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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

All told, I think the oft-returned-to point about The Force Awakens is that it's an OK film on its own... until you notice that it's just J.J. Abrams trying to pass off a cosmetically overhauled SparkNotes version of A New Hope as an original movie.  Its perceived quality is all borrowed gloss from the iconic original Star Wars trilogy, tarted up a bit with expensive CGI.  I'm not sure if it'd be better or worse if you took the Star Wars title and associations away from it.

Examining The Force Awakens's original elements on their own, it's painfully obvious how underdeveloped every part of it was.  It's all flash and no substance, and if they hadn't spent so much money on VFX the whole affair would feel more like a Star Wars mockbuster than a legitimate installment in the franchise with its shoddy dollar store knockoff versions of the first trilogy's cast and factions.

 

The Last Jedi was Disney's almost understandable overreaction to the entirely justified accusations that they'd tried to pass a ridiculously underthought sh*tty remake of A New Hope off as a new movie.  They got royally reamed for their unoriginality, so they tried to mix it up as much as possible and subvert expectations... which blew up in their faces when they tried to make steak with the fandom's sacred cows.  

The Rise of Skywalker seems set to be a The Force Awakens style terribly underthought remake of Return of the Jedi, complete with imitation brand Luke (Rey, who is only marginally less unoriginal than the EU's Luuke Skywalker) and imitation brand Darth Vader (Kylo Ren) killing Palpatine off (again).

 

 

 

TLJ was nearly as much a copy of ESB with some RotJ thrown in. Then just applied them in a new order and in horrible ways with nonsensical things in between.  If Rian Johnson thinks he made a new movie he’s kidding himself. He just took parts from better movies and then ruined them. 
 

Chris

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10 hours ago, electric indigo said:

It's a bit unfair to judge the CGI-battles from today's perspective. When I saw AOTC in cinema, it was the most epic space war stuff out there. Same when I saw ROTJ during it's original release. But I agree that the human interaction scenes kill the movie.

Actually, when I first watched AOTC in theaters, I already felt the Clones vs. Droids battle was overdone and meh.

Storywise:  Didn’t make much sense.  If the Clones were there to rescue/assist the trapped Jedi, they already accomplished that mission.  I figure rescue them, get the hell out of there.

If the next objective was to capture Dooku, 1) Lucas should have better spelled it out.  2) You have some tired Jedi that have already gone through a bit of a fight, and you want them to lead the next battle charge?  And 3) Why you wasting all your resources fighting the droids?  Go all-out for the boss.

Add in Padme’s fall from the carrier and next minute she’s fine and jauntily running across the screen.

Toss in that Ani and Obi (who have been through two major consecutive fights by this time and got CAUGHT earlier by Dooku’s crew) are the only Jedi to go after Dooku.  And only Yoda (not an entire posse of the best Jedi fighters on the Council) backs them up.

And the whole “let’s have the Clones fight the droids” bits become kinda pointless.  It’s only shown for the spectacle of it all;  there’s not much else storywise or plot-wise.  It’s just there for the sake of being there.

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7 minutes ago, Mog said:

Actually, when I first watched AOTC in theaters, I already felt the Clones vs. Droids battle was overdone and meh.

Storywise:  Didn’t make much sense.  If the Clones were there to rescue/assist the trapped Jedi, they already accomplished that mission.  I figure rescue them, get the hell out of there.

If the next objective was to capture Dooku, 1) Lucas should have better spelled it out.  2) You have some tired Jedi that have already gone through a bit of a fight, and you want them to lead the next battle charge?  And 3) Why you wasting all your resources fighting the droids?  Go all-out for the boss.

Add in Padme’s fall from the carrier and next minute she’s fine and jauntily running across the screen.

Toss in that Ani and Obi (who have been through two major consecutive fights by this time and got CAUGHT earlier by Dooku’s crew) are the only Jedi to go after Dooku.  And only Yoda (not an entire posse of the best Jedi fighters on the Council) backs them up.

And the whole “let’s have the Clones fight the droids” bits become kinda pointless.  It’s only shown for the spectacle of it all;  there’s not much else storywise or plot-wise.  It’s just there for the sake of being there.

