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it's evident some scenes in DYRL are really grainy and some not(those scenes that are blurry/soft) very contrasting backgrounds between scenes. the film look really grainy esp. in the intro. then it's super waxy clean, very inconsistent scene to scene.

i think they tried to clean the picture up as best they could but over did it.

The vast majority of the softer scenes are the ones with the subtitles for the zentradi. Back in those days those were added optically: by finishing the animation master film, then adding a layer of subtitles on top and rephotographing both together. That always results in quality loss and in this case clearly not the best care was taken. No amount of digital cleaning can fix crappy photography.

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The vast majority of the softer scenes are the ones with the subtitles for the zentradi.

That's not true, the blurred scenes are everywhere. You can tell they are out-of-focus optically.

The grainy scenes are the ones with motion. It looks like the DNR only works for static scenes. My guess is that their idea of improvement is that they were able to remove all the noise. :D

Well, not to knock them, but if they were being conservative the first time round and now they could remove all the noise, then it is likely they could do it correctly. DNR is always very easy to overapply...

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Guest davidwhangchoi

Noise reduction is not an upscaling technique. It's a different thing.

Note: I do not own the DYRL BR, and have no real frame of reference here.

yes, it was repeated to me 2x :), i hear the echo :p

The vast majority of the softer scenes are the ones with the subtitles for the zentradi. Back in those days those were added optically: by finishing the animation master film, then adding a layer of subtitles on top and rephotographing both together. That always results in quality loss and in this case clearly not the best care was taken. No amount of digital cleaning can fix crappy photography.

i didn't notice the subtitles being an issue, the scene with the zentran subs in the intro actually looks really clear (though that scene has lots of noise in the background,) in contrast, assuming you have a copy of the blu ray hybird disc, take a look during the space scene, after the alarm interrupts the concert, at the dark areas in space while skull squad is lining up. the noise grain pattern is smeared/smoothed over but the overall picture is given a softer look. next, take a look at the in-cockpit scene when hikaru engages gerwalk and gets kickback whiplash, the noise is more pronounced but the picture is sharp. the very next scene of the HUD is blurred but has that wax look w/ the background noise looking smeared. it's inconsistent.

my guess it the source material is old with lots of noise: they cherry picked and chose scenes that are dark with lots of black to apply different levels of DNR. i'd prefer if they left everything like the opening scene immediately when britai is appears on screen. (though it does look like an old vhs tape)

Edited by davidwhangchoi
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Guest davidwhangchoi

The blurry scenes aren't due to DNR, it's to do with varying degree's of quality in the sourced filmstock.

please explain the noise/grain smooth over in those pictures. scenes that are soft.

Edited by davidwhangchoi
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I don't have a PC BD drive, or capture card. But compare any given blurry scene with it's older DVD release counterpart. Heavy DNR also causes more in the way of flat looking loss of detail than a blur effect.

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Honestly my biggest interest is the edited scenes being restored. That music change doesn't really bother me all that much.

Second if they can get it looking better then that's great, but I understand the source material can limit what you can do.

For the record... I lol'ed at the upscale claim as well. The word "upscale" is miss-used so often.

Edited by Strider77
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Guest davidwhangchoi

I don't have a PC BD drive, or capture card. But compare any given blurry scene with it's older DVD release counterpart. Heavy DNR also causes more in the way of flat looking loss of detail than a blur effect.

i have been A and B ing it since i received my blu ray copy at launch, i watch DYRL often, those blurred scenes on the blu ray are sharper on the dvd or should i say more consistent on the dvd... but it's irrelevant to compare the blu ray to dvd bc the dvd being up-converted by an hdtv or dvd player, there's no way of knowing how much is the source or player making it look sharper than the blu ray for those specific scenes.

i don't own an oppo but my tv is adequate at upconverting.

what was original source shot in? 35mm? native should be about 3k, so remastering to to 1080p would not be any issue, if the source were remastered from previous transfers then it's quite possible the source or process could be the culprit. Star Wars original trilogy HD used 1993 Definitive Edition Laser Disc Master - upscale by Mattman Omega. it's not out of the realm if DYRL may have used masters other than the film itself. which then has to be up converted.

does any one know the sources used for dryl remaster? were they from digital storage and/or film?

i hear you saying it was part of the original 35mm film... but it's really hard to confirm from comparing the dvd's as you suggested which do appear sharper on dvd btw,... but i know that no one up to this point has complained of blurry/sharp scenes contrasts until this bluray release. it could've been part of the original film but i've never seen in the theater. i think i still have my copy of clash of the bioroids...

does anyone know a link to confirm the original sources used for the bluray?

