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3 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

That's like the worst punishment I can think of, to give him.

That, I think, was the idea... 

Isamu may have saved Earth from Sharon Apple, but he still caused a crapload of damage and broke a ton of regulations along the way.  In the final analysis, he...

  • Stole a next-generation prototype fighter from the New Edwards Test Flight Center
  • Stole a fold booster from the New Edwards Test Flight Center
  • Caused significant damage to the Shinsei Industry Project Super Nova hangar at New Edwards when he blew up the hangar doors
  • Racked up quite a bill in terms of the munitions expended in the Eden NUNS's attempt to intercept him and the munitions he himself stole
  • Destroyed several orbital weapons platforms in the Earth Defense Network
  • Caused significant damage to a number of buildings on Earth
  • Caused significant damage to the flying bridge of the SDF-1 Macross
  • Caused an enormous scandal and panic when the YF-19 was demonstrated to be independently capable of penetrating the most secure NUNS defense net in the galaxy, that prompted the New UN Government to issue severe arms export restrictions on 4th Generation VFs (angering Shinsei and General Galaxy)
  • Indirectly caused the total loss of the Sharon Apple system and AIF-X-9 Ghost prototype
  • Indirectly caused the total loss of the YF-21 No.2 prototype and its pilot, Specialist Guld Goa Bowman

Needless to say, the New UN Forces brass were NOT happy with Mr. Dyson... but were hard-pressed to punish him overtly for it since Col. Millard Johnson took responsibility for the entire incident and he had "saved the day".  Chaining him to a desk under the auspices of a promotion was a way to punish him in a way that would make him sit up and take notice while dressing it up as a reward for a job well done.

 

3 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Is "Colony grade" bad?

Arguably, yes...

The New UN Government has arms export restrictions on the weapons that can be sold to, or locally built under license by, the emigrant fleets and colony planets.  As a result, some of their versions of New UN Forces hardware are what are called "Monkey Models": export variants with inferior capabilities.  The first example explicitly acknowledged as such is the VF-19P from Macross Dynamite 7, but the term has been used more commonly since Macross the Ride, which introduced the Macross Frontier fleet's VF-19 monkey model VF-19EF Caliburn.

 

3 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

So basically. The bodies we see the proto-devlin using, are actually Protoculture made, like the Zentradi? So the proto-devlin like spirits that can permanently possess a body? 

Yeah.  The Protodeviln are energy beings inhabiting a line of prototype sentient biological superweapons... like autonomous early versions of the Birdhuman from Macross Zero.

(The Evil-series bioweapons that were possessed were partially modeled on Zentradi.)

They don't normally possess living beings... the seven energy beings who became the Protodeviln were accidentally drawn into the Evil-series bodies during a power test on a new form of dimensional energy conversion biotechnological reactor intended to power the Evil-series.  They were, essentially victims of the Protoculture's weapons programs.

 

3 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Also did Basara ever meet with Sivil again. or that's it from the end of M7?  I ask, since Gavil came back in the Frontier/Fire Bomber movie, or was that not cannon and just a fun side project? 

Not that we know?

 

3 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Is it because they were always in fold space energy, that they couldn't or more like took awhile to learn how to make there own energy to feed? Fricken Basara, helping protodevlin evolve, too better themselves and teaching space whales how to rock out and jam!

They went for the energy that was most similar to their normal food... the mental/emotional energy (spiritia) in the minds of living beings.  

Ironically, Macross 7 showed that they actually learned a fair bit from their original panicky attempt to keep themselves alive by rampaging across the galaxy.  Gepernich's goal was sustainable spiritia farming so they wouldn't need to attack huge swaths of the galaxy.

 

3 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Maybe it's the masochist in me, but now I want to read it, to see how terrible it is.:ph34r:

Don't.  Seriously.

 

3 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

What exactly is "Macross the Ride"? I bought a book off of ebay, and it had some very cool valk designs, but since I don't read nor understand Japanese, they looked like custom model kits to me and designs.

