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Mit

Macross Ground Variable Mecha

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I'd like to take a moment to point out that EVEN IF an infantry attack is viable, the Octos doesn't land enough of them to be useful.

Six men might be useful for an operation involving stealth and finesse, but not a major landing operation. And if stealth is a concern you don't land in a thirty-foot robot with a pepperbox missile launcher. That's pretty much the exact opposite of stealthy.

(Seriously, why DOES the Octos have a six-passenger compartment? It makes less than no sense.)

Nonetheless, I've taken this opportunity to update and re-upload a new version of the Destroid Tomahawk profile (refresh your browser cache) to the M3 website. The new profile includes all the updated weapons, design features and written text descriptions from the Macross Compendium. Including the impressive 180 kilometers per hour land speed :)

Ya know, thinking about it... riding a Tomahawk sprinting at 180 km/h has to be an insanely rough ride. I'm starting to appreciate the wheels on the Cheyennes more.

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Ya know, thinking about it... riding a Tomahawk sprinting at 180 km/h has to be an insanely rough ride. I'm starting to appreciate the wheels on the Cheyennes more.

That's only 112 mph. And that's maximum speed. How often do you see people driving at 120 mph on the road?

And as a matter of comparison, a RGM-79 GM's max speed is 192 km/h. The RX-78-2 Gundam's max speed is 205 km/h! And both have more mass than a Tomahawk. Imagine those sprints.

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That's only 112 mph. And that's maximum speed. How often do you see people driving at 120 mph on the road?

And as a matter of comparison, a RGM-79 GM's max speed is 192 km/h. The RX-78-2 Gundam's max speed is 205 km/h! And both have more mass than a Tomahawk. Imagine those sprints.

Both are also nearly twice the size of the Tomahawk, which mitigates that stress somewhat.

There was a super robot manga somewhere somewhen that talked about how super fast seems almost slow when you're big enough.

But of course all of these should be collapsing on themselves, so bleh to physics in general, eh?

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Ya know, thinking about it... riding a Tomahawk sprinting at 180 km/h has to be an insanely rough ride. I'm starting to appreciate the wheels on the Cheyennes more.

Hikaru is shown running a MBR-07 Destroid Spartan Mk II at maximum ground speed without a problem. It's actually more likely the Destroids and Valkyries are less stable at slower speeds; once they get going they likely stabilize, much like any biped.

That's only 112 mph. And that's maximum speed. How often do you see people driving at 120 mph on the road?

And as a matter of comparison, a RGM-79 GM's max speed is 192 km/h. The RX-78-2 Gundam's max speed is 205 km/h! And both have more mass than a Tomahawk. Imagine those sprints.

Oh trust me, I have compared Gundam to Macross. Extensively. As is often the case, Macross outperforms Gundam (yes, even using Gundam Century figures). Because the Macross mecha are so much smaller than Mobile Suits (VF-1 Valkyrie is 12.68 meters tall vs. RX-78-2 Gundam at 18.5 meters tall), their legs have to move FASTER to achieve the same running speeds. Meaning the legs of a variable fighter or destroid are outperforming those of a mobile suit.

Originally, the RX-78-2 Gundam had a maximum running speed of 165 km/h (later changed to 205 km/h, which incidentally doesn't work with the official RX-78NT-1 Gundam Alex's speed...but that's another discussion) while the VF-1 Valkyrie moved almost as fast, at 160 km/h. If one were to scale a VF-1 Battroid's performance up to the 18.5 meter height of the Gundam, the VF-1 would move at 233.4 km/h, faster even than the revised 205 km/h figure :)

But wait...the VF-1 is the slowest known Macross mecha! As we know, dedicated ground units like the MBR-04 Mk VI Destroid Tomahawk run at 180 km/h. If we scaled that performance up to a robot far larger than the Tomahawk's 11.27 meter height - say, the 18.5 meter size of a mobile suit - such a Destroid would be moving at 294.3 km/h :touche:

Go Macross :wub:

Edited by Mr March

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That's only 112 mph. And that's maximum speed. How often do you see people driving at 120 mph on the road?

More than you would expect, given I am often driving after midnight down the freeway and some dumb kids with more money than sense have pimped their cars and race them down said freeway, using the shoulder as a passing lane. :p

Just sayin'... you need a helluva suspension to isolate the driver from that many jolts.

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It's true that we've had two units of transforming ground mecha... but it is also true that the Octos and City-7 police patroid were not widely used or produced in large numbers. They couldn't match the all-purposefulness of the Valkyrie or the cost-effectiveness of a conventional Destroid.

Versatile possibilities of "VGPV-07 Chiron (Variable Ground Patrol Vehicle)" were not required because he was acting within the "Sity 7" and other vessels; air cover and patrols were engaged in near space "VAPC / VSPC-07 Odonata (Variable Air Patrol Craft / Variable Space Patrol Craft)"...

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7383/13422117494_e69089f343_o.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7075/13422116914_e6c8751e9a_o.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7311/13421752655_aef6745873_o.jpg

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2830/13421752405_75f326f828_o.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7002/13421871773_cccfdbed62_o.jpg

...тhis combination was quite effective and cheap, since they used the city police.

"Octos", but as "Valkyrie", was worth more than the "Destroyer", but quite acceptable for further proceedings, in fact, well-known rule is that "the more order, the lower the price!". Moreover, nothing forbids to improve the design, making it simpler and more reliable...

We haven't seen any transforming tanks because there is no practical advantage to a transforming tank in the Macross setting. You would have two different modes that are for the exact same purpose. Transformation in Macross (and, really, most other mecha shows) is used so that a mecha can operate in a different operational role in each mode... like the Valkyrie being a fighter jet, an attack helicopter substitute, and a combat robot, or the Octos being a submarine and a land warfare robot.

In fact, the real benefit is there in a smaller profile (enemy fire will be more difficult to hit the target), greater stability (which allows you to use more powerful weapons), less wear extremities (ie, a continuous operation), the ability to tow a variety of other goods, and so on

Actually, the VA-3M Invader makes a reasonable amount of sense... the thermonuclear reaction engines of a Variable Fighter use MHD systems for space propulsion, and that same technology can also be used to power boats and submarines. All VFs can be operated underwater, so making a VF that was optimized for underwater operation is a logical step that eliminates the need for a dedicated submarine mecha.

Well, "Octos" was equipped with reaction engine, but its creators did not have to suffer, thinking on while simultaneously combine in it the possibility of aero-space plane (by the way, and "VA-3M Invader" can independently go into orbit?) and waterproofness together with ballast, corrosion protection and resistance to high pressure + special configuration that folds the main wings down and the rear horizontal stabilizers rotate forward to assist in underwater maneuvering.
"Octos" obviously easier and cheaper out
nfantry is useless against the Zentradi, being the infantry don't carry weapons big enough to hurt a giant that can live through being shot with a 55mm armor-piercing cannon. The infantry in Macross Zero are only viable because the war was being fought between humans on Earth prior to first contact with the Zentradi. Even then, they're basically window dressing once the giant robots start to fight.

Hmm ... Anti-tank guns, maybe?

By the way, the Marines appear in the frame and in the "Macross Plus" (protection of military facilities) and in the "Frontier" (here they are already equipped with exoskeletons) - it seems that the local military still believe the infantry needed

We saw Gilliam using a linear rifle against a Vajra that had armor roughly equivalent to a VF-25, and all it did was ricochet everywhere without doing any damage. If we look to some of the old data, a Valkyrie or Destroid have armor equivalent to at least three meters of steel armor plate, or about triple the heaviest armor of a main battle tank

However, with small Vajra these linear rifle perfectly managed, so that for a particular purpose should be the appropriate weapon, that such anti-cyborg rifle...

