Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[trojan_gambit]

I'm not sure who exactly was doing the shooting, only that the bolts were red. Also, it looks like Chuck didn't take any hits, but Arad took a few without consequence.

You have a good eye to notice this.

Probably just small caliber bullet, so it's easy to be brushed off by ECA.

[Saruta]

So we will NOT know who was flying those rescue VF-31s remotely?..

[Nazareno2012]

So we will NOT know who was flying those rescue VF-31s remotely?..

As the VF-31's have an AI, I think Hayate just programmed their autopilots.

[Aries Turner]

No, there's no caveat here... you've kind of missed the reference point that's being used in the comparison.

The Draken III's atmospheric design focus and unique transformation resulted in the fighter having more limited onboard fuel storage and endurance than average in its generation... but they're not comparing it to a VF with a Super Pack. It comes up short compared to a "naked" 5th Generation VF. The Lilldrakens are the Draken III's equivalent of a Super Pack, and similarly extend its endurance in space.

I think I (we) got lost in translation, because I am not comparing it to a super pack. Great Mechanics also points to the VF-25 being highly optimized for atmosphere use (thanks, Aaron), thus the variable wings. In fact, we see Alto and former VF-25F pilot discarding super parts *every* time they go in some kind of atmosphere. AKs, however, don't bother discarding Lilldrakens, as are more streamlined. But if discarded, the Draken alone is as streamlined even with missile pack as a naked VF-25 can be. So stating it is more adept at atmosphere is of unclear significance at best, as Siegfrieds are also an atmosphere improved Kairos. Maybe it was just stating Draken III were thought for atmosphere use right from the start (as the VF-25), as opposed to the VF-31*A*.

No, we shouldn't... becuase the Lilldrakens are akin to a Super Pack. They're not permanent parts of the fuselage the way the YF-29's engines are.

Of course I didn't meant literally, but practically. The way Lilldrakens are integrated into the airframe on strong hardpoints, and the capability to thrust forward the entire fighter on its own without worrying about stressing such hardpoints too much, gives freedom to the main engines to divert all power to weapons. I recall some scenes where the main engine glow dimmed considerably. I assumed it was because the longer funnel would obscure most of the plasma exhaust when viewing from some angles. Didn't think about the possibility of the engines diverting most of its energy to fire.

When you oversimplify, looks can be deceiving.

I was not stating the SV-262 as being as capable as the YF-29, no with that 'reheat' system. I was simply pointing the fact it has a similar number of weapons. In no way I was inferring those are equally capable. Good point about the YF-29 leg launchers magazine, thought.

Transformation-wise, it's more a descendant of the VF-9 than anything... but based on what's said in Great Mechanics G it seems more like a totally separate school of design thought.

But fighter configuration-wise, it looks as a streamlined Tornado Pack without the aerodynamic penalties. The 6th generation YF-29 prototype had the same goal. The SV-262 took other path. That path took this 4th'ish generation system of systems to fight on par or better than 5th generation designs. Edited October 2, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Master Dex]

YF-29 is still 5th generation btw, as it is descended from the YF-24 design. There is no in-universe 6th generation VF yet.

[Aries Turner]

Good point. As it is still way over a VF-25, lets call it Gen 5.5 then.

[Master Dex]

Good point. As it is still way over a VF-25, lets call it Gen 5.5 then.

I wouldn't go that far even. The VF-25 isn't the poster child of the 5th generation of VFs, it is just the poster child for Frontier fleet's 5th generation VFs. Generation 5 VFs all stem from one design, the YF-24. Also, all emigrant fleet designs are based on a reduced spec version of the 24 design (aka monkey model). This is because the Federal NUNS version of the YF-24, and as we often speculate the VF-24 as a result, is way higher spec. It can be estimated that the YF-29 is the only emigrant fleet design that might get close to matching the Federal YF/VF-24 specs, except that the YF-29 is way to expensive to produce (whereas Federal NUNS has nearly unlimited resources). So if anything, the YF-29 is one of the most representative VFs of the 5th Generation.

That being said, specs and power aren't necessarily what make a generation. A lot of it also has to do with design methodology, mission parameters, and perhaps more importantly when the design was created. In many ways the levels of progress are steady and marking designs by generation is just an arbitrary thing people like to do to classify them. YF-24 was seen as a new generation due to having quite a fair bit of capability and versatility beyond the mascots of the 4th generation (the VF-19 and 22), but really it is because it was developed later with newer ideas, technology, needs, and knowledge learned from the former designs.

