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1 hour ago, M'Kyuun said:

although I absolutely hated how the cockpit section sat above the shoulders.

Admittedly, this is my main complaint too. Not a showstopper for me, just an imperfection.

1 hour ago, M'Kyuun said:

turning the wings into pitas.<_<

Lol!

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I'll give my minority opinion, I guess. :lol:

I like how clean the top of the F-15 alt is on this new version. I mean, it really comes together in my eyes. To me, the armatures of MP-11's null-rays were more of an eyesore than the ones we see here. Also, on my copies of Starscream and Acid Storm back in the day these armatures had a bad habit of popping off. Not a big deal, but not excellent either. It's also pretty cool that the null-rays at the end of the amatures can transform to show a completely different loadout. I do wonder if the new version will include a rack of missiles like MP-11. Mind, I do hope that any missiles accessories that are included in addition to the transforming null-rays are solid. I didn't like the rubbery missiles back in the day either.

Moving to the underside, it looks no worse than MP-11 to my eyes. Here's an old review on TFW I checked just to refresh my memory. It shows the underside of old:
https://www.tfw2005.com/boards/threads/mp11-masterpiece-starscream-v2-review.575011/

MP-11 has the seeker hands and head hanging out in the open. The new version uses that cover, which I admit is a compromise but it serves to make the alt mode toon accurate and also provides a nice connection point for a stand (which I hope Takara includes this time). The stand is able to connect in both bot mode and alt mode it seems. The bits and bobs that are visible for transformation don't bug me. I mean they had to go somewhere, so best they go underneath than on top. Bedsides, MP-11 had visible screws on the bottom so it was hardly clean of any bits and bobs of its own.

MP-11 has air brake and engine detail gimmicks, which I won't miss. MP-03 had these and the arrestor hook gimmick, which I also won't miss. This new mould only keeps the radar dish alt mode gimmick. It's a nice homage to the MP seeker lineage but I wouldn't miss it either if it was left out.

Quality issues that I remember running into on the MP-11 seekers: floppy torso connections, broken vertical stabs (out of the box), loose horizontal stabs, the annoying index finger issue which plagued MP-11 and MP-10. Those are the ones that stick.

Edited by technoblue
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8 hours ago, mark-1s said:

/\/\/\

Seriously. That was the first thing I noticed too. 

Alt mode inacuracies aside, I like what what I see even though I really don't think we need yet another MP seeker.  

 

What else were they supposed to do. They did v3s of Optimus and Megatron already, they pretty much HAD to redesign Starscream.

The only other option was do a toy that hasn't already been done twice in the line. And ttat's clearly impossible.

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I don't think it's that they redesigned it to fit the current aesthetic so much as some of the design choices that are at issue with some folks. I was looking forward to a redesign to fix some of the issues with the previous MP.  However, I think this has more stuff I don't like than the previous. It has a nice looking bot mode that I'm sure will have ridiculous amounts of articulation, which is great. And the head now sits at a proper elevation relative to the shoulders. Great again. The fighter mode took an enormous hit for that bot mode, and the bot mode also incorporates, what I feel is, an unnecessary cheat. There's a definite design dichotomy between their efforts to capture, accurately, ground vehicles, and their seeming nonchalance towards their accurately capturing flying vehicles. Starscream 2.0 proves the rule rather than an exception, and while it's more acceptable in their retail lines, that shouldn't be the case in their high end offering.  

I can't justify to myself paying upwards of $300 for a Seeker that is laughable at best in its fighter mode and uses a fake chest, when Maketoys created a precedent that captures the toon look in bot mode while becoming a far better looking F-15 without the need of faux parts, for half the cost. It doesn't have the articulation that 2.0 will undoubtedly have, but for everything else it does right, the choice for me is easy.