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Most of it should have been 35mm, some may likely be 16mm for various reasons. It's already established that an intact audio mix is included. And while conjecture at this point, this version should be unedited due to lack of game, and fan backlash.

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Guest davidwhangchoi

Most of it should have been 35mm, some may likely be 16mm for various reasons. It's already established that an intact audio mix is included. And while conjecture at this point, this version should be unedited due to lack of game, and fan backlash.

and that same compressed 448kb/s audio codec is a straight port from a previous transfer... i wish they at least release it at a higher bitrate or an uncompressed lossless format. sorry edit. linear pcm

i sure hope they release an unedited version: more than the edits, i hope they fix the inconsistent picture. i found a decent A and B reference, not the best, but the 1080i upscaled blu ray flashback 2012 dyrl scenes vs. the bluray. since it's in bluray format it'll play natively in 1080i/p defeating any upscale hardware/software on a laptop/player/1080hdtv. (laptop or monitor has to be a native 16:9 1080p, using no under or overscan, higher or lower will engage up/downscale)

the picture definitely sharper on the bluray upscale flashback than the dyrl remaster.

easy evidence: watch Sunset Beach when hikaru turns his vt-1 around to see Saturn's rainbow swirl, the shot focused on the VT-1' canopy. the dialogue: Hikaru: "Now then open your eyes." (focus on Hikaru's face/eye)

I suspect the original negatives didn't hold up too well so they overdid it with the filters. whatever they used, whether it's DNR or not, softens the lines/edges around the characters/picture giving an overall blurry look. i hope they fix it since it's not present in the dvd transfers or the flashback blu ray.

i'll be keeping up some hope for this release.

Edited by davidwhangchoi
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I'll be watching this thread hoping you videophiles will compare and review to see if there is any real improvement. I'd hate double dipping, but if it gets me a better quality image I'm in. I'm glad it's not a special version with tons of goodies that would have jacked up the price.

Edited by sharky
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I sense some 'big ego' company is behind all this. :ph34r: HG-sense tingling. :wacko:

I would find that hard to believe considering HG has zero standing in the Japanese market and Bandai Visual can release what they want under whatever excuse they want to give. "Subtitled for Japanese audiences learning English, etc...)

HG can't block Personal imports of Japanese exported Macross products, Yamato took care of that nonsense a decade ago. So as consumers we can purchase any Macross products from Japan without interference.

Edited by Zinjo
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It wasn't an upscale.

If it wasn't then the source negative is in pretty bad shape to require so much. 35mm film will have substantially more resolution than a 2K Bluray transfer. So once the film stock is digitally cleaned up it should be near perfect, but that costs.

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Most of it should have been 35mm, some may likely be 16mm for various reasons. It's already established that an intact audio mix is included. And while conjecture at this point, this version should be unedited due to lack of game, and fan backlash.

The editing had nothing to do with the inclusion of a game and if by 'fan backlash' you are referring to comments on this board, it might be worth keeping in mind that Bandai Visual will not put any stock in comments made by a market they can not legally sell to.
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The editing had nothing to do with the inclusion of a game and if by 'fan backlash' you are referring to comments on this board, it might be worth keeping in mind that Bandai Visual will not put any stock in comments made by a market they can not legally sell to.

There was a lot of fan backlash in Japanese. 2chan exploded. It must have been pretty bad for BandaiNamco to have put a message on their homepage saying that even though there is an option to change the version of the movie on the BD from "new BD edition" to "original theatrical version", that the "処理" was present in both. Sounds like "Buyer beware"/"damage control" to me.

I'm very intrigued as to what this new disc will bring to the table, since we know that they are touting it as being "even higher quality"... Wait and see.