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/exgear-nuns/exgear-nunsgun.jpg

Concerning reservation - one of the favorite arguments against Meca is the vulnerability of their joints and sensors - in the case of "Destroyer" and even rocket launchers ... Just need a suitable Infantry Tactics

And do not forget about the Marines of zentradi

It means that only a tiny fraction of Octos units had energy conversion armor, and only after they weren't being used in combat.

That is, the models produced after the war were also improved. Apparently the shortcomings of these machines were not so great

The new profile includes all the updated weapons, design features and written text descriptions from the Macross Compendium. Including the impressive 180 kilometers per hour land speed

Thanks "Mr March" :) By the way, could you refresh the page, "Cheyenne"?

Speed is really a problem ... or not?

"Cheyenne Mk II", like, develops a maximum of 112 km per hour, despite the fact that 50 years younger and is equipped with wheels ...

And what does it mean?

They were outnumbered and ambushed, so it's not surprising they didn't fare well... but the Octos didn't exactly fare well itself when it had to fight the VF-0's.

"Octos" attacked "the base" of UN forces after the main battle began, and if the "Cheyennes" and their pilots were not ready at the time of the attack ... well, their training is poor ...

Why did you decide so?

The first clash happened between them in the water - VF-0 shot from his 35mm gatling gun pod in emphasis and even something was damaged, but the combat capability "Octos" it is preserved...

The second time was in ruins - VF-0S Phoenix shot off "leg" and undermined one rocket launcher at the second "Octos" his Mauler laser cannons ... and then he exploded (strange, but shooting from the laser to the body was useless)

Somehow it seems a little on the absolute superiority of the "Valkyries

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he difference being that the Defender, Phalanx, Spartan, and Monster can operate on land, underwater (to limited depths), and in space... whereas the Octos is only viable in combat underwater and at the coast.

And how did they shoot underwater? Under the "operate in space" you mean the role of anti-aircraft guns on the deck?

Once again, "Octos" carries out its tasks and perform them well...

They built a handful... not enough to actually matter, and of course they never saw combat in the First Space War.

Nevertheless, they were built and were carrying military service, and if they had not been on the island, it is only a problem of command

Unlikely! The Daedalus was a heavily-armored ship, and we see in Macross the First that submarine attacks don't actually do enough damage to be a serious threat to it.

Аgain RAW? I can say only one thing, this submarine was not over tech weapons...

"The warheads of the missiles are equivalent to a 1,000lb bomb's explosive filler... and it usually takes two or three to get through a Valkyrie or Destroid's armor."

However, "Octos" and his weapon is created using the same technology as the "Valkyrie" with "Destroyer"

In Macross VF-X2? That's no Destroid, that's a VB-6 Konig Monster... a Variable Bomber.

Apparently you have not played - in 4 game tasks have to destroy the rebel "Destroyers", which protects one of the bases

The Cheyenne II is not new, it's an upgraded version of a Destroid design that is 51 years old as of Macross Frontier.

It's so updated and redesigned, it is a new model - it is possible to draw an analogy with the Russian T-90, which is a deep modernization of T-72B, called "T-72B advanced", but in 1992 was adopted already under the symbol T-90

Even in Gundam, the D-50C Loto was not nearly as capable in space as a conventional mobile suit.

But have proved effective in operations in the colonies and on the asteroid, i.e. his role coped

Poor emigrant planets do use inexpensive Valkyries like the VF-9 Cutlass or VF-5000 Star Mirage, but those fighters still have all of the versatility of the Variable Fighter design.

That is, you can build a cheap transformer?

1 variable tank, or the 10-20 Destroids you could build for the same money? You get way more firepower with the conventional Destroids.

If you can create a cheap "Valkyrie", why not create a cheap variation tank? If you look at the scheme of transformation "D-50C Lotto" or "Mon Soono", you will see that it is many times easier than the "VF-9 Cutlass"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBgRVF-ww2k

As part of the firepower:

"D-50C Lotto" - 2 x Beam Burner and 2 x 12-tube Missile Launcher, 2 x 120mm Cannon or Mega Machine Cannon or Machine Gun

"Hussar" - in addition to the anti infantry machine guns and Gatling gun mounted - quartet of large rotary cannons or twinned Heavy Rocket Packs (24 or 48 rockets) or Light Field Gun or twinned guided missile launchers

"Mon-Soono type20" - laser cannon x 1, missile pod (can mount regular or homing missile) x 2, shoulder-mounted cannon x 2 and assault rifle x 1

...very well even in comparison with "Destroyer"

Ghosts are eating into the number of VFs being built because they cost a fraction of what a VF does... and the technology which enables a VF to rival a Ghost's performance is prohibitively expensive

Here are just a model of the family "VF-24" and in the "frontier" and "Delta" by using this technology play a leading role; and instead of the new drone successfully developing brand new "VF-171EX Nightmare Plus" ...

Paradox...

Edited by Mit

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Well, as seen in episode 20 of Frontier even a HK G36 is somehow effective against small Vajra, the soldiers just got outnumbered and outgunned.

As for a transforming tank in the Macross universe, why not design one yourself as a fan-made work?

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Versatile possibilities of "VGPV-07 Chiron (Variable Ground Patrol Vehicle)" were not required because he was acting within the "Sity 7" and other vessels; air cover and patrols were engaged in near space "VAPC / VSPC-07 Odonata (Variable Air Patrol Craft / Variable Space Patrol Craft)"...

...тhis combination was quite effective and cheap, since they used the city police.

*sigh* This sh*t again...

For starters, I have no idea where you're getting those designations for the City Police patroids... because the official publications which cover them most assuredly don't even give them proper names, let alone designations.

As far as the performance of the flying and armored car patroids, the official publications don't agree with your contention. Their coverage in Macross Chronicle says nothing of their cost, and notes that they were adequate at maintaining public order inside of City-7 when dealing with civilians, but were completely unequal to the task of protecting City-7 from attack and suffered significant losses against enemy VFs.

"Octos", but as "Valkyrie", was worth more than the "Destroyer", but quite acceptable for further proceedings, in fact, well-known rule is that "the more order, the lower the price!". Moreover, nothing forbids to improve the design, making it simpler and more reliable...

As the Octos was inferior in most respects to a traditional Destroid and most definitely inferior to a Valkyrie, there wasn't really any incentive to bother trying to economize it... particularly as the focus of military procurement had been on space-oriented planetary defense. As the Octos was not suited to space operations, and the far cheaper conventional Destroids outclassed the Octos as a land warfare weapon, large-scale production of the Octos would've been a waste of resources on a mecha that was less effective than practically every other option.

It was, to be blunt, crippled by its overspecialization.

In fact, the real benefit is there in a smaller profile (enemy fire will be more difficult to hit the target), greater stability (which allows you to use more powerful weapons), less wear extremities (ie, a continuous operation), the ability to tow a variety of other goods, and so on

So... now would be a real bad time to point out that the Octos is substantially larger than the ADR-03-Mk.III Cheyenne and Series 04 Destroids of the First Space War?

The Octos stood 11.2m tall and was a good 15m+ long in its ground warfare mode... the Cheyenne was smaller in all respects, and the Series 04 Destroids were comparably tall but significantly less long-bodied.

The Octos is large, but its footprint on the ground is small and its weight is excessive, meaning the ground pressure will be much greater than a Cheyenne or Series 04 destroid's, meaning it will be less stable and more likely to get bogged down in soft terrain. (There is a REASON that Destroids have such large, flat feet.)

Really, pretty much every supposed advantage you're trying to attach to the Octos doesn't stand up under even a casual analysis.

Well, "Octos" was equipped with reaction engine, but its creators did not have to suffer, thinking on while simultaneously combine in it the possibility of aero-space plane (by the way, and "VA-3M Invader" can independently go into orbit?) and waterproofness together with ballast, corrosion protection and resistance to high pressure + special configuration that folds the main wings down and the rear horizontal stabilizers rotate forward to assist in underwater maneuvering.