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*shrug* They're two different designs. I think the designers who worked on both have every right to be proud of their creations. If someone prefers Maketoys over the new MP far be it from me to persuade them to think otherwise, but I'm still not seeing how Takara's prototype is laughably inaccurate or a train wreck. I'm not willing to take part in any meme that downplays the effort that went into projects like this. I mean, it's far and away from what I do for my day job. I wouldn't even know where to begin to critique it.

All I can speak to is that my experience with Maketoys seekers has not been as golden. I've logged my issues in the third-party thread and won't repeat them here. Suffice to say, after owning Meteor, Lightning, and Skycrow, and having the wing fillers for each, I'm ready to see what Takara can do using their own updated engineering.

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2 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

I don't think it's that they redesigned it to fit the current aesthetic so much as some of the design choices that are at issue with some folks. I was looking forward to a redesign to fix some of the issues with the previous MP.  However, I think this has more stuff I don't like than the previous. It has a nice looking bot mode that I'm sure will have ridiculous amounts of articulation, which is great. And the head now sits at a proper elevation relative to the shoulders. Great again. The fighter mode took an enormous hit for that bot mode, and the bot mode also incorporates, what I feel is, an unnecessary cheat. There's a definite design dichotomy between their efforts to capture, accurately, ground vehicles, and their seeming nonchalance towards their accurately capturing flying vehicles. Starscream 2.0 proves the rule rather than an exception, and while it's more acceptable in their retail lines, that shouldn't be the case in their high end offering.  

I agree with this. Also “love” how it adds huge blocky hinges to the horizontal stabilizers. Man the Alt mode is atrocious.

Chris

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Yeah.

This upcoming Screamer-v2's puny thighs/leg-day skipper, the bulbous underside kibble, the seemingly current diaper mandate, and the reported faux-parts (faux canopy? etc) are making it rather just a bit unappealing to me.

Already anticipating the msrp to be north of 37k-yen...

 

 

Edited by treatment
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It took me a while to remember what that fake canopy cover reminded me of.

I absolutely hated that massive, ugly swing bar on those cheap Converter "Valks". I had the purple one lol. 

IMG_1651.JPG

And the more I look at the new Screamer and read more of the comments here, his alt mode is becoming less and less appealing. I still think it looks pretty good from top down though.

 

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I'm just gonna go out and say it.

When you take an airplane that is literally a box with wings, and then you STILL have to add box of robot parts UNDER THE FIRST BOX, you have FAILED at engineering.

From the top, yeah, it looks like an F-15.  They've never had trouble with that.  They just decided to make it look ducking fugly from every other possible angle this time.  :rolleyes: 

You say it improves on MP-11?  MP-11 didn't have a bellytank's worth of extra robot chest kibble just hanging around under the nose section.  For all their flaws, the MP-3 and MP-11 molds were flat underneath.  This just looks like the F-15's about to give birth. :p 

Edited by Chronocidal
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New Starscream is looking better and better, even alt-mode is perfectly workable for me as I see Takara trying to go for consistency across all modes by following the cartoon jet design rather than trying to fit in a real world one.

Sure if you are after a real world "as accurate" representation of a fighter jet, then this is not what it should be. But then again I wouldn't be looking for something like that in transforming toys based in a franchise of walking, talking robots with personality, that's just setting yourself up for continuous disappointment and frustration.

 

On 9/28/2020 at 12:18 PM, JB0 said:

What else were they supposed to do. They did v3s of Optimus and Megatron already, they pretty much HAD to redesign Starscream.

The only other option was do a toy that hasn't already been done twice in the line. And ttat's clearly impossible.

If I am not mistaken there are at least in total nine new MP/MPM toys since Bee v2, but who is counting right? Takara is definitely not properly prioritising their releases...

 

Edited by lechuck
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4 hours ago, lechuck said:

Sure if you are after a real world "as accurate" representation of a fighter jet, then this is not what it should be. But then again I wouldn't be looking for something like that in transforming toys based in a franchise of walking, talking robots with personality, that's just setting yourself up for continuous disappointment and frustration.

That's funny, because I have no such disappointment with my MP-11, which was much cheaper and looks great in both modes without the need of any faux parts.

