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Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 1 - READ 1st POST

Mission 1: Prologue on the Battlefield   134 members have voted

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263 posts in this topic

You and me both. I was all set to be disappointed, but damn did they deliver, or what!?

Oh yes, Mr. Kawamori absolutely delivered the goods this time around.

I remember back when Macross Frontier first started airing, I wasn't really sold on the series until the one-two punch of the fourth and fifth episodes had Alto grow the beard (metaphorically speaking) and took Sheryl from Queen B*tch to Defrosting Ice Queen. My first run-in with Macross 7 and the wandering, weak plot that we got in Macross Zero had left me kind of up in the air as to whether Macross still had greatness left in it. Frontier absolutely sold me on Macross's potential for future excellence and, IMO, Macross Delta seems to be set to continue living up to that high standard. I think I've warmed to Hayate, Freyja, and Mirage a good deal faster than I did to Alto, Sheryl, and Ranka. In general, they seem to be a little less angst-y than their predecessors.

(Between Macross Delta, Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans, and the 30th anniversary of Five Star Stories, this is shaping up to be a fantastic year for mecha... and a terrible, TERRIBLE year for my wallet.)

Agreed. Though just for clarity, in the frontier love triangle you're talking about Ranka being the hanger on, and Sheryl being the serious contender? That's how I took your meaning. As for the two ladies, well, I don't know which ones it will be, definitely Freyja, but I don't know if it will be Mirage or one of the other Walkure at this point. Unless it's already been confirmed. I'm definitely a fan of Mirage, she's my kind of girl.

Yeah... the unbalanced love triangle was my biggest problem with Macross Frontier. Alto was as indecisive as you'd expect a teenage boy to be for most of the series, but it definitely felt like the participation on the part of the girls was uneven. Sheryl was the one putting in all the effort and having all the moments, while Ranka's only involvement for most of the series seemed to be lurking on the periphery so she could get upset whenever Sheryl decided to steal a march on her and get closer to Alto. Freyja Wion seems to be a lot more upbeat and driven, so I'm betting she shows a more initiative than Ranka did. I'm still rooting for Mirage though... and strongly suspect her stiffness will set her up to be a tsundere type.

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Girls jumping out of valkyries and having sailor moon transformations, floating around the battlefield and doing ridiculous things like riding on valkyries by simply holding onto a cord just kills the whole thing for me.

Even Hayate dancing around in his work destroid or the "busted" VF-171 that by some miracle transformed without a hitch just had me rolling my eyes.

I'll still buy the valkyries, but i'll probably take my sweet time watching this show.

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I really liked the episode, and I really liked Ikenai Borderline. It's catchy and it sold me on the music.

I remember back when Macross Frontier first started airing, I wasn't really sold on the series until the one-two punch of the fourth and fifth episodes had Alto grow the beard (metaphorically speaking) and took Sheryl from Queen B*tch to Defrosting Ice Queen. My first run-in with Macross 7 and the wandering, weak plot that we got in Macross Zero had left me kind of up in the air as to whether Macross still had greatness left in it. Frontier absolutely sold me on Macross's potential for future excellence and, IMO, Macross Delta seems to be set to continue living up to that high standard. I think I've warmed to Hayate, Freyja, and Mirage a good deal faster than I did to Alto, Sheryl, and Ranka. In general, they seem to be a little less angst-y than their predecessors.

I like the new characters a lot as well, I found it easy to care about them. M7 is something I'd only recommend to a Macross die-hard, and Zero was...odd. Frontier and now delta seem to be a bit more solid. To be fair, Alto had more reason to be angst-y than most characters. He was chafing under the expectations of his family and his desires, and had a difficult time finding a middle ground. I think Sheryl turned out to be a bit deeper and more complex a character than people were expecting. I agree though, this seems to be a better set up with stronger characters.

Yeah... the unbalanced love triangle was my biggest problem with Macross Frontier. Alto was as indecisive as you'd expect a teenage boy to be for most of the series, but it definitely felt like the participation on the part of the girls was uneven. Sheryl was the one putting in all the effort and having all the moments, while Ranka's only involvement for most of the series seemed to be lurking on the periphery so she could get upset whenever Sheryl decided to steal a march on her and get closer to Alto. Freyja Wion seems to be a lot more upbeat and driven, so I'm betting she shows a more initiative than Ranka did. I'm still rooting for Mirage though... and strongly suspect her stiffness will set her up to be a tsundere type.

