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33 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Man, no fanbase deserves to be treated like the Robotechies are.  I mean, yeah, "fool me once, shame on you" and all that, but the conga line of ineptitude, disdain, and active malice being thrown at them from all sides... they deserve better.

 

I wish more people were like you. :)

 

I also wish my franchise was treated better by its owners and licensees.

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1 hour ago, jenius said:

Suing palladium seems like a joke. I'm sure Kickstarter makes it clear that things can go wrong and things do go wrong when companies are trying something new. Now palladium is like three guys in a garage without their biggest license... A backer wanting to sue them is just a person who was ill prepared to be on Kickstarter or is eager to kick a corpse.

I agree.  In the first couple of pages the thread lot of people were casually pledging money for this project treating it more like a pre-order program even before the stretch goal figures started showing up and things got ridiculous.

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11 hours ago, jenius said:

Suing palladium seems like a joke. I'm sure Kickstarter makes it clear that things can go wrong and things do go wrong when companies are trying something new. Now palladium is like three guys in a garage without their biggest license... A backer wanting to sue them is just a person who was ill prepared to be on Kickstarter or is eager to kick a corpse.

Speaking as someone who's been dragged into a crapload of Facebook discussions about legal action against Palladium... I can attest that 90, maybe 95% of them are kick-the-corpse-ers.

There are some who genuinely want a full refund from Palladium and are willing to go to court to get it, precisely because Palladium actually promised (in writing) cash refunds if they were unable to give backers their Wave 2 rewards.

 

 

11 hours ago, JB0 said:

Man, no fanbase deserves to be treated like the Robotechies are.  I mean, yeah, "fool me once, shame on you" and all that, but the conga line of ineptitude, disdain, and active malice being thrown at them from all sides... they deserve better.

What's that old saying about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result being the definition of insanity?

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19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

What's that old saying about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result being the definition of insanity?

Okay, fine. It is EVEN WORSE because HG is picking on the mentally-handicapped.  Still, though. No fanbase deserves this kind of treatment.

 

And it is a treatment that has destroyed most of the Robotech fanbase already. People either moved to 100% Real Macross: Accept no substitutes(like myself), or just decided this anime crap is a bang full of dog turds and gave up on everything.  What's left, as far as willing to pay money, is either people that weren't paying attention the last dozen times, or the mentally ill.

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41 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Okay, fine. It is EVEN WORSE because HG is picking on the mentally-handicapped.  Still, though. No fanbase deserves this kind of treatment.

 

And it is a treatment that has destroyed most of the Robotech fanbase already. People either moved to 100% Real Macross: Accept no substitutes(like myself), or just decided this anime crap is a bang full of dog turds and gave up on everything.  What's left, as far as willing to pay money, is either people that weren't paying attention the last dozen times, or the mentally ill.

Granted, on more than one occasion I've compared Harmony Gold's treatment of Robotech fans to an abusive relationship... but in this unusual case, Harmony Gold isn't to blame as they had no involvement in the day-to-day business of the failed Kickstarter campaign.  I'd argue this is actually a far bigger betrayal than anything the Robotech fandom has had to cope with in the past because it's coming from the one Robotech licensee that, deadline-scheduling problems aside, had consistently, genuinely tried to bring a quality product to the fans. 

This is the kind of terrible, excessively melodramatic, over-the-top betrayal you'd expect to come from the pen of George Lucas c.2005.  The only thing missing from Harmony Gold's decision to pull the license and put an end to Palladium Books's sham operation was a declaration that they had the high ground, and a crippled Palladium clawing at the ground and shrieking "I HATE YOU!".

Even more unusually, Harmony Gold is almost cast in the role of the good guy putting a stop to the abusive, deceptive practices of a wayward licensee.  You can almost hear the HG staff over-dramatically telling Kevin Siembieda "It's over Kevin, I have the high ground!".

 

One has to wonder where they'll go from here, since a number of backers have kept copies of e-mails and other correspondence in which Palladium Books either promised the backers cash refunds in the event Wave 2 turned out to be a no-go or cases where Kevin told the same lies he'd been telling to backers for ~3 years to the Michigan attorney general's office...

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19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You can almost hear the HG staff over-dramatically telling Kevin Siembieda "It's over Kevin, I have the high ground!".

