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New Macross TV Series in 20xx (sometime this decade)


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This new series better be good. I see a trend I'm not liking after watching a bit of Macross Dullta. Every Macross has Idol / Idols, music as a weapon, transforming mechs and a love triangle. The thing I see shifting is men becoming girls.  It started with Basara in 7 and continued into Frontier with Alto the cross dresser (nevertheless I liked 7 and Frontier) but Dullta everyone is a girl. Even the "guys". That's not why I do not like (or at least not entirely why) Dullta but it didn't help. Where are the real men?!?  Where are the drunken womanizing insanely heroic 5 o'clock shadowed men. You know the ones who look like they've gone thru puberty. If this new Macross series isn't good I might just have to stick with buying the toys only and avoid the anime like mind herpes. Cautiously optimistic...

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15 hours ago, CRYO said:

Looks like adolinker's had confused kawamori's anime = Macross, the April 4 anime is actually  Pandora, new Macross TV still have no official air time:wacko:

Ah well, mistakes happen.

Techno would definitely have been an odd choice for a Macross series, though didn't Sharon Apple do a fair bit of electronic music?  (e.g. Information High)

 

41 minutes ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

The thing I see shifting is men becoming girls.  It started with Basara in 7 [...]

... lolwut.

 

41 minutes ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

and continued into Frontier with Alto the cross dresser

Cultural context is a mystery to you, yes?

Alto Saotome was Macross Frontier's token "but not too foreign" Japanese character, from an old traditionalist Japanese family that runs a kabuki theater.  Ever since the Japanese government put into effect a ban on women acting in kabuki in 1629, young men have been playing women's roles for kabuki plays in much the same way that European theater did during the Renaissance and the Greeks did during the heydey of ancient Greece.  He's not a crossdresser, he's the successor to a family business (a big social obligation in Japan) and every trained kabuki actor has been expected to be capable of playing female roles for over 430 years by that point.

 

41 minutes ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

Where are the real men?!?  Where are the drunken womanizing insanely heroic 5 o'clock shadowed men. You know the ones who look like they've gone thru puberty. If this new Macross series isn't good I might just have to stick with buying the toys only and avoid the anime like mind herpes. Cautiously optimistic...

... did you develop your picture of masculinity from old Marlboro ads?

(You do realize, as I noted in that other thread for your benefit, that Roy's drunken, womanizing, reckless behavior is part of him being a walking racist stereotype of Americans and that those are NOT positive traits in Japan?)

 

1 minute ago, kajnrig said:

See, here I was thinking the characters were just dull and boring, but alas you're right! Yes, of course! The problem is that the boys are pretty! :lol: :rofl:

Would now be an inappropriate time for a chorus of "Dude looks like a lady"?

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18 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Ah well, mistakes happen.

Techno would definitely have been an odd choice for a Macross series, though didn't Sharon Apple do a fair bit of electronic music?  (e.g. Information High)

 

... lolwut.

 

Cultural context is a mystery to you, yes?

Alto Saotome was Macross Frontier's token "but not too foreign" Japanese character, from an old traditionalist Japanese family that runs a kabuki theater.  Ever since the Japanese government put into effect a ban on women acting in kabuki in 1629, young men have been playing women's roles for kabuki plays in much the same way that European theater did during the Renaissance and the Greeks did during the heydey of ancient Greece.  He's not a crossdresser, he's the successor to a family business (a big social obligation in Japan) and every trained kabuki actor has been expected to be capable of playing female roles for over 430 years by that point.

 

... did you develop your picture of masculinity from old Marlboro ads?

(You do realize, as I noted in that other thread for your benefit, that Roy's drunken, womanizing, reckless behavior is part of him being a walking racist stereotype of Americans and that those are NOT positive traits in Japan?)

 

Would now be an inappropriate time for a chorus of "Dude looks like a lady"?