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11 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

You say it improves on MP-11?  MP-11 didn't have a bellytank's worth of extra robot chest kibble just hanging around under the nose section.  For all their flaws, the MP-3 and MP-11 molds were flat underneath.  This just looks like the F-15's about to give birth. :p 

Not sure who said that here, although I do hope that it's true. It remains to be seen if the quality is there. That's a big IF. All I've said is that the MP-11 and Maketoys seekers that were in my collection over the years have left me wanting. Each of them improved on what came before, but fell short of what I was looking for at this scale.  

Ironically, rumor has it that Takara needed to get rights permission for the F-15 alt so someone thought it was good enough for them to pay up. I guess you guys have another reason to complain about the inflated price.  :p

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You're right, I guess I misread what you were saying about it not looking any worse than MP-11... though for me, I think it absolutely looks a lot worse, from nearly every angle.

Being able to see the hands and head from directly underneath on the MP-3/MP-11 molds has never bothered me, because they only appear from one angle that is usually masked by the shelf the plane is sitting on, or my hand if I'm holding it.  I don't consider anything that's fitting flush within the confines of the alt mode's shape to be "hanging out."  Compared to the giant hulking tumor of a spare robot chest box under this one that's visible from every angle except directly above... yeah, I can't say this new one isn't a whole lot worse in nearly every way.

As far as being toon accurate.. I don't see that beer gut here.
snap_cap00002-2104-1024-1024-80-wm-left_

And just to be clear here, we're talking about what looks like another full thickness of the entire aircraft body hanging underneath.  The perspective makes it hard to estimate, but I question whether the nose landing gear are even going to reach the ground on this.  

1293269253_ss(2020-09-29at10_23.21).thumb.jpg.e428c5216e75f69ce2f6b8351c22d5ac.jpg

Obviously that's rough, but that red through-line isn't even at the lowest part of the chest box, it's just using that blocky vent as a reference point because it's a clear shape, and it still looks just as deep as the entire jet intake.

Edit: Correction.. we won't have to worry about the landing gear not reaching the ground, because it looks like they didn't include any this time.  What I thought was the gear door is just part of the fuselage folding mechanism.  So... problem solved, I guess? <_< 

Not going to begrudge anyone liking the compromises it makes for a better bot, and I can't say the robot isn't beautiful, but personally, I would rather buy a cheaper non-transforming action figure of that Starscream and display him next to a model F-15 instead, and just avoid all of the ugly compromises on both ends.

Edited by Chronocidal
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2 minutes ago, danth said:

Wait, what? Seriously?

I'm guessing from the view of the underside, where there does seem to be a multi-layered hinge and door just ahead of the chest box, but I don't see any way for landing gear to actually fold out.  It's possible the prototype just doesn't have the secondary gear door that opens sideways yet, or that they're going to fold the wheels straight out of the chest box instead.

You're right, it does seem crazy that they wouldn't at least include some kind of gear for it.  The lower legs certainly look like they have some sort of panel for it.

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Ah! I see your point, Chronocidal. Thanks! 

I'm using the picture that shows the bottom of the MP in alt mode, so I guess this is my perspective on the whole debate.

Masterpiece-Starscream-V2-Prototype-6-1.thumb.jpeg.39f478f43e430b859a83f0503a63ef26.jpeg

The cover juts out above the bot-mode chest, as noted. What isn't clear is whether that piece is on its own level above everything else or if it's on the same level with the top of the leg thrusters which house the rear landing gear. If the latter, then I'm okay with the compromise. If the former, then it's a meh solution indeed. I think @M'Kyuun noted that it reminded him of the ER seeker solution. Yeah, I can see how that's disappointing now at MP scale but I still want to give it a chance.  

Really, I get wanting a sleek F-15 alt, especially since MP-03 blazed the trail, so to speak. I'm going to miss the lack of kibble underneath and the integrated intake transformation that both MP-03 and MP-11 have in their design. Ha! Maybe I should have held onto one of my old MP seekers after all.