I never read the novelization for AOTC or any of the plot-hole filler books.....so that is one thing I never felt made any sense....if the Jedi were completely caught off-guard regarding the existence of the "clone army"....why did they so willingly accept it and immediately used it to fight their battles?  Didn't the Galactic Republic have an army or at minimum, wouldn't they start a draft consisting of members of all the planets that were part of the Galactic Republic?  Did the Jedi ever question why "one of their own" would have secretly ordered the creation of the clone army?

I know, I know.....it's Star Wars......move along, move along.....:D

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Didn't the Galactic Republic have an army or at minimum, wouldn't they start a draft consisting of members of all the planets that were part of the Galactic Republic? 

Oddly, that was actually answered... in part in The Phantom Menace, and more fully in Attack of the Clones.  

The Republic had been at peace for nearly a millennium by the time the Clone Wars started.  It didn't have a centralized military force, and hadn't had one at any point in living memory.  Obi-wan was being entirely literal when he told Luke the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic.  The next best thing they had, as far as I can find, was a group that answered to the Republic's judiciary called the Judicials, who were basically the space highway patrol (one of their ships was the one that delivered Qui-Gon and Obi-wan to the Trade Federation ship in The Phantom Menace).  Individual planets had militias or organized defense forces, but there was no military answering to the Senate directly.

 

27 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

if the Jedi were completely caught off-guard regarding the existence of the "clone army"....why did they so willingly accept it and immediately used it to fight their battles? 

As Mace Windu put it, "You must realize there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic. We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers."

Any port in a storm, right?

 

Quote

Did the Jedi ever question why "one of their own" would have secretly ordered the creation of the clone army?

Probably?  A quick skim of the character summary for the guy who authorized the creation of the clone army tells me the Jedi Master responsible ("Sifo-Dyas") was apparently kicked out of the Jedi Counsel because he foresaw the war and argued vehemently for the creation of an army necessary to defend the Republic.  (Then went AWOL and commissioned said army.)  The Jedi Counsel probably saw that as "OK, *sshole had a point."

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Probably?  A quick skim of the character summary for the guy who authorized the creation of the clone army tells me the Jedi Master responsible ("Sifo-Dyas") was apparently kicked out of the Jedi Counsel because he foresaw the war and argued vehemently for the creation of an army necessary to defend the Republic.  (Then went AWOL and commissioned said army.)  The Jedi Counsel probably saw that as "OK, *sshole had a point."

OK, that seems like a legit "enough" excuse 

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10 hours ago, Knight26 said:

IF anything, the Mandalorian shows that live action Star Wars can still be done well, even with a limited budget.  (...)

I think limited budget is the reason why Star Wars was so good when the first film came out.  Nowadays, with CG, etc., there is virtually an "unlimited" budget, allowing writers, etc. to use their first "story" ideas.  Back in the day, they arguably couldn't go with their first idea, and had to rethink things to fit into the budget—invariably coming up with better ideas that helped the story.

As someone mentioned about AOTC: the clones vs. droids battle is there for the spectacle (or "just because they could afford to do it").  Compare to the climactic battle scenes in ROTJ: they're kept to minimal snippets to convey the scale of the fight (due to budget limitations), and a lot of the focus is on the battle of wills between the Emperor and Luke (relatively low cost—as it's essentially closeups of actors acting with minimal visual and special effects)—which is at the heart and soul of Star Wars.

Thus, big budgets are killing what makes Star Wars great.

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On 11/19/2019 at 7:06 PM, jvmacross said:

The sequel trilogy has seemingly made it safe to openly praise the prequel trilogy! :lol:

 

Life is full of little bonuses. Somewhere in Marin county, George is smiling.

1 hour ago, sh9000 said:

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It’s just so wrong that the original has an Ewok in the cover, the new series has Rose, and somehow they didn’t put Jar jar on the cover for the prequel.

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16 minutes ago, kalvasflam said:

It’s just so wrong that the original has an Ewok in the cover, the new series has Rose, and somehow they didn’t put Jar jar on the cover for the prequel.