..until 2021 :D 

Then they will join together in the same ditch :p 

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There are some who genuinely want a full refund from Palladium and are willing to go to court to get it, precisely because Palladium actually promised (in writing) cash refunds if they were unable to give backers their Wave 2 rewards.

Well, that changes the dynamic a bit...

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There are some who genuinely want a full refund from Palladium and are willing to go to court to get it, precisely because Palladium actually promised (in writing) cash refunds if they were unable to give backers their Wave 2 rewards.

Palladium admitted that they lost/spent all of the pledge money and the project was unrecoverable almost three years ago.  Those people should have acted sooner.

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1 hour ago, Einherjar said:

Palladium admitted that they lost/spent all of the pledge money and the project was unrecoverable almost three years ago.  Those people should have acted sooner.

That's the problem... they couldn't have acted sooner, because for the entire time Palladium Books was lying through its teeth about the state of the Kickstarter to the backers, the Michigan AG's office, and the BBB, they were also denying any and all requests for refunds from backers upset with the delays.  The Kickstarter Terms of Use only enable them to go demand the refunds Palladium had promised them would be available in the event Wave 2 became undeliverable after the project is officially declared a failure.

EDIT: Under the Kickstarter TOS, they would've needed to have some kind of proof that Palladium Books was not acting in good faith... something which did not materialize until this recent admission by Palladium that the project ran out of money three years ago and that every status update since had been a lie.

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16 hours ago, JB0 said:

Man, no fanbase deserves to be treated like the Robotechies are.  I mean, yeah, "fool me once, shame on you" and all that, but the conga line of ineptitude, disdain, and active malice being thrown at them from all sides... they deserve better.

 

I disagree, they are giving money to HG. They won't get any sympathy from me.

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3 hours ago, TehPW said:

Is it too late to report Palladium Books mess to the Better Business Bureau?

Nope. It's never late.

Reading back to 2015's posts in this very thread, we knew they blew $1.5 million just making Wave 1 figures. So it's not like people didn't know.

I'm going to agree and say it's probably not worth it to file a lawsuit. The attorney fees alone will outweigh any reward. It doesn't mean they can't try but they will not get that much after the the lawyers are done.

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Even if it wouldn't actually be profitable for the swindled backers, I have to wonder if bringing the lawsuit would benefit the kickstarter market in general, and make people more directly aware of the risks involved.  I don't know if the audience for this particular failure is big enough to make any headlines, but it would be a nice cautionary tale to people fond of backing these kinds of projects.

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3 hours ago, Einherjar said:

A tech company actually trying to fix serious flaws in how it operates in 2018?  Also, people heavily invested in nerd culture on the Internet actually growing up in 2018?  That’s a stretch.

Kickstarter's been actively avoiding any responsibility for years now. They firmly insist they're just a middleman and all issues should be settled between the endpoints. Even in cases of blatant fraud, they refuse to do anything because they're just a middleman.

 

Only fraudulent kickstarter I've been involved with, they disappeared as soon as the money was transferred. I can't really be too mad, though. Once I realized they named themselves after a group of Kamen Rider villains, I got my ten bucks worth of laughter.

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7 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Even if it wouldn't actually be profitable for the swindled backers, I have to wonder if bringing the lawsuit would benefit the kickstarter market in general, and make people more directly aware of the risks involved.  I don't know if the audience for this particular failure is big enough to make any headlines, but it would be a nice cautionary tale to people fond of backing these kinds of projects.

If people have not figured out the risks involved in backing a kickstarter by now they never will.  I'm still amazed at the number of people that consider it exactly the same as pre-ordering.

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On 3/2/2018 at 1:04 AM, azrael said:

Reading back to 2015's posts in this very thread, we knew they blew $1.5 million just making Wave 1 figures. So it's not like people didn't know.

People suspected they'd blown through the entire development budget... nobody could prove that the money was gone until Palladium finally admitted it the other day.  The reason people are very, VERY angry about this has less to do with the Kickstarter campaign failing than the fact that Kevin Siembieda and his staff lied to them about it for three solid years.

(There's also the question of whether Kickstarter funds were used to hire Scott Gibbons to do the lying once Kevin's credibility deteriorated completely.)

 

Quote

I'm going to agree and say it's probably not worth it to file a lawsuit. The attorney fees alone will outweigh any reward. It doesn't mean they can't try but they will not get that much after the the lawyers are done.

