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1 minute ago, beatsing said:

Someone who works in machining told me that metal parts go with metal parts, and plastic parts with plastic parts.  Since the part is a moving part that is expected to carry the weight of the hydraulics, the metal part above it, and is a transforming part where stress is expected, Sentinel should have used metal.  

Still unhappy about the part on my Yellow, as well as HLJ's ignoring the problem. 

Engineers have a bad habit of telling people the most ideal way of designing something with no consideration for cost and production/assembly processes (which at the end of the day ends up being cost too). Almost everything can be engineered better, so it's real easy to point fingers and say "That's not right, I would have done it like this". If they were presented with the same question with the addition of "It has to be done for $XX.XX" most of the time you will get an answer like "I don't know" or "That's impossible".

I'm an engineer. But, my company actually has to produce things that hit a target price point. I'm the lead designer and the bean counter. That means a lot of things I would like to do get left on the table. If I could go at some of my products "no holds barred" their price would at a minimum quadruple. That doesn't mean I can't put out a quality product. It's arguable that my stuff is the best in it's market. It just means that if I could unload both barrels the product would be out of this world trick.

I'm not suggesting that "hinge" shouldn't be better. "Not breaking" is the lowest bar in engineering. At a minimum that should be met. If it can't, either don't produce it, or raise the price to cover the cost of getting it right.

What's my point (I'm rambling)? I guess it's that a lot of engineers tend to think in a vacuum. They also like to show off a bit too (I'm as guilty of this as any engineer). When listening to an engineer it's best to take the 30,000ft perspective.

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I take your point @sqidd.  But I think he meant that breaking part should have been metal, since Sentinel thought it was important for both adjacent parts to be metal, that little extra cost could save a class action suit or more likely a bad reputation.  

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4 minutes ago, beatsing said:

I take your point @sqidd.  But I think he meant that breaking part should have been metal, since Sentinel thought it was important for both adjacent parts to be metal, that little extra cost could save a class action suit or more likely a bad reputation.  

I was just trying to provide perspective. Not make excuses for them. I agree it should be better.

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Yup, thanks for sharing your perspective as an engineer.  And the guy I mentioned is probably not an engineer, but he's handy with small repairs and toys.  You're right about costs and design, it's a major part of it.  

We as fans don't expect the whole toy to be made out of metal, or any metal.  But it shouldn't be broken out of the box, or with careful handling.  Especially when these things aren't cheap. 

I was so impressed with the easy preorder on this item, not like the preorder madness of DX chogokin.  The previous releases weren't perfect with minor issues but were pretty good for most to want to collect the entire set.  This breaking part is now putting a downer on collecting these toys.  

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2 hours ago, beatsing said:

Yup, thanks for sharing your perspective as an engineer.  And the guy I mentioned is probably not an engineer, but he's handy with small repairs and toys.  You're right about costs and design, it's a major part of it.  

We as fans don't expect the whole toy to be made out of metal, or any metal.  But it shouldn't be broken out of the box, or with careful handling.  Especially when these things aren't cheap. 

I was so impressed with the easy preorder on this item, not like the preorder madness of DX chogokin.  The previous releases weren't perfect with minor issues but were pretty good for most to want to collect the entire set.  This breaking part is now putting a downer on collecting these toys.  

A hobbyist engineer is even worse about the "I would have done it like this" thing.:rofl: Some of these guys are actually really good designers/engineers/fabricators. I'd argue a lot of them are better than "real" engineers. They can actually fix and make things. They do lack cost and production consideration perspective though. It's not a knock. Why would they have that perspective? They're usually making one of something in the most ideal way. Not trying to mass produce it at a targeted cost. A friend of mine that I work with on projects from time to time is a self taught engineer/fabricator/machinist and I would go as far as to say artist. He can pull of some genius/elegant solutions. But, his practical application skills aren't very strong. Most of the stuff he does he does one of. You have to design much differently when you are doing multiples or it has to be "serviced" frequently. A perfect example is about 10yrs ago we both had S197 Mustang (2005-2014) road course cars. His car was BEAUTIFUL. Hand made carbon fiber aerodynamic pieces, grills, coolers, etc, etc, etc, etc. It took about an hour and five hundred different tools to get the bumper cover/splitter off to access everything in there that you need to mess with from time to time. My car was set up so the entire front end of the car came off with 1/4 turn fasteners (no tools). It came off in one piece. One person could do it in about a minute. That's the execution difference between the "artist" designer and the "practical" designer. His stuff was pretty. My stuff was functional.

I agree 100% that these should not be breaking, let alone broken out of the box. That is a complete fail. I don't know what their margins look like. But I'd wager that they could have solved that problem for very little money per unit. They would buy themselves a lot of good will with that expenditure.

