The Unlicensed Third Party Transformers Thread

[Kuma Style]

[RavenHawk]

1 hour ago, Old_Nash said:

https://toy-wizards.com/2018/12/27/hasbro-cant-stop-3rd-parties-from-making-transformer-toys-and-here-is-why/?fbclid=IwAR13gb34Qia9PLjt1J5gpfhK1lGv-uLoMamHID2-Aq2Dku5qrDV97AtgOno

 

I'm sorry, but this article is just horribly misinformed. This is the kind of stuff people read online and then think that it is based on actual statutes and caselaw, and leads to more and more misconceptions.

Some of my favorite parts:

"You see, if someone were to release a graphic T-shirt with beloved Autobot Bumblebee’s face on it, it’s not a big deal. If that T-shirt had Bee’s face, the Bumblebee movie logo, and the Transformers brand logo all present, that’s a big no-no. The logos and branding are trademarks that cannot be duplicated for individual sale."

Except that the shirt with Bumblebee's face on it WOULD still be infringing. There would be very strong arguments that it would infringe the copyright on that face design, it would infringe commonlaw trademarks associated with it, and would likely be considered false designation of origin, unfair competition/deceptive acts, "passing off", etc.

"These companies, affectionately referred to as ‘Third party” in the collector’s community, are safe from large corporations taking action against them because they are very carefully avoiding infringing upon trademarks and copyrights. They never use actual names of characters, often opting to create fun word play that closely resembles it or one based on character traits. They do not include trademarked faction symbols, brand logos, recognizable semiotics or sign symbols, or any verbiage specific to their unique playability (i.e. Headmaster, Duocon, Triple Changer)."

Similarly,these figures that look darn near identical to the originals, and are clearly and intentionally based upon them, are still derivative works, which are protected by copyright. Oh, and changing a name to something very similar to a trademark, meant to make you think of the trademark, but not actually identical to the trademark... that still very often falls under trademark infringement.

"The only thing that these new versions of old classics might infringe upon is intellectual property and that’s a tough one to defend."

Yeah, uh, the trademarks and copyrights you've been talking about... those are intellectual property.

Don't get me wrong: I love 3P stuff. I just don't like when people who don't properly understand what they're talking about talk about it like they're experts.

In my opinion, and this is only a personal opinion, I suspect that Hasbro doesn't go after 3P companies and products because, though they would have a strong chance of proving copyright infringement and commonlaw trademark infringement in court, it just isn't worth the hassle for something that isn't eating into their profit much, if at all, would not lead to much of a financial award from the court compared to the cost of getting there, and would damage their reputation. The stuff that is directly knockoffs, in registered trademark infringing packaging, and is literally chipping away at their profits, however, is a different story.

[JB0]

If the "third-party" toys directly used Hasbro's trademarks, Hasbro would be legally required to go after them. If you don't defend your trademarks, you lose them.

 

But copyright gets vague when you aren't directly reproducing someone's work exactly, and plagiarism isn't really a concept in physical goods.

I'm not saying a case can't be made, but it isn't an easy case as long as they avoid using original names and logos.  

 

 

All that said, they haven't even managed to stop the direct bootleggers making unlicensed reissues.

Edited December 28, 2018 by JB0

[RavenHawk]

35 minutes ago, JB0 said:

If the "third-party" toys directly used Hasbro's trademarks, Hasbro would be legally required to go after them. If you don't defend your trademarks, you lose them.

 

But copyright gets vague when you aren't directly reproducing someone's work exactly, and plagiarism isn't really a concept in physical goods.

I'm not saying a case can't be made, but it isn't an easy case as long as they avoid using original names and logos.  

 

 

All that said, they haven't even managed to stop the direct bootleggers making unlicensed reissues.

I wouldn't say legally "required", but yes, they'd risk losing their registered trademarks.

I don't think I'd agree with you on the physical goods side of things. They're still protectable by copyright. Statues can be protected by copyright, architecture, etc. To me, these are a clear case of derivative works... but I think I've already derailed this thread enough.

I think that Hasbro could go after these companies, but what matters is that Hasbro isn't going after them, and the collector market has a wonderful selection of awesome things to choose from, whatever your tastes may be.

