Macross Δ (Delta) Movie Gekijō no Walkūre (Passionate Walkure)

[Convectuoso]

17 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

If you thought the Macross Delta TV series was good, yes.

If not, no.

Then it's not

[Seto Kaiba]

3 minutes ago, Mommar said:

I'm not clear what that means.

In this context, a compilation movie is a movie made by cutting together existing footage from a TV series or OVA to retell the story of the series in a feature film's 2 hour runtime.  There will usually be new footage made for the film, but the ratio of new to reused footage is usually low.

The Mobile Suit Gundam and Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam movie trilogies are good examples of this, as are the Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex movies.

Macross movies do sometimes reuse footage from the series (e.g. Macross Frontier's duology), but the ratio of new to reused footage has always been astonishingly high.  

Macross Delta's movie is reportedly much closer to a traditional compilation movie, in that half or more is reused footage from the series.

[no3Ljm]

It's safe to assume that Macross Delta made money in Japan, correct? Why don't they just do a 'new' movie of the Delta instead of doing a compilation of the series with added small footages or changes? Just do like the DYRL. It's a retelling of the series with new anime footage. I know budget-wise it's easy to reuse old footages and all. But would it be best to treat fans to a whole new anime instead? I mean, they're still going to change stuff and story, right? Just treat it as a movie then.

 

[Master Dex]

Perhaps it is not entirely based on Delta's own homeland popularity but also the fact another show is in pre-production already and likely taking up a share of studio resources as well. When Frontier movies were happening, it was years before Delta was even a proposal and therefor was able to get all of the attention.

[Seto Kaiba]

30 minutes ago, no3Ljm said:

It's safe to assume that Macross Delta made money in Japan, correct? Why don't they just do a 'new' movie of the Delta instead of doing a compilation of the series with added small footages or changes? [...] I know budget-wise it's easy to reuse old footages and all. But would it be best to treat fans to a whole new anime instead? 

Probably because doing a compilation movie is significantly cheaper than an all-new film, allowing them to do the movie faster with less money and studio manpower.

Japanese audiences are already well-accustomed to compilation movies with a good deal less new footage than Macross Delta: Passionate Walkure has, so they're not likely to care overmuch about not getting an all-original anime film.  The fact that the Macross Delta series itself wasn't really all that remarkable, and served mainly as a vehicle to launch Walkure, would've made it unlikely that they'd do an all-original movie to riff on a barely-there story for the sake of a two-hour AMV.

With a new Macross series already under development, a compilation movie was probably a smart way to go with the remaining manpower.

[davidwhangchoi]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

If you thought the Macross Delta TV series was good, yes.

If not, no.

Word from Japan is that Macross Delta: Passionate Walkure is much closer to being a traditional compilation movie than previous Macross films.

crap i guess it's like the 1st frontier movie. 

maybe the second delta movie will follow suit and be like the 2nd frontier film with less reused animation

[Seto Kaiba]

19 minutes ago, davidwhangchoi said:

maybe the second delta movie will follow suit and be like the 2nd frontier film with less reused animation

Second movie?  I was given to understand by those who'd seen it that this was clearly a One-and-Done affair...

Spoiler

... with the movie having the same ending as the TV series.

 

[davidwhangchoi]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Second movie?  I was given to understand by those who'd seen it that this was clearly a One-and-Done affair...

  Reveal hidden contents

... with the movie having the same ending as the TV series.

 

if that's true then double darn...

[Seto Kaiba]

ANN posted a review... it's decidedly lukewarm:

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/gekijo-ban-macross-delta/gekijo-no-walkure/.127637

 

[Mommar]

It did not read lukewarm to me.

[Sildani]

Me either. The reviewer seemed to enjoy it, what he could understand. 