To give another perspective on that, the VF-171 is a newer and more recent design than the VF-19, but both are Gen 4, and no one would say the VF-171 is as good or better than the 19. It exists because it is more versatile and less expensive than the 19, which is what was needed at the time. It also uses more modern technology than the VF-17 used (which itself was originally a Gen 3 design, but the 17D is often considered on par with Gen 4) which is what makes it a Gen 4. Similarly, to the original point, that kind of thing is why the YF-29 and VF-25 are definitively both Generation 5.

[Aries Turner]

Then make it the VF-25 4.5 generation or 4.75, but please take into account that what I am trying to imply is that SV-262 is, or seems, VF-22 like, technology wise, but with some improvement to be able to compare favorably to VF-25s or VF-31s, but not YF-29 or YF-30.

The Draken III's atmospheric design focus and unique transformation resulted in the fighter having more limited onboard fuel storage and endurance than average in its generation...

I hope that is stated somewhere, because the more I read into Sketchley's translations, the more unlikely it seems. As in almost every other VF design until YF-30, arms are stored between the engines (*), but in the SV-262 those are so neatly packed, the engines are almost side by side, the arms stored between the empty spaces above and below the cylindrical engines. The wing root is also wider and the entire wing is a delta design, so fuel capacity should be *bigger* than almost any other design. If anything, engine efficiency can be safely expected to be worst.

(*) Exceptions being the VF-4 and maybe some other obscure designs.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Product9]

Is that the new Defender variable destroid?

Haha, maybe. That's what I got when I googled SV-252. It was apparently made by Bombardier, so there's that.

You have a good eye to notice this.

Probably just small caliber bullet, so it's easy to be brushed off by ECA.

Thanks, but to be fair I re-watch stuff a lot and rarely catch stuff like that on the first viewing.

[Seto Kaiba]

I know the stats say that but on M3 you and March admit it might be a mistake and bothered to call it out. I mean look at it, it has the same hip pieces as the 25. The mold looks like it has the guns too.

It seems silly to assume that isn't supposed to be there and that the head guns are projectile in contravention to every other design. I prefer to assume it has the weapons as the 25 does personally.

My theory on this is that the gun ports themselves are a relic of the central body being carryover VF-25 parts... and the actual ammunition/generator feeds being cut off by the armor reinforcement that was done.

I think I (we) got lost in translation, because I am not comparing it to a super pack. Great Mechanics also points to the VF-25 being highly optimized for atmosphere use (thanks, Aaron),

I think this may be another lost-in-translation moment... because the Great Mechanics DX 9 article "VF Evolutionary Theory" doesn't say the VF-25 is a VF optimized for atmospheric service. It just says the VF-25's designers opted for variable sweep wings to improve the airframe's performance in atmosphere.

The VF-25 is, fundamentally, an all-regime variable fighter like the VF-1 or VF-11. Even that article in Great Mechanics DX you're referencing has established that the VF-25's FAST packs are all about adding extra armor and weaponry rather than fuel, and that the boosters are there to offset loss of maneuverability from the extra weight rather than extend range.

as Siegfrieds are also an atmosphere improved Kairos.

I think you may be reading too much into it there as well... Kawamori says the VF-31 stock model and VF-31 custom are functionally identical except for their wingtips and canards. Whether or not the VF-31 is still an all-regime plane is unclear at this point, but the changes made by Xaos are to improve agility at the expense of stability.

The 6th generation YF-29 prototype had the same goal.

The YF-29 is a 5th Generation VF... it's one of the parallel lines of fighter development that emerged from the dissemination of the YF-24 specs.

The YF-29 was developed at the same time as the Project Triangler AVFs (YF-25, YF-26, YF-27), and Macross Chronicle even refers to it as the VF-25's "sibling".

We have yet to see any inkling of a 6th Generation VF... all of the VFs with sequential numbers above 23 have been part of the same development chain and generation. The YF-24 Evolution spec is the common ancestor of them all, and directly gave rise to (meaning the YF-24 blueprints were used as the basis for development of...):

• The Earth/Federal VF-24
• The Frontier fleet Y/VF-25
• The Olympia fleet YF-26
• The Galaxy fleet Y/VF-27
• The Frontier fleet YF-29
• The Uroboros YF-30

The only ones that aren't technically in that group are the YF-29B, a further development of the YF-29, and the VF-31 which was a further development based upon the YF-30.

