do it, they would've already done.

Edited August 23, 2017 by akt_m