I see your lolwut (which already tells me your approximate age and maturity level) to my statement and raise your lolwut to your entire reply.  Yes if the only two options are lady boys or Marlboro ads I'll go with Marlboro ads every time. Yes I'm quite familiar with Japanese culture. Been there twice. I even own a few Nihinto. I know quite a bit about Japanese culture and about Kabuki Odori. I was obviously exaggerating but point is Alto looked more like a girl BEFORE putting on his Kabuki garb. My biggest problem with Dullta was well everything except the mecha. The dull characters, the boring plot and pacing. The music was nice and the mechs were cool. That's it. I feel like this anime exists just to sell music cds and downloads. And as for the Roy and Marlboro comment yes in familiar with the negative Gaijin Stereotype and Roy's embodiment of it. I'm also familiar with just how popular of a character he is despite that.  I guess the Japanese stereotype has become little boys who don't have public hair yet. Guess they're are no adults in Japan. I'm saying they need to mix up the nationalities and personalities and ages. Not everyone needs to or should be your Marlboro ad man but not everyone needs to be under 15 and look like a chick?  While they're at it I guess they could come up with an interesting plot that is well written with interesting characters. That couldn't hurt either. 

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11 minutes ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

I see your lolwut (which already tells me your approximate age and maturity level) to my statement and raise your lolwut to your entire reply.

The ad hominem is cute, but does nothing to support your argument.

I'd really love to know how you rate Basara as feminine.  The guy who decides to parachute from the top of City-7's sky to a concert for no reason than because he can, who goes charging out into battle without a thought for his own safety, and who basically beats the Protodeviln through the power of hot-blooded rocking out.  He runs on hotblooded, manly tropes almost exclusively.

 

11 minutes ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

I was obviously exaggerating but point is Alto looked more like a girl BEFORE putting on his Kabuki garb.

He's a guy with long hair, so?  He still kicks a tremendous amount of ass throughout the series and two movies, and nearly defeats one of the most capable pilots in Macross while flying a fighter that was a full generation older and had less than half the performance.

 

11 minutes ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

My biggest problem with Dullta was well everything except the mecha. The dull characters, the boring plot and pacing. The music was nice and the mechs were cool. That's it.

Didn't you say in the other thread that you'd seen three episodes of it?  A bit early to pass such a judgement, isn't it?

 

11 minutes ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

I feel like this anime exists just to sell music cds and downloads.

It's pretty heavily involved in promoting the actual idol group Walkure, yes.

 

11 minutes ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

I guess the Japanese stereotype has become little boys who don't have public hair yet. Guess they're are no adults in Japan. I'm saying they need to mix up the nationalities and personalities and ages. Not everyone needs to or should be your Marlboro ad man but not everyone needs to be under 15 and look like a chick?

Not only did this come off as pretty racist, but as I pointed out earlier your contention that the cast is "under 15" is not remotely factual.  Delta's cast are, on average, 2-3 years older than any of their equivalents in the original series.

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15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The ad hominem is cute, but does nothing to support your argument.

I'd really love to know how you rate Basara as feminine.  The guy who decides to parachute from the top of City-7's sky to a concert for no reason than because he can, who goes charging out into battle without a thought for his own safety, and who basically beats the Protodeviln through the power of hot-blooded rocking out.  He runs on hotblooded, manly tropes almost exclusively.

 

He's a guy with long hair, so?  He still kicks a tremendous amount of ass throughout the series and two movies, and nearly defeats one of the most capable pilots in Macross while flying a fighter that was a full generation older and had less than half the performance.

 

Didn't you say in the other thread that you'd seen three episodes of it?  A bit early to pass such a judgement, isn't it?

 

It's pretty heavily involved in promoting the actual idol group Walkure, yes.

 

Not only did this come off as pretty racist, but as I pointed out earlier your contention that the cast is "under 15" is not remotely factual.  Delta's cast are, on average, 2-3 years older than any of their equivalents in the original series.

