Terminator: Dark Fate

[JB0]

44 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

I've never heard anyone say they don't like the first movie.  Plenty have said they like the second movie more but that is not the same thing.

As for continuity - the instant time travel is involved it goes out the window.  The first movie setup a time loop that just can't happen without the time loop.  Latest Dr. Who season handled it pretty well with the who got the idea first bits.

I have heard people say they don't like the first movie.

 

 

And my rule on time travel stories is simple: Pick one set of rules and stick to it, or be fun enough that I don't notice the writers aren't thinking four-dimensionally.

 

From that perspective...

The first Terminator film goes for predestination rules, and ruthlessly edits to make EVERYTHING fit that set of rules. There are a huge number of details packed in to reinforce the loop. It is, honestly, the single most consistent time travel story I can think of, and I give Cameron a lot of points for how well everything meshes. 

If I am going to pick at the first movie's depiction of time travel, I am going to ask what makes living tissue special, since only living tissue and the stuff inside living tissue can go through time(which is obviously a narrative conceit to stop Skynet from sending back a gigaton nuke and vaporizing the entire city to kill ALL the Sarahs). It just seems like a really odd rule.

Sure, some people don't LIKE predestination, but it is as valid an approach as anything else until we actually build a time machine and figure the actual rules out. It is actually the LEAST weird way to handle non-mutiversal time travel, as horrifying as that is.

 

 

Terminator 2 starts with that same premise(Skynet is based on the dead Terminator, and thus Skynet is its own grandfather), and then kicks that loop it to the side so they can create a happy ending by stopping Skynet from ever being created. Unanswered is "if Skynet is never created and war with the machines never happens, then who sent back the Terminators to kill Sarah and John, who sent back Kyle Reese to protect Sarah, who killed all those innocent bystanders, and who got Sarah pregnant with John? And wait, did they just say Skynet was invented BECAUSE it sent a Terminator back in time how does that even work if Skynet was never created because they blew up the terminators Skynet created?" 

But we don't really care about these questions because "EVERYTHING BLOWS UP TWICE AND DUDE THAT COP ROBOT JUST TURNED HIS ARM INTO A SWORD MADE OF MERCURY WAIT DID HE JUST WALK THROUGH THE JAIL BARS LIKE A PUDDING MAN THIS IS AWESOME!" It is not very consistent and has huge holes, but it is fun enough that no one cares.

 

Terminator 3 takes on the thankless task of making the two movies mesh by applying a modified predestination rule where the details can change but the major points are immutable. It is only partially successful, and it kind of upset a lot of people when it ended with everyone getting nuked because Judgement Day wasn't avoidable. (Trufax: When I saw the movie in the theater, the guy behind me shouted "This is bullsh!t" at the screen when the missiles started flying. It was a memorable moment.)

 

 

 

Apparently, Genisys implies that each successive time travel instance connects to a new parallel timeline, which DOES resolve the awkward questions about what happens when you change the future(since any travelers are from Universe Alpha, Universe Beta's future has no effect on them).  Quantum physics saves the day!  Sort of...

See, multiversal time travel ALSO means that you can't really change the future. You are creating a new timeline with a better future, sure, but the old one continues to exist just as sucky as ever(unless the creation of a new timeline destroys the old one, in which case you KILL EVERYONE when you use your time machine). You are doing charity work for another world, and as far as your buddies back home can tell, you got vaporized and died when that alleged time machine activated(if they survive your trip).

And no one wants to deal with a multiverse that works the way reality implies it does. The double-slit experiment that implied the existence of parallel universes ALSO implied that they observably interact with our own. THAT gives me more headaches than any time loop ever did(especially when you get into the more complex variants of the experiment, where it starts seeming like the world behaves differently if people are watching it than if they aren't).

 

 

Time travel is hard to write, but CAN be done coherently. 

Just saying "continuity is impossible because time travel" is the easy way out, and I'd rather obsess over the details for days on end(which is probably not healthy, but I already know I'm crazy).

[Marzan]

6 hours ago, Graham said:

Really?  

I've personally never met anyone who doesn't like the first movie, it's a classic. I actually prefer it to T2.

Me too. I was very surprised to read that there's a lot of people who don't like the first one. It's a fantastic film and Arnold's original Terminator is terrifying.

[TangledThorns]

13 minutes ago, Marzan said:

Me too. I was very surprised to read that there's a lot of people who don't like the first one. It's a fantastic film and Arnold's original Terminator is terrifying.

In their defense the first film is really old and while the acting and story is timeless the budget effects, 1980s hair style and soundtrack is not. Probably a difficult film to appreciate if you didn't grow up with it like we did.

[Zinjo]

On 20/01/2017 at 8:35 PM, sh9000 said:

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/terminator/james-cameron-to-reboot-terminator-franchise-deadpool-helmer-a148340

James Cameron to reboot Terminator franchise and Tim Miller will direct.

That is exciting.

Hoepfully Cameron will go back to his original plan of having an "everyman" terminator instead of a muscle head.  The biggest reason Arnie was brought in was because it helped Cameron get more financing for the film.  Lance Henrickson was Cameron's first choice to play the terminator.