Yeah, I can agree with all of that. Ranka seemed to lack confidence, and it seems like Freyja has that in spades. Many people have made a strong case for Mirage as the other point to the triangle, so assuming that's the case, I'm rooting for Mirage. As for the tsundere part, you're probably right.

Girls jumping out of valkyries and having sailor moon transformations, floating around the battlefield and doing ridiculous things like riding on valkyries by simply holding onto a cord just kills the whole thing for me.

Even Hayate dancing around in his work destroid or the "busted" VF-171 that by some miracle transformed without a hitch just had me rolling my eyes.

I'll still buy the valkyries, but i'll probably take my sweet time watching this show.

And that's fine. Bear in mind that people do silly stuff at work all the time. I'll fully admit that I have done silly things when given half a chance. I tried to do donuts in a HMMWV just to see if I could (I couldn't), and I danced around being silly in body armor, when it wasn't entirely appropriate. It's not exactly the same, but the general idea is the same. As for the Sailor moon transformations, it could be worse, they could take up full minutes each (as in sailor moon).

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And that's fine. Bear in mind that people do silly stuff at work all the time. I'll fully admit that I have done silly things when given half a chance. I tried to do donuts in a HMMWV just to see if I could (I couldn't), and I danced around being silly in body armor, when it wasn't entirely appropriate. It's not exactly the same, but the general idea is the same. As for the Sailor moon transformations, it could be worse, they could take up full minutes each (as in sailor moon).

I think Duymon is okay with silly but realistic-ish. Like what you do at work. Holding onto a plane doing hi-g maneuvers and having a transformation and movement of the busted valk be so smooth is another thing. Those moments feel too Basquash and Aquarion to me. I'm sure some of those "magical tech" costumes the Walkure are most likely wearing will explains some of the physical stunts they're able to pull off.
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I think Duymon is okay with silly but realistic-ish. Like what you do at work. Holding onto a plane doing hi-g maneuvers and having a transformation and movement of the busted valk be so smooth is another thing. Those moments feel too Basquash and Aquarion to me. I'm sure some of those "magical tech" costumes the Walkure are most likely wearing will explains some of the physical stunts they're able to pull off.

Let's not forget that Macross could be like other sci-fi universes, perhaps they are wearing gripper gloves and gripper shoes that adhere them to the valk, and we should also not forget the Barnstormers of old, who did similar things, albeit with slower aircraft. There's definitely precedent for such theatrics and stunts.

The VF-171, was busted up, but who knows how bad. The guys were talking about getting a crane to move it, but perhaps that's because there was no one to operate it. Aircraft in the past have flown with worse damage (F-15's and A10's flying home on one wing, for example).

I can see how it could be a bit of a stretch, and that's why I'm not jumping down his throat (apologies Duymon, if I sounded like I was) about it. Frankly I kinda liked it, who's to say what workplace shenanigans would occur if we had giant robots...

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For the idols jumping around and stuff It may be somewhat silly but it's not at all a massive leap past things we've seen previously:

Lets say to treat the Var syndrome they find it more effective to have both proximity a visual aspect. We've got the holodancers and drone thingies and spectacle. Given that, there's probably some effectiveness in having the singers be visible as people too. It makes it more authentic to the obervers? Who knows it's spirita/foldquartz scifi.

Sure, you can't just plop down some idols to sing (even if they're highly trained, like these seem to be...I welcome a Freyja-at-boot-camp episode) in the middle of the gunfire. But we've got fold-wave-singing amplification and the precedent of flying non-combatant idol singers into combat before with Frontier (and 7 but in a different way).

But we know Ex-Gear were/are capable of largely similar mobility to what we saw with Walkure. They're fast, they're strong, they're durable.

So if you mush the holograms and ex-gear type technology into the idol-fighting suit and add in some fancy pin-point barrier shielding drones, there you go!

