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Ugh.. I dunno.  I guess in the light of how stupid almost every character in TLJ seemed to be, it makes sense that all of that slipped by them.

Maybe that's what bothers me so much about the storyline in general.. it feels like everything is happening because somewhere along the way, someone was utterly, incomprehensibly stupid, and sat there and watched in amazement as a giant axe flew in slow motion toward their own face.

 

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8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm sure the Disney EU has a lengthy and detailed explanation as to how the New Republic stupidly (yet realistically) ignored a huge and painfully obvious threat brewing on their doorstep.

Yes, they do.  The issue is explored in Star Wars: Bloodline, which (despite the title) is mostly a political allegory about Leia trying to hold the New Republic together.  According to the novel, a significant number of member worlds would've actively supported a military dictatorship like the First Order... and several do, in secret (particularly politicians who had benefitted from Palpatine's reign).

It's the most deathly boring thing to ever carry the Star Wars name, but it's a lot more plausible than anything that happens in the new trilogy.

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Posted (edited)
On 10/2/2018 at 4:44 PM, kajnrig said:

I don't think the point was to get revenge with a single initiative, but to continue to sow and foment discord among a US citizenry.

 

Wait what?

Internet trolls are now a government organised group of agents?

 

Quote

A whole lot of points were made about how TLJ was just a downright bad movie, many of which are fair, but some of which were and are extraordinarily dumb. I remember one being that Holdo had dyed hair. That was the criticism. Not that she was a bad CO and/or that her plan was needlessly convoluted and/or what have you, y'know, actual problems with her as a character or her role within the narrative. The criticism was that she had dyed hair, and that because she had dyed hair, she was the result of a progressive social movement in the US of A. And because she was the result of said movement, all her other faults are also a result of that movement.

 

All I got out of it was that her hair was just icing on the cake, like planting the flag at Iwo Jima, but I'm pretty sure that to undermine my position people will argue the contrary

 

Quote

Russian trolls fan that flame, and progressives (perhaps also unwittingly aided by Russian trolls), hit back with incredulity at how such a blatantly dumb criticism could be so popular among detractors (when in reality it's not, none of the reasoned criticism I see here cares about that).

I mean you might think it's far-fetched, but just look at how stupid people have gotten on this thread. All of the reasoned criticism of the movie is being drowned out by racist, sexist jackasses making racist, sexist comments that are amplified by Russian bots. All of the reasoned counter-points are being drowned out by reactionary, impulsive, barely-considerate idiots making reactionary, impulsive, barely-considered responses... that might also be amplified by Russian bots all too prepared to capitalize on the backlash. Eventually, that's all the conversation becomes about.[/quote]

 

I think it's more honest to say that all reasoned criticism is often being downplayed as racism, sexism and now the new stick to beat the dog with: foreign sabotage

to "debunk" any critics and kill any argument

"If you hate this movie, you're a..." is probably a Meme by now

 

Quote

Just thought it'd help everyone calm down a little to know that the crap we're flinging at each other comes from the butt of a hostile foreign government.

 

Luckily, I'm wearing my tinfoil hat and subscribe to Occam's razor

Edited by Nightbat
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9 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Ugh.. I dunno.  I guess in the light of how stupid almost every character in TLJ seemed to be, it makes sense that all of that slipped by them.

Maybe that's what bothers me so much about the storyline in general.. it feels like everything is happening because somewhere along the way, someone was utterly, incomprehensibly stupid, and sat there and watched in amazement as a giant axe flew in slow motion toward their own face.

Adam Savage once said "Reality makes for a crappy special effects crew."

There is a similar principle at work in both the Star Wars prequel trilogy's conclusion and more recent entries like Rogue OneThe Force Awakens, and The Last Jedi.  The original Star Wars trilogy was a pure science fantasy story arc with an almost literal black-and-white morality to it as the noble and selfless seekers of liberty in the Rebellion clash with the vile minions of tyranny from the Galactic Empire.  Since the Senate was dissolved offscreen early in the first film, the only politicians we see are Leia Organa, Mon Mothma, and Lando Calrissian.  Lando is the only one who behaves even remotely realistically in that he's mainly just looking out for his own interests and those of his constituents even if it means kowtowing to obviously evil parties to do so.  He's still shown behaving as a selfless heroic individual once evil finally pushes him too far... which isn't particularly realistic for a politician.