You never know.  The subject of crowdfunding, and e-commerce in general, is one where you have a LOT of lawyers looking to make a name for themselves by establishing precedents.  I wouldn't be surprised if they found a lawyer willing to work pro bono on the case for the exposure a ruling on a controversial topic like crowdfunding would bring.  That said, there is also a GoFundMe to finance a lawsuit against Palladium being run by a Facebook group for disgruntled backers which is getting a LOT of attention now that they've suddenly been proven right-all-along.

For most of the angry backers I've spoken to or sat in on conversations with, pursuing legal action against Palladium Books is less about getting their pound of flesh and more about punishing Kevin Siembieda and his staff for three years of fraudulent misrepresentation.  Many of them are furious with Kevin's conduct to the point that they're quite willing to launch litigation against him even if it ultimately nets them little or no reward, simply to watch Palladium burn.

 

 

On 3/2/2018 at 1:37 AM, Chronocidal said:

Even if it wouldn't actually be profitable for the swindled backers, I have to wonder if bringing the lawsuit would benefit the kickstarter market in general, and make people more directly aware of the risks involved.  I don't know if the audience for this particular failure is big enough to make any headlines, but it would be a nice cautionary tale to people fond of backing these kinds of projects.

That probably isn't something the backers are thinking of, but that's the kind of thing that'd motivate lawyers to take the case pro bono in hopes of achieving prestige setting important precedent, or the Michigan attorney general's office (for similar reasons).

Since a number of backers have copies of letters Kevin sent to the Michigan AG's office that contain things now proven to be lies, I suspect punitive action from the AG will occur... if only halfheartedly.

 

 

On 3/2/2018 at 6:12 AM, JB0 said:

Kickstarter's been actively avoiding any responsibility for years now. They firmly insist they're just a middleman and all issues should be settled between the endpoints. Even in cases of blatant fraud, they refuse to do anything because they're just a middleman.

Yep... and the backers know it.  I've seen no evidence of anyone wanting to sue Kickstarter for the misconduct of Palladium.  They know, like Kevin himself assured the Michigan AG's office, that PB isn't a fly-by-night startup operating out of a PO box... they're an established company with a well-known brick-and-mortar location in Westland.  They can, and intend to, go right to the source and sue Palladium.

 

On 3/2/2018 at 9:16 AM, Dynaman said:

If people have not figured out the risks involved in backing a kickstarter by now they never will.  I'm still amazed at the number of people that consider it exactly the same as pre-ordering.

They're well-acquainted with the risks of backing a Kickstarter.

Like I've said, what's got them up in arms isn't so much that it failed... but that, between Kevin and Scott, there's 3+ years of fraudulent misrepresentation about the Kickstarter finances and project's progress, that Palladium reneged on its promise of refunds if the project should fail, and that Kevin had the gall to insist people willing to take Wave 1 overstock (made with misappropriated funds) in compensation for unproduced Wave 2 goods pay for shipping and handling on goods they'd already paid those on once already.

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3 hours ago, Dynaman said:

If people have not figured out the risks involved in backing a kickstarter by now they never will.  I'm still amazed at the number of people that consider it exactly the same as pre-ordering.

I kind of had this same realization right after what I typed, so fair enough. :lol: 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That probably isn't something the backers are thinking of, but that's the kind of thing that'd motivate lawyers to take the case pro bono in hopes of achieving prestige setting important precedent, or the Michigan attorney general's office (for similar reasons).

Since a number of backers have copies of letters Kevin sent to the Michigan AG's office that contain things now proven to be lies, I suspect punitive action from the AG will occur... if only halfheartedly.

I kind of want to say that's more what I would hope for, not necessarily that a lawyer would take up the case for free, but that some kind of clear legal precedent is set for failed Kickstarters, and whether backers are legally owed restitution when they blow up.  I think for the most part, yeah, people need to get their head on straight that it's an investment, and not a pre-order for a guaranteed item.

In this particular case though, Palladium pretty much was shooting themselves repeatedly in the foot with every lie they told, and then they blew the leg clean off by sending all those emails guaranteeing refunds if they couldn't deliver.  That's entirely on them.  They probably could have gotten off scott-free by claiming it was an investment, if they hadn't sent out all those guarantees of a product delivery.