Macross the Ride, elsewise known as "Macross R", is a light novel that was serialized in twelve issues of Dengeki Hobby magazine in 2011.  The magazine also featured custom model kits for the various VFs in the story.

For all practical intents and purposes, Macross the Ride is a prequel-slash-side story to Macross Frontier.  It's set in the Macross Frontier fleet a year before the events of the series (in 2058), and the plot revolves around two things: a VF air racing league called Vanquish that is a very popular sport throughout the New UN Government's sphere of influence, and an attempt by a remnant of the Earth-supremacist group Latence (the baddies in Macross VF-X2) called FASCES to hijack one of the venues.

 

3 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Wow. I always felt Millard disliked Isamu and favored Guild more, but to take the blame. That's mighty big of him. Any info on him, after the Sharon Apple incident? 

None of which I am aware.  I would presume that, in typical Japanese fashion, he resigned from his post.

 

3 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Because of course he would!:lol::lol::lol:

That's his pretty girl.

That's what Jan said.

 

3 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Those are new variants, I've never heard of. What is different compared to the usual VF-19s? Or are they just upgrades to keep the 19 "up-to-date" like the VF-1X?

The VF-19E was an intermediate variant between the VF-19C and VF-19F... the record is sketchy on whether the VF-19E was a VF-19 1st Mass Production-type like the VF-19A or 2nd Mass Production-type like the VF-19F and VF-19S.  The only Macross title to directly feature a VF-19E is Macross 30, which showed it as a 1st Mass Production-type, though the -EF in the Macross the Ride light novel appears to be a 2nd Mass Production-type.

The VF-19EF Caliburn was a customized, locally-built derivative of the VF-19E the Macross Frontier fleet built in limited quantities for its local special forces and SMS.  It restored the canards and expanded the main wing, but had a number of built-in limiters on its performance.

 

3 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Goodluck. Mr. Neumann. Godspeed and goodluck.

A popular theory is that Dr. Neumann has a bit of a stress disorder because of Isamu.

 

3 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Do we know where Alto was during his time hanging out with the Vajra Queen? Or it's still up in the air?

I dunno.

Probably sharing his emotions with the Vajra Queen and all.

Or maybe... he likes big bugs and he cannot lie?  (I'll show myself out.)

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4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Or maybe... he likes big bugs and he cannot lie?  (I'll show myself out.)

Lol!

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16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Mechanic Sheet for his fighter in Sayonara no Tsubasa, the VF-19EF/A "Isamu Special", indicates that he tried to illegally buy a VF-19 for his own personal use and was foiled by Dr. Jan Neumann of Shinsei Industry, who instead fobbed him off with a modded VF-19EF Caliburn (Macross Frontier's VF-19E monkey model specification) under the pretense of it being a service life extension test program in order to keep Isamu from doing anything stupid/illegal.

Didn't Neumann also shake Isamu down for every penny he owned in exchange for all the trouble?

Something along the lines of "You are officially my test pilot, evaluating a service extension upgrade. Unofficially, you are going to empty your entire savings account, then cash out your retirement fund,  and wire every last cent of it to me for the hassle of creating this ridiculous kludge of an airplane that was custom-crippled with an obsolete and essentially unusable software package.", I believe?

 

This deal only went through because Isamu is the aviation equivalent of Basara. 

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15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That, I think, was the idea... 

Isamu may have saved Earth from Sharon Apple, but he still caused a crapload of damage and broke a ton of regulations along the way.  In the final analysis, he...

  • Stole a next-generation prototype fighter from the New Edwards Test Flight Center
  • Stole a fold booster from the New Edwards Test Flight Center
  • Caused significant damage to the Shinsei Industry Project Super Nova hangar at New Edwards when he blew up the hangar doors
  • Racked up quite a bill in terms of the munitions expended in the Eden NUNS's attempt to intercept him and the munitions he himself stole
  • Destroyed several orbital weapons platforms in the Earth Defense Network
  • Caused significant damage to a number of buildings on Earth
  • Caused significant damage to the flying bridge of the SDF-1 Macross
  • Caused an enormous scandal and panic when the YF-19 was demonstrated to be independently capable of penetrating the most secure NUNS defense net in the galaxy, that prompted the New UN Government to issue severe arms export restrictions on 4th Generation VFs (angering Shinsei and General Galaxy)
  • Indirectly caused the total loss of the Sharon Apple system and AIF-X-9 Ghost prototype
  • Indirectly caused the total loss of the YF-21 No.2 prototype and its pilot, Specialist Guld Goa Bowman