Edit: The landing gear have been shown already, at least the front landing gear.

Masterpiece-Starscream-V2-Prototype-7-1.thumb.jpeg.962b1731e62e7787e0b685add2d78bc2.jpeg

Edited by technoblue
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12 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

Got it thanks, I hadn't seen that one.  Still curious whether the chest will drag, but that's one view they probably aren't going to show us. :lol: 

HaHa! Yeah, how it rolls (or not) is still a mystery. :ph34r:

And here's another picture of the bottom of fighter mode to confuse things.

Masterpiece-Starscream-V2-Prototype-2-1.thumb.jpeg.554e9466a139f3dd8762fc3711a8006b.jpeg

 

Now I really want to see that rear landing gear, and whether or not the F-15 keeps a level profile when all gear are down.

Edited by technoblue
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I guess it comes down to what you really want.  I agree with everyone who says that Starscream 3's jet mode looks pretty bad with that big chunk of stuff covering the chest/gap (I'm not convinced it's covering a faux chest- you can see seams where the nose might break apart and part of the cockpit might actually be the robot chest), and I'm certainly not going to tell anyone who's happy with MP-11 that they're wrong, but even with the thinnish thighs I think Starscream 3 looks far superior in robot mode.  And for all the issues with the underside the top of the jet looks fine to me.  If I were still rocking MP-03 or MP-11 and Takara weren't charging more than $150-ish I'd definitely trade up.  But, I've got the Meteor mold for the three Season 1 Seekers, and I have a hard time imagining Takara charging less than double what I'd pay, so I'm good with what I've got.

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Further viewing these pics of 2.0, I'm once again struck by the differences between alt mode accuracy requirements by the licensees. Sunstreaker was required by Lamborghini to have a standard looking Countach mode, which lead to the large backpack compromise in bot mode. But the car could sit on your shelf as an ideal replica. Likewise, Jeep wouldn't allow for a head-hole, necessitating yet another compromise to the bot mode by requiring the head be attached via an armature that floats over the intact hood. Again, in Jeep mode, it's accurate enough to sit on a shelf as a replica. It's only by up close handling that you'd realize it transforms. Then we come to Starscream, where all compromises were to the benefit of the bot mode, and to the extreme detriment of the fighter mode. Apparently, unlike the automakers, McDonnell-Douglas aren't as finnicky about how the F-15 looks in toy form. As I and others have pointed out, it's one good viewing angle is from above. This is how it should look from below, minus the external fuel tanks, of course. Look at all that flat- F'n beautiful.

image.thumb.jpeg.4184f81308aee799204ecc0814792ba1.jpeg

The forward fuselage melds seamlessly on the same level as the rest of the fuselage all the way back until it tapers slightly to the exhaust nozzles. I wish Micky-D had insisted on the same levels of accuracy as the car makers. I think Takara needs that discipline, as they've not been taken to task with their aircraft figures. The Bayformers, much as I dislike the aesthetic, took them to task to really expand their design philosophy beyond the boxy designs they'd been producing up until that time. They also stretched their wings to come up with much more complex and innovative engineering, for better or worse. Mostly better, IMHO. Now they've taken the lessons they've learned to turn a realistic looking vehicle (that doesn't fly) and turn it into a Sunbow animated robot, which introduces a whole new set of compromises into the mix. I will concede, however, that their move towards imparting very high levels of articulation into the MP line (and to a lesser degree, the mainline) is long, long overdue and greatly laudable. Thank you, Takara. One of my long time wishes granted. 

I'm getting off-point. Essentially, I wish they held the same standard for alt mode accuracy in the MP line, be it air land, or sea. The new Starscream has far too many compromises to its fighter mode.  I have the New Age Seekers, and at legends scale, they present a more accurate F-15 mode. Not perfect, mind you- part of the forearms, the knees, and the feet all extend below the natural fuselage level, but it's done more cleanly, IMHO, than 2.0. It also doesn't need a fake chest. Sorry to disagree with you @mikeszekely, but looking at the chest shape in bot mode compared to that in fighter, I'm certain those are two different canopies.