It's supported just fine my man. You're just turning a biased blind eye to it. Don't blame you. As for the ages listen man I said look like. I can draw an infant and call him George and say he's 75 years old. But if he looks like an infant, well he looks like an infant. They can stamp whatever ages you like on the characters. They looks like they're 15 and girls. All I'm saying. By all means waste your time posting another chart listing the official ages of all the characters. It's fantastic but they still look like they're 15 and girly. I wasn't saying that Basara is girly per se. But simply the trend began there. Again I can see that you are putting a lot of time and effort into your replies and they're very well thought out and well structured. I love the charts and specific citing of specific acts committed by specific characters. I applaud you but it doesn't change my opinion. I think I struck a nerve with you and if so sorry man but I guess deal with it. This is the Internet. Not everyone shares your opinion and everyone gets to post about  it.  Continue to enjoy your show. I just don't and won't. That's all. 

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Idk about Roy having negative traits... He drinked quite a few, but I cant call any improper conduct. Sure he is overconfident about flirting and shows some physical affection in public but I cant say he ever crossed a line there.  When he was alone,  we could se he was not only an ace,  ice commander and had a warmer personality. 

Isamu was more forward oriented and I could debate some of his moral. 

Ozma was some sort of more battle aggressive roy. 

I liked the Alto charcter... The message i got is that when war is near you, you will become someone else. 

What I missed in Delta was the decision and determination that characters portrayed in and out the cockpit. 

(Note: today public has become more sensitive,  so i dont question we dont have playboys anymore, but clearly some traits were missing in delta) 

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7 minutes ago, RealJayDee said:

Idk about Roy having negative traits... He drinked quite a few, but I cant call any improper conduct. Sure he is overconfident about flirting and shows some physical affection in public but I cant say he ever crossed a line there.  When he was alone,  we could se he was not only an ace,  ice commander and had a warmer personality. 

Isamu was more forward oriented and I could debate some of his moral. 

Ozma was some sort of more battle aggressive roy. 

I liked the Alto charcter... The message i got is that when war is near you, you will become someone else. 

What I missed in Delta was the decision and determination that characters portrayed in and out the cockpit. 

(Note: today public has become more sensitive,  so i dont question we dont have playboys anymore, but clearly some traits were missing in delta) 

I would agree with 100% of this. I'm very salty and this was probably communicated better than my posts. It seems like I'm harping on the characters appeareances but I'm really more disappointed by them overall. Everything. Their personalities their decision making. Just a bunch of 2d cardboard stereotype characters. And not good or interesting stereotypes either. Just bland. Such a shame. None of these characters has any remarkable traits. Nobody will care about any of them 35 years from now. But I'll bet they'll still remembwr Roy Fokker 70 years from Macross' original air date. I'm really worried about Macross' future direction after this. 

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21 minutes ago, RealJayDee said:

Idk about Roy having negative traits... He drinked quite a few, but I cant call any improper conduct. Sure he is overconfident about flirting and shows some physical affection in public but I cant say he ever crossed a line there.  When he was alone,  we could se he was not only an ace,  ice commander and had a warmer personality. 

His bad traits aren't necessarily things that translate well... quite a bit of his behavior that'd be a bit rude or offensive in Japan gets a pass in the west because we have different social conventions for public decorum.  DYRL? played his bad points up a bit, showing his Japanese colleagues finding his advice on their personal lives and his womanizing upsetting, and his drinking and recklessness also causing problems (leading to his death).

 

21 minutes ago, RealJayDee said:

What I missed in Delta was the decision and determination that characters portrayed in and out the cockpit. 

Honestly, I think a big part of the problem there is not so much the characters themselves as it is the story's overwhelming emphasis on Walkure.  The pilots were out-of-focus so much that it was only really Hayate who got to show his determination.

 

10 minutes ago, spacemanoeuvres said:

Just keep buying Macross toys and they will keep making commercials for them (some will be better than others) :)

Don't forget the albums... Macross has always been a music-driven metaseries.

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11 minutes ago, jenius said:

I think the farther we get away from being 16-18 year old boys, the easier it becomes too complain that they don't fit our stereotypes of older manly men.