[Dynaman]

>  Terminator 2 starts with that same premise(Skynet is based on the dead Terminator, and thus Skynet is its own grandfather), and then kicks that loop it to the side so they can create a happy ending by stopping Skynet from ever being created.

 

It did not do that, it left the characters not knowing the future.  

[anime52k8]

personally, I've always thought the original terminator was way better than T2. If anything I've found T2 to have gotten less enjoyable to watch over the years.

[dizman]

7 hours ago, JB0 said:

If I am going to pick at the first movie's depiction of time travel, I am going to ask what makes living tissue special, since only living tissue and the stuff inside living tissue can go through time(which is obviously a narrative conceit to stop Skynet from sending back a gigaton nuke and vaporizing the entire city to kill ALL the Sarahs). It just seems like a really odd rule.

It just hit me, why doesn't skynet just coat the nuke in flesh and send it back? I mean it's not like it had to be a human shape....

 

oh wait it had to send back the terminator so that skynet could be built based on the processor and arm....the first movie really is too good.

Edited January 23, 2017 by dizman
almost caused a time paradox

[Dynaman]

28 minutes ago, dizman said:

It just hit me, why doesn't skynet just coat the nuke in flesh and send it back? I mean it's not like it had to be a human shape....

 

oh wait it had to send back the terminator so that skynet could be built based on the processor and arm....the first movie really is too good.

In the original Skynet did not know who (or where) Sarah Conner was.  It also might have tried finding out but ran out of time, which is kinda funny - having a time machine and all...

[JB0]

5 hours ago, dizman said:

It just hit me, why doesn't skynet just coat the nuke in flesh and send it back? I mean it's not like it had to be a human shape....

 

oh wait it had to send back the terminator so that skynet could be built based on the processor and arm....the first movie really is too good.

 

Actually, a lack of time to prepare is the implied problem, as weird as it sounds when you have a time machine. They make it clear in the first film.. the resistance had already breached Skynet's final defensive lines. The machines had effectively lost, it was all over but the killing. The time attack was a last-ditch gamble, and the humans took the time machine shortly after Skynet used it.  There simply wasn't an opportunity to create a care package(also why Arnold doesn't have the parts for a plasma rifle stored in his fleshy gut).

My impression is that Skynet was unaware of the causal loop, and thus didn't see the need to create itself by sending a terminator back. And lacking knowledge of the loop, it was ALSO taking a huge gamble that sending an omnicidal robot back in time to murder everyone named Sarah Conner and everyone that gets in the way would not somehow prevent the creation of Skynet. But enemies breached the gates, dead anyways, nothing to lose. Of course, if it DID know it needed to father itself, that would ALSO be a good reason not to nuke the entire town.

(John Conner, by contrast, DID know about the causal loop thanks to Sarah. There are several statements by Kyle that, when put together, tell the viewer John knew Kyle was his father and was actively grooming him for the job... which is SUPER CREEPY.)

 

My assumption with Terminator 2's setup is that the T1000 was loaded into the time machine immediately before or after the original T800, that all the time travel was done very rapidly on the future's side. And the last-ditch gamble shows again, as it was an unstable prototype.

[seti88]

Ah T1...where skynet inadvertently caused john conner to be born because it was trying to kill john conner. Now thats how you write a script....

[Big s]

I think the real question is what could humanity learn from just a robot arm. They may have gotten more from the lower half of the body or the brain that were crushed. A humanoid walking robot was impressive in the 80's and that computer brain would have been a more conceivable start to skynetif the ending was written different.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, Big s said:

I think the real question is what could humanity learn from just a robot arm. They may have gotten more from the lower half of the body or the brain that were crushed. A humanoid walking robot was impressive in the 80's and that computer brain would have been a more conceivable start to skynetif the ending was written different.

Terminator 2 said they had the skull, too, and though the internals were damaged, they learned a lot from it.

Incidentally, a cut scene from the original film had a factory employee showing his boss a chip they pulled from in the debris, then a pan up to a sign over the factory that said "Cyberdyne Systems", so the idea was actually there from the start.

 

That said, the arm was far from worthless. A compact, precise, durable, AND high-power electric motor would be far more useful in the short term than the computer stuff, especially for the era the original film was set in. To be honest, I think the servos in the T-800's hand are still ahead of modern electric motors. 

(Also, I like to imagine the T-800 ran on a garden-variety Motorola 6502, because I am weird. )

[Dobber]

15 hours ago, anime52k8 said:

personally, I've always thought the original terminator was way better than T2. If anything I've found T2 to have gotten less enjoyable to watch over the years.

This^^

I find that T2 hasn't aged well with me either. I loved how the original is more a sci-if/horror than any of the others too.

Chris

[Dobber]

2 hours ago, Big s said:

I think the real question is what could humanity learn from just a robot arm. They may have gotten more from the lower half of the body or the brain that were crushed. A humanoid walking robot was impressive in the 80's and that computer brain would have been a more conceivable start to skynetif the ending was written different.

It wasn't the arm it was the Chip that brought on the big advancements.

[Dynaman]

This probably needs a new thread but to my shock (I just don't keep up like I used to) filming has started on the next Terminator movie.