Starting in the prequel trilogy, a deeper look into the corrupt politics of the Old Republic shows us a very familiar "ripped from the headlines" picture of a governing body wherein the politicians invested in maintaining the status quo have little interest in doing anything involving the "greater good" unless their own interests are under direct and immediate threat and otherwise spend their time furthering their own agendas and those of the special interests who back them.  The Galactic Civil War was literally started when the Senate issued a rare rebuke to a corporate special interest group (the Trade Federation) after its leadership got busted engaging in blatantly illegal activity and the government of the victimized world made enough noise about it that protecting that corporate special interest group from prosecution by burying the matter in a subcommittee was no longer possible.  The actual war was literally the Chancellor wielding the corporate special interests that ran the Confederacy of Independent Systems as an elaborate distraction so that the self-obsessed politicians would gleefully erode the foundations of democracy for him by voting more and more power to him as long as he promised to make the boogeyman he created go away and stop threatening their interests.

Likewise, the New Republic Senate being so busy and self-involved as it bickered over scaling back its armed forces and a million other trivial nothings involving establishing its public policy that it almost completely missed a threat that was practically right in front of them is, to borrow a turn of phrase from Disney itself, practically a Tale as old as time.  Fairly half of the large empires that fell in antiquity fell for that exact reason... they were so preoccupied with internal matters that they didn't notice or minimized the threat of an invading power until its boot was descending upon their necks.

That kind of incredible, incomprehensible stupidity is in fact distressingly common in politics even today.  It just doesn't make for particularly exciting storytelling.

 

1 hour ago, tekering said:

Yes, they do.  The issue is explored in Star Wars: Bloodline, which (despite the title) is mostly a political allegory about Leia trying to hold the New Republic together.  According to the novel, a significant number of member worlds would've actively supported a military dictatorship like the First Order... and several do, in secret (particularly politicians who had benefitted from Palpatine's reign).

It's the most deathly boring thing to ever carry the Star Wars name, but it's a lot more plausible than anything that happens in the new trilogy.

Realistic depictions of routine politics seldom make for riveting entertainment... that's why C-SPAN's viewership is so low.

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6 hours ago, tekering said:

Yes, they do.  The issue is explored in Star Wars: Bloodline, which (despite the title) is mostly a political allegory about Leia trying to hold the New Republic together.  According to the novel, a significant number of member worlds would've actively supported a military dictatorship like the First Order... and several do, in secret (particularly politicians who had benefitted from Palpatine's reign).

It's the most deathly boring thing to ever carry the Star Wars name, but it's a lot more plausible than anything that happens in the new trilogy.

I tried to read that, but couldn't even finish Amazon's free preview. 

What bothers me more about the new trilogy, is that I understood from the OT, PT and the animated series, that there were no more force wielding people, however now we get Snoke at the helm of First Order, and the so-called Knights of Ren, and never get any hints as to where they came from. 

 

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1 hour ago, Convectuoso said:

I tried to read that, but couldn't even finish Amazon's free preview. 

What bothers me more about the new trilogy, is that I understood from the OT, PT and the animated series, that there were no more force wielding people, however now we get Snoke at the helm of First Order, and the so-called Knights of Ren, and never get any hints as to where they came from. 

 

Not to mention they don't explain how Leia had force powers too, but all that is explained in the EU books.  The Jedi Academy trilogy and especially I, Jedi, are good reads.  

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The original trilogy explains that Leia had powers.

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9 hours ago, Nightbat said:

 

Wait what?

Internet trolls are now a government organised group of agents?

 

I can't tell if that is supposed to be sarcasm or not.  If not then it has been well known that the Russians at least are putting on a large scale campaign to sow discord through social media.

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Having power and the ability to use said powers are two completely different things.  It was interesting how Leia suddenly decided to go all Mary Poppins in outer space considering that she had shown no such aptitude in the previous movies.  But whatever, I'm sure Luke had been training her somehow.  