Besides that, not every Var outbreak is necessarily going to be a mecha fight. What if more like an active shooter situation in a mall or something, against people only on foot? You don't want to come and just smash things up with a Valk - you need a proportionate response.

If you get all the way past the previous iterations with your suspension of disbelief intact, I don't see any reason for it to break here.

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The full episode wasn't horrible, but there is just so much that happens that just doesn't make sense. And, of course, the totally out of place magic girl stuff. I'm not sure I can stick through an entire season of this.

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Let's not forget that Macross could be like other sci-fi universes, perhaps they are wearing gripper gloves and gripper shoes that adhere them to the valk, and we should also not forget the Barnstormers of old, who did similar things, albeit with slower aircraft. There's definitely precedent for such theatrics and stunts.

The VF-171, was busted up, but who knows how bad. The guys were talking about getting a crane to move it, but perhaps that's because there was no one to operate it. Aircraft in the past have flown with worse damage (F-15's and A10's flying home on one wing, for example).

I can see how it could be a bit of a stretch, and that's why I'm not jumping down his throat (apologies Duymon, if I sounded like I was) about it. Frankly I kinda liked it, who's to say what workplace shenanigans would occur if we had giant robots...

I believe they requested for the identity lock on the 171 to be removed so they could easily move it out of there under its own power and thats when Hayate took his opportunity to hop in.

As for the reason why its still in relatively good condition, the way I see it is the Valks are wayyy tougher than their pilots. Pilot of the 171 was put out of commission and incapacitated and was pulled out of his cockpit by emergency teams leaving an almost perfectly fine 171 open for anyone. Remember when Alto was knocked unconscience in the movie when he was in the YF-29, its like that but Im guessing it felt more severe to the 171 pilot since they dont have inertia dampeners.

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As for the reason why its still in relatively good condition, the way I see it is the Valks are wayyy tougher than their pilots. Pilot of the 171 was put out of commission and incapacitated and was pulled out of his cockpit by emergency teams leaving an almost perfectly fine 171 open for anyone. Remember when Alto was knocked unconscience in the movie when he was in the YF-29, its like that but Im guessing it felt more severe to the 171 pilot since they dont have inertia dampeners.

Aside from some scuff marks and such, the only thing I noticed was the big dent in the chest armor (possibly pushing the cockpit down enough that it's exposed to the open air).

Edited by kajnrig
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Admiral Gamlin, of course. :)

God, I hope so!
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Somehow I want to see Vajra help in someway being immune to Var since they aren't a Protoculture seeded race.

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Admiral Gamlin, of course. :)

Only if he has a set of bridge bunnies who flirt with him that he acts all awkward around to make old man Exsedol be proud. Edited by d3v
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I still can't get over the Sailor Moon transformation... <_<

Actually, I can live with those now. A careful viewing with many freeze-frames showed that all the actual "superhuman" feats are performed by Mikumo alone. The other girls do pretty much what Sheryl and Ranka could already do by Frontier movies, except now they do it in the open. Oh, and they play to a magical girl image in the process, but so did movie!Ranka.

Mikumo can well be enhanced. Cybord, android, whatnot. Or just a product of years of mad training, think a Jackie Chan character.

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A careful viewing with many freeze-frames showed that all the actual "superhuman" feats are performed by Mikumo alone. The other girls do pretty much what Sheryl and Ranka could already do by Frontier movies, except now they do it in the open. Oh, and they play to a magical girl image in the process, but so did movie!Ranka

Just because you guys keep repeating this isn't going to make it true. The holographic costume changes we've seen before in Macross were natural and realistic. What we see in Delta is straight up magical girl transformation. They are definitely NOT the same.

This is the problem with the first episode of Delta: so much in it is not plausible. It's outside of my ability to suspend my disbelief. It's not grounded at all. Frontier largely avoided this problem (with a few notable exceptions).

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Just because you guys keep repeating this isn't going to make it true. The holographic costume changes we've seen before in Macross were natural and realistic. What we see in Delta is straight up magical girl transformation. They are definitely NOT the same.

This is the problem with the first episode of Delta: so much in it is not plausible. It's outside of my ability to suspend my disbelief. It's not grounded at all. Frontier largely avoided this problem (with a few notable exceptions).