Great...thanks for reminding me she is still in this hot mess....

I guess Rose now thinks it's OK to ride beasts into battle and certain death instead of letting them live wild and free!!! ;)

...Or will some "plot hole filler" book reveal them as sentient creatures that hate the First Order and willingly volunteered their services??? :5:

Edited by jvmacross

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4 hours ago, sketchley said:

As someone mentioned about AOTC: the clones vs. droids battle is there for the spectacle (or "just because they could afford to do it").  Compare to the climactic battle scenes in ROTJ: they're kept to minimal snippets to convey the scale of the fight (due to budget limitations), and a lot of the focus is on the battle of wills between the Emperor and Luke (relatively low cost—as it's essentially closeups of actors acting with minimal visual and special effects)—which is at the heart and soul of Star Wars.

Also, here's the thing with the ROTJ space battle:  there's clear stakes and objectives.

  1. Blow up the Death Star;
  2. Survive long enough for Han and his team to lower the shield;
  3. Engage the Star Destroyers, possibly making it harder for the Death Star's death beam to destroy your ships.
  4. Keep the TIE's from pestering/attacking your capital ships.

Even with Sith's big opening space battle, same thing:  clear objectives and stakes.

  1. Defend Coruscant from attack; and
  2. Rescue the Chancellor from Grievous.

Other than to show the Clones "attacking," what was the point of the clones versus the droids on Geonosis in AOTC?

I could write a whole manifesto on everything else wrong with AOTC.  But I'd still rank it above TLJ.

 

EDIT:  Regarding those EW covers, where the the hell is Yoda and Dooku?

Edited by Mog

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3 hours ago, kalvasflam said:

Life is full of little bonuses. Somewhere in Marin county, George is smiling.

He's already on record as saying Rise of Skywalker is "Great... because I didn't make it so they'll blame someone else!"

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10 hours ago, jvmacross said:

Great...thanks for reminding me she is still in this hot mess....

If it's any consolation, there's been a fair bit of circumstantial evidence that her role has been minimized in response to the backlash against her plot tumor in The Last Jedi.

My guess would be the studio felt they couldn't outright get rid of Rose for much the same reason Star Trek: Voyager ended up abandoning its plans to off Harry Kim... despite the character's unpopularity with general audiences, outside circumstances involving race-representation and fear of backlash make separating them from the cast politically difficult.

 

10 hours ago, jvmacross said:

I guess Rose now thinks it's OK to ride beasts into battle and certain death instead of letting them live wild and free!!! ;)

*looks at literally millennia-long history of cavalry warfare here on Earth*

Hey, low-tech worked for the Ewoks, right?

 

10 hours ago, jvmacross said:

...Or will some "plot hole filler" book reveal them as sentient creatures that hate the First Order and willingly volunteered their services??? :5:

I'd expect nothing less than an entire short story devoted to explaining their backstory, motivations, favorite food, mother's maiden name, and the symbolic significance of the last four digits of their social security numbers.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Mog said:

Other than to show the Clones "attacking," what was the point of the clones versus the droids on Geonosis in AOTC?

The clone army was a Chekhov's Gun... you don't put that gun on the mantle and not take it down and fire it sometime.

That said, the whole reason for the clone army is a single throwaway line in A New Hope about Luke's father having fought in the Clone Wars.

 

7 hours ago, Mog said:

I could write a whole manifesto on everything else wrong with AOTC.  But I'd still rank it above TLJ.

Most would rank a dramatic reading of the phone book by Gilbert Gottfried and Fran Drescher higher than The Last Jedi.

Comparisons to The Last Jedi are the new "still a better love story than Twilight".

 

 

 

6 hours ago, JB0 said:

He's already on record as saying Rise of Skywalker is "Great... because I didn't make it so they'll blame someone else!"

If you've heard anything about Lucas's plans for the sequel trilogy, what we got from Abrams and Johnson actually sounds less stupid.

(George reportedly wanted Star Wars VII thru IX to be basically a trilogy version of Fantastic Voyage about the midichlorians.)

Star Wars wasn't so much between a rock and a hard place as it was between Jar-Jar Abrams's dumpster fire and Lucas's tire fire.

