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Gakken85

Game of Thrones Theory Discussion. Books. Show. Spoilers.

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This thread is for people to discuss Game of Thrones OPENLY and actually enjoy themselves. This is to celebrate the works of GRRM and the creation of the Game of Thrones TV show that came from those works.

The show is 98.9% caught up to the books, and the latest book might not be out for another 6 months or so. Season 5 is also over so if you haven't seen it - don't post here if you wish to stay spoiler free. As many fans are TV show only and will never read the massive book series, it's always helpful for them to get background information when they request it, and this is a place to do it.

Scope:

  • Feel free to discuss the books. All books related to A Song of Ice and Fire.
  • The show. All 5 seasons.
  • What the show has left out and changed from the books. GRRM vs the Double D's.
  • Tinfoil theories and SPOILERS.
  • Speculation of the ending.
This thread is for open discussion, so if you come here you have already seen all the episodes and read all the books, or don't care about spoilers. No spoiler tags needed.

If you don't want to be spoiled - don't post here or read this thread.

It's really just that simple.

Now that that is out of the way - if you want to catch up on the theories this is an excellent place to start:

https://www.youtube.com/user/JaiWbio

ALT SHIFT X on youtube compiles most of the major book/show theories into very helpful and visual videos.

Here is a cool article about enjoying spoilers:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/14/game-of-thrones-spoilers-why-they-re-a-good-thing.html

The researchers had a few ideas about why being spoiled might counterintuitively make stories more enjoyable. One possibility is that readers can pay more attention to the aesthetic qualities of the work if they’re less busy trying to figure out what happens.

Another possibility is that a story might flow more smoothly if we have the endpoint in mind—we’re able to focus on the important details and prune the extraneous ones, and the significance of certain plot points become clear and foreshadowing is more apparent. We become able to experience the same sorts of things we enjoy on a reread or second viewing, but the first time around.

While spoilers might come at the expense of some tension and uncertainty, there’s something pleasing about the experience of a story clicking and coming together just right. Cognitive scientists call such feelings of subjective ease “processing fluency.”

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So I've heard rumors that Kip Harrington is not going to be filming next season...maybe he filmed some limited scenes this past year for use in season 6. Jon better not be dead!! :D

Chris

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I think it was probably HBO pushing him to lie about it on his media tour to help promote the idea that he really is dead. They can't kill him, to bring him back, and then just announce he's still on the show.

Also, keep in mind they don't want to spoil the books assuming George wants to bring him back.If the book comes out this Christmas or Feb, that would give people time to find out what George is writing.

I wouldn't be at all amazed if Kit is spotted filming in Nov. or something, though they will probably try to keep it Hush Hush.

Honestly, nobody knows if he is dead, but I'd say it's a 75% chance that he ISN'T gone from the story. It just wouldn't make much sense from a narrative stance. The interesting point of discussion is.. how does he come back? Fire, Ice, or Qyburn?

They may also ignore the wall for most of the season, like they sorta ignored Bran this last season.

Edited by Gakken85

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The red witch conveniently showing up at Castle Black should give some idea of Jon Snow's upcoming "status".

I'm more interested in knowing the outcome of the Brienne/Stannis encounter......something tells me he was spared (for the moment)......if so, who/what could have stopped brienne from finishing the job?

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I have the feeling Stannis is still alive, but not for long.

There have been rumors that most of the things that happened to Stannis near the end of the season DO happen to him in the next book, but I'm sure it's much more well conceived and constructed. The books leave off right at the point of the battle of Winterfell without going quite as far as the show. The Double D's seemed to use the technique of building somebody up to just smash them down this season, so I was a little disappointed in his arch construction.

I think it's perfectly plausible that Brienne would NOT kill Stannis. She is always talking about being honorable, and it's not really honorable to stalk a wounded man in a battle and cut him down while he is wounded and defenseless. Pod could also get involved and convince her that he is valuable on some level. Her face definitely changed when he said "Do your duty." However it is interesting to note that Brienne swears her oath to Kat only if it didn't get in the way of her vengeance over Stannis. So she has a good reason on the other side to kill him regardless, and cover her ass to leave Sansa flapping in the wind.

However... what the hell would Stannis do if he survived? His family and army are gone. If anybody could find a reason to fight on after significant loss it's Stannis though. He could be driven by his own internal will to get revenge on the red witch, or find Sir Davos and try again? Sure why not. He could also potentially Knight Pod and Brienne, which would be semi-legit.

I also heard a fun theory that Stannis may take the black at Brienne's insistence. Stannis would be the best man for the job as Lord Commander, and he would preform well protecting the realm. The problem with that is, how long is the watch going to last with the white walkers coming down?