[JB0]

Realistically, they could go after them regardless of whether the law is on their side or not. There's plenty of cases of the bigger company suing the smaller one into oblivion without ever proving a thing.

If they wanted to shut someone down, their lawyers could make an assemblage of accusations carefully constructed to be expensive to defend(Atari vs Jeff Minter), and generate a new case with similar, but legally distinct. accusations every time a case is dismissed(Sony vs Bleem!).  It becomes a case of who has deeper pockets, and that's almost always going to be Hasbro.

...

Also realistically, most of the legally-distinct converting robot toys are from companies in China. It'd be hard to run them down, and it seems like whenever one does close their doors, another one springs up with the same staff the next week. It'd just be pissing away money and the fans' good will for the most transient of gains.

 

 

And I'm not saying there is no copyright on physical objects, just that it isn't as strong as it is for more traditionally copyrightable material. There's more wiggle room. While a "third-party Transformer" might not pass the standards of plagiarism that printed word or music is held to, it is most likely different enough to be considered a legally-distinct converting robot toy. 

Though woe unto the company that publishes comic books about their- wait a second!  Seriously, I can't actually think of a good reason KFC hasn't been sued. Their comic books are just begging for trouble even if the toys can slip through the cracks.

[tekering]

28 minutes ago, JB0 said:

I can't actually think of a good reason KFC hasn't been sued. Their comic books are just begging for trouble

Yeah, that's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[JB0]

That... looks fantastic. Best evil clone since Captain Kirk.

[slaginpit]

someone is butt hurt. Dont have to buy them you know

[Old_Nash]

https://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/hasbro-wins-legal-battle-against-bootlegs-in-china/42675/?fbclid=IwAR31MkZ7G-n3ZW0MA9KKe2j0ArNzw-NOqGzouxC0a7KFZvu00clOvx-XEnk

[Kuma Style]

On 12/28/2018 at 3:43 AM, JB0 said:

That... looks fantastic. Best evil clone since Captain Kirk.

You know... I thought the same thing, lol. It trips me out seeing Colonel Sanders look like such a bad ass.

----------

Looks like I'll be getting a chance to check out Buster Stealthwing and some other MTC stuff this week so that's cool. Hoping that the samples are or near production standard.

[Mog]

Both Colonels are sporting goatees. . . .

How will I know which one is the EVIL!!11! one?

[JB0]

11 hours ago, Mog said:

Both Colonels are sporting goatees. . . .

How will I know which one is the EVIL!!11! one?

If you can't check the facial hair, you check to see which one is wearing black.

But in this case, I think the answer is "both".

[Mog]

^^Yeah, they’re both evil. . . especially for CHICKENS!!  

[Dangard Ace]

XTB Eligos showed up yesterday.  FT Quietus showed up today.  Both look good, Quietus has the edge in paint and sharper sculpt.  XTB is bulkier and more imposing.  Posing them both next to FT Sovereign Quietus looks amazing.  Really compliment each other....BUT they're the same height.   Eligos being an older product isn't as shiny with paint but he's taller by just the right amount, at least according to the holy scale chart, that he looks like he could be Galvatrons right hand/bodyguard and he's big enough to go toe to toe with Ultramagnus(MP22).    

Looks like Eligos is going to be my Cyclonus and Quietus will be my Armada if I ever get around to transforming him.  That knee scratching up the chest transformation is worrisome.  Bad FT design bad!

[captain america]

Hapy new year, fleshlings!! I found these on TFW2005.

Left: MP-10, center: Magic Square, right: Transform Element

 

Transform Element next to Masterpiece Megatron. 

[Ignacio Ocamica]

Love the TE OP, but I'm really upset they couldn't incorporate thigh swivel articulation. It hinders poseability.

[M'Kyuun]

Both Magic Square's and Transform Element's OPs look good, but there are things I like better about the MS version, which I have PO'd. My only real gripe with it thus far is that the leg vents were left unpainted. I realize that's toon accurate, but damn the toon- they should be silver. Alas I may have to try painting them- not my forte by any means, but they just don't look right to me being blue..

[derex3592]

Dang, that Transform Element Optimus looks pretty darn good!  Do we know a ballpark $$$ yet for him?