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6 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The clone army was a Chekhov's Gun... you don't put that gun on the mantle and not take it down and fire it sometime.

That said, the whole reason for the clone army is a single throwaway line in A New Hope about Luke's father having fought in the Clone Wars.

If you look through my last few posts on this thread, I have no issue with the clones coming in to rescue the Jedi.

It’s all the “strategy” and lack of clear explanations/goals after that point that I take umbrage with.

Again, they succeeded in saving the Jedi.  If that’s their only objective, get the hell out and cover the escape route.

If the goal instead becomes getting Dooku after the initial rescue, then commit all your resources to that objective.  

Why make it seem like “fight the droids” is your main objective, but “capture Dooku” becomes your side quest?

It’s like the plan is to kill all the pawns (the droids), instead of capturing the king.

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48 minutes ago, Mog said:

If you look through my last few posts on this thread, I have no issue with the clones coming in to rescue the Jedi.

It’s all the “strategy” and lack of clear explanations/goals after that point that I take umbrage with.

Again, they succeeded in saving the Jedi.  If that’s their only objective, get the hell out and cover the escape route.

If the goal instead becomes getting Dooku after the initial rescue, then commit all your resources to that objective.  

Why make it seem like “fight the droids” is your main objective, but “capture Dooku” becomes your side quest?

It’s like the plan is to kill all the pawns (the droids), instead of capturing the king.

It seems that the intent of the Clone attack in AOTC was to, in fact, rescue the Jedi.  However, it would have been better if the attack was shown to be truly multi-pronged:
Prong 1:  Rescue the Jedi "Generals."
Prong 2:  End the war quickly with decisive first strike, targeting enemy ships and production facilities.
Prong 3:  "Cut the head off the snake."  Take out/capture Dooku and the CIS leadership.

The issue became that Yoda led Prong 1 successfully, but the other Jedi didn't get the memo about Prongs 2 and 3.  Anakin and Obi-Wan went after Dooku, true, but the others basically fell into a holding action instead of going after high value targets.  One could chalk this up to the Jedi not being ready to wage a war, but some dialogue about ordering orbital bombardment, or attacking key facilities would have shown at least some strategic thought at work.

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2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

*looks at literally millennia-long history of cavalry warfare here on Earth*

Hey, low-tech worked for the Ewoks, right?

That wasn't my point....

She deliberately set the "horses" free in TLJ because of what she felt was their "torturous" captivity....

I guess her "certain point of view" changed in the year or so after TLJ....concerning the use of beasts.....

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Squealer the Pig told her that “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” ;)

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Hehe, it just shows how that character is hated up to a level of Jar Jar and Ewoks.  She was a redundancy in TLJ and added no real value other than to keep Finn company, and the whole Finn side mission was just dumb.

this reminds me, who is the other girl next to her on the cover?  Is she like a newbie put in place to balance out the human male to female ratio?  They should have put in Phasma instead if that was the case.

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5 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

She deliberately set the "horses" free in TLJ because of what she felt was their "torturous" captivity....

I guess her "certain point of view" changed in the year or so after TLJ....concerning the use of beasts.....

The Last Jedi was pretty clear that Rose's objection to the casino's racetrack was due to the abusive treatment of the animals by the casino's handlers, not the use of animals in general.

Presumably Rose would not object to a working animal that was well-treated and properly cared for.

 

(This, of course, mirrors real world attitudes once abuses of animals at race tracks became known... though racehorses were typically pretty well-treated because of how difficult it is to breed them, how delicate a horse's health is in general, and how sensitive their performance ability is to health problems.  To me, the film's treatment of those racing animals mirrors a lot of real world treatment of greyhounds bred to race.  Because they breed in numbers, grow quickly, and have a relatively short window of athletic viability, racing dogs are often not well-kept and have to cope with cramped and unhygenic living conditions, substandard food, and a lack of medical treatment.  I've seen this firsthand, and briefly fostered a greyhound that'd been abused by its handler at a racetrack in Florida shortly after Florida banned dog racing a year ago.  That difference in treatment of the animals is why horse racing is still very much legal in most places while dog racing is increasingly banned.)