[Mommar]

Comparing the review on ANN with the speaker podcast they're in agreement.  If you don't like the basic story you won't like the movie either.  Things have been changed, moved around, addressed and dropped apparently all for the better, except for those of us who really like Mirage.  The biggest complaint is if you don't know the story from the show you will be confused in the second half of this movie.  Well, if you don't know the story of SDFM you won't know what the hell is going on from the very beginning of DYRL.  So not really the greatest complaint other than they consistently  haven't been able to make their stories clear in condensed form from the beginning of Macross.  But the movie is fun to watch, the characters are all likeable and get their moments.  It's not perfect but it's watchable and fun and well paced.  For any of us fans who already know the show it'll all make sense.  So a B- overall, according to both the Speaker podcast and ANN, is eminently watchable it's just not groundbreaking.  That's actually amazing considering the source material.

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, Mommar said:

It did not read lukewarm to me.

3 hours ago, Sildani said:

Me either. The reviewer seemed to enjoy it, what he could understand. 

... did y'all skip the parts where the reviewer complained that, even in the first half, the film's story was an unfocused mess that unceremoniously drops plot threads and shifts focus without rhyme or reason?  Or that it became nigh-incomprehensible in the second half, that the climax hinged on a character who the film forgot to develop, that the new animation is spotty and has jarring quality issues, or that the choreography in the idol performances is weak?

If you actually summarize this review, it'd be: "I like the designs, the music, and the mecha action sequences, but the animation has some major issues, the story's a mess, and I had no idea what was going on 90% of the time".  That their overall score for the film was a B-, with the story only meriting a C, argues strongly for that being overall a rather tepid review.  "It wasn't very good, but I had fun regardless".

[Mommar]

30 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... did y'all skip the parts where the reviewer complained that, even in the first half, the film's story was an unfocused mess that unceremoniously drops plot threads and shifts focus without rhyme or reason?  Or that it became nigh-incomprehensible in the second half, that the climax hinged on a character who the film forgot to develop, that the new animation is spotty and has jarring quality issues, or that the choreography in the idol performances is weak?

If you actually summarize this review, it'd be: "I like the designs, the music, and the mecha action sequences, but the animation has some major issues, the story's a mess, and I had no idea what was going on 90% of the time".  That their overall score for the film was a B-, with the story only meriting a C, argues strongly for that being overall a rather tepid review.  "It wasn't very good, but I had fun regardless".

Your summary, maybe.  But you hate everything Delta.  I’m neither for nor against the show.  A B- means it’s enjoyable enough.  Not great, not the worst thing either.  The problems apparently weren’t problem enough or it would have been given a C or a D or worse.  B- isn’t bad.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Mommar

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Mommar said:

Your summary, maybe.  But you hate everything Delta.

An ad hominem?  Seriously?  And not even an accurate one.  I'm not sure if I should put [Citation Needed] or "Very Poor, see me after class".

If you'd actually read my posts about the series, you'd notice that - much like this ANN review - my main issue with the series was that the writing was a sh*t-awful mess.  For pretty much the entire first half of the series, I was one of the show's more vocal defenders in the review threads here on MacrossWorld.  Then the writing went completely to pot and watching the series became a chore.

Go back and read... and you'll find the one criticism I consistently level is that the individual pieces that make up the series are all excellent, and that the writers dropped the ball resulting in a whole frustratingly less than the sum of its parts.  You'll find frequent praise for the main characters (I've often said Freyja compares favorably to Ranka¹), mentions that several songs from the series rank among my all-time favorites from Macross (incl. Our Battlefield and Forbidden Borderline), and my discussions of the mecha have frequently seen me describe the VF-31 as being arguably the best-looking 5th Generation VF so far² and the Sv-262 as a unique and interesting design, and that the both of them are criminally underutilized by the series.

I do not "hate everything Delta".  About the only part of Delta I do hate is the weaksauce writing.

 

 

Quote

I’m neither for nor against the show.  A B- means it’s enjoyable enough.  Not great, not the worst thing either.  The problems apparently weren’t problem enough or it would have been given a C or a D or worse.  B- isn’t bad.

"Enjoyable enough" is pretty subjective.  A B- is only marginally above-average... the reviewer notes multiple, significant, often jarring issues with the film but that it was fast-paced enough to still be enjoyable despite those flaws.  The problems with the story were severe enough that that aspect of the movie DID get a C.

IMO, given that Walkure are indisputably the main characters of this film, that the animation and choreography of their performances are noted as one of the film's main weak points would be a pretty big problem.