The VA-3M was not the first underwater-capable VF... all of them have had some underwater capability, starting from the VF-0, as a consequence of the technology used in the engines and the structural design for aerospace operations. The VA-3M was simply the first variable aircraft purpose-built for aquatic operations.

Unlike the Octos, the VA-3M can fight in the air, on land, and underwater, and can boost to at least a low orbit for recovery... while Octos units would need a spacecraft to land and recover them.

"Octos" obviously easier and cheaper out

The Octos may be cheaper than a VA-3M, but it's also a lot less versatile and effective.

Hmm ... Anti-tank guns, maybe?

By the way, the Marines appear in the frame and in the "Macross Plus" (protection of military facilities) and in the "Frontier" (here they are already equipped with exoskeletons) - it seems that the local military still believe the infantry needed

Nope.

We see infantry in a few different Macross titles, but the reality is always the same... they are rear-echelon security, not a front-line combat force. They guard installations and VIPs, but the bulk of the actual fighting is done by Valkyries and other mobile weapons.

Concerning reservation - one of the favorite arguments against Meca is the vulnerability of their joints and sensors - in the case of "Destroyer" and even rocket launchers ... Just need a suitable Infantry Tactics

And do not forget about the Marines of zentradi

Targeting joints or sensors will only work if the weapons are sufficiently powerful to get through the armor protecting them... armor material is several orders of magnitude more durable in Macross than the real world. The blast from a warhead powerful enough to penetrate the OTM composite armor of a Destroid would very likely kill anyone in the ground within several dozen yards.

The Zentradi Marines don't really count, as on foot they're equivalent to a battroid and they're usually deployed in their own mecha.

Thanks "Mr March" :) By the way, could you refresh the page, "Cheyenne"?

Speed is really a problem ... or not?

"Cheyenne Mk II", like, develops a maximum of 112 km per hour, despite the fact that 50 years younger and is equipped with wheels ...

And what does it mean?

No speed is given for the Cheyenne or Cheyenne II using rollers in Macross Chronicle or any other official publication that we have.

Its rollers were considered advantageous because they helped it move across the hull of a ship more effectively than magnetic walking, and didn't mess up the pavement inside the city ships.

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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As for a transforming tank in the Macross universe, why not design one yourself as a fan-made work?

We said that back here: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=43350&p=1249992

and here: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=43350&p=1249992

Just curious, has Mit even considered watching Southern Cross?

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Thanks "Mr March" :) By the way, could you refresh the page, "Cheyenne"?

Speed is really a problem ... or not?

"Cheyenne Mk II", like, develops a maximum of 112 km per hour, despite the fact that 50 years younger and is equipped with wheels ...

And what does it mean?

As far as I know, there are no official speed figures for the Cheyenne II or the Mk. III Cheyenne, either with the rollers or running on foot.

EDIT: revising my guess, since the Mk. III Cheyenne specifically states the rollers are for high speed, so maybe it is faster on it's wheels than it is running. Which is scary given the prescedent set by the Tomahawk's running speed (the trivia also states the rollers don't damage the roads/decks).

I'd think that when running, the Cheyenne II would be AT LEAST within the 160 - 180 km/h range established by the VF-1 Valkyrie and the Destroid Tomahawk, but likely faster given the 50 years of advancement in technology. IMO, It's a safe guess, however unofficial.

Edited by Mr March

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Just curious, has Mit even considered watching Southern Cross?

At the very least, he appears to be familiar with its R******* equivalent.

He did mention the Spartas hover tank in his original post, though it's funny that he'd cite the adaptation where it was considered a rubbish mecha like the other failed transformable tanks.

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As far as I know, there are no official speed figures for the Cheyenne II or the Mk. III Cheyenne, either with the rollers or running on foot.

Well, "azrael" indicated that the maximum speed "Cheyenne" as 112 kilometers per hour - when he meant another, then I'm sorry

Just curious, has Mit even considered watching Southern Cross?

Yes I know this series. But I really do not like this design, let me explain why.

1) it moves on an air cushion, ie, it can not use in the rarefied atmosphere, or in the absence of air

2) in the tank mode, he can only use a single beam gun

3) put forward his feet, he loses much of its speed and agility, but gains in firepower, so that is probably the turret mode

4) in the robot mode, it can be used again, only one beam gun

In general, the design turned out stupid

As for a transforming tank in the Macross universe, why not design one yourself as a fan-made work?

I am a bad artist, but I'll try, somehow, to write a short "lecture" on alternative history of armored vehicles in "Macross" ... a separate topic

In the meantime, I gather information and develop theoretical aspect

For starters, I have no idea where you're getting those designations for the City Police patroids...

With "Spacebattles Forums", there seems to be very creative people gather, just themselves invented (?) тhese names

Their coverage in Macross Chronicle says nothing of their cost, and notes that they were adequate at maintaining public order inside of City-7 when dealing with civilians, but were completely unequal to the task of protecting City-7 from attack and suffered significant losses against enemy VFs.

*Tired sigh* ... It seems that you do not understand the meaning of reading

Patrol robots are adequate for their role of police equipment and, as transformers, were quite cheap and easy...And if such could be done to the police, there is no problem with the creation of the army of models, more reliable, with decent weapons and armor.
Speaking of which, where, during the attacks enemy VFs, were "Destroyers" and "Valkyrie" guarding "City-7"?

As the Octos was inferior in most respects to a traditional Destroid and most definitely inferior to a Valkyrie

Once again, "Octos" was good in his field of battle, and more than amphibious capability is not required of him... In space, there are many planets with plenty of water

The Octos stood 11.2m tall and was a good 15m+ long in its ground warfare mode... the Cheyenne was smaller in all respects, and the Series 04 Destroids were comparably tall but significantly less long-bodied.

Well, the "In-50C Loto" at a height of 12.2 meters has a crew of three pilots and carries eight commandos and with arms weigh a maximum of 22.1 tonnes...

"Terminus" type from 13.7 to 14.2 (2.6-2.7 in car mode) meter in height and weigh from 21.3 to 23.3 tons. They also, in the car mode, can reach a maximum speed of 260-300 km per hour

The Octos is large, but its footprint on the ground is small and its weight is excessive, meaning the ground pressure will be much greater than a Cheyenne or Series 04 destroid's, meaning it will be less stable and more likely to get bogged down in soft terrain.

What? That is, do you, "Octos" could not act on the sandy / muddy coast or in the jungle? Here are just a "Macross Zero" has been used successfully on the coast and in the interior of the island...

all of them have had some underwater capability, starting from the VF-0

The point is "leakage", so "VF-0" and could, not for a long time, dive into the water

Unlike the Octos, the VA-3M can fight in the air, on land, and underwater, and can boost to at least a low orbit for recovery... while Octos units would need a spacecraft to land and recover them.

As a result, we got terribly expensive and complicated "a jack of all hands", the same bad coping with all tasks

The Octos may be cheaper than a VA-3M, but it's also a lot less versatile and effective.

For planetary garrisons, especially in the worlds richest water surfaces, suitable

they are rear-echelon security, not a front-line combat force.

This is not true. In the "Macross Zero" infantry led fire on "Octos", and in the "Frontier" fighters in power armor destroyed "vajra" during a sweeping operation...
So it all depends on the talent commanding officers

The blast from a warhead powerful enough to penetrate the OTM composite armor of a Destroid would very likely kill anyone in the ground within several dozen yards.

And what's the problem? Distance defeats the purpose of "9M133 Kornet" 100-5,500m (Kornet-EM 8,000 m (anti-tank), 10,000 m (thermobari)), and "FGM-148 Javelin" has an interesting feature of striking targets in the most vulnerable area of target...