If it wasn't then the source negative is in pretty bad shape to require so much. 35mm film will have substantially more resolution than a 2K Bluray transfer. So once the film stock is digitally cleaned up it should be near perfect, but that costs.

I don't know, but I agree with Keith, that most of the blurry shots are most likely there because that is the way they were filmed -- out of focus. If you took a blurry photo in the mid-90s you can clean the negatives all you like, but you cannot "focus" the image. Some of them are so bad that they are visibly different even on the VHS and LD releases.

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And this is why I avoid 2-chan like the plague. :-)

Reactions among the fans and Twitter were decidedly less harsh.

But fair enough. Doesn't change the fact that the edits had absolutely nothing to do with there being a game on the disc though ;-)

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Guest davidwhangchoi

I'm very intrigued as to what this new disc will bring to the table, since we know that they are touting it as being "even higher quality"... Wait and see.

I don't know, but I agree with Keith, that most of the blurry shots are most likely there because that is the way they were filmed -- out of focus. If you took a blurry photo in the mid-90s you can clean the negatives all you like, but you cannot "focus" the image. Some of them are so bad that they are visibly different even on the VHS and LD releases.

not sure which scenes you are referring to. can you post some examples? and whose to say it wasn't transferred poorly to LD? it's pretty clear the initial dvd transfer was inferior to the remastered perfect edition dvd.

if any cheap upscale dvd player, can produce a decent focused picture better than the blu ray remaster, it's sorta hard to argue.

did you look at the example i posted between the flashblack blu ray and dyrl blu ray? it's not blurred on the dvd.

"...it is entirely possible to restore older films to ‘as-new’ condition without compromising their integrity. However, it is not an inexpensive process, which leads many companies to take the cheaper option of digitally manipulating an older master to create a ‘new’ transfer. It’s unfortunate, and I wish that said companies would simply present a film-like image on their catalogue releases rather than scrubbing them to the point of distraction." -Old Films on Blu ray: Are They Worth it? attempts to dispel the myth that old films aren't worth the BD treatment.

they went in and recolored some sh!t, who knows what else they did. they may have used the 35mm/16mm as the source but please don't tell me after they editing out scenes, editing the audio, recolored scenes, but they didn't attempt scrub it. isn't it a hint that the grain patterns have been altered?

i guess we'll just wait and hope the second release is better. (i'm skeptical)

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And this is why I avoid 2-chan like the plague. :-)

Reactions among the fans and Twitter were decidedly less harsh.

But fair enough. Doesn't change the fact that the edits had absolutely nothing to do with there being a game on the disc though ;-)

Actually, the edits are exactly because of the included game. Current CERO ratings prohibit the presence of "any" exploding head gore, which was precicely what was edited. The release was considered a game, which is why Amazon.jp wouldn't export it. Bandai Visual has not before (or after) edited any anime releases that did not carry a game combo. This was 100% a case of altering the movie due to the Japanese game rating board requiring it as part of the release.

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Actually, the edits are exactly because of the included game. Current CERO ratings prohibit the presence of "any" exploding head gore, which was precicely what was edited. The release was considered a game, which is why Amazon.jp wouldn't export it. Bandai Visual has not before (or after) edited any anime releases that did not carry a game combo. This was 100% a case of altering the movie due to the Japanese game rating board requiring it as part of the release.

It has never been stated by anyone involved with the release that this was the specific reason. And unless it is then this is speculation based on YOUR opinion, period.

And as someone who (a)works for a Japanese videogame publisher, (b)just spent 3 hours with Shoji Kawamori and ©has spoken with several persons involved in the release, I can say without reservation that your speculation/opinions in this case are unfortunately wrong.

The changes far preceded any consideration of CERO submission in the project. Given what I've been told in confidence, that's as much as I can say, although I will point out that I've confirmed what I've been told with multiple related parties.

As with everything I do with the podcast, my main two concerns with Macross and information surrounding it are (a)providing context and (b)correcting misinformation. The reality of being, at times, so close to the franchise however is that there are things mentioned to me and others in confidence and we respect that confidence as best we can. Speculation is fine. It's a sign that a franchise has a healthy fanbase. But when such speculation doesn't take into consideration the context surrounding it or is wrong to the point of being misinformation then I simply must speak up.