As for the knights of Ren, I'm sure we'll see them in Ep IX.  They'll be da bomb.  8P

 

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2 minutes ago, kalvasflam said:

Having power and the ability to use said powers are two completely different things.  It was interesting how Leia suddenly decided to go all Mary Poppins in outer space considering that she had shown no such aptitude in the previous movies.  But whatever, I'm sure Luke had been training her somehow.  

As for the knights of Ren, I'm sure we'll see them in Ep IX.  They'll be da bomb.  8P

Which is why they really needed to show some extra scenes featuring Leia at least using some Force power. All we had was her 'sensing' that Luke was her brother in RoTJ after he told her.  It's entirely possible a scene like that was filmed but left out, like her conversations with the young woman we see on Hosnian Prime just before the beam hit. Even a small scene with her moving some object would have been good, but without that her doing a 'Mary Poppins' comes as more of a surprise than it should have.

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50 minutes ago, Thom said:

(...) Even a small scene with her moving some object would have been good, but without that her doing a 'Mary Poppins' comes as more of a surprise than it should have.

This goes straight to the heart of the matter: bad writing.

Which, is especially shocking when one considers how excellent Rian Johnson's writing was with "Looper".  (Though, that does explain why he was given carte blanche in SW8).

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On 10/5/2018 at 4:21 PM, renegadeleader1 said:

They went full Neville Chamberlain.

I'm not sure I understand that reference. Care to explain?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, kalvasflam said:

As for the knights of Ren, I'm sure we'll see them in Ep IX.  They'll be da bomb. 

They’ll all be dead..

 

3 hours ago, sketchley said:

This goes straight to the heart of the matter: bad writing.

Trying to make coherent sense of the political and military landscape in the new movies is all summed up in that statement. 

8 hours ago, Smacky said:

Not to mention they don't explain how Leia had force powers too, but all that is explained in the EU books.  The Jedi Academy trilogy and especially I, Jedi, are good reads.  

The EU got flushed with these new movies. Canon balled..

 

Edited by Bolt
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5 hours ago, eXis10z said:

I'm not sure I understand that reference. Care to explain?

Sure. Neville Chamberlain was the British Prime Minister before Churchill from 1937-1940. He was so desperate to avoid conflict after the the first world war with Germany he set up a policy of appeasement that outright ignored the Nazis rearming the country, threats against british interests, and the blatant aggression towards its neighbors.

 

This culminated in the Munich Agreement over the Sudetenland Crisis(German territorial claims over Czechoslovakia) in which Chamberlain caved in to every German demand and sold out Czech sovereignty to guarantee "Peace in our time."

That deal was in spite the german intent of the negotiations was to provoke a war up until Chamberlain basically gave Hitler everything he wanted without firing a shot. After that the Germans used the Czech industrial base to bolster its forces to the point they could invade Poland and trigger what many acknowledge as the official start of the Second World War.

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7 hours ago, Bolt said:

The EU got flushed with these new movies. Canon balled..

 

I refuse to let Disney ruin the last 20 years or so of books I’ve bought and read.  To me they will always be canon and have by far superior writing than both TFA (rehash of movies/EU books anyways) and TLJ.

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7 minutes ago, Smacky said:

I refuse to let Disney ruin the last 20 years or so of books I’ve bought and read.  To me they will always be canon and have by far superior writing than both TFA (rehash of movies/EU books anyways) and TLJ.

I agree with this approach - head canon is best canon - take what you like and ignore the rest.

 

NECA just released the fantastic Ultimate Ahab figure, but I won't get it because I'd have to acknowledge Prometheus/Alien Covenant.

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1 hour ago, Smacky said:

I refuse to let Disney ruin the last 20 years or so of books I’ve bought and read.  To me they will always be canon and have by far superior writing than both TFA (rehash of movies/EU books anyways) and TLJ.

I’m inclined to agree. 

Darth Cadius was much more of cunning and interesting bad guy , whom you could relate to .

And the “Sword Of The Jedi” Jaina would have made mincemeat of Kylo emo.

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45 minutes ago, apptt4 said:

I agree with this approach - head canon is best canon - take what you like and ignore the rest.