For the rest, like the warhead capacity, has over technology

Edited by Mit

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Well, "azrael" indicated that the maximum speed "Cheyenne" as 112 kilometers per hour - when he meant another, then I'm sorry

First, I was referring to the Tomahawk. And it's 112 miles per hour (that's 180 kilometers per hour).

Yes I know this series. But I really do not like this design, let me explain why.

1) it moves on an air cushion, ie, it can not use in the rarefied atmosphere, or in the absence of air

2) in the tank mode, he can only use a single beam gun

3) put forward his feet, he loses much of its speed and agility, but gains in firepower, so that is probably the turret mode

4) in the robot mode, it can be used again, only one beam gun

1) Did you watch the show? Cuz they were driving those things on the hull of a space ship near the end, in space.

2) There's nothing that says they can't use the other weapons in Sniping Clapper-mode. Only that it would be firing in the wrong direction.

3) But they can jump in Walker-Cannon mode. They're not sitting ducks in that mode. They can move around by jumping.

4) Did you watch the show? Cuz you would have seen it when one deployed the big gun and another used the little gun in Battle-Sniper mode.

In general, the design turned out stupid

Worked well for the Armies of the Southern Cross...within their show...on ground engagements.

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Well, "azrael" indicated that the maximum speed "Cheyenne" as 112 kilometers per hour - when he meant another, then I'm sorry

azrael was talking about the Tomahawk's land speed, which he converted from the metric 180 kilometers per hour to the Imperial 112 miles per hour. (He rounded up slightly, it's really 111.8mph.)

Yes I know this series. But I really do not like this design, let me explain why.

1) it moves on an air cushion, ie, it can not use in the rarefied atmosphere, or in the absence of air

2) in the tank mode, he can only use a single beam gun

3) put forward his feet, he loses much of its speed and agility, but gains in firepower, so that is probably the turret mode

4) in the robot mode, it can be used again, only one beam gun

In general, the design turned out stupid

Aye, Southern Cross in general was a substantial series of bad decisions... and the horrible adaptation did nothing to deny that the mecha were poorly designed.

Patrol robots are adequate for their role of police equipment and, as transformers, were quite cheap and easy...And if such could be done to the police, there is no problem with the creation of the army of models, more reliable, with decent weapons and armor.

Nothing I can find in official material on the City-7 Patroids suggest that they were inexpensive... and we never see them in any large numbers, which suggest they may actually be quite pricey despite their extremely limited capabilities and poor combat performance.

The UN Forces didn't need or want a rather poorly-designed transformable armored car though. They already had Valkyries and Destroids and armored fighting vehicles and so on that did the exact same job in significant numbers.

Speaking of which, where, during the attacks enemy VFs, were "Destroyers" and "Valkyrie" guarding "City-7"?

The only Destroids seen aboard City-7 were retired models from the First Space War that had been converted into various kinds of heavy equipment for task like mining and construction. (With the sole exception of a single Mk.II Monster destroid that caused very significant collateral damage attempting to fire on enemy Valkyries.)

Because it was a habitat ship, City-7 didn't have a dedicated defense force permanently stationed aboard... it was dependent upon the Valkyries carried by the Battle-7 and other ships of the fleet for protection. Mayor Milia addressed this during the war by having Gamlin Kizaki's Diamond Force placed under her command.

Once again, "Octos" was good in his field of battle, and more than amphibious capability is not required of him... In space, there are many planets with plenty of water

True, but few and far between are the foes who hide in the water... the defenses of emigrant planets and Earth are focused around protecting against attacks from space and preventing enemies from reaching the surface.

Well, the "In-50C Loto" at a height of 12.2 meters has a crew of three pilots and carries eight commandos and with arms weigh a maximum of 22.1 tonnes...

"Terminus" type from 13.7 to 14.2 (2.6-2.7 in car mode) meter in height and weigh from 21.3 to 23.3 tons. They also, in the car mode, can reach a maximum speed of 260-300 km per hour

Yes, and the D-50C Loto paid for that carrying capacity, transformation, and small size by using a much less powerful reactor, being able to carry far less fuel, having a much less sophisticated AMBAC system, and reducing overall performance. It was not as heavily armed, as heavily armored, as fast, or as agile as a conventional mobile suit.

The Terminus series LFOs from Eureka Seven are not an example of typical LFO performance... they were a series of unstable and unnecessarily finicky super-prototypes that were beyond the abilities of all but the best pilots. That's why the Monsoono series was adopted by the military instead. Also, the data I can find gives that 300km/h speed as its maximum speed in flight.

What? That is, do you, "Octos" could not act on the sandy / muddy coast or in the jungle? Here are just a "Macross Zero" has been used successfully on the coast and in the interior of the island...

The point is "leakage", so "VF-0" and could, not for a long time, dive into the water

The Octos was nowhere near as fast or capable as a Destroid or Valkyrie on uneven terrain and would be much more prone to sinking into the ground and getting stuck because its incredibly small footprint and heavy weight give it a far greater ground pressure than any of its potential foes.

Also, leakage? The reason explicitly given in Macross Zero for the VF-0 not being able to operate underwater was that the fighter's main power system was its conventional jet turbine engines... engines which don't work underwater. They had to use battery power to operate underwater, and that limited their operating time. VF's with thermonuclear reaction turbine engines don't have that issue since oxygen isn't required for them to run.

This is not true. In the "Macross Zero" infantry led fire on "Octos", and in the "Frontier" fighters in power armor destroyed "vajra" during a sweeping operation...

So it all depends on the talent commanding officers

The Octos in Macross Zero only had armor comparable to a modern armored fighting vehicle because it didn't have an engine that had enough output to support energy conversion armor and the composite armor it had needed to be kept light for transformation. The newer Series 04 Destroids and the VF-1 Valkyrie had much better armor. (About 3x better, all told.)

In Macross Frontier, we only see EX-Gear infantry fight the weak, larval form Vajra. As we see at the beginning of the series, their weapons are not effective against the mature Vajra whose armor rivals that of a 5th Generation Valkyrie like the VF-25.

And what's the problem? Distance defeats the purpose of "9M133 Kornet" 100-5,500m (Kornet-EM 8,000 m (anti-tank), 10,000 m (thermobari)), and "FGM-148 Javelin" has an interesting feature of striking targets in the most vulnerable area of target...

For the rest, like the warhead capacity, has over technology

The problem with this line of reasoning is that even if they were far enough away that the pressure wouldn't kill them, they'd still be shooting at an extremely high-mobility target perfectly capable of intercepting the missiles... assuming said missiles actually had the stopping power to hurt the mecha.

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I was referring to the Tomahawk. And it's 112 miles per hour (that's 180 kilometers per hour).

I admit fault ... By the way, and what you are not satisfied with the metric system? - It seems to be used worldwide

1) Did you watch the show? Cuz they were driving those things on the hull of a space ship near the end, in space.

The use of rocket engines is a huge fuel consumption in operations on planets such as the Moon or Mars...

There's nothing that says they can't use the other weapons in Sniping Clapper-mode. Only that it would be firing in the wrong direction.

A very controversial feature, from the point of view of usefulness

But they can jump in Walker-Cannon mode. They're not sitting ducks in that mode. They can move around by jumping.

Yeah, nice to get a target

Did you watch the show? Cuz you would have seen it when one deployed the big gun and another used the little gun in Battle-Sniper mode

If you do not remember about the fact that this support service in robot mode

http://pre09.deviantart.net/8cd1/th/pre/f/2013/327/8/5/robotech__spartan_001_by_leelf-d6vd7vu.jpg

Worked well for the Armies of the Southern Cross...within their show...on ground engagements.

Interesting, what was the size of bribes to the military officials that they have adopted the armored vehicle with an unprotected cockpit?