That's a very good point lol

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On 2/15/2018 at 7:56 AM, SuperDimensionalDave said:

This new series better be good. I see a trend I'm not liking after watching a bit of Macross Dullta. Every Macross has Idol / Idols, music as a weapon, transforming mechs and a love triangle. The thing I see shifting is men becoming girls.  It started with Basara in 7 and continued into Frontier with Alto the cross dresser (nevertheless I liked 7 and Frontier) but Dullta everyone is a girl. Even the "guys". That's not why I do not like (or at least not entirely why) Dullta but it didn't help. Where are the real men?!?  Where are the drunken womanizing insanely heroic 5 o'clock shadowed men. You know the ones who look like they've gone thru puberty. If this new Macross series isn't good I might just have to stick with buying the toys only and avoid the anime like mind herpes. Cautiously optimistic...

I don't get how Basara seems like a woman to you. I actually think of him as being very masculine. He has very not talk much or share his feelings attitude that men in early Hollywood movies had.

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2 hours ago, Sandman said:

I don't get how Basara seems like a woman to you. I actually think of him as being very masculine. He has very not talk much or share his feelings attitude that men in early Hollywood movies had.

I don't think he is womanly per se. I said that the trend started with his character. I'm fine with Basara. Won't say I liked him but I didn't hate him either. Call me apathetic towards him. But since then we got Frontier which moved slightly closer to the trend of the beautiful boy characters with Alto who is effeminate and Bobby who is gay. Mind you I actually liked Bobby. He was funny and kind of a badass behind the wheel of the Quarter. Might be one of my favorite Bridge Bunnies. Now skip to Dullta and the entire cast (okay not all but MOST) is Bishonen. Bobby the gay Bridge bunny from frontier could drag any one of them outside behind the woodshed and give him a good old fashioned a** whooping. They'd probably get off on it too. And that pathetic excuse for a love triangle?  It was like watching painful High School hair pulling and love note passing. Now I hear the discussions of the new series coming and people speculating that the idols are a "boy band" and the fact is that I am putting a bit of stock in this theory. Looking at this progression towards the Macross beautiful boys I'm thinking this might not be far off. And it worries me. Greatly. What worries men more though is just how dull and boring Dullta was. Just lazy lazy writing and directing. The animation was great and mecha designs were fabulous and the music was good. I guess to me as an anime it was abysmal. But as a commercial to sell toys and music CDs and downloads it was a success. And that makes money. So I'm concerned that this is what we'll continue to get.   All Macross' exist to make money and sell toys and whatever else hey can slap the brand name on. But they were entertaining at same time. This was not entertaining at all to me. 

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Yeah I agree with some of what you are saying and concerns. Delta was the first series since the original that I watched in real time (each episode as they came out).  I would get excited to watch every week. Then after episode 13 it was followed by disappointment. Every week I continued to be excited with hope that this would be a good episode. Unfortunately that didn't happen. Hopefully they have learned from their mistakes and will improve for this new series.

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31 minutes ago, Sandman said:

Yeah I agree with some of what you are saying and concerns. Delta was the first series since the original that I watched in real time (each episode as they came out).  I would get excited to watch every week. Then after episode 13 it was followed by disappointment. Every week I continued to be excited with hope that this would be a good episode. Unfortunately that didn't happen. Hopefully they have learned from their mistakes and will improve for this new series.

Brother I'm right there with you hopin' my man!  I rewatched all 5 Mac Zero last night after not watching for several years. Man I forgot just how good it was. I needed a good classic Macross fix to rinse away this new crap. 

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19 minutes ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

Brother I'm right there with you hopin' my man!  I rewatched all 5 Mac Zero last night after not watching for several years. Man I forgot just how good it was. I needed a good classic Macross fix to rinse away this new crap. 

But Zero was terrible. All the writing and story issues you have with Delta, Zero also revels in. So this...

1 hour ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

What worries men more though is just how dull and boring Dullta was. Just lazy lazy writing and directing.

...rings especially untrue. What bothers you most isn't how dull, boring, or lazily-written/directed Delta was, it's that the characters didn't conform to your narrow view of gender and sexual roles.