For the sake of enjoying a piece of media, this is damn near a holy decree. God knows how many Narutos and Star Trek Voyagers I apply this rule to.

Star Wars case in point: lightsaber colors don't follow any rules. I don't care what the convoluted explanations are, how the crystals or whatever reflect their users' demeanors or whatever. All of that nonsense turns what is entirely visual metaphor into... dumb justification.

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13 hours ago, kalvasflam said:

As for the knights of Ren, I'm sure we'll see them in Ep IX.  They'll be da bomb.  8P

Eh... if they're anything like the whiny ponce they answer to, I'll bet cash money they get Worf'd to show how strong Rey has gotten.  

 

 

50 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Star Wars case in point: lightsaber colors don't follow any rules. I don't care what the convoluted explanations are, how the crystals or whatever reflect their users' demeanors or whatever. All of that nonsense turns what is entirely visual metaphor into... dumb justification.

When did a convoluted explanation of that come in?  The one of the only things I remember from the few Star Wars books I'd read as a kid (mine was a Star Trek household) was that the Jedi used whatever crystals they could find.  I have this vague memory of an entire story centered around a master (was it Luke?) telling his trainees to f*ck off and find their own damn crystals, which led to stuff like going spelunking inside an active volcano, growing them in a lab, nicking parts from an old display, and smashing up family heirlooms for gemstones.  I think it was that same series that said that the dark side users all have red because their crystals are made in a factory and that's just how they come out?

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2 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Star Wars case in point: lightsaber colors don't follow any rules. I don't care what the convoluted explanations are, how the crystals or whatever reflect their users' demeanors or whatever. All of that nonsense turns what is entirely visual metaphor into... dumb justification.

IIRC that was more for the KOTOR video games, (perhaps canon..?) where each color indicates a style of play (Guardian, Sentinel,etc) you wanted your character to adopt. 

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2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

When did a convoluted explanation of that come in?  The one of the only things I remember from the few Star Wars books I'd read as a kid (mine was a Star Trek household) was that the Jedi used whatever crystals they could find.  I have this vague memory of an entire story centered around a master (was it Luke?) telling his trainees to f*ck off and find their own damn crystals, which led to stuff like going spelunking inside an active volcano, growing them in a lab, nicking parts from an old display, and smashing up family heirlooms for gemstones.  I think it was that same series that said that the dark side users all have red because their crystals are made in a factory and that's just how they come out?

Yeah, that's from the Young Jedi Knights series, where Jacen/Jaina are training on Yavin IV with... a wookie? and Tenel Ka, Battle Princess and Hottest Hottie, under Luke.

I suppose there's no one source of info about lightsaber colors, but the idea of crystals was around for a long time, and some stories/reference materials come up with various explanations for how certain things (like colors) work. They've all sort of built up over the years, the new stuff trying to work with the old, and somewhere along the line someone came up with the idea of the crystals being infused with emotions and/or attuning to the Force in different ways, thus the colors indicating things like class, demeanor, upbringing, etc. Apparently Sith intentionally seek out red-producing crystals because those promote violence and aggression or something. Honestly, I prefer the YJK setup where Sith sabers (or at least those used by the Sith academy in that series) are red because of mass production, and that's it.

59 minutes ago, Bolt said:

IIRC that was more for the KOTOR video games, (perhaps canon..?) where each color indicates a style of play (Guardian, Sentinel,etc) you wanted your character to adopt. 

I think this may be part of it, I do seem to recall this being the case. And it doesn't make much sense, because surely a lightsaber is a lightsaber is a lightsaber, color of the blade be damned. There's never been a practical difference between them to justify the color differences.

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10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... if they're anything like the whiny ponce they answer to, I'll bet cash money they get Worf'd to show how strong Rey has gotten.  

 

But it would be a sweet opening scene.  Rey offing the KoR, may be we can leave one of them alive for the future.  haha.

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Posted (edited)
On 10/8/2018 at 2:06 AM, Dynaman said:

I can't tell if that is supposed to be sarcasm or not.  If not then it has been well known that the Russians at least are putting on a large scale campaign to sow discord through social media.