The technology used is the same holographic costume change tech used in Frontier, but of course the ones in Delta are simply designed to look like a magical girl transformation. it is just that how it looks does not sit well with some viewers even though in-universe it is possible given the technology.

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Girls jumping out of valkyries and having sailor moon transformations, floating around the battlefield and doing ridiculous things like riding on valkyries by simply holding onto a cord just kills the whole thing for me.

I failed to notice that particilar moment with the cord. Could you hint at the timing and, importantly. the identity of the girl?

I mean, if it's Mikumo, it's fair game at this point. She seems established as, at the very least. an enhanced human. (Besides, there was Breetai and his open space feats back in 1982 - also a case of a "commander type" Zentradi or something, so not something every human or Zentradi would be able to do).

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Just because you guys keep repeating this isn't going to make it true. The holographic costume changes we've seen before in Macross were natural and realistic. What we see in Delta is straight up magical girl transformation. They are definitely NOT the same.

This is the problem with the first episode of Delta: so much in it is not plausible. It's outside of my ability to suspend my disbelief. It's not grounded at all. Frontier largely avoided this problem (with a few notable exceptions).

Excluding Mikumo for the moment, what is unplausible? The girls strike a pose and have a sparkly costume change creep through their body. They are presumably wearing holo-suits, so the only question is where the holographic projectors are, given that this is open space and not a specially prepared stage. A couple of drones could manage that, though? They can also do the shiny W thing by joining hands - something hidden in their sleeves, presumably. And they are trained in height jumping, so was movie!Sheryl.

Mikumo, yes, she pushes the boundaries. A lot. She can control a lot of drones with barely a move of the hand. She can withstand a direct massive rocket hit, protected only by a small force field, and not even get knocked out. I would expect an in-universe explanation. She might even be a robot, and anime robot girls were doing things like that back in 80s.

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I failed to notice that particilar moment with the cord. Could you hint at the timing and, importantly. the identity of the girl?

I mean, if it's Mikumo, it's fair game at this point. She seems established as, at the very least. an enhanced human. (Besides, there was Breetai and his open space feats back in 1982 - also a case of a "commander type" Zentradi or something, so not something every human or Zentradi would be able to do).

I used to be in on Cyborg Mikumo...but now I'm pretty sure she's a protodelvin.

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What's not plausible? A guy dancing around in a labor mecha as if it was weightless. Magical girls riding Valkyries as if inertia and g-forces didn't exist. Said girls also have a shielding technology that they can move on command, yet no one else outside of this special unit seems to have this tech. A single squadron of fighters taking out a planetary defense fleet, yet they are unable to dispatch four Valkyries on the planet's surface. Also, said fighters' pilots flying with no suits or helmets on, and without harnesses to keep them secure in their cockpits. Again, inertia and gravity seem to be completely disregarded. And to top it off, dancing mecha guy gets in a downed Valkyrie and all of a sudden he's moving it around like he's Neo.

Did I miss anything?

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Ummm... is this a bad time to point out that inertial dampers are Macross canon, and every VF we've seen in the last decade has them? Effectively, inertia DOESN'T exist.

Edited by JB0
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Ummm... is this a bad time to point out that inertial dampers are Macross canon, and every VF we've seen in the last decade has them? Effectively, inertia DOESN'T exist.

Except when a Valk gets shot, suffers a collision, or is otherwise acted upon by an outside force, then we see a reaction shot inside the cockpit of the pilot getting rocked around.

So, the girls riding around on the Valks have portable inertial dampeners? Does everyone have those? That would radically change life in 2067.

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What's not plausible? A guy dancing around in a labor mecha as if it was weightless. Magical girls riding Valkyries as if inertia and g-forces didn't exist. Said girls also have a shielding technology that they can move on command, yet no one else outside of this special unit seems to have this tech. A single squadron of fighters taking out a planetary defense fleet, yet they are unable to dispatch four Valkyries on the planet's surface. Also, said fighters' pilots flying with no suits or helmets on, and without harnesses to keep them secure in their cockpits. Again, inertia and gravity seem to be completely disregarded. And to top it off, dancing mecha guy gets in a downed Valkyrie and all of a sudden he's moving it around like he's Neo.