Furthermore, the censored version of DYRL has been the only one to get theatrical screenings ever since it was made (at least 3 or 4 time in multiple cinemas and festivals). This is despite there being perfectly acceptable 35mm prints available and not all the cinemas it played in being 100% digital.

The censored version has been pushed as THE definitive remaster ever since it was made and that has absolutely nothing to do with CERO.

There is/has been an agenda at play.

Now will the new release be censored? I've talked to people and been unable to get a clear answer one way or the other.

The fact that they aren't shouting 'now uncensored' in the press release/announcement leads me to suspect it will be the same censored cut however this is merely speculation on my part at this point and nothing more.

I hope to be proven wrong, fingers crossed.

Edited by Tochiro
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I am still not convinced that the DYRL BD was censored for the video game.

The Frontier BD / playstation games also had graphic violence, but no scenes were censored.

Perhaps, the two minor gory scenes were blurred just enough to reassert copyright control of DYRL

for Big West?

Has anybody done a scene by scene comparison of the DYRL BD with the DRYL remastered DVD to

see which scenes looked better?

I wouldn't mind seeing a better DYRL BD because there is room for a little improvement.

At the very least, I am hoping for the new DYRL BD to have the censored scenes included as a bonus extra.

The new DYRL BD subtitled in English along with the director's commentary would be my wish.

******

I posted before I saw what Tochiro wrote.

Edited by boinger
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Guest davidwhangchoi

I don't really care about edited scenes or blurriness, I just want some english subs. If they have that, I'll buy.

if you don't care about blurriness, what's the point of getting it on blu ray? if you don't care about the picture quality, you can get a copy of the fx w/ subs on dvd

Edited by davidwhangchoi
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It has never been stated by anyone involved with the release that this was the specific reason. And unless it is then this is speculation based on YOUR opinion, period.

And as someone who (a)works for a Japanese videogame publisher, (b)just spent 3 hours with Shoji Kawamori and ©has spoken with several persons involved in the release, I can say without reservation that your speculation/opinions in this case are unfortunately wrong.

The changes far preceded any consideration of CERO submission in the project. Given what I've been told in confidence, that's as much as I can say, although I will point out that I've confirmed what I've been told with multiple related parties.

As with everything I do with the podcast, my main two concerns with Macross and information surrounding it are (a)providing context and (b)correcting misinformation. The reality of being, at times, so close to the franchise however is that there are things mentioned to me and others in confidence and we respect that confidence as best we can. Speculation is fine. It's a sign that a franchise has a healthy fanbase. But when such speculation doesn't take into consideration the context surrounding it or is wrong to the point of being misinformation then I simply must speak up.

Furthermore, the censored version of DYRL has been the only one to get theatrical screenings ever since it was made (at least 3 or 4 time in multiple cinemas and festivals). This is despite there being perfectly acceptable 35mm prints available and not all the cinemas it played in being 100% digital.

The censored version has been pushed as THE definitive remaster ever since it was made and that has absolutely nothing to do with CERO.

There is/has been an agenda at play.

Now will the new release be censored? I've talked to people and been unable to get a clear answer one way or the other.

The fact that they aren't shouting 'now uncensored' in the press release/announcement leads me to suspect it will be the same censored cut however this is merely speculation on my part at this point and nothing more.

I hope to be proven wrong, fingers crossed.

If that'a the case, then the only reason left would be lowering the theatrevscreening age, as home releases still don't seem to have an issue showing head gore. Broadcast anime has taken to shadow blurring it in recent seasons though, Jojo stands out (pun) as having done this.

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if you don't care about blurriness, what's the point of getting it on blu ray? if you don't care about the picture quality, you can get a copy of the fx w/ subs on dvd

Because you need that lossless audio!
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If that'a the case, then the only reason left would be lowering the theatrevscreening age, as home releases still don't seem to have an issue showing head gore. Broadcast anime has taken to shadow blurring it in recent seasons though, Jojo stands out (pun) as having done this.