Based on what's said in this quarter's Great Mechanics G, the Sv-154 is a 4th Generation equivalent, and the Sv-262 is a 5th Generation equivalent, in technological terms. The only hallmark of the 5th Generation that the Draken's missing is EX-Gear.

This is because the Federal NUNS version of the YF-24, and as we often speculate the VF-24 as a result, is way higher spec.

It's sound speculation, given that the YF-24 Evolution is said to have been approved for mass production.

That being said, specs and power aren't necessarily what make a generation. A lot of it also has to do with design methodology, mission parameters, and perhaps more importantly when the design was created. In many ways the levels of progress are steady and marking designs by generation is just an arbitrary thing people like to do to classify them. YF-24 was seen as a new generation due to having quite a fair bit of capability and versatility beyond the mascots of the 4th generation (the VF-19 and 22), but really it is because it was developed later with newer ideas, technology, needs, and knowledge learned from the former designs.

Well... you could argue that specs are, in some ways, used to define what the current generation means. The defining traits of the 4th and 5th generations have been predominantly technical capabilities... rather than performance in flight.

The 4th Generation's distinctive traits are identified as the adoption of the next-gen thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines, fighter-scale pinpoint barriers, an emphasis on combining active and passive stealth technologies in airframe design, the ability to advance to satellite orbit unassisted, and to have native support for fold boosters. Later technical publications added the additional point of having an ARIEL airframe control AI... the next-gen core control system replacing ANGIRAS.

The 5th Generation's distinctive traits were identified as the adoption of a next-generation engine design (Stage II thermonuclear reaction engines), the adoption of ARIEL II airframe control AIs, inertia store converters, EX-Gear HMI systems, and the linear actuator technology.

Things get a little muddier with the 2nd and 3rd generations, since most of their definining traits are operational instead... the 2nd Generation being mostly low-cost regime-optimized VFs intended for emigrant world production and/or fleet escort duty, and the 3rd Generation being a diversification of Variable Fighter design into roles like bombers and attackers. I think that there's one sticking point... whether or not there's a "Zero Generation" in there to separate improvised aircraft like the Sv-51 and VF-0 from the true full-capability VFs of the 1st Generation... which would give rise to a 0.5 Generation fairly swiftly.

There are a few really good examples of .5 generations... the VF-17 and the VF-171 have perfect ones.

The VF-17 made the jump from a 3rd Gen VF to a 3.5 when the -D and -S variants came out with initial type thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines and an improved avionics suite that supported fold boosters. The VF-171 jumped from a 4th Gen to 4.5 when the EX/IIIF upgrade was done, giving it an EX-Gear HMI and anti-beam coating technology borrowed from the VF-25.

To give another perspective on that, the VF-171 is a newer and more recent design than the VF-19, but both are Gen 4, and no one would say the VF-171 is as good or better than the 19.

Aaaaactually... I'm pretty sure the NUNS would say the VF-171 is a better VF than the VF-19 precisely for the reasons you identified. Greater versatility, lower cost of operation and maintenance, and easier handling. It was the 4th Generation VF that even an average pilot could use to the fullest, whereas a VF-19 was a nigh-uncontrollable monster fit for only the very best pilots in the New UN Forces, and was promptly benched as a result... leading Shinsei to spend at least a decade desperately trying to make it less of a bear to use without sacrificing too much of its performance.

Then make it the VF-25 4.5 generation or 4.75, but please take into account that what I am trying to imply is that SV-262 is, or seems, VF-22 like, technology wise, but with some improvement to be able to compare favorably to VF-25s or VF-31s, but not YF-29 or YF-30.

The VF-25 is most definitely a 5th Generation VF.

All indications are that the Sv-262 is as well, given what's said about it and the Sv-154 in Great Mechanics G and what technologies it's explicitly identified as possessing, like Stage II thermonuclear reaction engines, ISC, railgun and heavy quantum beam gunpods, etc.

[Aries Turner]

Great Mechanics DX 9 article "VF Evolutionary Theory" doesn't say the VF-25 is a VF optimized for atmospheric service. It just says the VF-25's designers opted for variable sweep wings to improve the airframe's performance in atmosphere.