 

[mikeszekely]

1 hour ago, derex3592 said:

Dang, that Transform Element Optimus looks pretty darn good!  Do we know a ballpark $$$ yet for him?

 

I do believe that ShowZ was taking preorders for $109.  Haven't seen him listed at any US stores yet, but I'd venture something like $130, $135.

I'm digging crazy engineering, the cartoon-accurate back robot back, and how clean the rear of the truck is on TE's, but the pelvis and thighs are too white, the head sculpt is my least favorite of the MP Optimus options, he's got the same short torso issues that MP-44 has (although not as bad) and the lack of a proper thigh swivel are killing my interest.

As for MS, I know some people don't like the chunkier proportions, but I do.  Indeed, that picture of him next to MP-10 shows how MS-01 is a lot like MP-10, but with fixes like shorter arms and more cartoon-accurate lower legs with hidden wheels.  So when I heard it was going to be releasing soon I caved.  Preordered and prepaid.  And it looks like ShowZ got his stock in, so I'm expecting a shipping notice by the weekend an in my hands before the month is out.

[Tking22]

If push came to shove, I'm in for TE, that things looks good. That said, they all look like fine Optimus upgrade options, but MP-44 is definitely my least favorite looking, and that price tag is still absurd even at the $300+ Amazon Japan has it at. I'm probably going to go with TE and hope for a head upgrade, I love basically everything on the TE Optimus EXCEPT the head sculpt, that is undeniably the weak point. Honestly? These comparisons do little to help MP-44 IMO, I know plenty will buy it and enjoy it, I just can't see myself ever saying that is the DEFINITIVE Optimus upgrade, these two look fantastic as well, plus, no ridiculous price tag due to a bunch of optional parts and crap I don't want.

[captain america]

Glorious!!

 

 

[jenius]

I wish I had the funds to go beyond Macross... these toys all look so nice.

[RavenHawk]

2 hours ago, captain america said:

Glorious!!

 

 

While I absolutely respect the engineering and design work that went into this, and the end result is gorgeous in both modes, it really just seems like complicating a transformation beyond the point of it being enjoyable. Did someone challenge the designer to try to come up with an OP that would require 842 dowel pins to transform?

Te last time I genuinely collected Transformers was during Transformers: Prime. After a few years of movie-verse toy drudgery, that line really made me appreciate transformations that were fun to do.

Again, it looks gorgeous, it looks impressive, and maybe it needs to be that complicated in order to look so good in both modes, but it just doesn't look fun to me.

[nhyone]

22 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Again, it looks gorgeous, it looks impressive, and maybe it needs to be that complicated in order to look so good in both modes, but it just doesn't look fun to me.

The reviewer says the transformation is complicated, but is logical, satisfying and can be "memorized" after one transformation.

[derex3592]

yeeeeh...about like the Drakken...LOL.  Annnywhoo...if I get one of these, he'll stay in robot mode and face off against MP-36 Megs, I'll leave my good old MP-10 in truck mode. 

[David Hingtgen]

I really wish someone would use that amount of care and engineering, to make a real-world-accurate-truck-mode, instead of trying to copy an old drawing of a truck...

[eXis10z]

On 1/2/2019 at 12:43 PM, captain america said:

Hapy new year, fleshlings!! I found these on TFW2005.

Left: MP-10, center: Magic Square, right: Transform Element

 

I can't decide between MS and TE

[tekering]

2 hours ago, eXis10z said:

I can't decide between MS and TE

Magic Square, all day long.

Look at the face, dude... and the clean, unbroken lines of the pelvis with the transparent amber lights... the rotating grey thighs... even the size and shape of the feet.

The battle-damage options are just icing on the cake!  

[M'Kyuun]

5 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

While I absolutely respect the engineering and design work that went into this, and the end result is gorgeous in both modes, it really just seems like complicating a transformation beyond the point of it being enjoyable. Did someone challenge the designer to try to come up with an OP that would require 842 dowel pins to transform?

Te last time I genuinely collected Transformers was during Transformers: Prime. After a few years of movie-verse toy drudgery, that line really made me appreciate transformations that were fun to do.

Again, it looks gorgeous, it looks impressive, and maybe it needs to be that complicated in order to look so good in both modes, but it just doesn't look fun to me.