Actually no. Since it is often shown in all-night Macross screening festivals and events there has been an age limit enforced on occasions.
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the picture definitely sharper on the bluray upscale flashback than the dyrl remaster.

easy evidence: watch Sunset Beach when hikaru turns his vt-1 around to see Saturn's rainbow swirl, the shot focused on the VT-1' canopy. the dialogue: Hikaru: "Now then open your eyes." (focus on Hikaru's face/eye)

Are you talking about this scene?

post-128-0-51121300-1446729436_thumb.png

Because if you are, I'm sorry to say the FB2012 one is also blurred. It's just not as obvious.

From the remastered DVD (resized for correct AR):

post-128-0-95827500-1446730063_thumb.png

Edited by nhyone
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Guest davidwhangchoi

the FB2012 one is also blurred. It's just not as obvious.

and that same compressed 448kb/s audio codec is a straight port from a previous transfer... i wish they at least release it at a higher bitrate or an uncompressed lossless format. sorry edit. linear pcm

i have been A and B ing it since i received my blu ray copy at launch, i watch DYRL often, those blurred scenes on the blu ray are sharper on the dvd or should i say more consistent on the dvd... but it's irrelevant to compare the blu ray to dvd bc the dvd being up-converted by an hdtv or dvd player, there's no way of knowing how much is the source or player making it look sharper than the blu ray for those specific scenes.

i don't own an oppo but my tv is adequate at upconverting.

i found a decent A and B reference, not the best, but the 1080i upscaled blu ray flashback 2012 dyrl scenes vs. the bluray. since it's in bluray format it'll play natively in 1080i/p defeating any upscale hardware/software on a laptop/player/1080hdtv. (laptop or monitor has to be a native 16:9 1080p, using no under or overscan, higher or lower will engage up/downscale)

as quoted above, it's not a good A B comparison bc the screen grabs are the incorrect size for proper comparison.

720x480 is much smaller size than 1920x1080, comparing pic at different sizes do no good (playing dyrl on an iphone vs. 60" hdtv will not work)

enlarging 480 content beyond it's native resolution will make picture sharper/blurrier depending on the upscale. likewise, downscaling any picture from it's native resolution will certainly make it look sharper. (4k video playing on 1080p screen will still look sharp) (1080p video playing on a 4k screen may or may not depending on the hardware/software)

and it still looks sharper on the bottom screengrab posted which is the claim all along. not that the scene or film itself is perfect, but if a 1080 upscale (see dyrl flashback) can produce a consistent picture, then it's no excuse for a blu ray.

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From Flashback 2012 BD:

post-128-0-15962700-1446760009_thumb.png

The board resizes the images to 1200px wide, but we can still compare the images somewhat.

A 800x600 crop from DYRL blu-ray (1:1 if you click on the actual image):

post-128-0-79876100-1446760036_thumb.png

Cropped from Flashback 2012 blu-ray (not identical because it is a little more zoomed in):

post-128-0-13239700-1446760049_thumb.png

I see the same blurness in the FB2012 image, just that it is not as obvious.

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If that'a the case, then the only reason left would be lowering the theatrevscreening age, as home releases still don't seem to have an issue showing head gore. Broadcast anime has taken to shadow blurring it in recent seasons though, Jojo stands out (pun) as having done this.

Darn it, I wish still had my ancient off-air VHS recording of DYRL. The first time I saw DYRL was such a copy and I'm almost sure the head gore was in the TV broadcast as well.

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Darn it, I wish still had my ancient off-air VHS recording of DYRL. The first time I saw DYRL was such a copy and I'm almost sure the head gore was in the TV broadcast as well.

It's still in both of the previous DVD releases.

We can hope it's been restored in the upcoming release but since the original edits were not the result of external pressure from ratings boards or any other outside forces to begin with....well, we can only hope, I guess.

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Guest davidwhangchoi

From Flashback 2012 BD:

I see the same blurness in the FB2012 image, just that it is not as obvious.

thanks for the attempts, yep, it's sharper on the flashback upscale.

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Darn it, I wish still had my ancient off-air VHS recording of DYRL. The first time I saw DYRL was such a copy and I'm almost sure the head gore was in the TV broadcast as well.

Of course it was, the BD is the only time it has been edited. I've seen the movie on TV in Japan and in Europe, and it has always been intact.

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