In which case, own your opinion. No need to hide it behind other criticism. Just lay it out there. Other people have, and the forums haven't come crashing down because of it.

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1 minute ago, kajnrig said:

But Zero was terrible. All the writing and story issues you have with Delta, Zero also revels in. So this...

...rings especially untrue. What bothers you most isn't how dull, boring, or lazily-written/directed Delta was, it's that the characters didn't conform to your narrow view of gender and sexual roles.

In which case, own your opinion. No need to hide it behind other criticism. Just lay it out there. Other people have, and the forums haven't come crashing down because of it.

Zero was shorter, and much more action-filled with amazing eye-candy. It had issues, but any dullness was bookended on both ends by something spectacular and didn't last too long.

Excuses a lot of story issues.

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6 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

But Zero was terrible. All the writing and story issues you have with Delta, Zero also revels in. So this...

...rings especially untrue. What bothers you most isn't how dull, boring, or lazily-written/directed Delta was, it's that the characters didn't conform to your narrow view of gender and sexual roles.

In which case, own your opinion. No need to hide it behind other criticism. Just lay it out there. Other people have, and the forums haven't come crashing down because of it.

Whoa whoa Capt. Butthurt I have laid it out there. I said that very clearly. It's just not solely that despite your attempts to try and convince me otherwise. And if I'm not onboard with the trendy and hip view of liberal liquid genders thing that doesn't mean I have a narrow view of gender or sexual roles. It's just means that I prefer men that look and act like men. And women that look and act like women.  I know that is an outdated concept nowadays but I give Zero F's. Not apologizing for or hiding that buddy.   Bobby from Frontier doesn't fit my "narrow view" but I enjoyed his character because he was written well and interesting. That is sadly missing from Dullta. And I didn't say Zero was great. Just good. And it was and is good. To me. Not great, not perfect. Lots of "issues" with it. My opinion. Yours is clearly differing. No need to start a war over it or break the internet. Why are you so angry?

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1 hour ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

It's just not solely that despite your attempts to try and convince me otherwise.

I... wasn't, but alright.

Quote

Not apologizing for or hiding that buddy.   Bobby from Frontier doesn't fit my "narrow view" but I enjoyed his character because he was written well and interesting. That is sadly missing from Dullta. And I didn't say Zero was great. Just good. And it was and is good. To me. Not great, not perfect. Lots of "issues" with it. My opinion. Yours is clearly differing. No need to start a war over it or break the internet. Why are you so angry?

Who said I was angry? I'm trying to make sense of your criticism about the show, and am noticing that despite your repeated attempts to frame some of your criticisms as less pressing than others...

3 hours ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

What worries men more though is just how dull and boring Dullta was. Just lazy lazy writing and directing.

...you continuously come back to specifically gender role and sexuality as reasons why the more recent Macross shows are not just not to your taste, but bad.

You bring up Frontier, and even though you say that you like it overall, the only things you dislike about it that you deign to mention are that its main character is pretty and one of its supporting characters is gay. In the case of Delta, you say that the biggest reason why you dislike Delta is because of its shoddy writing and dull characters (no argument there), but the other reason (and the one you spend more digital real estate on) is because it has a large cast of handsome/pretty males.

Then you bring up Zero and position it as a direct contrast to "this new crap," even though it largely shares the same storytelling and character faults as Delta. The only way in which it is a direct contrast to those two is that it doesn't have a bishounen aesthetic and an openly gay character.

And even when it comes to speculation, your opinion about a future show's quality hinges not on any significant story details or character profiles, but on whether the characters are in a boy band.

3 hours ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

Now I hear the discussions of the new series coming and people speculating that the idols are a "boy band" and the fact is that I am putting a bit of stock in this theory. Looking at this progression towards the Macross beautiful boys I'm thinking this might not be far off. And it worries me. Greatly.

So to say that what worries you more in a Macross show is the quality of its story and characters isn't accurate. What IS accurate is that what worries you more, or at least what worries you enough to express it, is whether the characters in a story conform to your, yes, narrow ideas of gender roles. I just wanted to clarify that.