Did I miss anything?

- Hayate was able to dance around in that destroid/forklift because it wasnt weightless all that spinning takes weight transfer, and that civilian work destoid is most likely waayy lighter than one outfitted for combat, smaller furnace, lack of armor, no weapons, its just a Cheyene frame with forks in its arms. I do admit though that when he jumps and lands it seems that the pavement is made out of tough stuff.

- They have that shielding technology that they control with a computer implant in their fingernails because they are a highly specialized unit, Seal Team Six has a stealth Blackhawk at their disposal but yet no other unit has one.

- We dont really know for certain if it was only a single squadron the 262's didnt have a fold drive on them so the may have presumably folded in with their mothership that glasses guy was on. And even if they were only a single squadron, they were in Sv-262's which has performance on par or possibly superior to a YF-29 and YF-30

and those Valks are in whole different league when compared to cannon fodder VF-171's. And from what we know of these next generation of ICS equipped Valks is that they are more than capable with the right pilot to be absolutely devastating as heard from when the YF-24 Evolution piloted by Isamu Dyson was able to do just what the Aerial Knights did by himself in a trial run of the 24 Evo. Its like getting mad at Char for kicking ass in his Gelgoog and wondering why he cant beat Amuro in his Gundam its because the SV-262's and VF-31's are evenly matched and piloted by the best in the business.

- As for suitless 262 pilots, we really dont know enough about them to know what tech they use, the only thing we do know is that they do not have glass canopies but an armored shell with cameras to see out of for their cool as f**k 360 panoramic cockpit. And maybe because they dont run the risk of a canopy breach they forego helmets and their suits that they do wear could very well be G-suits just super-ornamental which is fitting given their whole culture of castles and whatnot.

- Like i said in my previous post Valkyries are built like tanks, they are way tougher than their pilots who in this case was a 171 pilot who was knocked out cold and pulled out by emergency crews on the ground. We've seen that it was an impact strong enough to dent the upper chest area but all its other systems and limbs were apparently running at full capacity and the 171's greatest strength isn't really its performance but its ease of use a reason why it was adopted as a frontline fighter over the VF-19's and 22's which were very difficult for the average pilot to fly. And Hayate tells us the controls are no different than his work destriod that he seemed to have mastered and the rest we saw on screen.

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What's not plausible? A guy dancing around in a labor mecha as if it was weightless.

A giant robot in Macross is highly agile and capable of human-like movement? How very unprecedented... :rolleyes:

Magical girls riding Valkyries as if inertia and g-forces didn't exist.

Also, said fighters' pilots flying with no suits or helmets on, and without harnesses to keep them secure in their cockpits. Again, inertia and gravity seem to be completely disregarded.

Yeah! To pull that off they'd have to have some kind of proven technology that could manipulate inertia in order to insulate a fighter from g-forces by converting that energy into another form and storing it. Some kind of inertia store converter, if you will. Y'know... kind of exactly like what was installed in the Queadluun-Rau, YF-21, VF-22, YF-24, Y/VF-25, Y/VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30.

Also, fighter pilots flying without a visibly-sealed flight suit and helmet? Madness! What kind of show would possibly have something like that on a regular basis...? You'd never see something like that all over Macross's original series, or at the finale of Macross Plus, or on a regular basis in Macross Frontier.

Since the advent of the virtual cockpit in Frontier, not seeing a pilot suit is no guarantee that they're not wearing one... and restraint systems have typically involved docking the backpack and/or shoulders of the pilot suit to the chair. Very few VFs have a traditional harness. Some supplement the suit connectors with a lap belt, but that's about it.

Speaking of virtual imaging... where's the magic? I see no sorcery here, sir. There's the ubiquitous holographic technology that we saw for the first time in Macross: Do You Remember Love?, and which has been shown to be portable and capable of some rather expansive effects from Macross II and Macross Plus on...

Said girls also have a shielding technology that they can move on command, yet no one else outside of this special unit seems to have this tech.

Energy shielding that can be re-positioned on command? A barrier that can be moved to for precision - dare I say pin-point - interception of enemy fire? Surely that is a new and unprecedented idea in Macross. No? Drat.