Edited by Mit

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I admit fault ... By the way, and what you are not satisfied with the metric system? - It seems to be used worldwide

Well... a significant portion of this site's membership is from the United States, which is one of three countries in the world that don't use the metric/SI system as their standard. (The other two are Liberia and Myanmar.) Mr March and I are perfectly happy to use metric, as he's from a metric country and I'm an engineer, but many members are used to thinking in terms of Imperial units of measure.

Interesting, what was the size of bribes to the military officials that they have adopted the armored vehicle with an unprotected cockpit?

Y'know... I don't think I have ever seen an explanation for the unprotected pilot position on the ATAC・01-SCA Spartas hover tank in the few available publications for Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross or the American R****** adaptation.

Seems like kind of a huge oversight for an armored fighting vehicle, but I guess the Southern Cross Army wasn't expecting to ever have to actually fight a war since humanity hadn't encountered any aliens and probably wasn't up for a civil war after having only narrowly escaped extinction in a nuclear holocaust by fleeing Earth.

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The only Destroids seen aboard City-7 were retired models from the First Space War that had been converted into various kinds of heavy equipment for task like mining and construction. (With the sole exception of a single Mk.II Monster destroid that caused very significant collateral damage attempting to fire on enemy Valkyries.)

Because it was a habitat ship, City-7 didn't have a dedicated defense force permanently stationed aboard... it was dependent upon the Valkyries carried by the Battle-7 and other ships of the fleet for protection. Mayor Milia addressed this during the war by having Gamlin Kizaki's Diamond Force placed under her command.

That is, the "Destroyer" is too strong, and "Valkyrie" should be removed from the front line?

It turns out that the idea - to make a relatively small "Variable Combat Car", suitable for dense urban areas with sufficiently powerful weapons to critical damage the enemy "VF`s" - suggests itself...

Nothing I can find in official material on the City-7 Patroids suggest that they were inexpensive... and we never see them in any large numbers, which suggest they may actually be quite pricey despite their extremely limited capabilities and poor combat performance.

Or maybe vice versa ... If we make assumptions, the police simply could not afford to have expensive equipment ... And what about the amounts - "VAPC / VSPC-07 Odonata (Variable Air Patrol Craft / Variable Space Patrol Craft)" in frame was enough

True, but few and far between are the foes who hide in the water... the defenses of emigrant planets and Earth are focused around protecting against attacks from space and preventing enemies from reaching the surface.

As we can see in the "Delta", orbital defense weakly helps against a well-prepared enemy, so that the ground defense can`t be reject...

The Octos was nowhere near as fast or capable as a Destroid or Valkyrie on uneven terrain and would be much more prone to sinking into the ground and getting stuck because its incredibly small footprint and heavy weight give it a far greater ground pressure than any of its potential foes.

Here are just a "Macross Zero" has been used successfully on the coast and in the interior of the island...It is ironic, given how easy it is "Cheyennes" died under fire "Octos" in "Macross Zero"

lso, leakage? The reason explicitly given in Macross Zero for the VF-0 not being able to operate underwater was that the fighter's main power system was its conventional jet turbine engines... engines which don't work underwater. They had to use battery power to operate underwater, and that limited their operating time. VF's with thermonuclear reaction turbine engines don't have that issue since oxygen isn't required for them to run.

That's just even "VF-X2" for special operations in the water is forced to use "VA-3" ...

To be honest, it is not considered to be "Zero", the only "Valkyrie", the sample in water at least a short time was a high-tech "VF-27"

Yes, and the D-50C Loto paid for that carrying capacity, transformation, and small size by using a much less powerful reactor, being able to carry far less fuel, having a much less sophisticated AMBAC system, and reducing overall performance. It was not as heavily armed, as heavily armored, as fast, or as agile as a conventional mobile suit.

That does not prevent him from effectively destroy enemy units and to carry out operations of penetration ...

If we compare the "Loto" to "VF-1", then at the height of "D-50C" even inferior to "Valkyrie" and only slightly higher than its weight ... replace the reactor and add energy conversion armor and ready variational "Destroyer": )

The Terminus series LFOs from Eureka Seven are not an example of typical LFO performance... they were a series of unstable and unnecessarily finicky super-prototypes that were beyond the abilities of all but the best pilots. That's why the Monsoono series was adopted by the military instead. Also, the data I can find gives that 300km/h speed as its maximum speed in flight.

Unfortunately, accurate data on the characteristics of other "KLF" can not be found, however, even if the rate of "Mon-Soono" on the floor hundreds of kilometers per hour less than the slowest of the "Terminus" (260 km per hour), it is still It is faster than the "Destroyers" with very good arms

By the way, even on the "MAHQ.net" speed of "Terminus" to 260-300 km per hour is specified for "vehicle mode" ...

I'm sorry, but you're wrong

The problem with this line of reasoning is that even if they were far enough away that the pressure wouldn't kill them, they'd still be shooting at an extremely high-mobility target perfectly capable of intercepting the missiles... assuming said missiles actually had the stopping power to hurt the mecha.

The concept of "itano circus" is familiar to you?
Edited by Mit

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That is, the "Destroyer" is too strong, and "Valkyrie" should be removed from the front line?

Goodness no... the Destroids aboard City-7 were units that had been retired by the military and subsequently sold off to civilians for conversion into heavy construction or mining equipment (or in some cases, given to retiring soldiers as part of their pension).

The Monster in City-7 was problematic because it was crewed by elderly retired soldiers and couldn't actually hit the enemy fighters that it was shooting at... so it was destroying buildings in the city instead.

It turns out that the idea - to make a relatively small "Variable Combat Car", suitable for dense urban areas with sufficiently powerful weapons to critical damage the enemy "VF`s" - suggests itself...

The police patroids were not designed for combat against military-grade equipment... they were only built for the preservation of the public order. Once they were forced to fight against military hardware they were wiped out easily by Valkyries.

As we can see in the "Delta", orbital defense weakly helps against a well-prepared enemy, so that the ground defense can`t be reject...

A few things about this...

1. Al Shahal's garrison wasn't particularly large.

2. They were facing a technologically superior enemy in orbit.

3. The Al Shahal garrison's forces were reduced by the outbreak of Var syndrome among their soldiers on the surface and divided because they were also trying to subdue those soldiers who went on a rampage because of Var syndrome.

Here are just a "Macross Zero" has been used successfully on the coast and in the interior of the island...It is ironic, given how easy it is "Cheyennes" died under fire "Octos" in "Macross Zero"

The Octos units were disabled or destroyed just as easily, if not more so... considering Roy is able to blow their limbs off or even destroy them with the VF-0's coaxial lasers, the lightest weapon it has.

That's just even "VF-X2" for special operations in the water is forced to use "VA-3" ...

To be honest, it is not considered to be "Zero", the only "Valkyrie", the sample in water at least a short time was a high-tech "VF-27"

They weren't really forced to use the VA-3M... it was just the most appropriate unit for the job considering they needed to hunt an enemy submarine from the air and destroy it underwater.

While we don't often see VF's operate underwater, all of them are capable of it down to a certain depth... (~100m for the VF-1).

That does not prevent him from effectively destroy enemy units and to carry out operations of penetration ...

If we compare the "Loto" to "VF-1", then at the height of "D-50C" even inferior to "Valkyrie" and only slightly higher than its weight ... replace the reactor and add energy conversion armor and ready variational "Destroyer": )

No, it just prevented the Loto from being able to fight against modern mobile suits on an even footing. The last thing an infiltration unit wants is to be completely screwed if they don't kill the enemy with their first shot.

As far as replacing the Loto's reactor and giving it energy conversion armor... you'd just be creating something inferior to, and more expensive than, a Cheyenne II or Super Defender destroid.