I agree, it's very disappointing to pay for a high end toy and it have such basic flaws. Most of the time I think to myself, "Charge me $10 more and get it RIGHT. I'll pay it". A $200 toy with problems is "junk". A $210 toy that is flawless is a masterpiece. 

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4 hours ago, sqidd said:

Engineers have a bad habit of telling people the most ideal way of designing something with no consideration for cost and production/assembly processes (which at the end of the day ends up being cost too). Almost everything can be engineered better, so it's real easy to point fingers and say "That's not right, I would have done it like this". If they were presented with the same question with the addition of "It has to be done for $XX.XX" most of the time you will get an answer like "I don't know" or "That's impossible".

I'm an engineer. But, my company actually has to produce things that hit a target price point. I'm the lead designer and the bean counter. That means a lot of things I would like to do get left on the table. If I could go at some of my products "no holds barred" their price would at a minimum quadruple. That doesn't mean I can't put out a quality product. It's arguable that my stuff is the best in it's market. It just means that if I could unload both barrels the product would be out of this world trick.

I'm not suggesting that "hinge" shouldn't be better. "Not breaking" is the lowest bar in engineering. At a minimum that should be met. If it can't, either don't produce it, or raise the price to cover the cost of getting it right.

What's my point (I'm rambling)? I guess it's that a lot of engineers tend to think in a vacuum. They also like to show off a bit too (I'm as guilty of this as any engineer). When listening to an engineer it's best to take the 30,000ft perspective.

During my engineering days, I sometimes did like materials with like, but sometimes dissimilar made more sense. if you knew that there was going to be wear, but one part was easier to replace when it wore out than the other, then you made that part out of the weaker material.

Not saying that's the case here, but that was the theory.

Of course, other times, it's just cost. You want to make parts plastic, but it financially makes sense to use off the shelf metal pins, so you use those with plastic surrounding them.

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14 hours ago, sqidd said:

A hobbyist engineer is even worse about the "I would have done it like this" thing.:rofl: Some of these guys are actually really good designers/engineers/fabricators. I'd argue a lot of them are better than "real" engineers. They can actually fix and make things. They do lack cost and production consideration perspective though. It's not a knock. Why would they have that perspective? They're usually making one of something in the most ideal way. Not trying to mass produce it at a targeted cost. A friend of mine that I work with on projects from time to time is a self taught engineer/fabricator/machinist and I would go as far as to say artist. He can pull of some genius/elegant solutions. But, his practical application skills aren't very strong. Most of the stuff he does he does one of. You have to design much differently when you are doing multiples or it has to be "serviced" frequently. A perfect example is about 10yrs ago we both had S197 Mustang (2005-2014) road course cars. His car was BEAUTIFUL. Hand made carbon fiber aerodynamic pieces, grills, coolers, etc, etc, etc, etc. It took about an hour and five hundred different tools to get the bumper cover/splitter off to access everything in there that you need to mess with from time to time. My car was set up so the entire front end of the car came off with 1/4 turn fasteners (no tools). It came off in one piece. One person could do it in about a minute. That's the execution difference between the "artist" designer and the "practical" designer. His stuff was pretty. My stuff was functional.

I agree 100% that these should not be breaking, let alone broken out of the box. That is a complete fail. I don't know what their margins look like. But I'd wager that they could have solved that problem for very little money per unit. They would buy themselves a lot of good will with that expenditure.

I agree, it's very disappointing to pay for a high end toy and it have such basic flaws. Most of the time I think to myself, "Charge me $10 more and get it RIGHT. I'll pay it". A $200 toy with problems is "junk". A $210 toy that is flawless is a masterpiece. 

Agreed.  Mass production requires functional designs.  On the whole, Riobot's designs are pretty good, but this mass failure is not acceptable for this price point, and I've been a fan of their work for years.   You're right on the money, and the DX VF-1 line looks to be that (almost) flawless toy in that $200 category.  My yellow went from $200 centerpiece, to $200 brick/statue out of the box.  If anyone asks me about Riobot, it'd be hard to recommend them at this point.  If Sentinel offered replacement parts or replacements like Figma did with Berserk, that would buy a lot of good will.

13 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

During my engineering days, I sometimes did like materials with like, but sometimes dissimilar made more sense. if you knew that there was going to be wear, but one part was easier to replace when it wore out than the other, then you made that part out of the weaker material.

Not saying that's the case here, but that was the theory.

Of course, other times, it's just cost. You want to make parts plastic, but it financially makes sense to use off the shelf metal pins, so you use those with plastic surrounding them.

If that's the case, then Sentinel should have included replacement parts in the box, or made the joints like the rest of the bike, with those ball joints that pop off and on.

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On 1/7/2020 at 12:38 AM, beatsing said:

If that's the case, then Sentinel should have included replacement parts in the box, or made the joints like the rest of the bike, with those ball joints that pop off and on.