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1 hour ago, kajnrig said:

\But Zero was terrible. All the writing and story issues you have with Delta, Zero also revels in.

1 hour ago, Sanity is Optional said:

Zero was shorter, and much more action-filled with amazing eye-candy. It had issues, but any dullness was bookended on both ends by something spectacular and didn't last too long.

If anything, Macross Zero's writing was substantially worse than Delta's. 

Whatever its flaws, Delta was a story you could actually follow.  Zero's plot was a nonsensical tangle of pseudo-mystical allegory, kooky tribal ancient aliens superstitions, and a quick and dirty macguffin excuse to justify having VFs and things blowing up.  The largely plot-irrelevant bits about things blowing up are the only parts anyone remembers.  You could ask a room full of die-hard Macross fans to summarize the key points of the story, and I'd be prepared to bet that (without cheating) none of them would produce anything that remotely resembled the official plot summary in Chronicle.

This whole "I hate the bishies" thing is gettin' outta hand tho... probably best to let it go.

 

37 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

And even when it comes to speculation, your opinion about a future show's quality hinges not on any significant story details or character profiles, but on whether the characters are in a boy band.

If someone's going pre-judge the show based solely on what kind of group is performing the music, rather than the quality of the music, the writing, design, direction, etc., then they aren't much of a fan are they?  At least give the show a chance before proclaiming it to be crap.  People pissed and moaned on here and all across the internet about how Walkure in the Macross Delta series looked superficially like something out of Pretty Cure... and then they listened to the music and went "hey this is pretty good".  I mean, hell, I didn't care for Basara but that Heart and Soul duet with Emilia?  Perfection.

We know literally nothing about the new show at present, so we are WAY too early to be making any assessments of its quality or lack thereof.

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13 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You could ask a room full of die-hard Macross fans to summarize the key points of the story, and I'd be prepared to bet that (without cheating) none of them would produce anything that remotely resembled the official plot summary in Chronicle.

Shin is fighting the Unification War(?), gets shot down by Nora near the island of Mayan (always hated that name, btw, like the deliberate invocation of ancient Maya had me scratching my head for years wondering what the connection was when there wasn't any), and while there gets saved by sisters Sara and and Mao Nome. Turns out the two share a connection with and can communicate with the Protoculture ship(?) lying dormant beneath the waters surrounding the island, which gives them their mystical powers...? That connection stems from symbiotic organisms in their blood (fold bacteria?) which is why interacting with the outside world is forbidden (thus precluding the possibility of donating blood for science as Sara does to that old guy that one scene).

The UN and Anti-UN forces fight over the Protoculture ship, destroying the island in the process, with the Anti-UN eventually getting the head of the ship and reuniting it with the body. Apparently the ship was buried here by the Protoculture in order to determine whether humanity had evolved to a properly harmonious species? If so, it would give them tech for interstellar travel, and if not, it would destroy them? Anti-UN uses Sara to bring it to life, and it, reading Sara's thoughts, decides on the latter, starting with those around it.

It kills indiscriminately and Shin finds his way to it and to Sara through the power of love, but not before the UN decides to Monster!nuke it. It and Sara save Shin and Mayan and everyone else by trapping the explosion and folding away to... somewhere? Another dimension? Shin splashes around a bit, then decides to follow it.

How close was that?

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1 minute ago, kajnrig said:

How close was that?

You were good up until about halfway thru the first paragraph's second sentence.  Your third sentence is stuff that wasn't even conceived yet when the OVA was released.  The second sentence in the second paragraph is pretty much right tho.  The last paragraph is mostly right, 'cept for that last sentence.  (Probably not a coincidence that the bits you were most accurate on were the ones tied to the action sequences, the parts that weren't wrapped up in weird ancient aliens mysticism like a burrito made from Giorgio Tsukalos.)

