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On 5/29/2020 at 11:21 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Past tense... the Supervision Army was controlled by the Protodeviln.

After the Protodeviln were sealed away by the anima spiritia, the brainwashed members of the Supervision Army lost the highest level of their chain of command.  With neither side having anyone left who could call a halt to the conflict, the Zentradi forces and Supervision Army have continued to follow the last orders they were given and have waged 500,000 years of war against each other with no sign of stopping.

Exsedol was afraid of the Protodeviln because they were essentially terrifying, utterly unstoppable monsters by the Zentradi's standards.  It took anima spiritia, Protoculture who had special spirita like Basara's, to contain the Protodeviln and seal them away in the laboratory where they had been created.

Initially, the Zentradi were unable to effectively oppose the Supervision Army because they had standing orders to not "interfere with" the Protoculture... and the Supervision Army's troops included vast numbers of brainwashed Protoculture.  It wasn't until the order to not interfere with the Protoculture was rescinded that the Zentradi forces could properly fight against the Supervision Army.

That may be official lore, however I like to believe the SA (IF) "woke up" and the remnants are simply fighting for survival against superior Zentradi numbers when they encounter them.  In such a scenario, the Zentradi would be at a disadvantage having to use their existing equipment, whereas a force of "freed" PC and Zentradi could continue to develop defensive armaments that could punch above their weight class.  Thus increasing the SA (IF) survivability during engagements.

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2 hours ago, Zinjo said:

Actually, ADV/HG did get the Animeigo's restored video footage, they couldn't get the restored "audio" as that was licensed directly from BW in Japan.  When the license with HG ran out they sent the restored audio masters to BW in Japan.  I like to think of it as Animeigo flipping the bird to HG who essentially "stole" the remaining stock of their DVDs as part of the closing of the license.  Animeigo had a fire sale of sorts (how I got my set) but couldn't move all of their inventory before the hand over.

Ah. Thanks for the correction.

Yeah, it always seemed to me like HG did Animeigo very wrong.

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7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Thus far, humanity has not encountered any other sub-Protoculture species that had reached a level of technological development rivaling pre-Overtechnology Earth at the time they were discovered.

Zola seems to have been the farthest along, with the native Zolans having an acknowledged tech level rivaling early 20th century Earth at the time the New UN Government discovered their homeworld.  Windermere IV was still a medieval civilization when the SDF-05 Megaroad-04 discovered it after being damaged by the fold faults surrounding the system, and its neighbors Voldor and Ragna are implied to have been at roughly similar levels of development when they were contacted by humanity.  

It seems likely that most of the Protoculture's engineered species were either destroyed alongside their ancient creators at the outset of the Stellar Republic's war with the Supervision Army or were caught up in it in the intervening millennia.  The ones who've slipped the net, like humanity, were still hundreds if not thousands of years from independently developing faster-than-light travel.  The most advanced were only just starting to explore space inside their own solar systems.  Humanity got lucky/unlucky when someone dropped a mostly-intact Supervision Army gunship on their doorstep and were just advanced enough to start figuring out how it worked by investing almost the entire planetary economy into studying it after the mass "oh crap" that came with the realization that it was a warship of breathtaking size and power.  If there were other sub-Protoculture species that were farther along, they may have either been destroyed by one side or the other in the Protoculture's civil war, been "drafted" by some part of the Supervision Army, or simply been destroyed in the crossfire at some point in the last 500,000 years of war between the Zentradi and Supervision Army.  (There is an outside possibility that they took one look at the state of the rest of the galaxy and went "Nope! Nope! Nope!" and decided to isolate themselves from the greater galaxy, which would account for them having not been discovered.)

Also keep in mind that the core worlds of the Republic would have been much closer together compared to the areas of the Galaxy where Windermere and the Earth are located.  Both worlds had legacy PC tech found on them, however it seems Windermere was more aware of theirs compared to Earth. 