I personally don't think that piece will just come off for an easy replacement. Those are held by metal pins. Which I think have to be heated with a soldering iron at a low temp to gradually soften the surrounding plastic then pulled away gently. I'm not sure, however, if it will go back to it's original state after the repair has been made. On the other note, that part of the design transformation is a swivel point and does not require a ball joint for many reasons. The only true issue is the plastic that was used, it might be cheaper plastic. I honestly don't think that is an ABS part since it should have a higher break tolerance. Lego bricks are made of ABS. Think about how much play-wear they go through, being connected, pulled apart, bit, stepped on, etc.

 

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In all likelihood, Sentinel bought a design from a design firm. The design firm calculated anticipated stress on each point and recommended materials. In this case, the part is breaking because it is subject to an unanticipated stress. There are no hidden agendas here or expectations of failure, it's just an unfortunate occurrence that hopefully can be remedied on future toys now that the failure is known.

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anymoon do you have any news about BBToys? Anyone have news? Thanks

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I canceled my order and a member on MW sold me thier second copy. 

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27 minutes ago, jorawar_b said:

I canceled my order and a member on MW sold me thier second copy. 

Glad that you received it, sir. Been wondering about that lately since you haven't replied my DM's. I will now post on the StraightShooter list. Thanks! ^_^ 

 

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So how widespread is the breakage issue? Is it one of those things that will happen no matter what or can it be avoided by being extra gently? I skipped on the bikes, but was thinking on getting them later on if/when money improves. 

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3 minutes ago, Lonely Soldier Boy said:

So how widespread is the breakage issue? Is it one of those things that will happen no matter what or can it be avoided by being extra gently? I skipped on the bikes, but was thinking on getting them later on if/when money improves. 

I have four. None of them have the breakage issue.

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4 hours ago, Perxion said:

anymoon do you have any news about BBToys? Anyone have news? Thanks

Negative, I won't hear about it until everyone else. They always deliver though. 

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both my stick and ray have cracks, yellow have stress mark out of the box and i have 2 of them too, yikes

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5 hours ago, Lonely Soldier Boy said:

So how widespread is the breakage issue? Is it one of those things that will happen no matter what or can it be avoided by being extra gently? I skipped on the bikes, but was thinking on getting them later on if/when money improves. 

My stick and Rey are ok.  The yellow has a stress mark out of the box.  Comparing them, the part is cut thinner at the stress mark than the original Stick and Rey.

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6 hours ago, Lonely Soldier Boy said:

So how widespread is the breakage issue? Is it one of those things that will happen no matter what or can it be avoided by being extra gently? I skipped on the bikes, but was thinking on getting them later on if/when money improves. 

Ok. I have to agree that this is one of those things that no matter how gentle or rough you handle it, it cannot be avoided. And yes, I do transform my toys gently.

I checked all three bikes that I have and one of Stick’s already has cracks. Both Ley and Yellow already have some light stress mark on one side. And my Yellow hasn’t been transformed yet. Not sure if there’s a possibility of repairing it without ruining the rest of the parts. :cray:

 

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Such a terrible situation with these particular toys.  I feel for you guys who invested in this line.

Could the same possibility exist when the Legioss is released? That is what I was looking forward to but now I think I’ll have to forget this as a whole.

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I believe this situation is what Japanese called ‘Shikata ga nai’. :unknw:

 

Oh well.

 

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If someone could design it, could this part be produced Via Shapeways? 

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3 hours ago, 505thAirborne said:

If someone could design it, could this part be produced Via Shapeways? 

How would that pin even be pulled out to make the repair?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

How would that pin even be pulled out to make the repair?

This. The pin would probably need to be removed by destroying it. So then it will need that new parts, and a new fastening system. I'd be happy to take a crack at designing a fastening fix. But none of mine are cracked/broken. I'm not "drilling" into one of these.;)

Edited by sqidd

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16 hours ago, nightmareB4macross said:

Such a terrible situation with these particular toys.  I feel for you guys who invested in this line.

Could the same possibility exist when the Legioss is released? That is what I was looking forward to but now I think I’ll have to forget this as a whole.

Every new transforming toy has the potential for a design, engineering, factory or materials flaw. These are very complex toys. I hope that the Legioss being simpler in transformation and bigger in size will be durable enough but unless you play the waiting game, there's always a risk. The real bummer in this case is that the problem is next to impossible to fix for the average collector. 

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Speaking of Legioss.. oof on that size. A DX 1/48 VF-1 in the same scale is almost twice as tall and less than an inch taller than an HMR.

image.png.b8e1288037010c155eeaaecba652a35f.png

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5 minutes ago, Grey728 said:

A DX 1/48 VF-1 in the same scale is almost twice as tall and less than an inch taller than an HMR.