As for gear, to me it looks like the mains will be housed in the bottom of the feet rather than the traditional knees, which places them quite a bit aft of where they should be (about aircraft center). I, too, wonder what kind of ground clearance there'll be, as the chest already hangs lower than the bottom of the intake, with the chest cover extending lower still. It's going to have Legioss syndrome, Sentinel's Legioss notwithstanding. MP-03 had a number of deign ideas I liked, and wish they'd carried over. One of those is rotating the chest intakes to form the fighter's intakes- great double use of a bot part integrated into the alt mode. It also allowed for the chest to be flatter in alt mode. Kawamori streamlined the fighter mode, too, by giving it E- model conformal tanks, and shaping the feet to form a more natural taper to the exhausts. It wasn't G1 accurate, but I thought it a good compromise to make for a better looking fighter. I'm not saying I don't like the Sunbow bot design; I do, and I think Takara did a good job in that area, but there's a tangible lack of balance between Screamer 2.0's alt and bot modes when compared to the majority of the other G1 bots in the line. With all their experience designing these things, at this point in the line's history, there should be no design dichotomy based on whether or not the vehicle flies, and yet there clearly is.


 

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3 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

Sorry to disagree with you @mikeszekely, but looking at the chest shape in bot mode compared to that in fighter, I'm certain those are two different canopies.

I looked at it again, and let's say I think we're both right.

732027643_1601119190(1).thumb.jpg.e995ae3bf86f69ec784b0f26f1ddf910.jpg

As I noted, there's a seam here.  I expect that the section to the right and above the seam actually ends up in Starscream's chest, while the rest collapses into the void left by it to fit into his backpack.

1601119190.thumb.jpg.5a2b08e1051f560c728936be11873197.jpg

Here, you see this thing behind the seat that looks like a broiler pan? (I'm sure David knows more about it, but I think it's basically a cover for the empty space on an F-15C where the second seat would go on an F-15D).

1118194505_1601119193(4).thumb.jpg.a164dd292c5463ed2bd31e31ffb1a055.jpg

You can see the part of the cockpit (top arrow), as well as the broiler pan and part of the the rim of the actual canopy (bottom arrow) behind the fake canopy.

3 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

Then we come to Starscream, where all compromises were to the benefit of the bot mode, and to the extreme detriment of the fighter mode.

While I think Takara could have made fewer sacrifices for an as-good bot mode and a better jet mode, I have to be honest and say that I prefer they go this route (with a few exceptions).  Almost every Transformer I have on display is in robot mode.  In some cases, like Bumblebee and Cliffjumper, I actually prefer the chibi cartoon proportions over a realistic Beetle and especially over a realistic Porsche.  I didn't even realize that Cliffjumper was supposed to be a Porsche until well into adulthood.  

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3 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

Apparently, unlike the automakers, McDonnell-Douglas aren't as finnicky about how the F-15 looks in toy form.

Micky-D got bought by Boeing years ago. And Boeing's looking pretty bad these days. They may very well be rubberstamping it to avoid a reputation as a difficult licensor(which would reduce licensing income).

...

Or simply not care as long as they get paid.

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@mikeszekely Yep, I believe you're right- the actual cockpit sits behind a faux canopy in bot mode.  Good eye. I think they could have found a better solution without resorting to the fake canopy, but they didn't. <_<

I agree with you on the minibots; for the sake of G1 accuracy, give them their chibi car modes (I didn't know Cliffy was a Porsche until adulthood, either. I probably learned it here). I was pretty pleased when they showed MP Bee 2.0 until they showed his less than appealing bot mode. Most disappointing. The car mode looked great though.