 

1. That's actually putting it rather mildly, I've suggested several times that replacing Ranka with Freyja and giving Alto some of Hayate's upbeat nature would've resulted in Frontier being perfection itself.

2. To the extent that the VF-31 is the second-most numerous VF in my collection by a significant margin.  I currently have seven: 1 DX VF-31J, 1 DX VF-31F, 1 Bandai 1/72 VF-31J w/ Super Pack, 1 Tomytec VF-31J, 1 Tomytec VF-31C, and 2 Tomytec VF-31A's; plus a DX VF-31A on preorder that'll make eight when it arrives.  The only VF I have more of is my all-time favorite, the VF-2SS Valkyrie II... I've got fourteen of those (incl. 3 Bandai kits, 6 Evolution Toy, 2 HiMetal, and 3 1/72 kits).  As I write this, there's literally a VF-31J on display less than three feet from me.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Seto Kaiba

[kajnrig]

3 hours ago, Mommar said:

So not really the greatest complaint other than they consistently  haven't been able to make their stories clear in condensed form from the beginning of Macross.

I dunno, I vastly prefer the Plus movie to its OVA counterpart, and the Frontier movies told an arguably more focused story than the series did. That's at least 2 out of... 6? 33% ain't bad.

[Focslain]

6 hours ago, Mommar said:

Comparing the review on ANN with the speaker podcast they're in agreement.  So a B- overall, according to both the Speaker podcast and ANN, is eminently watchable it's just not groundbreaking.  That's actually amazing considering the source material.

It should be mentioned that the writer of the ANN review was in the Speaker podcast that the guys gave their own review. She literally states she pretty much verbalized her article.

[Jasonc]

I had a chance to read the review, and it appears her grade of B- is not a bad review at all. Because of this thread, I actually (against what I planned) listened to the Speaker Podcast in which she is a guest on. Between that and her written review, her two views seem to be that it is a good film to watch. In not watching the series, it does seem to be that there were some aspects of it that she would have needed to know from the series that would've helped the movie make a lot more sense, but that one can still get the overall meaning of what is going on. Without it, some things do seem a bit jarring, but to fans who have seen the series, it should be a lot less.

Overall, the reviews seem genuinely good from multiple sources. Now, I've also heard some of the criticisms, and they seem to be a little of what I expected. I wouldn't go as far as say the writing is pure crap, because it simply isn't. If that were the case, the overwhelming support of fans here in the U.S. (macrossworld is not a good indicator of the general anime fandom, mind you) would probably reflect that. In what I do with the convention, and in going to multiple conventions as part of being one of Super Dimension Con's "ambassadors" as we go to various conventions, I meet with a lot of fans of this series, Macross in general, and those that don't know much about it at all. There are different aspects of Delta that each like, but out of many of the newer fans, one criticism I haven't heard, is the writing, story, or anything in that realm. Even after bringing that up, it doesn't seem to be something that is a major issue at all.

Every Macross Movie has had some pieces that seem a bit jarring to people not familiar with its previous counterpart. Of course, it may seem strange to hear amongst us fans who know these stories better than most, but I've come across this in showing past girlfriends DYRL, people I've shown the Plus movie to, and as of late, the last two Frontier movies. There always seems to be some explaining I have to do afterwards, or during, but when one takes into consideration the fact that this particular review was from someone who fits that type of viewer, some of those criticisms are in fact, par for the course. I'll be seeing the movie next week, so maybe I'll have more to add in this thread, and I do intend to view the movie from a more objective POV.

[Einherjar]

What I’m hearing is that the biggest criticism for this movie besides quality issues is that it pretty much does what every movie version of previous entries did after DYRL besides the second Frontier movie and what Manga Entertinment did to Macross II.  That does not sound like a big deal.

[Seto Kaiba]

Caught up with a friend of mine in Japan who occasionally hunts rare artbooks for me and the Mecha Manual this morning after a teleconference, and got his surprisingly favorable impression of the film.