This makes me wonder if Windermere somehow played a part in the initial SR civil war that prompted the development of the PD in the first place.  Did one side engineer the Star Singer to subjugate the SR citizenry, while the other was developing Super Zentradi weapons of Mass Destruction against the former?

Was it the research into the Star Singer that enabled the PC to identify and deploy the Anima Spiritia soldiers who ultimately imprisoned the PD?

Edited by Zinjo
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8 hours ago, Zinjo said:

Also keep in mind that the core worlds of the Republic would have been much closer together compared to the areas of the Galaxy where Windermere and the Earth are located.  Both worlds had legacy PC tech found on them, however it seems Windermere was more aware of theirs compared to Earth. 

Well, the prevailing in-universe hypothesis is that the Brisingr globular cluster was the last place the Protoculture fled to in order to escape the ongoing conflict between the Zentradi and Supervision Army before going extinct.

The fact that the Star Singer they created figures prominently in the mythology of the sub-Protoculture native Windermereans suggests they stuck it out on Windermere IV long enough for the undeveloped natives they genetically re-engineered to become aware of their existence and incorporate them into their religion.  Their religion seems to border on being a cargo cult, inspired by the abilities the Protoculture engineered them with and myth-preserved memories of the Protoculture's sufficiently advanced technology.

 

8 hours ago, Zinjo said:

This makes me wonder if Windermere somehow played a part in the initial SR civil war that prompted the development of the PD in the first place.  Did one side engineer the Star Singer to subjugate the SR citizenry, while the other was developing Super Zentradi weapons of Mass Destruction against the former?

Was it the research into the Star Singer that enabled the PC to identify and deploy the Anima Spiritia soldiers who ultimately imprisoned the PD?

Probably not, given that the people researching the Brisingr globular cluster's relation to the Protoculture believe it was the very last place the ancient Protoculture fled to before going extinct.

The Star Singer, Sigur Berrentzs, and the whole delta wave system they constructed seem to have been one last attempt at unifying the galaxy, ending the war between the Zentradi and Supervision Army while also achieving their societal ambition of becoming a unified species in a manner similar to the Vajra.  Whether they died out before they could test it or had the same fear the NUNS did that it'd cause a mass "your head a'splode" is unclear, but they never activated it.  One point that argues strongly for it being one of their last creations is that it requires a Windermerean to activate it.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/26/2020 at 3:19 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, the prevailing in-universe hypothesis is that the Brisingr globular cluster was the last place the Protoculture fled to in order to escape the ongoing conflict between the Zentradi and Supervision Army before going extinct.

The fact that the Star Singer they created figures prominently in the mythology of the sub-Protoculture native Windermereans suggests they stuck it out on Windermere IV long enough for the undeveloped natives they genetically re-engineered to become aware of their existence and incorporate them into their religion.  Their religion seems to border on being a cargo cult, inspired by the abilities the Protoculture engineered them with and myth-preserved memories of the Protoculture's sufficiently advanced technology.

 

Probably not, given that the people researching the Brisingr globular cluster's relation to the Protoculture believe it was the very last place the ancient Protoculture fled to before going extinct.

The Star Singer, Sigur Berrentzs, and the whole delta wave system they constructed seem to have been one last attempt at unifying the galaxy, ending the war between the Zentradi and Supervision Army while also achieving their societal ambition of becoming a unified species in a manner similar to the Vajra.  Whether they died out before they could test it or had the same fear the NUNS did that it'd cause a mass "your head a'splode" is unclear, but they never activated it.  One point that argues strongly for it being one of their last creations is that it requires a Windermerean to activate it.

Hmm..I wonder if all Protoculture is extinct, of if perhaps a small pocket is still alive somewhere in the galaxy/ universe/ stored in heavy heavy layers of plot armor?

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22 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Hmm..I wonder if all Protoculture is extinct, of if perhaps a small pocket is still alive somewhere in the galaxy/ universe/ stored in heavy heavy layers of plot armor?

Eh... that'd be up to the writers of future Macross works.