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24 minutes ago, kalvasflam said:

this reminds me, who is the other girl next to her on the cover?  Is she like a newbie put in place to balance out the human male to female ratio?  They should have put in Phasma instead if that was the case.

That's the new girl, Jannah.  She's one of the locals from the moon/planet where the Death Star II wreckage crashed.  If this is a remake of Return of the Jedi, I guess she's like that one Ewok who takes a shine to Leia.

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48 minutes ago, Mog said:

Squealer the Pig told her that “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” ;)

:lol:

Chris

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41 minutes ago, kalvasflam said:

Hehe, it just shows how that character is hated up to a level of Jar Jar and Ewoks.  She was a redundancy in TLJ and added no real value other than to keep Finn company, and the whole Finn side mission was just dumb.

this reminds me, who is the other girl next to her on the cover?  Is she like a newbie put in place to balance out the human male to female ratio?  They should have put in Phasma instead if that was the case.

Rose was a Fan Surrogate character, and in that way made below zero sense.  Given the timeline of Ep7-8 there is simply no way she could have known who Finn was beyond scuttlebutt regarding a First Order defector who helped destroy Starkiller Base.  Plus she robbed the audience of the great dynamic that started between Finn and Poe in Ep7, while shoe-horning in a completely unnecessary lover plot, that made less sense then Stalkakin and Padme in AOTC.

As for Phasma, I think that waste of a character is dead, haven't seen her anywhere in the promo material so far, unless she's the red trooper now.

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40 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's the new girl, Jannah.  She's one of the locals from the moon/planet where the Death Star II wreckage crashed.  If this is a remake of Return of the Jedi, I guess she's like that one Ewok who takes a shine to Leia.

You mean Wicket.

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28 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

Rose was a Fan Surrogate character, and in that way made below zero sense.  Given the timeline of Ep7-8 there is simply no way she could have known who Finn was beyond scuttlebutt regarding a First Order defector who helped destroy Starkiller Base.  Plus she robbed the audience of the great dynamic that started between Finn and Poe in Ep7, while shoe-horning in a completely unnecessary lover plot, that made less sense then Stalkakin and Padme in AOTC.

As for Phasma, I think that waste of a character is dead, haven't seen her anywhere in the promo material so far, unless she's the red trooper now.

There's "no way" she could have known about Finn? I know details about people I don't otherwise associate with in the least and I'm not part of a rebel faction. Of all the things to have rub you the wrong way, that one seems so insanely minor. Otherwise yes, everything with Rose failed, though I would say most of that isn't because of Rose, just because of some awful writing decisions that included her. Also, she's not hot, if she were hot there'd be a lot less criticism. 

Isn't it super insensitive to be insinuating that a new character is a stand in for an over grown shih-tzu? 

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Isn't a likely explanation that Finn's new bestie is literally the biggest loudmouth jackass in the entire Resistance?  

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13 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Isn't a likely explanation that Finn's new bestie is literally the biggest loudmouth jackass in the entire Resistance?  

Are we talking about Poe, Rose, Rey, or Jannah?

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20 minutes ago, jenius said:

There's "no way" she could have known about Finn? I know details about people I don't otherwise associate with in the least and I'm not part of a rebel faction. Of all the things to have rub you the wrong way, that one seems so insanely minor. Otherwise yes, everything with Rose failed, though I would say most of that isn't because of Rose, just because of some awful writing decisions that included her. Also, she's not hot, if she were hot there'd be a lot less criticism. 

The problem isn't that she knew of him, but she recognized him.  It was the same day as the attack on Starkiller Base and she was a low level functionary on a ship that likely had thousands of people.  Given that Finn went straight from the mission brief, to the attack, and then was brought back in medical stasis, when would she have had time to get an image of him?  Or was it simply that he she heard he was a black guy, and she immediately assumed that first black guy she saw the defector, Finn?

And I never once made any comments about her appearance.  The actress is not unattractive, and even if she was "hot" it would make no difference for how inexcusably bad the character was.
 

Quote

Isn't it super insensitive to be insinuating that a new character is a stand in for an over grown shih-tzu? 