Errr... exactly. Why bother if not to optimize it for atmosphere use?

Kawamori says the VF-31 stock model and VF-31 custom are functionally identical except for their wingtips and canards. Whether or not the VF-31 is still an all-regime plane is unclear at this point, but the changes made by Xaos are to improve agility at the expense of stability.

But they are not talking about space-bound agility here, nor better placing of verniers. Forward swept wings are notorious for improving atmospheric maneuverability. Kawamori also stated he did the Siegfried that way to not give both factions a delta design, so that is the real world explanation for the Siegfrieds resembling Basara's VF-19s, but the in-universe design is thus clearly for improved atmospheric capability.

On a side note, Kawamori also strongly implied the Siegfrieds were a less lethal Kairos, while still better armed than Basara's VF-19. Siegfrieds are for the aerial show, adding to the spectacle that is Wälkure, and for defending them, the spectators and even the Var affected citizens. That explains why it is way undergunned.

The only hallmark of the 5th Generation that the Draken's missing is EX-Gear.

And mounting an inferior fold system 'reheat' that only improves thrust.

I was also citing Aarons's Great Mechanics G translation when quoting the SV-262 transformation method and how *it doesn't* limit fuel storage capability. What do you make of that?

Edited October 2, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

Errr... exactly. Why bother if not to optimize it for atmosphere use?

Simply put, it was to give the VF-25 the level of all-regime performance the Frontier fleet NUNS was so insistent upon. At the time the VF-25 was developed, most of the VFs in service were optimized for use in space, like the VF-171 Nightmare Plus or the VF-19 2nd production type.

The Frontier fleet put a great deal of importance on all-regime performance, so much so that when they developed their own local variant of the VF-19 they retooled the design to make it better suited for an all-regime role. The VF-25's design reflects that same philosophy which places atmospheric performance on an equal footing to space performance.

When I say "optimized" I mean that the fighter was literally optimized for one regime to the extent that its performance in others actually suffers. We first saw this with the VF-4, the first of the 2nd Generation VFs that was so heavily optimized for space combat that it was a rather mediocre fighter in atmosphere and had to be supplemented with a fighter optimized to fight in atmosphere (the VF-5000). The VF-19 2nd mass production type is another example, an all-regime fighter that was retooled into a space fighter... its canards were removed, wings were truncated, the aerodynamics were simplified, and many new verniers were added.

Forward swept wings are notorious for improving atmospheric maneuverability.

Yes, but he noted that the designs are functionally identical except for the fact that those small design changes moved the aerodynamic center further back. They didn't for instance, go in and strip out the space-use equipment or change the body styling for better aerodynamics, or anything like that. Just a wingtip and canard change to adjust the fighter's balance to make it more agile at low altitudes.

On a side note, Kawamori also strongly implied the Siegfrieds were a less lethal Kairos, while still better armed than Basara's VF-19.

Considering Basara's VF-19 Custom was almost completely unarmed for most of its service life, that isn't exactly a close-run contest...

And mounting an inferior fold system 'reheat' that only improves thrust.I was also citing Aarons's Great Mechanics G translation when quoting the SV-262 transformation method and how *it doesn't* limit fuel storage capability. What do you make of that?

The fold wave system isn't mentioned as one of the hallmarks of the 5th Generation, no doubt because the system is too prohibitively expensive for widespread deployment.

With respect to the Sv-262's transformation method and fuel capacity, the published stats for the Sv-262 Draken III do clearly and unambiguously indicate that its transformation design is to blame for it having less internal space for fuel and therefore reduced endurance and short cruising range in space. I'm not sure how you're getting the opposite out of an article which doesn't even talk about the Draken III's transformation or performance.

[Aries Turner]

When I say "optimized" I mean that the fighter was literally optimized for one regime to the extent that its performance in others actually suffers.

OK, I give you that.

Considering Basara's VF-19 Custom was almost completely unarmed for most of its service life, that isn't exactly a close-run contest...

No, that isn't. We mecha fans should be almost glad the Siegfrieds didn't sport an all missiles defensive weaponry and a speaker gunpod.