One thing we know is that nobody in GOT is dead unless it's shown or described in the show or the book. I'd say it's 50/50 for Stannis.

Who knows if Brienne and Pod find Sansa and Theon. They may all head to the wall and meet there. They made a point of having Ramsey tell Sansa that Her brother is now the Lord Commander, so that's her only safe haven. Stannis would actually tie all this together, as he knows where Jon is and would prompt them to go to the wall again.

Edited by Gakken85

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Yeah, I was thinking Stannis may take the black as well. As for why would Brienne spare him, I was thinking maybe because he could confirm his crime against Renly? Since most think Brienne is crazy/incompetent or both when she described how Renly died.

Kit, also, may not be lying per-se'. Jon IS very likely dead just not perminantly...that way his vows to the watch could be complete, thus preserving his Stark-side Honor and then embrace his hopeful Tararyan side! :D

Chris

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So the question I have for everyone is who do you think the "valonqar" of Maggy the frog's prophecy to Cersei is?

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Valonqar is old High Valaryan for "younger brother" which leaves quite a few candidates.

Tyrion? The one that Cersei assumes is who the prophecy speaks of? It seems a little too easy for a series containing so many twists that it would be him.

Jaime? Former lover now seeking redemption? Its possible and poetic if he ends up being the one to do her in. Especially now since he's apparently turned his back on her and is seeking to regain his lost honor and pride. Yes I know Jaime and Cersei are twins, but the books make it clear she was born first with Jaime clinging to her leg.

Stannis? Ignoring the recent events of the show I still doubt it would be him. Sure he is Robert's younger borther, but it just doesn't seem right.

Sandor The Hound? For one thing I'm not even sure he's still alive, and secondly if he is according to the gravedigger theory he's rather laim and crippled not to mention taken to religious vows. I just really don't see how he has the reason, chance, or ability to carry it out.

Bran? This is a real twisted idea I came up with and could very well be something Martin would come up with. Given that he is learning new abilities from the three eyed crow like clarvoyance and limited control of the weirwood trees it would be demented if Cersei somehow ends up captured and finds herself hanged from weirwood tree.

Arya? We know she's in training to become a faceless one. Would it be possible she uses the face of one of the aformentioned little brothers to carry out her revenge? Given how this series has played out as much as I'd like to see this happen we all know nothing ever goes the way we want or expect.

One more thing, when I was rereading the book that contained the prophecy I realized something rather disturbing about Cersei that kind of blows a hole into Mr March's theory that Cersei is just misunderstood and victim of her circumstances that should be pitied and not reviled.

SHE FREAKING KILLED THE MAID SHE WENT TO SEE MAGGY THE FROG WITH!!! All because the poor girl wanted to know if she would ever marry Jaime thus making Cersei jealous. Maggy was being direct when she told the girl "death was near, can you feel her breath?"

That murder aside there was also that moment where she saw newborn Tyrion and tried to twist his dong off because she thought he was an ugly baby and liked hearing him cry. With a mother like that no wonder Joffery ended up sic twisted and sadistic.

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I think the Valonqar is the Hound.

He is the "little brother" of the Mountain. He is alive at the quiet isle and will be called by the sparrows to fight the Mountain in her trial.

He will win and Cersei will die.

Cleganebowl confirmed!

The only other person it could be is Tyrion, and that's a bit too on the nose for this show In my opinion, plus I think he'll be busy with Dany for awhile.

Cersei is mad. No two ways about it haha. A sociopath in the very least.

Also, you don't need to use Spoiler tags here. Spoiler tag free zone :D

Edited by Gakken85

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Nah, my money is on it being Jaime. He is TECHNICHALLY younger than Cersei as Renegade pointed out. At least that how I've always viewed the prophecy since I read it years ago. I was disappointed the show left that out in the flashback that started this season.

Chris

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I think there is a chance that Jamie will go nuts and turn on his family after everything that has happened.

His redemption arc has to go somewhere haha.

I mean, how is he going to react when he finds out Cersei boned Lansil? His one true love? The woman he lost his hand over and now lost their daughter for?

Edited by Gakken85

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Glad to see the GoT threads are back...even though book readers seem to be treated like Wildlings right now. :p

So, Euron Greyjoy's making an appearance in the next season? At this point, I thought they might have omitted the character from the show. I remember that he has a horn or something, basically a device used by the Targaeryens to control their dragons. It's probably only a matter of time before he meets Dany. And given his debonair description, it sounds like Daario might have some competition there.

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Renegadeleader1 - Don't forget that Tommen is also the younger brother...

Well that's certainly something. I would actually be pretty interested to see how that would play out. What would cause Tommen of all people to kill Cersei?