 

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1 hour ago, Chronocidal said:

They probably could have gotten off scott-free by claiming it was an investment, if they hadn't sent out all those guarantees of a product delivery.

Unlikely, given that Palladium Books hasn't exactly been acting in good faith for most of the project lifespan.

They'd still be under fire even if they'd come clean about the program budget being depleted three years ago when it first happened, because a big part of why it happened was that Kevin took a fair sized chunk of the development budget and spent it on inventory meant for retail sale.  They'd be flaying him for that until the cows came home, but three years of lying about it on an official basis and having promised cash refunds only to renege on the promise only made them madder and it'll make it easier to nail Palladium to the wall in court.

 

EDIT: There's also the awkward and still-unanswered question of how a game project that didn't have any advertising spent $31,700 on advertising.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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Any thing they spent on the Kickstarter campaign, any shows they attended and related expenses, they could classify marketing in lots of ways. 

Who thinks Palladium has any value? I don't get the point here. That worthless company with an awful reputation should be punished! Are people hoping to get the value from the molds of those awful miniatures?

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2 hours ago, jenius said:

Any thing they spent on the Kickstarter campaign, any shows they attended and related expenses, they could classify marketing in lots of ways. 

Who thinks Palladium has any value? I don't get the point here. That worthless company with an awful reputation should be punished! Are people hoping to get the value from the molds of those awful miniatures?

I read through the comments out of curiosity, there's actually a fair bit of demand for them to release the CAD files for the unreleased miniatures, and at least let people produce them themselves.  Probably hopeless, and I'm sure they could easily be made better by freelance modelers, but that would at least look like they had something of relative value to give the backers... and that no one would have to pay shipping for. :p 

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8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

 

They're well-acquainted with the risks of backing a Kickstarter.

 

We must be talking to different kickstarter backers.  A large number of the ones I talk to seem to think they will get their product guaranteed.  

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11 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

We must be talking to different kickstarter backers.  A large number of the ones I talk to seem to think they will get their product guaranteed.  

Same. The backers of this particular Kickstarter might know what they're doing, but so many of the others I've seen - including the failed one I was a part of - complain about not getting the game/product they preordered, and I have to fight to keep from pulling my hair out.

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4 hours ago, jenius said:

Any thing they spent on the Kickstarter campaign, any shows they attended and related expenses, they could classify marketing in lots of ways. 

Not marketing, their very crude breakdown of spending flags the expense as "advertising" costs. 

They didn't do any advertising for the game that anyone's seen.

 

Quote

Who thinks Palladium has any value?

RIFTS is still a fairly well-regarded game in the industry despite Palladium's system being outdated and a bit clunky.  Pinnacle Entertainment's got their project of converting RIFTS to their own more streamlined Savage Worlds system.

Robotech fans hold - or at least, used to hold - Palladium Books in high regard both for Robotech's licensed RPG being the closest the franchise has ever come to an official guidebook with tech spec and character bio information, and for their brief role in Robotech home video distribution.

Also noteworthy is the fact that most fanmade Macross RPG resources use Palladium's Megaversal system, using their Robotech or Macross II RPGs as a starting point.  sketchley's RPG stats stuff from Macross RPG Galaxies is all Palladium-based, for instance.  I actually got my start translating Japanese Macross publications in an effort to fix the sh*t-awful job Palladium did with the setting material and stats in the Macross II RPG.

 

Quote

I don't get the point here. That worthless company with an awful reputation should be punished!

The people who backed this Kickstarter back in 2013 were people who didn't think Palladium was a worthless company, and some would probably have debated the "awful reputation" part too.

These were people who, by in large, supported Palladium and actually wanted the game to take off and become a success.  Overnight, the project's status changed from "ready to start manufacturing Wave 2, getting quotes for production costs" to "lol jk we haven't done sh*t in three years and the money's gone".  It's understandable they'd want to see Palladium punished for a dick move of that magnitude.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

We must be talking to different kickstarter backers.  A large number of the ones I talk to seem to think they will get their product guaranteed.  

I have a sneaking suspicion a fair amount of that is less a belief that delivery was guaranteed from the outset and more that the last few official status reports before Kevin dropped this bombshell in the Kickstarter Updates page all said that they were in the final phases of preparation and getting the Wave 2 casting work quoted by prospective manufacturers.

It was a pretty swift reversal from "it's practically a done deal" to "never happening and never was".