Unfortunately, accurate data on the characteristics of other "KLF" can not be found, however, even if the rate of "Mon-Soono" on the floor hundreds of kilometers per hour less than the slowest of the "Terminus" (260 km per hour), it is still It is faster than the "Destroyers" with very good arms

By the way, even on the "MAHQ.net" speed of "Terminus" to 260-300 km per hour is specified for "vehicle mode" ...

I'm sorry, but you're wrong

MAHQ's stats are often inaccurate... in some cases extremely so. (I've found one entire section on their site where it's actually not even information from the right series.)

Still, even if we were to assume the numbers provided indicate that some of these LFOs/KLFs are capable of 200-300km/h in vehicle mode, they're cars... which means those speeds will be unattainable over rough terrain. Also they're not capable of fighting in their vehicle mode... which makes those numbers effectively meaningless.

The concept of "itano circus" is familiar to you?

I'm very familiar with it... and with the way that many mecha are shown to be able to defeat an Itano Circus by shooting down a few missiles and letting the explosions set the other missiles off. It's as much a trademark of Macross as the Itano Circus itself.

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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The Southern Cross mecha are actually pretty good. Equal to Macross Mecha? Maybe. Maybe not. They are designed differently. The Spartas is a fast reaction and fire support unit. It can operate in space and in "Battloid" Mode it can use it's arm mounted weapons. The Logan seems to be a light interceptor and the AJACs the main fighter and air support unit. Those are things not really covered in Macross. The Valkyrie ends up having to do it all.

Personally, I find the Destroids running speed dubious do to their limited knee articulation. They kind of make for it with their ankle/foot structure but I still find it hard to believe that they can run as fast as a Valkyrie. If they could move at those speeds they really shouldn't have been retired as they're still better for ship and base defense. I'm even doubting that they were retired considering we see Battle Pods in MD. If they're still in service and being upgraded then surely the Destroids would be too. The upgraded Defender from MR? would seem to confirm that.

The Police Valks in M7 didn't fare well because they weren't dedicated combat craft. I think they did take out a few enemy VFs but they had high losses. There were several VF-1s on M7's City Section but we only really see Milia's. Using the others would have taken attention away from her. Same with using non modified Destroids. The use of the Monster was comic relief and "proof" of the need for younger pilots.

Could there be more variable vehicles in Macross? And could they be dedicated combat units? Absolutely. Why haven't see seen more? For the same reason we haven't seen more Destroids. They're not the stars of the show. I think we'll see more Destroids and variable vehicles when the plot calls for them. Not until then. Personally, I think it'd be great if Valkyries took the back seat for a while. They've gotten a bit silly.

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The Southern Cross mecha are actually pretty good. Equal to Macross Mecha? Maybe. Maybe not. They are designed differently. The Spartas is a fast reaction and fire support unit. It can operate in space and in "Battloid" Mode it can use it's arm mounted weapons. The Logan seems to be a light interceptor and the AJACs the main fighter and air support unit.

Almost none of what you've said there is accurate... not for Southern Cross, and not for the appalling rewrite.

(The only correct detail is that the Spartas can use its main gun in Battle Sniper mode... albeit awkwardly.)

Those are things not really covered in Macross. The Valkyrie ends up having to do it all.

That's not correct either... the Spartas's role is effectively equivalent to those of the MBR-04-Mk.VI Tomahawk and ADR-04-Mk.X Defender respectively (MBT equivalent and self-propelled gun), and the Logan and Auroran fill essentially the same role that the Valkyrie does in Macross (all-regime aerospace fighter and land warfare robot).

Personally, I find the Destroids running speed dubious do to their limited knee articulation. They kind of make for it with their ankle/foot structure but I still find it hard to believe that they can run as fast as a Valkyrie. If they could move at those speeds they really shouldn't have been retired as they're still better for ship and base defense.

The Destroid running speed is right out of the official stats, and consistent with the presentation of the Destroids in the series and various later titles as being surprisingly agile for its build. They also have much more contact with the ground than a Valkyrie, so their drive train would be more stable on land at high speeds.

On the battlefield, Destroids were the victims of the ever-increasing multi-purposefulness of Valkyries. For the defense of ships and bases, Destroids fell victim to their own size and price tag. Most UN Forces ships are too small to reasonably support Destroids for air defense, or would have to curtail their primary offensive/defensive capability to make room for them. Thus, most ships make do with the cheaper, less complicated, stationary anti-aircraft guns and missile phalanxes. Even on the SDF-1 Macross, the Destroids were a supplement to the fixed defenses, not a replacement for them.

I'm even doubting that they were retired considering we see Battle Pods in MD. If they're still in service and being upgraded then surely the Destroids would be too. The upgraded Defender from MR? would seem to confirm that.

Problem is, that they were retired is official... in fact, the ones in civilian hands in Macross 7 are referred to as units that were sold to civilians as part of the disposal process. Same with the various VF-1's and other Valkyries that've ended up in civilian hands.

There is, also, a key difference between the Destroids and Battle Pods. The Destroids were designed for human crew, and far more effective mecha and cheaper alternatives to air defense became available as time went on. Giant Zentradi don't really have as many options as miclones due to their sheer size, and the mecha they do have are extremely low-maintenance and (with a little improvement by human engineers to make them more survivable) still as murderously effective as their 500,000 year service history would indicate, which makes their continued use economical and practical.

The "Super Defender" from Macross the Ride was a recent development by the Macross Galaxy fleet in 2058, and the Cheyenne II likewise seems to be a late 2040's or 2050's-era development. Destroids did continue on after the First Space War, but the niche they carved for themselves and still hold with tenacity seems to be that of heavy work machinery. Destroids seem to be the go-to platform for everything from construction equipment to mining to cargo handling.

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Even on the SDF-1 Macross, the Destroids were a supplement to the fixed defenses, not a replacement for them.

It's probably also notable that the SDF Macross wasn't carrying it's intended armament. If I recall, much of it's defensive weaponry was supposed to come from the ARMDs that it failed to dock with in the first episode, so the surplus of destroids were pressed into service as, effectively, MAKESHIFT defensive weaponry. That said, the ship was plenty big enough to support them.

Destroids did continue on after the First Space War, but the niche they carved for themselves and still hold with tenacity seems to be that of heavy work machinery. Destroids seem to be the go-to platform for everything from construction equipment to mining to cargo handling.

Everyone wants the Aliens Power Loader.

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the Destroids aboard City-7 were units that had been retired by the military and subsequently sold off to civilians for conversion into heavy construction or mining equipment (or in some cases, given to retiring soldiers as part of their pension).

The Monster in City-7 was problematic because it was crewed by elderly retired soldiers and couldn't actually hit the enemy fighters that it was shooting at... so it was destroying buildings in the city instead.

Okay, the removal of the old fighting vehicles with weapons and their subsequent alteration in the civil construction machinery can be called a stroke of genius in terms of saving :)

But, do not provide them with adequate substitute for military service it is idiocy :(

As a result, "City 7" nothing defend and have to withdraw, "Valkyrie" from the front line -_-

The police patroids were not designed for combat against military-grade equipment... they were only built for the preservation of the public order. Once they were forced to fight against military hardware they were wiped out easily by Valkyries.

Once again, the idea is not to recast "Patrol" in combat vehicles, and in the creation on their base of small transformable fighting vehicles - on the similarity of "VM 9 Silverback" from one fanfic

http://s9.photobucket.com/user/vestras/media/Robotech/VM-9LSilverback-01.jpg.html

http://s9.photobucket.com/user/vestras/media/Robotech/VM-9LSilverback.jpg.html

http://image01.seesaawiki.jp/h/n/harmony-gold_japan/815f0d7f0c488a31.gif

Color version with explanations and notations

http://image02.seesaawiki.jp/h/n/harmony-gold_japan/cc3f93ed7e6c0652.jpg

A few things about this...