As he put it to me, Macross Delta: Passionate Walkure is a marked improvement on the series in almost every regard.  The pacing, apparently, is the real game-changer and makes it feel like a completely different story.  Without the full-stop exposition dumps, big lipped alligator moments like Messer's memorial, or most of the Walkure-goes-undercover stuff, the story flows much more naturally.  The faster pace doesn't leave any time to dwell on characters being undeveloped or underdeveloped, and apparently doesn't even give you time to properly notice the animation issues mentioned in the ANN review.  The only complaints he raised about the film was that he wasn't happy with there not being a proper love triangle in a Macross story, and that he felt they spent too much time on characters who've been reduced to bit parts in the film instead of properly developing the Aerial Knights. who are still sort of left as designated antagonists without a clear reason for their all-consuming hatred of humanity.

 

 

11 hours ago, Jasonc said:

In what I do with the convention, and in going to multiple conventions as part of being one of Super Dimension Con's "ambassadors" as we go to various conventions, I meet with a lot of fans of this series, Macross in general, and those that don't know much about it at all. There are different aspects of Delta that each like, but out of many of the newer fans, one criticism I haven't heard, is the writing, story, or anything in that realm. Even after bringing that up, it doesn't seem to be something that is a major issue at all.

Weirdly, from my involvement with a fair number of mecha anime groups and sites, and business travel occasionally putting me within reach of cons in North America and Europe, I've had the opposite experience talking to fans.  If we exclude the old farts who complain about "magical girls", the writing is about the only thing I've seen people complain of... and with very few exceptions, it's about the writing in the show's second half.  I've encountered very few fans who had any issues with the character or mechanical designs, and practically zero in terms of complaints about the setting or the music.  It's all been about the writing and pacing, and it's usually the same handful of issues with:

• The show's exposition-dump and flashback episodes frequently bringing the plot to a halt
• The show neglecting to develop the Aerial Knights and their motivations for hating humanity (and ultimately dumping it into a gaiden manga)
• The late reveal and failure to explore Mikumo's origins as a three-year-old clone
• The lack of closure in the ending
• The low number of mecha sequences in the buildup to the climax
• The love triangle becoming one-sided from ep14 on (mostly from #TeamMirage)
• The whole Lady M's identity tease-and-denial routine (esp. after they hinted at a Megaroad-01 connection)

I'm not certain if that's just that I'm doing this mostly with mecha anime enthusiasts or what, but almost nobody I've spoken to since Delta came out has been overtly critical of any part of the show except the writing.  The only other significant group?  A half-dozen or so people who thought the Draken III was kind of ugly.

[kajnrig]

16 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

• The late reveal and failure to explore Mikumo's origins as a three-year-old clone

This is still easily the most fraked-up thing about this show.

[SMS007]

Hey Seto, this probably isn't new information, but this is how some people elsewhere on the Internet treat you (scroll down a bit to see a mischaracterization of your words):

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by SMS007

[spacemanoeuvres]

13 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

Hey Seto, this probably isn't new information, but this is how some people elsewhere on the Internet treat you (scroll down a bit to see a mischaracterization of your words):

 

Lol omg seto you’re a “toxic...OLD...cretin” hahaha

This has got to be one of the folks from the discord server. That place is a delta circlejerk obsessed with wrist straps and body pillows. Say something negative about delta on there and you will get lambasted for toxic cretinism hahaha

[Einherjar]

"Oh noes, this movie is not gritty enough!"

Considering there's a somewhat related piece of work that is trying to be too gritty for its own good, make up your damn minds people.

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, kajnrig said:

This is still easily the most fraked-up thing about this show.

It would've been nice to explore that one more fully, esp. as it would've neatly tied into exploring and explaining who the sodding hell Lady M is.

(Of course, as far as I've seen, the show's staff have indicated they never actually decided on an identity for Lady M, so that might've been a bit of a wash.)

 

2 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Hey Seto, this probably isn't new information, but this is how some people elsewhere on the Internet treat you (scroll down a bit to see a mischaracterization of your words):

*yawn* Yeah, they do that sometimes.  Really, this is weak tea compared to what it used to be... I miss the days when I was legitimately treated as the boogeyman by fans of that other franchise we don't talk about here.  There used to be honest-to-goodness conspiracy theories about me exerting shadowy influence over their creative staffers.  Those were always good for a laugh. 