I can't speak to what the average Kickstarter backer is like, since I've never backed one that failed.

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I'm kinda regret that the Robotech Academy failed the funding back then... imagine all the trouble they can have now if they failed that too.

 

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I'm talking to a friend on FB about the new BattleTech game (the one that had been hit by HG's lawsuit a while back), and writing about it really put into stark relief just how little HG have done with Robotech since the 80s. Macross and BattleTech both have managed to move on and evolve themselves over the years despite dealing with HG's legal shenanigans; meanwhile Robotech just languishes, having made no substantial moves in 35 years to take the franchise beyond the original chimera show, or really even just the SDFM portion of the show. All it does is subsist on the goodwill of an aging and dwindling fan base.

At this point, considering how much they seem to want to divest themselves of the Macross baggage, I don't understand why HG don't just wipe the entire franchise clean and start from scratch.

...anyway. That has only the most tangential relation to this, but just... wow.

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4 hours ago, jenius said:

Any thing they spent on the Kickstarter campaign, any shows they attended and related expenses, they could classify marketing in lots of ways. 

Who thinks Palladium has any value? I don't get the point here. That worthless company with an awful reputation should be punished! Are people hoping to get the value from the molds of those awful miniatures?

I don't have any real insight into this situation but I would guess they want Palladium to answer for what they did in some way. Not necessarily monetary but something on record at least.

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Also noteworthy is the fact that most fanmade Macross RPG resources use Palladium's Megaversal system, using their Robotech or Macross II RPGs as a starting point.  sketchley's RPG stats stuff from Macross RPG Galaxies is all Palladium-based, for instance.  I actually got my start translating Japanese Macross publications in an effort to fix the sh*t-awful job Palladium did with the setting material and stats in the Macross II RPG.

Thanks for the shoutout.

Truth be told, I've been using a homebrew (housemods, whatever) version of the rules for about two decades now (has it been that long? :unsure: ).  Anyhow, I'm basing it in the Palladium system from a combination of that being the main one that everyone appears to be using, and the devil you know.

 

That said (and this isn't directed at anyone in particular), I'm surprised at the anger coming from the backers.  All I can say to potential investors (for future projects): do your research.  If I've known about Palladium Book's (the company, not any individual per se) inability to meet deadlines and inability to keep all marketing promises in the early '90's, how can it be a surprise in the late 2010's?

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1 hour ago, sketchley said:

Truth be told, I've been using a homebrew (housemods, whatever) version of the rules for about two decades now (has it been that long? :unsure: ).

Yep, I know... it's been about fifteen years for me via their Macross II game and my insane quest to fix it, long enough to know full well that the only people who play a Palladium game rules-as-written are the ones who've never played using their system before.  The more experience you have as a GM, the more (or more far reaching) your house rules to streamline things are.

 

Quote

  Anyhow, I'm basing it in the Palladium system from a combination of that being the main one that everyone appears to be using, and the devil you know.

Helped immensely by the fact that Palladium conveniently, if inaccurately, statted a bunch of Macross mecha already.  That's why so many use their books as a starting point, and why almost every online reference stats in Palladium's system.  It's become the common denominator for Macross RPGs.  It's a long way from great, but it's the only one with Macross content baked in.

(Unless you count the Mekton stats that occasionally showed up for Macross mecha in periodicals like Mangazine.)

 

Quote

That said (and this isn't directed at anyone in particular), I'm surprised at the anger coming from the backers.  All I can say to potential investors (for future projects): do your research.  If I've known about Palladium Book's (the company, not any individual per se) inability to meet deadlines and inability to keep all marketing promises in the early '90's, how can it be a surprise in the late 2010's?

A lot of them that I know and have spoken to at considerable length on Palladium's forums and elsewhere went into it knowing full bloody well what Palladium is like when it comes to deadlines and Kevin's bad habit of promising way more than he can deliver.  In many cases, they were resigned to it being late because Kevin always delivers late... but he usually does deliver in the end, barring a few noteworthy occasions where projects ended up shelved indefinitely or a finished manuscript was left unusable after a falling out with the writer (as in the case of Jason Marker's departure).