The only new wrinkle with the multidrones is that the barrier is generated by a multitude of smaller craft instead of one larger one... and who says Walkure/Chaos is the only user of this tech? They're the only ones we've seen so far, but that doesn't mean that it's unique to them. (Esp. likely, as we're told that the VF-31 is already a production aircraft.)

A single squadron of fighters taking out a planetary defense fleet, yet they are unable to dispatch four Valkyries on the planet's surface.

So... a small number of state-of-the-art craft are shown to seriously outmatch significantly older fighters, but have to fight on an even footing against other state-of-the-art fighters? Once again, hardly a new trope... we've already seen this in Macross Plus (YF-21 vs. VF-11), Macross 7 (Fz-109s vs. VF-11s, VF-19s vs. Fz-109s), and Macross Frontier (VF-25s, 27s, and 29s vs. VF-171s).

And to top it off, dancing mecha guy gets in a downed Valkyrie and all of a sudden he's moving it around like he's Neo.

I know, right? To pull that off, you'd have to have a highly proficient operator and the controls of a VF and a modern Destroid would have to be essentially the same.

We're explicitly two for two on that front... so what's the problem again?

Did I miss anything?

A great deal of context, apparently...

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Hayate being able to make a mech dance was foreshadowed during the start when he makes his work destroid dance.

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A giant robot in Macross is highly agile and capable of human-like movement? How very unprecedented... :rolleyes:

Yes, it is. He's not in a Valkyrie and he's not flying.

Yeah! To pull that off they'd have to have some kind of proven technology that could manipulate inertia in order to insulate a fighter from g-forces by converting that energy into another form and storing it. Some kind of inertia store converter, if you will. Y'know... kind of exactly like what was installed in the Queadluun-Rau, YF-21, VF-22, YF-24, Y/VF-25, Y/VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30.

I've already countered this argument, but I will again just for you. In Plus they went out of their way to show the effect of inirtia and g-forces on the pilots. It's the most realistic flying in the entire franchise. You have watched it, right? In Frontier the pilots are hooked into their cockpits through their ex-gear, but we regularly see them rocked around in it when acted upon by an external force.

Also, fighter pilots flying without a visibly-sealed flight suit and helmet? Madness! What kind of show would possibly have something like that on a regular basis...?

Uh. I never said anything about a sealed flight suit with helmet. And you show me a picture of Max with his helmet and atmospheric flight suit on, a picture of Isamu in his flight suit sans helmet because the visor got cracked, and a picture Brera in his virtual cockpit or whatever it is. The first two completely blow your argument, and the third proves my point about how ridiculous it is. The Windermere pilots aren't wearing ex-gear or helmets.

Energy shielding that can be re-positioned on command? A barrier that can be moved to for precision - dare I say pin-point - interception of enemy fire? Surely that is a new and unprecedented idea in Macross. No? Drat.

Way to totally misrepresent what I said. I'm not even going to respond to this because you chose to ignore the point I was making.

So... a small number of state-of-the-art craft are shown to seriously outmatch significantly older fighters, but have to fight on an even footing against other state-of-the-art fighters?

I said "fleet," not fighters. Have you actually read anything I've said at all? They took out the GARRISON FLEET of the planet, yet somehow four Valks with girls riding them were able to fend them off.

I know, right? To pull that off, you'd have to have a highly proficient operator and the controls of a VF and a modern Destroid would have to be essentially the same.

It's totally unbelievable, and you don't see anyone else move like he does. You've never seen anyone else move like that in Macross. Unless you want me to believe he's the greatest pilot who's ever lived, yet somehow he's been regulated to menial jobs running labor mecha. Is he Luke Skywalker?

A great deal of context, apparently

I'm not sure if your reading comprehension is really poor, or you are intentionally trying to antagonize me by ignoring or misrepresenting everything I say. Either way I am moving on from this discussion with you, because I am not going to get in a fight over a cartoon.