1. Al Shahal's garrison wasn't particularly large.

2. They were facing a technologically superior enemy in orbit.

3. The Al Shahal garrison's forces were reduced by the outbreak of Var syndrome among their soldiers on the surface and divided because they were also trying to subdue those soldiers who went on a rampage because of Var syndrome.

Several objections:

1) detachment of the attackers were even less

2) an opponent whose "Valkyrie" have been at the technological level "VF-27" and "VF-171EX Nightmare Plus" stood on the garrison weapons - it is not called an overwhelming difference

3) would have ground troops inadequate equipment and training then would not have to recall "Valkyrie" from the front line

The Octos units were disabled or destroyed just as easily, if not more so... considering Roy is able to blow their limbs off or even destroy them with the VF-0's coaxial lasers, the lightest weapon it has.

Again:

1) "VF-0D" was not able to destroy the "Octos" shooting of "GPU-9" with an extremely close range, he could not even seriously damage it

2) "VF-0S" was not cool their laser guns armor "Octos" case, but only to shoot off his leg hit the joint and destroy rocket launchers

In turn, "Octos" easily destroyed "Destroyers" from the shore detachment... Here are just a "Macross Zero" has been used successfully on the coast and in the interior of the island

They weren't really forced to use the VA-3M... it was just the most appropriate unit for the job considering they needed to hunt an enemy submarine from the air and destroy it underwater.

That is, not every "Valkyrie" can operate effectively under water?

Then I do not care how much they can dive...

No, it just prevented the Loto from being able to fight against modern mobile suits on an even footing. The last thing an infiltration unit wants is to be completely screwed if they don't kill the enemy with their first shot.

As far as replacing the Loto's reactor and giving it energy conversion armor... you'd just be creating something inferior to, and more expensive than, a Cheyenne II or Super Defender destroid.

Only two of them. And, not from return fire from normal MS, but from personal models against which in battle can only survive mecha level "Delta Plus" and "Unicorn". But the usual MS destroyed by "Lotto" was no less than 8 with no losses from the Federal forces even after they were discovered and fired...

"D-50C Lotto" little more than a brand new "Cheyenne II", but no worse than armed and can engage in melee combat. Also, this can serve as transport for the fighters.

Plus, his transformation of the system is quite simple and does not require any highly complex action...

MAHQ's stats are often inaccurate...

On the "Mecha Talk - the official forum of www.MAHQ.net" is a separate issue which was discussed about mek of "the Eureka 7", and where the data lined after translation sources...

Still, even if we were to assume the numbers provided indicate that some of these LFOs/KLFs are capable of 200-300km/h in vehicle mode, they're cars... which means those speeds will be unattainable over rough terrain. Also they're not capable of fighting in their vehicle mode... which makes those numbers effectively meaningless.

And what prevents to do off-road version with a rotary turret? That's right, nothing ... By the way, the "Mont Soono" just turning the turret
and with the way that many mecha are shown to be able to defeat an Itano Circus by shooting down a few missiles and letting the explosions set the other missiles off. It's as much a trademark of Macross as the Itano Circus itself.
In conjunction with the tactics of anti-tank ambushes will be very effective
Edited by Mit

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Could there be more variable vehicles in Macross? And could they be dedicated combat units? Absolutely. Why haven't see seen more? For the same reason we haven't seen more Destroids. They're not the stars of the show. I think we'll see more Destroids and variable vehicles when the plot calls for them. Not until then. Personally, I think it'd be great if Valkyries took the back seat for a while. They've gotten a bit silly.

Dude, they're planes that turn into robots. There's no way to make them NOT silly.

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Okay, the removal of the old fighting vehicles with weapons and their subsequent alteration in the civil construction machinery can be called a stroke of genius in terms of saving :)

But, do not provide them with adequate substitute for military service it is idiocy :(

The adequate substitute is called Valkyries and ship-mounted anti-aircraft guns and missile phalanxes.

Once again, the idea is not to recast "Patrol" in combat vehicles, and in the creation on their base of small transformable fighting vehicles - on the similarity of "VM 9 Silverback" from one fanfic

Color version with explanations and notations

That ugly turd is from R******* and even they didn't end up using it because it's a completely redundant mess.

(and once again you're scraping the bottom of the barrel for reference sites...)

Several objections:

1) detachment of the attackers were even less

2) an opponent whose "Valkyrie" have been at the technological level "VF-27" and "VF-171EX Nightmare Plus" stood on the garrison weapons - it is not called an overwhelming difference

3) would have ground troops inadequate equipment and training then would not have to recall "Valkyrie" from the front line

1. Just because we only see the one small group doesn't mean they were the only ones... those fighters didn't have fold boosters, which means the fold effect they came from had to have a ship in it as well. When the average carrier holds upwards of 50 VFs... well... you do the math.

2. Incorrect. All indications are the Aerial Knights' Sv-262 is on par with a VF-31 or YF-29, which make them more advanced than the VF-27 and significantly more advanced than the VF-171 that was the garrison standard.

3. Where is it said that the ground forces have inadequate equipment or training? Nowhere.

Again:

1) "VF-0D" was not able to destroy the "Octos" shooting of "GPU-9" with an extremely close range, he could not even seriously damage it

2) "VF-0S" was not cool their laser guns armor "Octos" case, but only to shoot off his leg hit the joint and destroy rocket launchers

In turn, "Octos" easily destroyed "Destroyers" from the shore detachment... Here are just a "Macross Zero" has been used successfully on the coast and in the interior of the island

1. Shin never engaged an Octos with his VF-0D's gun pod. He shot one underwater with the coaxial laser while running the entire VF on backup power. Even so, he destroyed its primary camera and disabled it long enough to get away.

2. Roy's VF-0S disabled one Octos and destroyed another with nothing more than its coaxial lasers.

Yes, the Octos units destroyed the ADR-03-Mk.III Cheyenne units defending the village... with the advantage of surprise, superior numbers, and not caring if they destroyed the village.

That is, not every "Valkyrie" can operate effectively under water?

Then I do not care how much they can dive...

The only Valkyries that could not were the VF-0 and Sv-51, because they were powered by conventional jet engines. Every Valkyrie with reaction engines is capable of operating underwater. The only difference is how far down they can dive.

Only two of them. And, not from return fire from normal MS, but from personal models against which in battle can only survive mecha level "Delta Plus" and "Unicorn". But the usual MS destroyed by "Lotto" was no less than 8 with no losses from the Federal forces even after they were discovered and fired...

"D-50C Lotto" little more than a brand new "Cheyenne II", but no worse than armed and can engage in melee combat. Also, this can serve as transport for the fighters.

Plus, his transformation of the system is quite simple and does not require any highly complex action...

You keep coming back to the D-50C Loto as though it offered some kind of support for your argument instead of being a perfect, explicit example of transformation offering no added value for a land warfare robot. The transformation so thoroughly crippled all aspects of the Loto's performance that the only way it could fight effectively was to ambush the enemy and hope it killed them all before they could fight back. Every time it got into something resembling a fair fight it got destroyed easily.

The D-50C Loto carries significantly less weaponry than practically any destroid in Macross (except possibly the Octos). It has 2 missile launchers (24 missiles total) and one gun mount that can take either a machine gun too light to hurt a MS, a rotary cannon, or a pair of 120mm cannons. It's really not much better armed than the tanks from its own universe. Compare that to the Cheyenne II, which has two particle beam cannons, two 30mm rotary cannons, two missile launchers holding an unknown number of missiles, and an antipersonnel machine gun.

In conjunction with the tactics of anti-tank ambushes will be very effective

And what enemy in Macross fights like that?

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All of this back and forth is ultimately leading to something, right?

That the OP needs to go write his/her fan fiction. The conversation here is almost identical to the one we had on the other forum. I was ready to lock it when it first posted because the conversation is the same.

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I think the OP should focus more on the characters that are going to pilot the mecha instead of the technical details.