I'm assuming that was directed at @Seto Kaiba

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27 minutes ago, jenius said:

Isn't it super insensitive to be insinuating that a new character is a stand in for an over grown shih-tzu? 

I meant in terms of her significance to the plot, as the one who introduces the Rebellion to the plucky locals of isolated moon X who ultimately turn the tide in the Rebellion's favor.

Isn't it rather insensitive to insinuate that a non-human character who is clearly sentient, albeit from a primitive culture, whose people helped fight the Empire is nothing more than a pet?

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I still want to know why Poe wasn't shoved out an airlock for instigating a mutiny that resulted in the full thousand-plus crew of the Raddis being reduced to an anti-First Order club that could all hang out in the Falcon's cargo hold.

Edited by Chronocidal

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45 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

I still want to know why Poe wasn't shoved out an airlock for instigating a mutiny that resulted in the full thousand-plus crew of the Raddis being reduced to an anti-First Order club that could all hang out in the Falcon's cargo hold.

Because summary execution is the Empire's (and First Order's) schtick... it's a bad guy thing.  

The heros in melodramas like Star Wars are supposed to be above that kind of petty and vengeful behavior.  If they execute someone, it'll only be after due process has run its course in the appropriate court.  Poe Dameron's essentially off the hook because the entire command structure of the Resistance was wiped out except for Leia, who's in rough shape, so he's the highest ranking officer left standing.  It strikes me as unlikely that he'd obligingly jump in front of a firing squad by giving the order to convene his own court martial, or convene those which might lead to his own by court martialing Finn and Rose for their AWOL adventure that ultimately accomplished nothing except vandalizing a casino and getting practically 99% of the Resistance killed.

 

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2 hours ago, Knight26 said:

And I never once made any comments about her appearance.  The actress is not unattractive, and even if she was "hot" it would make no difference for how inexcusably bad the character was.

The "hot" thing is all me. I don't think it's terribly controversial to say that audiences give a whole lot more leeway to attractive characters than 'regulars'. To your point, if Rose was hot she'd still be a character that wouldn't pass scrutiny... but the average audience would put her under a lot less scrutiny if she was smoking hot. It can work multiple ways. If Poe wasn't handsome, his character would probably be pilloried far more. And I'm not trying to say that this is some terrible condition unique to any movie, it's been happening since the first films. 

I still think that in a world of future tech, questionable edits, and plenty of off-screen events the audience shouldn't feel they must be a witness to, there's no reason to think someone can't recognize someone else. To your point, he does have a unique look and Rose seems like a bit of an odd-ball so there's certainly more implausible things that happen after that moment that deserves way more ire.

And yes, I was teasing Seto that it seems wrong to say that anyone is a stand-in for an Ewok... no matter how reasonable the thought process that led to the conclusion. 

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25 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Because summary execution is the Empire's (and First Order's) schtick... it's a bad guy thing.  

Fair, the want to see him pilloried is a personal thing because I'm just sick of the character.

The worst part of the whole thing though is when he gets the giant lightbulb over his head in the last five minutes of the movie and goes "Oh.. so that's what leadership is!"  I wanted to take a shotgun to the screen.  I've seen characters with plot armor before, but I don't think I've ever seen such overpowered karma shielding.

I would have absolutely cheered if Leia hadn't used the stun setting.

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3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Isn't it rather insensitive to insinuate that a non-human character who is clearly sentient, albeit from a primitive culture, whose people helped fight the Empire is nothing more than a pet?

So now things have deteriorated to the point that it's "racist" to poke fun at make-believe races?

 

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31 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The heros in melodramas like Star Wars are supposed to be above that kind of petty and vengeful behavior.  If they execute someone, it'll only be after due process has run its course in the appropriate court.  

 

Guess you missed Rogue One....:rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, Knight26 said:


And I never once made any comments about her appearance.  The actress is not unattractive, and even if she was "hot" it would make no difference for how inexcusably bad the character was.

Well, I can’t remember where the name Panda Express came from, but it sure was funny.

But the entire role was extraneous, they could have not had her and TLJ would have been almost as bad.

 

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