There is a bit of irony in selecting one of Delta's more vocal defenders here (and one of the board's younger "old" members) as the designated big old meanie picking on the series... 

EDIT: To add some additional hilarity to it, on the Macross BD thread I've just been accused of being a big Delta fan. 

 

2 hours ago, spacemanoeuvres said:

Lol omg seto you’re a “toxic...OLD...cretin” hahaha

Golly, they're sure to escalate to calling me a big meanie in no time! 

(Also, I'm like 99% sure VF5SS is at least five years older than me... if I'm all-caps OLD, what does that make him?  A fossil?)

 

Quote

This has got to be one of the folks from the discord server. That place is a delta circlejerk obsessed with wrist straps and body pillows. Say something negative about delta on there and you will get lambasted for toxic cretinism hahaha

Actually it's a member on here, his twitter name is the same as his forum username.

Let's be honest though, Delta having a passionate fandom is not a bad thing and bodes well for the future of the franchise.  Objectivity would be nice, but everyone has at least one thing we get a bit irrationally passionate about and there are far worse choices for things to consume your soul than a show about love and peace.  

 

2 hours ago, Einherjar said:

"Oh noes, this movie is not gritty enough!"

Considering there's a somewhat related piece of work that is trying to be too gritty for its own good, make up your damn minds people.

Are people actually saying that?  (No, really.  Are they?) 

Macross has NEVER been a gritty series, and hopefully never will be.  Leave the dark, depressing slogs through war-is-hell angst to Gundam and let's keep Macross all about love, life, and the power of communication.  

For someone to expect the Delta movie to be gritty... I can't even conceive of it.  Delta's such a light, optimistic series that asking for a dark, gritty version of that feels like asking for a dark and gritty episode of Mister Rogers Neighborhood.  

Edited February 15, 2018 by Seto Kaiba

[spacemanoeuvres]

Yes, ultimately it's good that so many people enjoyed the show and movie (even if I didn't).  Still love the valks and am excited for the next round of pre-order madness!

[Einherjar]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Are people actually saying that?  (No, really.  Are they?) 

I would have to say you probably are after those recent posts/rants at some level.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, Einherjar said:

I would have to say you probably are after those recent posts/rants at some level.

... no idea where you're getting that, unless you're referring to when I outlined the implications of the way Macross Delta ended for Windermere a few pages back when someone commented about the lack of closure to the conflict?  (They're pretty damned awful, but not something that would've fit with the series at all and mercifully went undiscussed in the show.)  

Grit has never been the Macross way, and I've always rather staunchly maintained that the kind of gritty action-oriented sequel some fans pine for is the last thing the creators should do.  Macross's overriding theme has always been about communication, mutual understanding, and love... which doesn't exactly mesh with gritty, no-holds-barred action.  Delta, like 7, absolutely gets that, and is taking it to its logical extreme.  Mind you, I don't think Delta's ending did as good a job with it as they did in 7, mainly because the Aerial Knights missed out on characterization that'd have made them a more sympathetic foe.  You couldn't help but feel a little bad for the Protodeviln after the whole Gigile x Sivil thing and him trying to revive her by singing (badly).  The gaiden manga did a lot to help the Aerial Knights in that regard, showing that they're not arbitrarily racist but rather are a broken bunch who lost a lot in the previous war.

[Sandman]

18 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Hey Seto, this probably isn't new information, but this is how some people elsewhere on the Internet treat you (scroll down a bit to see a mischaracterization of your words):

 

It isn't just Seto. That guy has been blasting this whole forum as a whole for some time now. He calls us all delta bashers. Severely disappointing since I use to enjoy listening to him on the DAP podcast years ago.

Its a real unobjective and uncompromising view point. I don't understand these fans that can't objectively take any criticism of Delta. From what was stated in the podcast review of the movie, Kawamori seemed to take some of that constructive criticism to heart and worked on correcting some of those issue. It doesn't mean we don't love Delta. There's many aspects of Delta that I love but there's no way I can admit the overall writing was great for this series. 