Edited by Duke Togo
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I normally don't agree with him, but I completely understand where Duke Togo is coming from. You guys have all these explanations and precedent and are so quick to jump down the throats of anyone who expresses their... vehement disapproval of what they've seen in Delta. There's a difference between fans, here. Some fans have a hard time suspending their disbelief when seeing what looks like a drastic departure from the tone and content of earlier series. The presentation screams out loud and appears to only dazzle the eyes, not to present a solid foundation of a story. I can say that alarms are going off in my head as I am watching this show. It's just too much; there's little content and world-building thus far and it seems like no effort is being made to appeal to the hard sci-fi crowd that has come to respect this franchise. All of this advanced technology has begun to advance Macross across the line from science-fiction to science-fantasy. Up to this point, the tech has been gradually introduced and has remained grounded in a loose framework of real-world physics. Everything gets explained and makes some sense. We just don't get that in the first episode of Delta.

That being said, I really really loved Macross Zero. Yes, I am aware that the aspects of mysticism and magic caused a lot of fans to generate disdain for that series. However, it was presented in such a way that this "power" was subtle; it was some mysterious essence hidden away from the eyes of modern man. It wasn't thrown in your face from the start. Rather, it was gradually integrated into the story as both the MC and audience learned more about this ancient... religion, for lack of a better term.

TL;DR, Delta is too flashy and it rubs some fans the wrong way. I think that the complaints could be appeased by changing the presentation a bit. I hope that the next few episodes restore some semblance of order and context to what we've seen thus far.

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I normally don't agree with him, but I completely understand where Duke Togo is coming from. You guys have all these explanations and precedent and are so quick to jump down the throats of anyone who expresses their... vehement disapproval of what they've seen in Delta. There's a difference between fans, here. Some fans have a hard time suspending their disbelief when seeing what looks like a drastic departure from the tone and content of earlier series.

Thank you, Frothy.

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Uh. I never said anything about a sealed flight suit with helmet. And you show me a picture of Max with his helmet and atmospheric flight suit on, a picture of Isamu in his flight suit sans helmet because the visor got cracked, and a picture Brera in his virtual cockpit or whatever it is. The first two completely blow your argument, and the third proves my point about how ridiculous it is. The Windermere pilots aren't wearing ex-gear or helmets.

Actually, Brera is wearing a helmet. You just don't see it because of the cockpit's holo system. IIRC, check one of the last episodes of the Frontier series (it's episode 23). However, he wasn't wearing one in the final battle of the SnT movie. I suspect that is so they can show him ripping out the implant from his head.

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Actually, Brera is wearing a helmet. You just don't see it because of the cockpit's holo system. IIRC, check one of the last episodes of the Frontier series (it's episode 23). However, he wasn't wearing one in the final battle of the SnT movie. I suspect that is so they can show him ripping out the implant from his head.

Totally forgot that. Even you mentioning it doesn't refresh my memory. But yeah, there ya go.

I want know what happens to the Windermere pilots during a cockpit breach in space. If they show one of them dying horribly when that happens and I'll totally give them credit for it.

Edited by Duke Togo
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Yes, it is. He's not in a Valkyrie and he's not flying.

Oh yes, because we've never seen mecha be agile on the ground... like the bloody pro-wrestling moves that Britai and Hikaru were pulling on each other.

I've already countered this argument, but I will again just for you. In Plus they went out of their way to show the effect of inirtia and g-forces on the pilots. It's the most realistic flying in the entire franchise. You have watched it, right? In Frontier the pilots are hooked into their cockpits through their ex-gear, but we regularly see them rocked around in it when acted upon by an external force.

You fondly imagine you've countered it... but that's not the same thing as actually countering it. ;)

In Macross Plus, they did show the effects of inertia and g-forces on the pilots... but we don't see anything even remotely that bad in the Macross Frontier series and movies even though those fighters are working with MUCH more thrust and maneuverability. They do show the pilots get rocked around a bit when the fighter is hit by multi-ton objects, etc., but in normal maneuvering we don't see anything like that. What we're shown in Delta is low-altitude, low-velocity maneuvers... almost like they're being careful not to over-exert the members of Walkure. Imagine that, eh?