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All of this back and forth is ultimately leading to something, right?

It's an express train to comedy, at least for me.

(What can I say? Some people just want to watch the world burn.)

As a result, "City 7" nothing defend and have to withdraw, "Valkyrie" from the front line -_-

City 7 was not under-defended. They were faced with an exceptional fighting force. And generally speaking, you DO assign the bulk of your defenses to keeping the enemy OUT of civilian population centers.

I don't see you cursing the crew of the SDF-1 Macross for having inadequate defenses to repel Kamjin and Millia's incursions into the city.

2) an opponent whose "Valkyrie" have been at the technological level "VF-27" and "VF-171EX Nightmare Plus" stood on the garrison weapons - it is not called an overwhelming difference

3) would have ground troops inadequate equipment and training then would not have to recall "Valkyrie" from the front line

The VF-27 and VF-171 aren't the same tech level. And the Drakens were clearly superior to the -171s.

Who was recalled from the front lines? The VF-31s were a limited special force, and they were engaged with a force that had attacked Walkure, who they were charged with defending. The -171s were not redeployed.

Again:

1) "VF-0D" was not able to destroy the "Octos" shooting of "GPU-9" with an extremely close range, he could not even seriously damage it

2) "VF-0S" was not cool their laser guns armor "Octos" case, but only to shoot off his leg hit the joint and destroy rocket launchers

Again, you're wrong.

That is, not every "Valkyrie" can operate effectively under water?

Then I do not care how much they can dive...

It's more the case that if you have a motorboat, why would you take a canoe?

They had a Valk that was optimized for aquatic combat, so why use one that wasn't?

In conjunction with the tactics of anti-tank ambushes will be very effective

Yes, if you have a surprise attack, you're more likely to hit someone. That doesn't mean we need transforming tanks, or in any way affect the strengths and weaknesses of the missile cloud.

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(Seriously, why DOES the Octos have a six-passenger compartment? It makes less than no sense.)

probably the same reason the Mi-24 has an 8 man passenger compartment. because the Russians are weird.

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Almost none of what you've said there is accurate... not for Southern Cross, and not for the appalling rewrite.

(The only correct detail is that the Spartas can use its main gun in Battle Sniper mode... albeit awkwardly.)

I believe they're pretty good. I didn't say anything about the writing.

That's not correct either... the Spartas's role is effectively equivalent to those of the MBR-04-Mk.VI Tomahawk and ADR-04-Mk.X Defender respectively (MBT equivalent and self-propelled gun), and the Logan and Auroran fill essentially the same role that the Valkyrie does in Macross (all-regime aerospace fighter and land warfare robot).

Except we never see the Destroids in those rolls. They're more walking turrets. Very rarely do we see them off the ship and when we do they die horribly, unless piloted by a hero. Not only that but it was always the Valkyrie that had to go out. Where were the Destroids on Macross Island when the war started? Where were they when the SDF-1 was boarded? It was Valkyries fighting house to house not Destroids.

The Destroid running speed is right out of the official stats, and consistent with the presentation of the Destroids in the series and various later titles as being surprisingly agile for its build. They also have much more contact with the ground than a Valkyrie, so their drive train would be more stable on land at high speeds.

I never said it wasn't canon. I said I find it dubious considering the lack of articulation in the knee joint. I also don't see those speeds in the series. It's also hard to believe that the Tomahawk despite weighing more than twice that of a Valkyrie can move 20kph faster. Sure it has more solid feet but that just means it's not going to be as bogged down in terrain as the Valkyrie.

On the battlefield, Destroids were the victims of the ever-increasing multi-purposefulness of Valkyries. For the defense of ships and bases, Destroids fell victim to their own size and price tag. Most UN Forces ships are too small to reasonably support Destroids for air defense, or would have to curtail their primary offensive/defensive capability to make room for them. Thus, most ships make do with the cheaper, less complicated, stationary anti-aircraft guns and missile phalanxes. Even on the SDF-1 Macross, the Destroids were a supplement to the fixed defenses, not a replacement for them.

By size do you mean smaller than the Valkyrie? As for defense canon shows Destroids dying and needing to be reinforced by Valkyries. Even though Valkyries had far less fire power than Destroids.

Problem is, that they were retired is official... in fact, the ones in civilian hands in Macross 7 are referred to as units that were sold to civilians as part of the disposal process. Same with the various VF-1's and other Valkyries that've ended up in civilian hands.

I never said it wasn't official. I said I doubted it. If Destroids are so good, they should have remained in service instead of Battle Pods.

There is, also, a key difference between the Destroids and Battle Pods. The Destroids were designed for human crew, and far more effective mecha and cheaper alternatives to air defense became available as time went on. Giant Zentradi don't really have as many options as miclones due to their sheer size, and the mecha they do have are extremely low-maintenance and (with a little improvement by human engineers to make them more survivable) still as murderously effective as their 500,000 year service history would indicate, which makes their continued use economical and practical.

Except the Zentradi can be reduced in size to operated Destroids and Valkyries. And while they may be low maintenance they're also have weak legs are unstable, and a burden to pilot. There's also no reason they couldn't be redisigned with a human sized cockpit. Indeed there are some that operate with a crew with no modifications.

The "Super Defender" from Macross the Ride was a recent development by the Macross Galaxy fleet in 2058, and the Cheyenne II likewise seems to be a late 2040's or 2050's-era development. Destroids did continue on after the First Space War, but the niche they carved for themselves and still hold with tenacity seems to be that of heavy work machinery. Destroids seem to be the go-to platform for everything from construction equipment to mining to cargo handling.

Which would make one think that Destroids were still in use, even if only limited. There is retired from frontline service and retired completely. Plus it's easier to upgrade something you possess than to have to build brand new. There's also the detachable weapons packs. Maybe they just detached weapons and added construction packs and used them as engineering units. Then if needed they just swap packs. They just didn't need them until later. Whatever the case, it doesn't change that the Valkyries are the hero Mecha. Not the Destoids. If the story wants Destroids to be hero mech and more effective than previously shown then they will be. The same goes for Pods, Police Mecha, and variable ground units.

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Is it wrong that I read all these pages of interesting discussion on possible economic impact, military functionality, in series historical examples and comparative tactics and find myself thinking: it's because Kamawori loves aircraft - if he had a fetish for tanks, Macross would be full of variable ground units . . . .

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Is it wrong that I read all these pages of interesting discussion on possible economic impact, military functionality, in series historical examples and comparative tactics and find myself thinking: it's because Kamawori loves aircraft - if he had a fetish for tanks, Macross would be full of variable ground units . . . .

Oh, we all know that's the real reason... 'cept maybe Mit... but because of that, Kawamori has constructed a setting where a transforming tank would be an entirely redundant thing. He's not alone in doing that either. Most settings where transforming robots exist would be ones in which a transforming tank would be a waste of resources on a machine that has two modes to do the exact same job. (e.g. Southern Cross, Eureka Seven, Mobile Suit Gundam, etc.)

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Except the Zentradi can be reduced in size to operated Destroids and Valkyries. And while they may be low maintenance they're also have weak legs are unstable, and a burden to pilot. There's also no reason they couldn't be redisigned with a human sized cockpit. Indeed there are some that operate with a crew with no modifications.

There may be heavy resistance to any sort of "forced" micloning among large portions of the zentradi populace.

They are historically proud of their stature, and there have been historical attempts to limit their size to human-scale. Telling them they can fight, but only if they wanna submit to micloning might be deeply offensive to them.

Besides, regults are easy to make. One assumes they remain so even after augmentation to raise their standard of survivability and ease of operation.

And, well, millenia of tradition don't die easily. They may fight to protect culture instead of destroy it now, but "if these weapons were good enough for my genetic line's first generation, then by Minmay, they're good enough for me!"

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