Defining "extinct" kind of changes the answer a bit when it comes to the Protoculture.  Super Dimension Fortress Macross presented the Protoculture only in vague terms, as the Zentradi's long-vanished creators who had probably also created humanity.  Macross: Do You Remember Love? put a different spin on things by revealing that the Zentradi (and Meltrandi) were Protoculture clones who had been genetically modified for use as a giant clone army.  That would technically mean the Protoculture are arguably the most populous species in the galaxy in purely genetic terms, though their culture and society's long-since extinct since that stuff was all forbidden to the Zentradi.  (Macross Chronicle's Protoculture worldguide sheet broadly supports the Zentradi's genetic template as being derived from the Protoculture's.)  Macross 7 kind of drew a line under the idea that the Protoculture were largely wiped out in their civil war, and slowly went extinct hundreds of thousands of years before humanity emerged on the interstellar stage.  Macross Frontier and Macross Delta have both generally supported that line, with the Brisingr globular cluster supposedly being the Protoculture's last enclave before they died out in the distant past.  The Supervision Army is also still around, though it is not clear if that force still contains brainwashed Protoculture or is now made up exclusively of brainwashed Zentradi.

Macross II: Lovers Again was the only story that toyed with the idea they might still be around in some fashion.  The Mardook were strongly implied, but never explicitly stated, to be the descendants of a group of Protoculture who fled the collapse of their civilization like the ones who'd settled on Earth in the Macross: Do You Remember Love? movie.  Unlike the Protoculture in the main Macross timeline who seem to have generally regretted their actions in destroying galactic civilization and turning loose two unstoppable clone armies and being content to hide out in increasingly remote places to avoid the wrath of their creations, the Mardook decided to be a bit more proactive about protecting their culture by destroying anything that would threaten it... including other cultures that might contaminate it (hence their war on Earth).

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Isn't there a Protoculture [post conversion to a vajra-like form, likely not it's original body] at the end of Macross Zero?

It takes off with Sara to somewhere...

 

 

Or was it some kind of autonomous drone?

Edited by slide
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3 minutes ago, slide said:

Isn't there a Protoculture [post conversion to a vajra-like form, likely not it's original body] at the end of Macross Zero?

Nope... that's a bio-technological construct the ancient Protoculture left behind on Earth to monitor humanity's development in their absence, and destroy them in the event that they developed into a warlike race and acquired the technology for space travel.  It's been said that the Protoculture based its design on the Vajra Queen's form.  It had an onboard AI, but was dependent on the engineered fold song abilities of the Mayan islander priestesses for maintenance and needed a pilot in order to operate.

That and the Fold Evil in Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy seem to be further developments of the same organic technology that went into the Evil-series bioweapons that became the Protodeviln.  (One of the lessons learned seems to have been "make sure that thing requires a pilot to operate".)

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2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nope... that's a bio-technological construct the ancient Protoculture left behind on Earth to monitor humanity's development in their absence, and destroy them in the event that they developed into a warlike race and acquired the technology for space travel.  It's been said that the Protoculture based its design on the Vajra Queen's form.  It had an onboard AI, but was dependent on the engineered fold song abilities of the Mayan islander priestesses for maintenance and needed a pilot in order to operate.

That and the Fold Evil in Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy seem to be further developments of the same organic technology that went into the Evil-series bioweapons that became the Protodeviln.  (One of the lessons learned seems to have been "make sure that thing requires a pilot to operate".)

With the pilot being a "fail-safe" intended to ensure the weapon could not become autonomous on it's own and potentially turn on its' creators. Correct?

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8 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

With the pilot being a "fail-safe" intended to ensure the weapon could not become autonomous on it's own and potentially turn on its' creators. Correct?

More like a fundamental necessity of having been designed to be non-autonomous.

One can only assume the ancient Protoculture were smarting a bit after their previous two brilliant ideas for fully autonomous living weapons ended up running out of control and left what little remained of their civilization fleeing for its collective life.  Of course, it was only that one specific thing they seem to have learned from and they kept building stupidly dangerous sh*t and having to build increasingly complex containment structures to safeguard the brainchildren of their reckless idiocy from anyone who'd stumble on their handiwork after they were gone.