Yes it is sarcasm, it's well known that currently the "Russian Scapegoat" is used for everything that somehow isn't going the way certain groups want them to

It creates a McCarthy-ist paranoia that helps in obfuscating the actual issues and/or shifting the blame

...like branding all news as "Fake news" will at a certain point make it impossible to discern one from the other

unless of course those that hold the moral fortitude decide for all of us what actual news is -as if we should trust any group that desires such power

 

I mean, projecting Russian agents on criticism of a MOVIE of all things? -and not even a very good one at that

Can it become even more absurd? Why can't the movie not simply suck enough to put the trending past time

-which is: to troll the life out of things until it isn't funny anymore- of the current generation of internet users into overdrive?

Nope, it HAS to be some kind of Illuminati/Freemason/Bolshevik/Zion/Russian masterplan to disjoint the world

What's next? Children stopped eating Brussel Sprouts because Putin spread a rumor that they are made of snot?

 

Just ask yourself, that in this very thread, there are a lot of negative comments concerning this movie

How many of these people are you willing to accuse of being government trained Russian sh*tposters? Eh Tovarishch?

Edited by Nightbat
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16 hours ago, renegadeleader1 said:

Sure. Neville Chamberlain was the British Prime Minister before Churchill from 1937-1940. He was so desperate to avoid conflict after the the first world war with Germany he set up a policy of appeasement that outright ignored the Nazis rearming the country, threats against british interests, and the blatant aggression towards its neighbors.

 

This culminated in the Munich Agreement over the Sudetenland Crisis(German territorial claims over Czechoslovakia) in which Chamberlain caved in to every German demand and sold out Czech sovereignty to guarantee "Peace in our time."

That deal was in spite the german intent of the negotiations was to provoke a war up until Chamberlain basically gave Hitler everything he wanted without firing a shot. After that the Germans used the Czech industrial base to bolster its forces to the point they could invade Poland and trigger what many acknowledge as the official start of the Second World War.

Ah I see! Thanks for sharing!

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14 hours ago, Nightbat said:

 

 

Just ask yourself, that in this very thread, there are a lot of negative comments concerning this movie

How many of these people are you willing to accuse of being government trained Russian sh*tposters? Eh Tovarishch?

In this thread, none.  In the net at large I think there are a lot of them.  The fact it is a stupid movie is not important - that it is a place they (paid foreign groups) can drive a wedge is.

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15 hours ago, Nightbat said:

Yes it is sarcasm, it's well known that currently the "Russian Scapegoat" is used for everything that somehow isn't going the way certain groups want them to

It creates a McCarthy-ist paranoia that helps in obfuscating the actual issues and/or shifting the blame

...like branding all news as "Fake news" will at a certain point make it impossible to discern one from the other

unless of course those that hold the moral fortitude decide for all of us what actual news is -as if we should trust any group that desires such power

 

I mean, projecting Russian agents on criticism of a MOVIE of all things? -and not even a very good one at that

Can it become even more absurd? Why can't the movie not simply suck enough to put the trending past time

-which is: to troll the life out of things until it isn't funny anymore- of the current generation of internet users into overdrive?

Nope, it HAS to be some kind of Illuminati/Freemason/Bolshevik/Zion/Russian masterplan to disjoint the world

What's next? Children stopped eating Brussel Sprouts because Putin spread a rumor that they are made of snot?

 

Just ask yourself, that in this very thread, there are a lot of negative comments concerning this movie

How many of these people are you willing to accuse of being government trained Russian sh*tposters? Eh Tovarishch?

Comrade I actively wok in de parti communista. My plan of moi commrades iz to infiltrade the captialistika vile rebel scum of the US f A. Mi i moi commrades will destroy mjuvies of dat butiful pest time of cinima muhahahahahahahahaha

 

PS Putin sends his regards.

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Let's go all the way down the McCarthyist paranoia rabbit hole and start theorizing about how the PhD who wrote the paper is really a Russian agent! :p 

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One thing to remember with Foreign agents is they do not have a side.  Pro or Con on any issue - as long as it is an issue they are doing their job.

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On 10/7/2018 at 9:41 PM, kalvasflam said:

....