With respect to the Sv-262's transformation method and fuel capacity, the published stats for the Sv-262 Draken III do clearly and unambiguously indicate that its transformation design is to blame for it having less internal space for fuel and therefore reduced endurance and short cruising range in space. I'm not sure how you're getting the opposite out of an article which doesn't even talk about the Draken III's transformation or performance.

First things first: if it is stated, black on white, no further discussion is needed. It is as written.

That being said, I just failed to point to the link that stated that Kawamori refined its origami techniques to pack legs and arms even closer than ever before (pg 6), and given that real life delta designs have bigger fuel tanks inside that larger wings, it wasn't difficult to reach my conclusion. But, as stated before, if for whatever reason, fuel tanks are counter-intuitively actually smaller, then those are.

[Edit]: While browsing the japanese wikipedia, I noticed something about the VF-31 super parts. VF-25 super parts weight 28,000 Kg, while armored weight 40,000 Kg or 52,000 Kg when including the fighter (that weights less than 12,000 Kg when empty, so I assume the VF-25 weights that when fueled and armed). VF-31 super parts may rest in between, at 38,000 Kg, but again it isn't clear to me if that figure includes fighter weight or not. Armored parts seemed beefier than VF-25 super pack armor.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

No, that isn't. We mecha fans should be almost glad the Siegfrieds didn't sport an all missiles defensive weaponry and a speaker gunpod.

Oh, absolutely. There's a reason most of us never bothered to level Basara and his VF-19 Custom in Macross 30... he's bloody useless in an actual stand-up fight.

First things first: if it is stated, black on white, no further discussion is needed. It is as written.

That being said, I just failed to point to the link that stated that Kawamori refined its origami techniques to pack legs and arms even closer than ever before (pg 6), and given that real life delta designs have bigger fuel tanks inside that larger wings, it wasn't difficult to reach my conclusion. But, as stated before, if for whatever reason, fuel tanks are counter-intuitively actually smaller, then those are.

Well, yes... it is written, black on white, though IIRC the stats pamphlet from the 1/72 Sv-262Hs Draken III was actually a four-color print job.

The Sv-262's limbs being packed closer together than ever, while making up almost the entire central body of the aircraft, is actually the problem. Normally one of the main fuel tanks is located inside of the engine nacelles (lower legs), and the wings being articulated and structurally reinforced to be attachment points for the Lilldrakens reduces the amount of fuel that could be stored in there as well. The Draken III hasn't got any really big, immobile sections where fuel can be stored in large quantities the way most other VFs do.

One of the most important factors to remember when you're talking about variable fighters and fuel is that a thermonuclear reaction turbine engine is a good three orders of magnitude more efficient in atmospheric flight than it is in space operations. I really cannot stress that enough. The VF-1 Valkyrie's FF-2001 thermonuclear reaction turbine engines could run 3,600 times longer in atmosphere than in space on the exact same amount of fuel. We're talking a difference between 2,350mL/s and 0.6527mL/s. A variable fighter optimized for atmospheric service can reasonably cut back on the amount of fuel it's carrying and devote all of that extra space and mass to things like armor reinforcement while still carrying enough fuel to operate for weeks between refuelings if need be. Since the Sv-262 was intended for hit-and-run attacks, having a more limited fuel supply wasn't really a significant design flaw. Because they don't have numbers on their side, if they don't get in and out quick they're dead either way.

[Aries Turner]

Makes sense. Real fighters put the engines 'inside' that main tank. VFs, however, have entire wing sections made for shoulders and arm joints, but the reinforcement issue (and the entire wing pivoting) makes sense.

Seems we both were writing at the same time. Care to look into the super parts weight issue I put in the [Edit] section?

Edited October 3, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

[Edit]: While browsing the japanese wikipedia, I noticed something about the VF-31 super parts. VF-25 super parts weight 28,000 Kg, while armored weight 40,000 Kg or 52,000 Kg when including the fighter (that weights less than 12,000 Kg when empty, so I assume the VF-25 weights that when fueled and armed). VF-31 super parts may rest in between, at 38,000 Kg, but again it isn't clear to me if that figure includes fighter weight or not. Armored parts seemed beefier than VF-25 super pack armor.

OK, so... Super and Armored Pack masses.