Even with the Birdhuman requiring a flesh and blood pilot whom its onboard AI could interrogate about the current state of affairs on Earth, it still nearly destroyed the planet due to a premature activation that was only halted by it decapitating itself at some point in ancient history and again when Sara Nome woke it up in 2008.

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14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

More like a fundamental necessity of having been designed to be non-autonomous.

One can only assume the ancient Protoculture were smarting a bit after their previous two brilliant ideas for fully autonomous living weapons ended up running out of control and left what little remained of their civilization fleeing for its collective life.  Of course, it was only that one specific thing they seem to have learned from and they kept building stupidly dangerous sh*t and having to build increasingly complex containment structures to safeguard the brainchildren of their reckless idiocy from anyone who'd stumble on their handiwork after they were gone.

Even with the Birdhuman requiring a flesh and blood pilot whom its onboard AI could interrogate about the current state of affairs on Earth, it still nearly destroyed the planet due to a premature activation that was only halted by it decapitating itself at some point in ancient history and again when Sara Nome woke it up in 2008.

Thanks for the clarification; sometimes I don't perceive things correctly.

At this point, the Protoculture strongly remind me of John Hammond from Jurassic Park; too bad Ian Malcom wasn't there to tell them:

"If I may... Um, I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, you patented it, and packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox.."

" Don't you see the danger, John, inherent in what you're doing here? Genetic power is the most awesome force the planet's ever seen, but you wield it like a kid that's found his dad's gun."

"Yeah, yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should."

Maybe the part about "not earning it for themselves" might not be accurate, but I feel the rest is.

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1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

"Yeah, yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should."

All told, the ancient Protoculture's story was about a rather different kind of hubris.

The Protoculture were absolutely the masters of what they created.  It feels more like a Cold War allegory, since the two rival Protoculture factions/governments were so invested in the differences in their ideologies that they achieved mutually-assured destruction rather than accept that they were more alike than different and resolve their differences through mutual understanding and communication.

To an engineer, though, the Protoculture's story reads a lot more like "we, as a civilization, never invented the FMEA".

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3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

All told, the ancient Protoculture's story was about a rather different kind of hubris.

The Protoculture were absolutely the masters of what they created.  It feels more like a Cold War allegory, since the two rival Protoculture factions/governments were so invested in the differences in their ideologies that they achieved mutually-assured destruction rather than accept that they were more alike than different and resolve their differences through mutual understanding and communication.

To an engineer, though, the Protoculture's story reads a lot more like "we, as a civilization, never invented the FMEA".

At least up until they lost control of the Evil-series bioweapons.

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  • 2 weeks later...
9 minutes ago, darkranger12 said:

 Saw this in a screenshot on facebook.  Is this a poorly rendered Macross model...?  It looks odd to be one. Like why doesn't it have the port and starboard armd docking stations.

newshiporpoormacrossrender.jpg

Yes, it's a very poorly rendered model of the SDF-1 Macross (TV version).

Because it was a bit of background decoration, they didn't fully model it... they just drew a vaguely rectilinear shape and then left most of the details in the texture they applied to the model.  You can see the docking stations absolutely are present in the texture, they just weren't modeled.  You can also clearly see the shape of the Prometheus textured onto the side of it complete with the red lower hull.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/macross/macross-side.gif

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yes, it's a very poorly rendered model of the SDF-1 Macross (TV version).

Because it was a bit of background decoration, they didn't fully model it... they just drew a vaguely rectilinear shape and then left most of the details in the texture they applied to the model.  You can see the docking stations absolutely are present in the texture, they just weren't modeled.  You can also clearly see the shape of the Prometheus textured onto the side of it complete with the red lower hull.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/macross/macross-side.gif

Wow I see the Prometheus now.   Well that's a bummer. I was thinking oooh new ship modeled after the sdf clas.

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