As for the knights of Ren, I'm sure we'll see them in Ep IX.  They'll be da bomb.  8P

 

I just hope they are better than Phasma! And I hope if they bring her back she is a totally burned bitch who comes back as the devil incarnate!

Edited by Thom

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29 minutes ago, Thom said:

I just hope they are better than Phasma! And I hope if they bring her back she is a totally burned bitch who comes back as the devil incarnate!

Are you kidding me?  Phasma was probably one of the KoR, that she'll come back extra crispy with a side of BBQ sauce is not necessarily a bad thing.  Finn needs to have an enemy.   A nemesis, cause otherwise, who is Finn going to test his awesome hand to hand skills against.  Certainly not Rose.  And let's face it, Kylo would just own him.  

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Phasma - out of a group of incompetent morons she stands out, and not in a good way.  Really, the only "cool" thing about her is her Armor is a different color.  Reminds me of Boba Fett, except she has more lines of dialog. 

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3 hours ago, Dynaman said:

Phasma - out of a group of incompetent morons she stands out, and not in a good way.  Really, the only "cool" thing about her is her Armor is a different color.  Reminds me of Boba Fett, except she has more lines of dialog. 

Her armor does stand out.  You know what it says, out of a sea of white targets, that chrome piece of crap is screaming "SHOT ME, SHOT ME"  How she managed to become a leader of anything is beyond me.  As for the difference between her and Fett, to be honest, sometimes, people can't tell if you're an idiot or an incompetent if you don't open your mouth, but if you start talking, they'll have confirmation.

Edited by kalvasflam

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13 hours ago, Thom said:

I just hope they are better than Phasma! And I hope if they bring her back she is a totally burned bitch who comes back as the devil incarnate!

Nah, she and Hux are the First Order's designated buttmonkeys... if she comes back, they'll have to humiliate her even worse to one-up her getting tossed into the trash in The Force Awakens and getting beaten up by Finn and tossed into a bottomless pit in The Last Jedi.  If they bring her back again, she'll absolutely end up an anticlimax boss again.

Frankly, my money is on her accidentally killing herself in some spectacularly stupid way.

 

12 hours ago, kalvasflam said:

Are you kidding me?  Phasma was probably one of the KoR, that she'll come back extra crispy with a side of BBQ sauce is not necessarily a bad thing.  Finn needs to have an enemy.   A nemesis, cause otherwise, who is Finn going to test his awesome hand to hand skills against.  Certainly not Rose.  And let's face it, Kylo would just own him.  

If Phasma was one of the Knights of Ren, she probably wouldn't be a comically incompetent stormtrooper boss.

I kinda figured the guards that Rey and Ren minced were the Knights of Ren.

 

2 hours ago, Dynaman said:

Phasma - out of a group of incompetent morons she stands out, and not in a good way.  Really, the only "cool" thing about her is her Armor is a different color.  Reminds me of Boba Fett, except she has more lines of dialog. 

Oh, no doubt Phasma was meant to be the new trilogy's memetic badass like Boba Fett.

Unfortunately, she's a little too much like Boba Fett in that her status as a badass and The Dreaded is entirely Informed Ability and isn't actually supported by onscreen performance.

I hate to say it, but it's the one point where I actually find myself in complete agreement with the allegations by the new trilogy's critics that it was trying to push a socio-political agenda.  Such a fuss was made in the promotional material about Phasma being a woman, and how armor on a woman didn't need to look feminine, and then the writers missed a memo or revolted against the idea and made her completely useless.

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Seriously. She had armor that deflected lasers. Um so the new Empire er I mean, what are they now, storm-troopers could not get an upgrade in their armor.

Why didnt any of the Duh troopers have companion killer bots? I mean just look at armor of the Halo Spartans. The Adeptus Astartes with their hulking armor.

Yet we have a galaxy far far away with ships that travel faster than any other known SCIFI ship with wizards and laser swords but they cant make armor that deflects laser bolts. Heck even the Spartans had a power shields. But that is just one thing, but I understand this is canon now. It just doesnt make sense to have ONE trooper with special armor to have a bunch of your main force to literally be bullet sponges. 

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