The VF-25 w/ SPS-25S/MF25 Super Pack has a standard operating mass of 28,000kg... that's including all of the fuel in the packs and the fighter, all of the ordinance carried in the Super Pack, etc. Take out that 15,000kg of weapons and fuel in the packs, and you're left with an 8,450kg fighter and 4,550kg of extra mass attributed to the fighter's fuel, the gunpod, and the empty mass of the booster elements of the NP-FAD-23 FAST pack. The fuel used in variable fighters has a very low mass of just 0.085 kilograms per liter (hydrogen slush), so I'd wager the VF-25's internally-carried fuel mass is probably only around 455kg of that 4,550kg of excess mass (equivalent to the full fuel capacity of the VF-1 Super Valkyrie with conformal tanks).

The VF-25's standard operating mass with the APS-25A/MF25 Armored Pack is 52,000kg. We know 40,000kg of that is the pack itself... 9,000kg of ordinance, 15,000kg of fuel, and 16,000kg of the actual body of the pack itself. That, as you say, points to a VF-25 "naked" operating mass of around 12,000kg (3,550kg of which is fuel, other consumables, and weapons).

For the VF-31's Super Pack, they're giving a standard operating mass of 38,000kg, and they're citing that 16,875kg of that is the pack's fuel and ordinance. That means that the actual pack is a surprisingly weighty affair much closer to the VF-25's Armored Pack in mass than its Super Pack. I doubt the VF-31's carrying much more fuel than the VF-25 in its internal tanks, so I'd wager there's probably around 450-500kg of that is fuel carried internally. Take out a ton or two for the gun pod and you're left with around 10,000-11,000kg of pack mass once you've subtracted the VF-31's 8,525kg from the equation.

So, as it stacks up by estimate:

VF-25 Armored Pack: 16,000kg

VF-31 Super Pack: ~10,000kg

VF-25 Super Pack: ~2,000kg

The VF-31's Super Pack really must be layering on additional armor, otherwise it must be really badly designed to weigh THAT much.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Aries Turner]

Waiting further confirmation, that seems to point we have not seen tentatively named APS-31 because SPS-31 falls in between. Having not one but two shields may aid at that. Jack of all trades.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

Waiting further confirmation, that seems to point we have not seen tentatively named APS-31 because SPS-31 falls in between. Having not one but two shields may aid at that. Jack of all trades.

I'm not sure mass is necessarily a factor in classification... after Macross Frontier screwed the usual convention of an Armored Pack being a big, bulky chunk of bolt-on armor that prevented transformation, the "big and bulky" part seems to be all that's left. Stylistically, the VF-31's FAST packs appear to be a Super Pack, and to the best of my knowledge that's what Bandai is calling it in their model kits... so I guess it'd be SPS-31, even though they never actually use the term Super Pack during the show. The terms used as "Protection units" for the bolt-on armor segments (said in English) and MMP Booster Pack for the actual boosters we most commonly associate with a Super Pack.

Edit: I noticed one interesting detail while I was reviewing the scenes in Ep6 for the dialog relating to the VF-31's FAST pack. As expected, the packs contain a fair amount of additional fuel for the fighter to use to extend its operating time in space... but what's unexpected is that they appear to be taking a leaf from the VF-1 and VF-19's books by repurposing part of the boundary layer control system and active airflow management system as a fuel tank. They've capped the BLCS intakes on the dorsal fuselage with conformal fuel tanks. If they're actually filling the BLCS intake with a fuel bladder, that could potentially add several hundred to several thousand more liters of fuel.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[trojan_gambit]

So, as it stacks up by estimate:

VF-25 Armored Pack: 16,000kg

VF-31 Super Pack: ~10,000kg

VF-25 Super Pack: ~2,000kg

The VF-31's Super Pack really must be layering on additional armor, otherwise it must be really badly designed to weigh THAT much.

Maybe the weight of the Sound-Booster container is included ?

[Seto Kaiba]

Maybe the weight of the Sound-Booster container is included ?

I doubt it... the VF-31's Super Pack doesn't seem to be even as big as the VF-25's despite being five times as heavy, but I can't quite see the VF-31 equipping an ordinance container that weighs as much as the plane itself.

[JB0]

No, that isn't. We mecha fans should be almost glad the Siegfrieds didn't sport an all missiles defensive weaponry and a speaker gunpod.

The speaker pod cannon was brutal, really. Fortunately for Basara's pacifist reputation, the only time any of the safety measures on his smart projectiles failed was in-atmosphere, and it was only the adhesive sealant so the thing just fell through the hole and landed in the cockpit floor.