For the most part, the people who backed this were the Palladium faithful.  The folks who, despite everything, still supported Kevin and the company.  To some of them, that Kevin lied to them for years about the state of the project while they were investing their time and energy into trying to build the promotional infrastructure to help the game take off was almost a personal betrayal.  I've got a few friends among that number, and most of them are not so much angry as disgusted.  Others, who were harassed by the volunteer mods on Palladium's website are indulging in a bit of... what's that long german word... Schadenfreude(?) watching the fans who'd been White Knight-ing for Kevin seethe in barely suppressed outrage.

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4 hours ago, Gerli said:

I'm kinda regret that the Robotech Academy failed the funding back then... imagine all the trouble they can have now if they failed that too.

 

Just be thankful that besides some bruised egos and little collateral damage the only people that really got screwed from that situation are those who actually  deserved it.  This on the other hand got unnecessarily messy with mistakes by both Palladium and backers over the years that it's hard for me to sympathize with anyone.

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22 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You never know.  The subject of crowdfunding, and e-commerce in general, is one where you have a LOT of lawyers looking to make a name for themselves by establishing precedents.  I wouldn't be surprised if they found a lawyer willing to work pro bono on the case for the exposure a ruling on a controversial topic like crowdfunding would bring.  That said, there is also a GoFundMe to finance a lawsuit against Palladium being run by a Facebook group for disgruntled backers which is getting a LOT of attention now that they've suddenly been proven right-all-along.

I've worked on several pro bono cases and I'd be shocked if they found anyone willing to take on this case pro bono. This case simply doesn't meet any of the criteria used to justify pro bono work. Their best chance at anything lies with success of the GoFundMe. I'm curious to see if they're willing to put their money where their mouth is.

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8 hours ago, TheLoneWolf said:

I've worked on several pro bono cases and I'd be shocked if they found anyone willing to take on this case pro bono. This case simply doesn't meet any of the criteria used to justify pro bono work. Their best chance at anything lies with success of the GoFundMe. I'm curious to see if they're willing to put their money where their mouth is.

What is the criteria used to justify pro bono work?

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13 hours ago, Sandman said:

What is the criteria used to justify pro bono work?

I'm not a lawyer but I can come up with some ideas.

1 - Someone ripped off and made destitute.  If anyone was made destitute funding this it was due to them being a moron.

2 - Someone was physically injured in some way.  

3 - Excellent publicity possibility.  I don't see a chance of that here.

What we have here, boiled down to the basics, is investors in a small (almost negligible) investment losing their investment when things did not go well - and proving fraud rather then incompetence does not look likely .  The only real twist is that it is a kickstarter.

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20 hours ago, Sandman said:

What is the criteria used to justify pro bono work?

First, and foremost, is the client's financial status. If they're living below or near the line of poverty, an attorney will take that into consideration. Since the backers here had enough disposable cash to spend on a Kickstarter, they're unlikely to convince anyone that they need a handout. The next thing to consider is the nature of the grievance itself. Is the victim's physical safety or freedom at stake? Fanboys losing some disposable cash is a far cry from someone who's lost their entire life's savings. Third is the likelihood of success. No practice wants to spend their own money on a case unless there's a reasonable chance they'll win; resources spent on a questionable case are resources that could be spent on a legitimate, paying case. The long list of outrageous Kickstarter failures balanced against one or two legal victories isn't encouraging. As for publicity, believe it or not, I've yet to meet an attorney who does pro bono work for that reason. But if that was someone's motivation, they'd probably seek out children, minorities, and abused women. Middle class 30 to 40 year-old fanboys don't elicit much sympathy from anyone outside of their respective fandoms.

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6 hours ago, Dynaman said:

1 - Someone ripped off and made destitute.  If anyone was made destitute funding this it was due to them being a moron.

2 - Someone was physically injured in some way.  

3 - Excellent publicity possibility.  I don't see a chance of that here.

What we have here, boiled down to the basics, is investors in a small (almost negligible) investment losing their investment when things did not go well - and proving fraud rather then incompetence does not look likely .  The only real twist is that it is a kickstarter.

1) The only morons I see are the backers. Let’s face it, Kickstarter has made venture capitalism easy and made people sidestep the hard work of investing: research. 

2) Yeah, nothing on that front. 

3) There’s no publicity to be made here. This is just another half-assed KS project. 

I see nothing that substantial that would qualify as fraud. I see oceans of incompetence though. 

1 hour ago, TheLoneWolf said:

First, and foremost, ....

Yeah, not worth Pro Bono. 

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