And before any one chimes in about that vocal minority that bitches about Delta any chance they get. Yeah there is some of that but it's like that everywhere on the internet. There are always going to be those guys around.

Everyone has an opinion and are entitled to it. I don't think it's particular mature to call someone a cretin because you don't agree with it. Theres an ironic hypocrisy to it.

[IXTL]

 

[IXTL]

http://repotama.com/2018/02/99587/

 

[IXTL]

Wow, it looks like the Gerwalk joint is bent two clicks in fighter mode to accommodate the Armor Pack.

On the right. Armored Kairos's.

[davidwhangchoi]

4 hours ago, Sandman said:

It isn't just Seto. That guy has been blasting this whole forum as a whole for some time now. He calls us all delta bashers. Severely disappointing since I use to enjoy listening to him on the DAP podcast years ago.

Its a real unobjective and uncompromising view point. I don't understand these fans that can't objectively take any criticism of Delta. From what was stated in the podcast review of the movie, Kawamori seemed to take some of that constructive criticism to heart and worked on correcting some of those issue. It doesn't mean we don't love Delta. There's many aspects of Delta that I love but there's no way I can admit the overall writing was great for this series. 

And before any one chimes in about that vocal minority that bitches about Delta any chance they get. Yeah there is some of that but it's like that everywhere on the internet. There are always going to be those guys around.

Everyone has an opinion and are entitled to it. I don't think it's particular mature to call someone a cretin because you don't agree with it. Theres an ironic hypocrisy to it.

well that guy saved our valk shoulders. so who cares if he has an opinion. (agreeing with sandman about everyone is entitled to an opinion.)  i have shoulders!

Edited February 16, 2018 by davidwhangchoi

[Lolicon]

People on the internet get quite upset when you shatter their echo chamber by not falling in line with their opinions. Quite amusing. 

I enjoy bashing Delta because it's a f***ing terrible show.

I'll be in Tokyo in the the spring so I'll catch the movie if it's still playing. I get the feeling that a B- is probably much too generous. 

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, Sandman said:

It isn't just Seto. That guy has been blasting this whole forum as a whole for some time now. He calls us all delta bashers. [...]

Its a real unobjective and uncompromising view point. I don't understand these fans that can't objectively take any criticism of Delta. From what was stated in the podcast review of the movie, Kawamori seemed to take some of that constructive criticism to heart and worked on correcting some of those issue. It doesn't mean we don't love Delta. There's many aspects of Delta that I love but there's no way I can admit the overall writing was great for this series. 

Most of the criticisms of the show voiced on these boards are the kind of thing I was talking about a few posts back... fans who have very specific, well-reasoned arguments for finding portions of Delta unsatisfying.  There's very little actual bashing of the show here, it's almost entirely "I wish they'd done this part better".

Kudos to Kawamori if he did in fact take the constructive criticism to heart for Passionate Walkure.  The more balanced presentation of action and music that fans over in Japan have reported most definitely suggests that the staff were paying attention.

(I just wish they put more effort into characterizing the Aerial Knights.  The White Knight of the Black Wing did a great job making the young Knights feel like true Macross antagonists... people who aren't bad or evil, but merely doing what they think is right or the best for their people.)

 

7 hours ago, Sandman said:

And before any one chimes in about that vocal minority that bitches about Delta any chance they get. Yeah there is some of that but it's like that everywhere on the internet. There are always going to be those guys around.

The community here is usually pretty good about shutting down the unreasonable criticisms of the series too... like the notorious "they're magical girls" argument that dogged every review thread on the boards for like the first eight episodes.

You can't please everyone, but at least you can insist upon reasonable criticism.

 

1 hour ago, Lolicon said:

People on the internet get quite upset when you shatter their echo chamber by not falling in line with their opinions. Quite amusing. 

Let us not forget that this site had a pretty big problem with that kind of behavior in the not-too-distant past.  You used to be able to expect a small crowd to descend upon you to tell you what a tosser they thought you were if you said anything remotely negative about Macross 7, or positive about Macross II.  That only got cleared up for good when Kawamori himself sank the basis for it when he did a fan Q&A and said II was as valid a Macross series as any other.