But let's be honest, as silly as the weapon was, it consistently punched holes in a mech roughly equivalent to a VF-14 with one round. And had they filled those things with a non-sonic warhead... a shaped charge would've made them REALLY nasty, considering the pods' ability to always strike warhead-forward even in atmosphere where I would expect such an aerodynamically-backwards projectile to tumble. I reckon a speaker pod is halfway to a micromissile already.

Though I admit to being curious as to the ammo capacity with it firing such large "bullets".

[Aries Turner]

Maybe those 10,000Kg of 'mystery' still wait for the fighter weight to be substracted. After all, APS-25 figures for *standard operating mass* include it.

[RedWolf]

Not Macross but Gundam IBO season 2 ep 1 Mika mentions the Inertia Store Converter. Okada might be amused Kawamori is using Newtypes in Macross Delta.

[Master Dex]

Not Macross but Gundam IBO season 2 ep 1 Mika mentions the Inertia Store Converter. Okada might be amused Kawamori is using Newtypes in Macross Delta.

While amusing it is worth noting the ISC first appeared in Macross Frontier, which aired in 2008. IBO first aired in 2015. So unless the ISC has a mention in any older Gundam shows, especially any predating Frontier, it is more like they got the idea from Kawamori, heh.

[Seto Kaiba]

Maybe those 10,000Kg of 'mystery' still wait for the fighter weight to be substracted. After all, APS-25 figures for *standard operating mass* include it.

Nope... if you go back a little further up in my post where I broke down the masses of the FAST packs, that 10,000kg or so is the mass of the VF-31's FAST packs on their own, after subtracting the mass of the fuel and munitions the pack contains and the mass of the fighter itself.

Not Macross but Gundam IBO season 2 ep 1 Mika mentions the Inertia Store Converter. Okada might be amused Kawamori is using Newtypes in Macross Delta.

While amusing it is worth noting the ISC first appeared in Macross Frontier, which aired in 2008. IBO first aired in 2015. So unless the ISC has a mention in any older Gundam shows, especially any predating Frontier, it is more like they got the idea from Kawamori, heh.

I've not seen the episode yet, but I do recall most of the salient technical points from last season... and I'm pretty sure they don't have inertia store converter technology.

ISC technology in Macross insulates a cockpit (and airframe) from high g-forces by using a dimensional shift to temporarily displace and store those inertial forces in fold space and return them to the aircraft in a controlled fashion later. It doesn't negate inertial forces, it just buffers them so the pilot doesn't experience sudden changes in g-force loads that could cause the pilot harm or result in loss of control. If you were to graph the g-force the fighter sustains, what the ISC is doing is clipping peaks and filling valleys.

If I understand the materials published for G-Tekketsu last season, an Ahab reactor is some form of quantum generator fueled by baryonic matter kept in a vacuum chamber, which produces exotic particles that interfere with most forms of electromagnetic waves. The "Ahab particles" produced in the reaction have some gravimetric effects, and are harnessed to provide modest artificial gravity on starships and in mobile suit cockpits. Essentially, cockpit blocks on mobile suits have a limited form of inertial damping thanks to rudimentary artificial gravity technology. (This apparently requires the cockpit to be in very close proximity to the Ahab reactor... or, in the case of Gundam frames, to be between the frames's twin Ahab reactors.) The mobile suit is apparently cancelling, rather than buffering, those g-forces with its own gravitational field.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Ghostbear0]

I'd have to rewatch the episode but I think Mike mentions it in conjunction with a high altitude drop.

Its weird IBO is one of the most grounded find an in a while while delta goes full newtype nakeed space flying.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Ghostbear0

[Aries Turner]

Nope... if you go back a little further up in my post where I broke down the masses of the FAST packs, that 10,000kg or so is the mass of the VF-31's FAST packs on their own, after subtracting the mass of the fuel and munitions the pack contains and the mass of the fighter itself.

True, I forgot you had that into account. SPS-25 official weight figure clearly states it is *only* the pack, while tentatively named SPS-31 uses the same formula as the one given for the APS-25, adding the fighter mass to the number.