Anyways I have some questions for everyone...

Anybody know/remember what happened to Robb Stark's head after the Red Wedding? I'm wondering if there's more to Robert the Strong than just the mountain who walks. Imagine the reaction if his helmet gets knocked off and that face is revealed!

Anybody think a memember of House Reyne of Castamere might have survived Tywin's purge?

What do you guys make of the Howland Reed is High Sparrow theory? The Crannog men are said to favor trickery/deception in battle yet are fiercely loyal to their allies(House Stark, Northmen). Howland Reed is a personal friend to Ned Stark and yet through Ned's execution, the red wedding, and the sacking of Winterfell House Reed remains silent. The question is would a group of Northmen, followers of the old gods, and closely related to the green men really go so far as to infiltrate a rival religion to turn it against their enemies?

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Yeah looks like the Greyjoys are back in force this next season. Should be interesting.

I think the Prophecy also stated that all her children will die and Tom is the only one left. He's toast.

Also, Tyrion is probably going to make a Dragon saddle for Dany. Remember he engineered that thing for Bran as a gift?

Watch for it haha

I don't think Reed is the High Sparrow. It's interesting but doesn't make enough sense.

It's a cool idea that he's engineered all this as revenge for Ned, but physically they don't seem to match up.

ALT SHIFT X has a theory video on that as well.

Edited by Gakken85

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Well that's certainly something. I would actually be pretty interested to see how that would play out. What would cause Tommen of all people to kill Cersei?

When he figures out what his mother has been doing behind his back to get Margery in jail. Among other things that may very well start happening next season.

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Yeah I agree with him that it's a long shot...

Also, nobody in the casting info matches the description of Reed.

I do think the High Sparrow might be motivated to clear the way for Dany though... or have some higher purpose other than just justice.

It's hard to say.

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I don't buy Reed being the High Sparrow. I don't see Reed coming into play until things begin to solidify in the North, which may not be until "A Dream of Spring" (formerly titled "A Time for Wolves").

I'm not sure the High Sparrow will be around long enough to matter what his real name is. Cersei isn't going to take this humiliation sitting down.

As far as Tommen being the valonqar, Maggy's prophecy alludes to her having to bear witness to the deaths of her three children, and then the valonqar shall kill her. My favorite candidates are the Hound and Jaime (I'm leaning heavily toward Jaime).

For the record, I've never put much stock into the theory than Jon wargs into Ghost for an extended period of time. I don't think Melisandre will waste much time now that we know that things go badly for Stannis in the North. I also believe that this miracle of resurrection will come about in the same way it did for Thoros of Myr: crisis of faith leads to a great show of power on the part of the Lord of Light; faith is renewed.

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Other things to remember: Robb likely legitimized Jon Snow and named him heir in front of the Northern Lords before the Red Wedding. Also, Ned Stark's remains are likely in the hands of Howland Reed, as they never made it North past Moat Cailin before the Ironborn took it.

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I can't remember, did Robb ever actually legitimize Jon? I just remember him telling Catlyn he wanted to when they learned of Bran and Rickons "deaths" and Catlyn arguing against it due to her hatred for Jon and therefore all Bastards.

Chris

Edited by Dobber

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I can't remember, did Robb ever actually legitimize Jon? I just remember him telling Catlyn he wanted to when they learned of Bran and Rickons "deaths" and Catlyn arguing against it due to her hatred for Jon and therefore all Bastards.

Chris

We assume he does, because he calls his bannermen to a meeting to make it official. However, the chapter ends there.

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I don't buy Reed being the High Sparrow. I don't see Reed coming into play until things begin to solidify in the North, which may not be until "A Dream of Spring" (formerly titled "A Time for Wolves").

I'm not sure the High Sparrow will be around long enough to matter what his real name is. Cersei isn't going to take this humiliation sitting down.

As far as Tommen being the valonqar, Maggy's prophecy alludes to her having to bear witness to the deaths of her three children, and then the valonqar shall kill her. My favorite candidates are the Hound and Jaime (I'm leaning heavily toward Jaime).

For the record, I've never put much stock into the theory than Jon wargs into Ghost for an extended period of time. I don't think Melisandre will waste much time now that we know that things go badly for Stannis in the North. I also believe that this miracle of resurrection will come about in the same way it did for Thoros of Myr: crisis of faith leads to a great show of power on the part of the Lord of Light; faith is renewed.

Agree on the Tom thing. He's toast.

I think Jamie has two paths. 1. He turns full Lannister after the death of his daughter and the events in kings landing, he goes all out trying to restore the family and get revenge. 2. He betrays his family and seeks to destroy it. It would further the idea that he is going to end Cersei, and stick with his "king slayer" title of a betrayer.