 

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/linda-hamiltons-sarah-connor-finally-returns-in-first-set-pics-from-new-terminator

 

[electric indigo]

Linda Hamilton 

[TangledThorns]

Wow, Linda Hamilton is 61 years and is ready for action! Well, my expectations just got higher for this film

[sh9000]

[TangledThorns]

Ah, now eventually they do plan to have terminators in their Terminator movie, right? Hello?

[tekering]

4 hours ago, TangledThorns said:

Ah, now eventually they do plan to have terminators in their Terminator movie, right? Hello?

I think the androgynous one in the middle is supposed to be a Terminator.

[Dynaman]

53 minutes ago, tekering said:

I think the androgynous one in the middle is supposed to be a Terminator.

Yup, that or the person had some EXTENSIVE surgery.

[derex3592]

ohh dear lord...please tell me that's not an official pic...I'm so not feeling emo, millennial young Adercrombie model whatever it is in the middle...

[TangledThorns]

Any fans of the Terminator TV series here? I think that was the last good Terminator, unexpectedly of course. Still sore that FOX cancelled it

[Dynaman]

I'm a fan of the old series.  It got off to a rocky start but was good by the end.  

[505thAirborne]

According to IMDB, the figure in the middle of that pic is actress Mackenzie Davis aka Mindy Park from The Martian. 

[derex3592]

NO WAY! ok..I see it now, but DAMN! I so fell in love with her in The Martian, she's SO cute! 

[peter]

On 8/4/2018 at 10:57 AM, TangledThorns said:

Any fans of the Terminator TV series here? I think that was the last good Terminator, unexpectedly of course. Still sore that FOX cancelled it

 

[sh9000]

[TangledThorns]

Nowhere to go up with this series.

 

[Old_Nash]

13 minutes ago, TangledThorns said:

Nowhere to go up with this series.

 

So.. A Terminator Venom?

[Mazinger]

On 8/4/2018 at 10:57 AM, TangledThorns said:

Any fans of the Terminator TV series here? I think that was the last good Terminator, unexpectedly of course. Still sore that FOX cancelled it

I'm a fan of the series.  I like the various plots they had developed regarding factions within the machines.  It did well with what it had and I was sorry to see it cancelled.

Terminator Genisys was a sorry replacement for it.  The show deserved more.

Linda Hamilton looks good in this outing.

 

[Ryoma]

Glad to see Sarah Connor is still kicking ass after two decades...but...where is John??? Did they turn his character into a girl too??? I mean, you never know with Holywood in these days...Joanna Connor...

[M'Kyuun]

I thought Mackenzie Davis was pretty cute in the Martian, too, but I totally thought she was a dude in that pic. I was looking at some other Terminator stills on the net, and she looks quite man-ish in those as well. 

I still think the first film was the best, in spite of the dated effects. It just had a good sci-fi story, had some good lines of dialog, and the actors all played their roles memorably. Stan Winston's endoskeleton still holds up today as one of the coolest, most iconic film creations. I've seen the filming models at Planet Hollywood and the Sci-Fi Museum and Hall of Fame in Seattle several times, and they always enthrall. Looks like the best of both worlds with the male antagonist Terminator in the new film. I thought they did that in one of the previous films, too, but maybe I'm misremembering. Haven't been too excited by the last three or four Terminator films, and they don't stick with me very well.

Anyway, glad to see Linda back, along with Arnold, reprising the roles that  jump started both of their careers. I tend not to be too critical or over analytical, so I'll see it just for the sheer fun of it. It's just entertainment, after all.

[Thom]

On 8/4/2018 at 1:57 PM, TangledThorns said:

Any fans of the Terminator TV series here? I think that was the last good Terminator, unexpectedly of course. Still sore that FOX cancelled it

Yes!! Thought that was a great show and it was ended way to soon!

I'm liking the look of this one, but I need a more fast-paced trailer. This tone-down one didn't do it for me. Am also wondering what happened to John and if maybe his disappearance has something to do with the new girl that Sarah says is the 'new her?' I'm guessing the whole 'mother of the rebellion' thing has been switched to someone else.

And from the sounds of it, I'm assuming that Davis is playing a cyborg rather than a rogue terminator.

[sketchley]

42 minutes ago, M'Kyuun said:

(...) Haven't been too excited by the last three or four Terminator films, and they don't stick with me very well.

(...)

Well... it's probably best to think of them as being in different cinematic realities.

Terminator 3 and Genisys are basically comedies.  So, they're best viewed with the critical thinking turned off, and just going along for the ride.

Salvation... uhm, it's the one with the Batman actor, and basically the only good thing about it is that it made Terminator 3 look good.

 

Nevertheless, I quite liked Genisys.  Not because of where the plot eventually ends up, but for all the nods to iconic moments in the previous films and how it usurps our expectations of how those scenes play out, and for the film being aware of the effects of a time loop (the combatants are evolving each time they pass through it), with suggestions that someone from farther in the future is using the time loop itself as a battleground—in the sense that who we thought are the main opponents [Skynet and John Conner] are actually the pawns of someone or something else.