Then, it is as you stated: or the 'SPS-31' is highly inefficient, or it is clearly more heavily armored. As a defensive fighter, it makes sense. However, Kairos should have both a lighter SPS and a heavier APS. Kawamori already stated the VF-25 was an opportunity for him to make 'a modern VF-1', and the VF-31 is his opportunity to make 'a modern VF-11' (the fast packs have a strong resemblance to VF-11 ones). However, the armored VF-11 was kind of super-heavy, and it is a real pity we couldn't see a modern incarnation of that.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Aries Turner

[JB0]

While amusing it is worth noting the ISC first appeared in Macross Frontier, which aired in 2008. IBO first aired in 2015. So unless the ISC has a mention in any older Gundam shows, especially any predating Frontier, it is more like they got the idea from Kawamori, heh.

And Frontier stole it from Star Trek's "inertial dampers", and Trek probably wasn't the first with the idea.

[trojan_gambit]

And Frontier stole it from Star Trek's "inertial dampers", and Trek probably wasn't the first with the idea.

Shock absorber...anyone ?

[Master Dex]

Oh of course not, I never meant to imply Kawamori developed the idea of that at all. I'm a hardcore Trekkie too, but the idea of any inertial damping, cancelling, or buffering is definitely way older than even that.

All I was saying is that the specific term ISC likely started with Frontier, and certainly wasn't in Gundam first.

[JB0]

Shock absorber...anyone ?

Which show was that in?

(Joking, joking!)

[Aries Turner]

Leslie Nielsen's 'Forbidden Planet'?

[Seto Kaiba]

And Frontier stole it from Star Trek's "inertial dampers", and Trek probably wasn't the first with the idea.

The idea of an inertial protection system is one of those "as old as sci-fi" tropes.... but Frontier's ISC is actually one of the most unusual takes on it that I've ever seen, principally because it isn't magically cancelling inertia, it's actually acknowledging conservation of energy and only storing that energy before returning it to the aircraft.

G-Tekketsu's is a more traditional inertial damper, canceling out g-forces with an antigravity field.

[Zinjo]

The speaker pod cannon was brutal, really. Fortunately for Basara's pacifist reputation, the only time any of the safety measures on his smart projectiles failed was in-atmosphere, and it was only the adhesive sealant so the thing just fell through the hole and landed in the cockpit floor.

But let's be honest, as silly as the weapon was, it consistently punched holes in a mech roughly equivalent to a VF-14 with one round. And had they filled those things with a non-sonic warhead... a shaped charge would've made them REALLY nasty, considering the pods' ability to always strike warhead-forward even in atmosphere where I would expect such an aerodynamically-backwards projectile to tumble. I reckon a speaker pod is halfway to a micromissile already.

Though I admit to being curious as to the ammo capacity with it firing such large "bullets".

Anime "magic" which proliferated that show.... If there were a reasonable way to exploit an "actual" projectile that could perform such stunts, it would have appeared again as an actual weapons system. As you say, its tactical applications would be fairly devastating in combat.

I've not seen the episode yet, but I do recall most of the salient technical points from last season... and I'm pretty sure they don't have inertia store converter technology.

ISC technology in Macross insulates a cockpit (and airframe) from high g-forces by using a dimensional shift to temporarily displace and store those inertial forces in fold space and return them to the aircraft in a controlled fashion later. It doesn't negate inertial forces, it just buffers them so the pilot doesn't experience sudden changes in g-force loads that could cause the pilot harm or result in loss of control. If you were to graph the g-force the fighter sustains, what the ISC is doing is clipping peaks and filling valleys.

The ISC system likely uses a set of Ultra Capacitor tuned to Super Dimension space to achieve this effect.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

Anime "magic" which proliferated that show.... If there were a reasonable way to exploit an "actual" projectile that could perform such stunts, it would have appeared again as an actual weapons system. As you say, its tactical applications would be fairly devastating in combat.

Well... the way it's described, the speaker pod launcher sounds like it's likely a cousin of the high-speed armor-piercing rocket launchers commonly found on Armored Pack. The line art for the speaker pods themselves shows they have a small rocket motor affixed to the rear, so the only major difference would be that the speaker pods aren't carrying a lethal load of OTM-based explosives.

The ISC system likely uses a set of Ultra Capacitor tuned to Super Dimension space to achieve this effect.

From the description, it sounds more like the ISC system is temporarily displacing the energy into super dimension space rather than into a specific "capacitor"...