@JB0 Considering how many F-15 toys and models have been made since the 70's, with varying degrees of accuracy, I don't think they really care what the toymakers do. If it's intended to represent the F-15, they want a license fee and I think that's where their care factor stops. Just my opinion. They don't seem too insistent about accuracy like the car makers are. If they did, Starscream 2 wouldn't look like that.

Edit: Putting it in perspective, Micky-D makes millions to billions in govt contracts to the DOD and other govt agencies.  I'm making the assumption that their licensing fees, by comparison, are a drop in the bucket, and serve as a very basic IP protection. If anyone here works for a large corporation that licenses their products/likenesses, I'd be interested to know how involved they actually are in how those licenses are applied.

In a way, I'm glad the YF-23 was spared the butchery of Takara; I see what they do to the F-22 by way of Bay's Starscream design- every toy of him betrays its nature from any angle but above, and the 22 is a big boxy jet that's far friendlier to translation. The 23, by contrast is sleek and curvy and would have been absolutely ruined in any translation they might have attempted. Thank goodness for the YF-21 and the YF/VF-19, both of which took their inspiration from the YF-23.

Edited by M'Kyuun
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4 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

You can see the part of the cockpit (top arrow), as well as the broiler pan and part of the the rim of the actual canopy (bottom arrow) behind the fake canopy.

Wat.

So the real canopy behind a fake canopy. And the fake canopy behind a cover in alt mode.

Lol WTF? Why?

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It's looking more like the money Takara paid Boeing was damages for defacing their product, rather than an actual license. :p

I think that underside shot actually states more about their approach to this product than any other angle.  How "finished" are they calling this?  Because I don't think I've ever seen any "MP" figures with that much hollow space where they just flat out didn't mold anything. 

Edited by Chronocidal
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41 minutes ago, danth said:

Wat.

So the real canopy behind a fake canopy. And the fake canopy behind a cover in alt mode.

Lol WTF? Why?

Yo dog, we heard you like canopies so we put a canopy in your canopy so you-*ringring*

Hello? Yes? Oh, my apologies. No problem. *click*

Sorry, 2010 called and they just told me they want their jokes back. I can't finish that sentence.

 

 

Seriously, though. The apathy, if not actual antipathy, that Hasbro and TakaraTomy express towards competent transformer design when they have an aerial mode is shocking. It is like they've decided that since it is harder than a car(because the bottom is visible in flight) that they aren't going to expend any effort at all.

Maybe there's a good reason for the double canopy, but that entire plane mode is a trainwreck from every angle other than straight above, and the underside is a complete embarrassment.

Edited by JB0
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I got a few emails from Amazon.  A bunch of my Transformers preorders that were listed for November and December will apparently arrive Friday.  Hasbro must be rushing to put Earthrise to bed and get Kingdom going.

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The last three posts by @danth, @Chronocidal, and @JB0 all echo my sentiments concerning TT's approach to aerial alt modes. It's a little more forgivable in a retail toy, but in a toy that purports to be their high end, and priced thusly, Screamer 2 reflects an egregious paucity of effort. The canopy within a canopy is such an unnecessary compromise that could have been accomplished sans cheat with a little better engineering. Maketoys managed it, as did the first two MP Seekers. The whole exhaust section is just an unsightly mess.:bad: 

The real tragedy here is that I know TT can do better, because they have proven it with other figures down through the years. They've employed some amazing engineering and innovative solutions to any number of challenges across all their lines of Transformers. JBO's statement about TT's antipathy toward aerial alt modes is both poignant and proven  repeatedly; the ratio of good to excellent aerial alts to not so good to downright terrible ones is abysmally low. It seems to be a systemic philosophy towards those designs, as we so rarely get a gem amongst the myriad turds they produce. Screamer2 is just the latest victim.:(

Edited by M'Kyuun
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MP-11 has the most accurate alt mode (it has the correct vertical tail fins) except the leg kibbles. The bot mode for the new one looks good but the centre piece kibble in the jet mode is a killing blow.

Edited by Firefox
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