That was the problem with Zero... the writers were so in love with this mysticism and the mytho-historical significance of the ancient Protoculture's interventions on Mayan that they kind of forgot to actually explain anything clearly.  Dr. Hasford and Dr. Turner were kind of supposed to be Mr. and Mrs. Exposition, but they didn't do a very good job and Nutuk's a particularly unhelpful narrator too since he views that history through the lens of his culture's religion.  It didn't become a slog because it was broken up by those pulse-poundingly fast-paced VF vs. VF action sequences... but after them, it's like "wait, what was this show about again?"

Delta's plot is a lot more straightforward, and it flowed really well until the second half... like it's been outlined as a compact, 13 episode series.  Then it had something that was an unmistakable ENDING, and forgot to stop.  It changed gears with an almost audible clunk and continued a much slower pace and with a lot less plot progress per episode, and with them reusing episode ideas and having whole episode exposition dumps and a totally irrelevant flashback episode just brought it all to a screeching halt while doing nothing to more fully develop the cast or the story.  The writing in Delta's first half was a buttery smooth test drive on a private road... the second half had more starts and stops than bumper cars.  Quite a lot of its ills are, IMO, that they were so focused on Walkure that they kind of forgot to develop everyone else in a cast that was already unusually big.  Until the reveal that the New UN Forces had bombed Carlyle out of this dimension instead of Windermere doing it themselves, there was literally NOTHING to hint at why the Aerial Knights weren't just space racists making sh*t up as an excuse for some empire-building.  It wasn't until the White Knight of the Black Wing manga that they actually developed them as characters to a point where it was clear that there were actual REASONS for their fanatical hatred of the New UN Government and they became as sympathetic as the Zentradi or the Protodeviln.  If it's down to the supplemental materials to develop characters to the point where the audience can care about them, your show's badly written.  If you don't develop your plot-critical characters at all, like how Mikumo was just "the rude purple mystery girl" until like three episodes before the end, then that's indicative of sloppy writing.  Same as if a show were nobody can tell what the actual plot is, like Zero.

 

A truly great Macross series has writing that flows naturally, that shows rather than tells, and develops the cast into characters you can actually relate to as people.  That's one thing I'd really like to see from the new series.  So much is excusable if the characters are likeable and the story flows well.  Like what's been said by some of my friends aboard about the movie version of Macross Delta... it flows better, so the other problems are less noticeable.  We know they've got no problems doing main characters who are easy to like, Delta had the almost instantly-likeable Hayate Immelmann and Freyja Wion, and the defrosting ice queen Mirage Jenius.  They just gotta remember to do the supporting cast and antagonists too!

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2 hours ago, kajnrig said:

I... wasn't, but alright.

Who said I was angry? I'm trying to make sense of your criticism about the show, and am noticing that despite your repeated attempts to frame some of your criticisms as less pressing than others...

...you continuously come back to specifically gender role and sexuality as reasons why the more recent Macross shows are not just not to your taste, but bad.

You bring up Frontier, and even though you say that you like it overall, the only things you dislike about it that you deign to mention are that its main character is pretty and one of its supporting characters is gay. In the case of Delta, you say that the biggest reason why you dislike Delta is because of its shoddy writing and dull characters (no argument there), but the other reason (and the one you spend more digital real estate on) is because it has a large cast of handsome/pretty males.

Then you bring up Zero and position it as a direct contrast to "this new crap," even though it largely shares the same storytelling and character faults as Delta. The only way in which it is a direct contrast to those two is that it doesn't have a bishounen aesthetic and an openly gay character.

And even when it comes to speculation, your opinion about a future show's quality hinges not on any significant story details or character profiles, but on whether the characters are in a boy band.

So to say that what worries you more in a Macross show is the quality of its story and characters isn't accurate. What IS accurate is that what worries you more, or at least what worries you enough to express it, is whether the characters in a story conform to your, yes, narrow ideas of gender roles. I just wanted to clarify that.