Actually, a Hi-Metal R Valkyrie in battroid is exactly 160mm, to the tip of the head lasers.  

Sentinel's Legioss will be smaller than Toynami's, Aoshima's, or CM's were.

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6 minutes ago, Grey728 said:

Speaking of Legioss.. oof on that size. A DX 1/48 VF-1 in the same scale is almost twice as tall and less than an inch taller than an HMR.

image.png.b8e1288037010c155eeaaecba652a35f.png

I wasn't too thrilled with this either. But, a few people on here pointed out that if/when the Tread/Beta comes out the two combined will be quite big. Then you have to start thinking about available display space. Would I have liked a bigger Legioss? When/if the Tread/Beta comes out I'll probably be glad it isn't. My Mospeada shelf is going to be pretty full with a Alpha/Beta Legioss/Tread in fighter (is that what it's called?) and a Legioss in.....I can't remember now.....solider mode? I don't want to add another shelf for one or two toys. Then I wil be obligated to fill that up all the way. Because science?:unknw:

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2 minutes ago, tekering said:

Actually, a Hi-Metal R Valkyrie in battroid is exactly 160mm, to the tip of the head lasers.  

Sentinel's Legioss will be smaller than Toynami's, Aoshima's, or CM's were.

You're probably making him feel a lot better.:rofl:

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Just now, sqidd said:

I wasn't too thrilled with this either. But, a few people on here pointed out that if/when the Tread/Beta comes out the two combined will be quite big. Then you have to start thinking about available display space. Would I have liked a bigger Legioss? When/if the Tread/Beta comes out I'll probably be glad it isn't. My Mospeada shelf is going to be pretty full with a Alpha/Beta Legioss/Tread in fighter (is that what it's called?) and a Legioss in.....I can't remember now.....solider mode? I don't want to add another shelf for one or two toys. Then I wil be obligated to fill that up all the way. Because science?:unknw:

Photo above already shows what each mode are called. ;) 

 

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8 minutes ago, no3Ljm said:

Photo above already shows what each mode are called. ;) 

 

My neck is....... sore?:D

Yeah, that's a totally convincing excuse.

EDIT:

I just looked. It was all highlighted for me and everything! I'm such a tool.:rofl:

Edited by sqidd

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4 minutes ago, sqidd said:

My neck is....... sore?:D

Yeah, that's a totally convincing excuse.

EDIT:

I just looked. It was all highlighted for me and everything! I'm suck a tool.:rofl:

Ok ok. You're excused. :lol: 

 

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Personally I don't care much about Beta. I'd prefer it to be at least 1/35 for such money

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11 hours ago, Grey728 said:

Speaking of Legioss.. oof on that size. A DX 1/48 VF-1 in the same scale is almost twice as tall and less than an inch taller than an HMR.

image.png.b8e1288037010c155eeaaecba652a35f.png

Did you expect it to be taller? We knew the scale for it already, so it was to be expected to be around that size.

People tend to think Legioss and Valkyries are about the same size, but that's completely wrong. I know the price seems high for its size, but it's what Sentinel is used to charging. It's like iPhones, too expensive for what they are, but people buy them anyway.

Edited by Convectuoso

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7 minutes ago, Convectuoso said:

Did you expect it to be taller? We knew the scale for it already, so it was to be expected to be around that size.

People tend to think Legioss and Valkyries are about the same size, but that's completely wrong. I know the price seems high for its size, but it's what Sentinel is used to charging. It's like iPhones, too expensive for what they are, but people buy them anyway.

Sentinel's production runs are probably a small fraction of Bandai. That's probably where most of the cost difference comes from. Plus Bandai is a much bigger organization so it's easier for them to amortize costs. I have no idea how many DX VF-1S's Bandai just made or how many units of this Sentinel will be running. My WAG is Sentinel will be 10% of Bandai. When it comes to cost efficiency that is a gargantuan difference.

Sorta related. My main product/products are vastly difference in price depending on production run counts. And unlike toys what I produce is very, very materials driven (they're a huge part of the cost). Even with materials being a huge factor which the price of doesn't change regardless of production run size, if I was making runs 10x bigger than I am right now it would save me 30%. And that isn't taking different production techniques that I could take advantage of with runs that large. With different techniques I would cut costs even more.

It would not surprise me to lean that Bandai is producing units for 30-50% less than Sentinel.

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Honestly I heard it was small but I thought it would at least be as tall as a 1/60 VF-1 in Soldier mode. I’m not as familiar with Mospeda as I am with Macross. I just remember, as a child, that the Legioss toy was just as large as a VF-1. 

I’ll likely still keep my pre-order but I do feel that giant robots are supposed to be..  well.. giant. Know what I mean?

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