I'm in the same boat concerning the almost gratuitously complex transformation, as neat and impressive as it is. Storing the front wheels in the crotch, and folding the face of the cab into his innards were standout moments in the transformation to me. I think it has the best truck mode, even if it isn't based on any particular real world model. Honestly, that doesn't bother me in the least. I really like how they were able to incorporate the waist into the cab and thin out the hitch deck. It doesn't look right to me without the silver stripe, though. In bot mode, I'm not crazy about the color or shape of the grey section of his torso, and something about his waist bugs me, although I can't quite put my finger on what it is. 

However, Magic Square's has TE beat in articulation, and I also like the chunkier proportions and sculpt- it's bot mode just looks amazing to me. Moreover, judging from the vid, MS-01's joints are more robust, especially in the legs and hips. The plastic looks better to me, and it has more paint apps. The transformation is similar to MP-10's with a few new tricks thrown in to hide the back wheels , which was always my biggest niggle with MP-10. This is my first time viewing TE's OP, and having watched a few different MS-01 vids now, I've no regrets going with Magic Square for my MP OP update. 

[JetJockey]

If the official Optimus isn't that good and I can't make it work, then at least there are other options that look really good. I've been listening to this song attempting to figure out which version of Optimus and Jazz I'm getting.

 

[nhyone]

8 hours ago, eXis10z said:

I can't decide between MS and TE

Don't, get both. 

[Tking22]

I read that TE Optimus has no thigh swivel due to transformation, the swivel is just above the knee joint, that will work, but it looks awkward as all hell. Bit of a bummer there, but I also read TE has another, non transforming head they plan on selling at a later date that is "better", what that entails I don't really know, more toon accurate? Better proportioned? The head is easily the weakest part on TE, so color me interested. Non transforming is once again a bummer, you will have to pop it on and remove it each time you transform the figure, PARTSFORMING!!11!!!11!1! I think I'm in for TE, better alt mode, and I'm not a fan of the super boxy look of MS.

[mikeszekely]

Magic Square Optimus shipped out last night. Hopefully customs doesn't take forever with it.

The more I look at TE, the more it just looks off to me. It's cheap enough I might still get one for my Optimus collection, but I'm more interested in it for alt mode.

[captain america]

9 hours ago, tekering said:

Magic Square, all day long.

Look at the face, dude... and the clean, unbroken lines of the pelvis with the transparent amber lights... the rotating grey thighs... even the size and shape of the feet.

The battle-damage options are just icing on the cake!  

Magic Square can perhaps best be described as an idealized Prime: he looks heroic, beefy, has great articulation and the head/face is the better of the two 3rd-party offerings. Chromed plastic is also very welcome.  That said, the figure's overall flat finish works against it, and both the matrix/chamber and alt modes aft section are very poor indeed. The battle-damage parts... Meh. They could at least have made the damage look more like it did in the movie and include a damaged head. As it is now, it's not something I'd use. Same goes for the energeon axe, especially because the way it fits over the fist makes the base ridiculously large; so large that it sticks out farther forward than the blade portion.

Transform Element takes it in the overall proportions department as the clear winner in terms of Season 1 toon accuracy. The transformation is elaborate, but I admire how they made it a kind of plastic origami/3D puzzle while still resulting in a cleaner robot and alt mode than Takara's offering. Seriously, that thing's a work of art! The matrix chamber and the matrix itself are beautiful and accurate. Poseability, though perhaps not quite as good as MS and Takara, is still decent. The lack of thigh-swivel is a bit irksome, but probably not an issue if posed properly. To me it has three drawbacks which if corrected, can make this the best Optimus Prime: the head, the bare red plastic which makes it looks like it's made of ketchup, and the silver truck parts which should be chrome. 

[mikeszekely]

1 hour ago, captain america said:

To me it has three drawbacks which if corrected, can make this the best Optimus Prime: the head, the bare red plastic which makes it looks like it's made of ketchup, and the silver truck parts which should be chrome. 

But can you correct them yourself? Supposedly TE will be shipping to retailers next week, so I don't see TE making any of those changes.

Edited January 3, 2019 by mikeszekely