Uh. I never said anything about a sealed flight suit with helmet. And you show me a picture of Max with his helmet and atmospheric flight suit on, a picture of Isamu in his flight suit sans helmet because the visor got cracked, and a picture Brera in his virtual cockpit or whatever it is. The first two completely blow your argument, and the third proves my point about how ridiculous it is. The Windermere pilots aren't wearing ex-gear or helmets.

Your contention is that the Aerial Knights are flying their fighters without flight suits or helmets... but you've missed the point in your attempt to reply to my statement.

As I indicated, there is no guarantee that us not seeing it means it isn't there. Brera looked exactly the same in his virtual cockpit regardless of whether or not he was wearing a helmet (and yes, he did go into combat without a helmet on several occasions, like the final battle sequence of the Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa film). Several pilots are shown operating VFs without a helmet, flight suit, or sans both. Basara, Mylene, Hikaru, Isamu, and Brera are just the easiest ones to name off the bat. What's being done here is not a departure from previous Macross shows. It's not even particularly unusual. :rolleyes:

I normally don't agree with him, but I completely understand where Duke Togo is coming from. You guys have all these explanations and precedent and are so quick to jump down the throats of anyone who expresses their... vehement disapproval of what they've seen in Delta.

Nobody is saying you don't have the right to have an opinion... but if you start complaining about Delta doing things that have been part of Macross for decades and aren't even being presented differently, it's rather hard to see those complaints as anything other than the trolling they are.

So many of these complaints being voiced don't hold water that it's not surprising people would be sick of hearing them.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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Nobody is saying you don't have the right to have an opinion... but if you start complaining about Delta doing things that have been part of Macross for decades and aren't even being presented differently, it's rather hard to see those complaints as anything other than trolling.

Macross hasn't been doing this stuff for decades, and no matter how many times you repeat it isn't going to make it true. I've seen every Macross production atleast twice (including 7, which I actually have on DVD), and I've been following this franchise since the beginning. I KNOW what this franchise is and how it has evolved, and I know what it is not. Despite the callbacks (which they did in Frontier, did we need to do them again?), Delta does not feel like Macross, and I have a very hard time suspending my disbelief with a lot of what I see. That is their failure, not mine. You don't care about these issues and you like it, and that's fine. But don't try to tell me I am wrong by twisting facets of the franchise to fit your view, and then go on to totally ignore and misrepresent what people are saying to make your convoluted argument.

Anyway, I am done here. See you next episode.

Edited by Duke Togo
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I think this GIF pretty much sums up my reaction to this episode :

original.gif?w=800&h

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Whoa whoa whoa/---an entire episode of Macross 7 Plus was focused on Gamlin's G-training and how strenuous it was----and that was in a VF-11. And I'm pretty sure I recall Alto getting thrown around in the cockpit during hard maneuvers in his -25. So I doubt that the -31 could just magically completely eliminate G-forces. Especially for people outside the cockpit.

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Macross hasn't been doing this stuff for decades, and no matter how many times you repeat it isn't going to make it true. I've seen every Macross production atleast twice (including 7, which I actually have on DVD), and I've been following this franchise since the beginning. I KNOW what this franchise is and how it has evolved, and I know what it is not. Despite the callbacks (which they did in Frontier, did we need to do them again?), Delta does not feel like Macross, and I have a very hard time suspending my disbelief with a lot of what I see. That is their failure, not mine. You don't care about these issues and you like it, and that's fine. But don't try to tell me I am wrong by twisting facets of the franchise to fit your view, and then go on to totally ignore and misrepresent what people are saying to make your convoluted argument.

Anyway, I am done here. See you next episode.

I agree completely. I'm at episode 27 of Macross 7 (second run), even M7 feels like Macross, in one way or another. Delta don't, and I'm not talking about the Sailor Moon transformation, I'm talking about the dancing with Valkyries, the VF-31 entrances like if they were in a concert in stupid formations, Valks without gunpods, etc, etc, etc.

Let's do an exercise, see the first episode of Macross Plus and then see the episode of Delta, a totally different anime. I know, M + is an anime of the 90's, but Sailor Moon too. The new Valkyries (VF-31) is nice as a fighter, but as Battroid is truly ugly, skinny and without gunpod, seriously ???

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It's only been 1 episode. We have 24 more weeks to go through. Good grief.

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