I don't know man. Looks like you're spending way too much time and effort analyzing Just exactly what I didn't like most. The narrow gender views or the writing, directing or plot.  While doing an awful lot of judgemental finger pointing. It seems to me like you subscribe to the dominant liberal view that if you aren't on the gender bending train that is ok with sex changes, cross dressing and the like then you are a racist, fascist hate monger. I love that attitude. Sorry but there is a middle ground. Yes I prefer men that look and act like men and women that act like women. No I don't want the next Macross to be dominated by men that look like women and act like women. Yes I liked Zero and I disagree that it was duller and more poorly written than Delta. My opinion buddy. Yes it was convoluted but at least they put thought into it. Dullta could have been written by High school kids. In fact I believe it was. I think they scanned the internet for fanfics and pulled the outline for the "plot" off of that. My opinions my man. Feel free to disagree but you can stop accusing me of having narrow views on sexuality and masculinity. That's simply your opinion. My views are simply oldschool and traditional and outdated by these liberal new generation standards. Too bad. Deal with it. If I have to deal with Mr./Mrs. Bruce Jenner getting a sex change and being voted Woman of the Year then you have to deal with me saying that I want my male characters to look and act like just that. Men!  And I just read your summary of Zero. I get it, you didn't like it. That's fine my man, I don't care. Why do you care so much about exactly why I didn't like Dullta?  I made it very clear. If you disagree then so be it. Remove thy beak from my heart already. Go troll someone else and stop whining. 

Edited by SuperDimensionalDave
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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I mean, hell, I didn't care for Basara but that Heart and Soul duet with Emilia?  Perfection.

Without a doubt, I gotta give you that one.  I agree with every word here... Perfection

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16 minutes ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

I don't know man. Looks like you're spending way too much time and effort analyzing

It's a discussion forum, and I like to discuss. I dunno what else to say.

16 minutes ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

It seems to me like you subscribe to the dominant liberal view that if you aren't on the gender bending train that is ok with sex changes, cross dressing and the like then you are a racist, fascist hate monger.

That's projecting a bit. I don't think you're a racist, fascist hate monger. I certainly hope you aren't. The only things I know about you are what you've said, and what you've said conflicts with other things that you've said. But then who doesn't contradict themselves from time to time.

If you really want to know, I think you're being a bit intellectually dishonest when you say that gender roles is the lesser criticism you have of Frontier, Delta, and the upcoming Macross show. I think you consider it the graver sin, judging by how much you talk about it and what you have to say about it. I think you could tolerate Delta's shoddy writing the way you tolerate Zero's shoddy writing if only the men and boys were more "manly."

16 minutes ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

Feel free to disagree but you can stop accusing me of having narrow views on sexuality and masculinity.

Perhaps "narrow" does have a bit of an accusatory tone to it, doesn't it? My apologies for the tone, but what else should I call it when what you define (or view) as being appropriately "masculine" is only a (narrow) fraction of the larger body of experience that has ever been considered masculine?

You say that Alto's being pretty and playing a woman in kabuki makes him less "manly." But that conclusion can only be reached if you limit, intentionally or otherwise, the definition of masculinity. Do the Japanese just not know what masculinity is, that they consider his prettiness and kabuki roles irrelevant to his gender?

16 minutes ago, SuperDimensionalDave said:

that's just my opinion / that's just your opinion

True, but... we're on a discussion forum. There wouldn't be much to discuss if all we did was state our opinions.

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5 hours ago, kajnrig said:

But Zero was terrible. All the writing and story issues you have with Delta, Zero also revels in. So this...

 

Nope.

I think you're somehow really overstretching something that ain't there...

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Macross zero...  I loved it,  and maybe is my favorite episode in the whole macross series. 

Why? 

It was really focused on pew pew pew and swooshing. 

It was like 'hey fans! This is a short short story (its 6 ep long, some slack is granted) of how you went from f 14s to VFs

We will put some love triangle here,  and protoculture there (that goes nowhere...)   

It was a honest story... No idols,  no macross cities, no colonies... precious vf0s and sv51s flying over the ocean, just because. 

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  • azrael changed the title to New Macross TV Series in 20xx (sometime this decade)
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