I think either path is likely. The Double D's have created such a mess with the Dorn story line that it's hard to tell. What is Dr. Bashir's motive here? What about the Prince in Jamie's custody? Lots of unanswered questions.

I think Warging would work for a short period of time, so that Mel can find his body, but if you stay in for a long period of time it would make you nuts. Either way it depends on how the show deals with his body in the short term. (And I heard this idea on the spoiler cast by bald move) if they put off showing his body burn in the first 2 episodes that means he's coming back somehow.

If they burn him right away then he probably is truly dead....which is unlikely, but we'll know.

I think Jon wargs in the book - he Wargs in the very first intro or whatever, and is said to have a strong power - but the show hasn't confirmed it. There is the theory that Bran didn't get his power until he was shocked into it by losing his legs, and Jon's near death would fit that check mark. However, I really don't think there was a reason to show Ghost saving Sam, without it being Jon who was driving. He knows it's his ace in the hole in a place where nobody trusts him. It's gotta play some role in his resurrection I think.

Unless the Walkers do it. Then all bets are off.

Now here is something interesting that a stupid Meme made me think about....

What if... Arya uses her faceless powers to impersonate somebody important for a long period of time, Like Jon. What if she finds out about all this crap and takes his place, only to reek havoc on the north posing as her brother? It's a long shot, but a very cool possibility. I'd never considered her pretending to be somebody important until recently. I guess because she's been out of the main story so long.

In the show, if Stannis is still alive - he could legitimize Jon when he goes to the Wall with Brienne. Another reason for him to survive.

Edited by Gakken85

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> What is Dr. Bashir's motive here? What about the Prince in Jamie's custody?

Dr Bashir had nothing to do with the killing, if/when he finds out the lady that did do it is either toast or will have to kill Dr. Bashir too.

No idea what the fate of the prince will be.

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Idk, it all goes down differently in the books. I don't see Dr. Bashir being that nice and easy going. He has to have something cooking.

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Prince Doran has definitely not been playing nice in the books, no matter what he says publicly.

"Vengeance. Justice. Fire and blood."

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I can't remember, did Robb ever actually legitimize Jon? I just remember him telling Catlyn he wanted to when they learned of Bran and Rickons "deaths" and Catlyn arguing against it due to her hatred for Jon and therefore all Bastards.

Chris

Catelyn argued against every decision Robb made, and her advice indirectly did more damage to his cause in the wake of Ned's death than any Lannister could have. She often warned him not to appear indecisive lest he lose his authority with his lords, and yet she completely undermined his authority by releasing Jaime for completely selfish reasons. This and his unwillingness to punish her for her actions drove a wedge between him and one of his most loyal bannermen the Karstarks resulting in their lord's execution and their house abandoning him.

It still boggles my mind she trusted the Frey's when everyone else under Robb knew it was a trap.

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We assume he does, because he calls his bannermen to a meeting to make it official. However, the chapter ends there.

The problem is, everyone that may have known that he Legitimized Jon is most likely dead, so it probably doesn't matter one way or the other.

Chris

Edited by Dobber

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The problem is, everyone that may have known that he Legitimized Jon is most likely dead, so it probably doesn't matter one way or the other.

Chris

No true. There's a breakdown of this somewhere, but I'd have to look it up. Some made it back North, some are still imprisoned (like the Umbers), and yes, some died at the wedding. I'd wouldn't be surprised if the document declaring this was in the hands of one Howland Reed of Greywater Watch.

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Howland Reed, the keeper of Stark secrets! If that's the case that man know's more about Jon Snow than anyone else. Ha ha

Chris

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Howland Reed, the keeper of Stark secrets! If that's the case that man know's more about Jon Snow than anyone else. Ha ha

Chris

Of course, we need to get Azor Ahai back on his feet, first.

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I'm assuming that's why Dayne is in the show next season.

They will show Ned's dream and the tower fight to confirm R+L = J

From the show it seems Little finger knew what was up with Jon, as did Stannis (from the red witch?) when he said "That was not Ned Stark's way."

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I'm assuming that's why Dayne is in the show next season.

They will show Ned's dream and the tower fight to confirm R+L = J

From the show it seems Little finger knew what was up with Jon, as did Stannis (from the red witch?) when he said "That was not Ned Stark's way."

I doubt Littlefinger knows. He'd have used that information already. Stannis is even more doubtful, but he has respect for Ned's character.

I agree that the Sword of the Morning will appear in a flashback next season. Will it be like Cersei's in season 5, or will it be through Bran's greensight?

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