Needless to say, the New UN Forces brass were NOT happy with Mr. Dyson... but were hard-pressed to punish him overtly for it since Col. Millard Johnson took responsibility for the entire incident and he had "saved the day".  Chaining him to a desk under the auspices of a promotion was a way to punish him in a way that would make him sit up and take notice while dressing it up as a reward for a job well done.

You know.....It's a miracle he got off as easy as he did.:blink:

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Arguably, yes...

The New UN Government has arms export restrictions on the weapons that can be sold to, or locally built under license by, the emigrant fleets and colony planets.  As a result, some of their versions of New UN Forces hardware are what are called "Monkey Models": export variants with inferior capabilities.  The first example explicitly acknowledged as such is the VF-19P from Macross Dynamite 7, but the term has been used more commonly since Macross the Ride, which introduced the Macross Frontier fleet's VF-19 monkey model VF-19EF Caliburn.

So, what makes a immigrant fleet qualify for a "official" model vs a "monkey model"? Where the VF-19's and VF-22 from M7 "official" version? Are the VF-171 "monkey models"? And what is with the VF-171, its a striped down VF-17 right? I always thought of the VF-17 as an elite model from M7's Diamond force. 

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Ironically, Macross 7 showed that they actually learned a fair bit from their original panicky attempt to keep themselves alive by rampaging across the galaxy.  Gepernich's goal was sustainable spiritia farming so they wouldn't need to attack huge swaths of the galaxy.

So, I assume after the events of M7, all the protodevlin have went to a far, far isolated part of the universe .

 

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Don't.  Seriously.

That bad....This is like a horrible video on the web. You know, no good will come to you if you watch it, but regret and trauma, but you  still want to look.

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

For all practical intents None of which I am aware.  I would presume that, in typical Japanese fashion, he resigned from his post.

Do we know about Lucy? Do we know if she ended up with Isamu, or dated for awhile?  With that, do we know Myung's fate? Or Sharon Apple? She may have turned crazy, but that was do to her program being tampered with and corrupting her. But her/Myung's music (gotta love Info High)was great!

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's what Jan said.

Because! Of course he would! 

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The VF-19E was an intermediate variant between the VF-19C and VF-19F... the record is sketchy on whether the VF-19E was a VF-19 1st Mass Production-type like the VF-19A or 2nd Mass Production-type like the VF-19F and VF-19S.  The only Macross title to directly feature a VF-19E is Macross 30, which showed it as a 1st Mass Production-type, though the -EF in the Macross the Ride light novel appears to be a 2nd Mass Production-type.

The VF-19EF Caliburn was a customized, locally-built derivative of the VF-19E the Macross Frontier fleet built in limited quantities for its local special forces and SMS.  It restored the canards and expanded the main wing, but had a number of built-in limiters on its performance.

Could someone, who knows how, remove those said limiters and increasing there performance. Like on Isamu's 19, or other galaxy platform (monkey model), variants?

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Or maybe... he likes big bugs and he cannot lie?  (I'll show myself out.)

You sir, just made my day!!!

 

Edited by SkullLeaderVF-X

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12 hours ago, JB0 said:

Didn't Neumann also shake Isamu down for every penny he owned in exchange for all the trouble?

Something along the lines of "You are officially my test pilot, evaluating a service extension upgrade. Unofficially, you are going to empty your entire savings account, then cash out your retirement fund,  and wire every last cent of it to me for the hassle of creating this ridiculous kludge of an airplane that was custom-crippled with an obsolete and essentially unusable software package.", I believe?

Pretty much, yeah... Isamu had to foot the bill for the project, which wiped out his savings.

 

 

8 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

You know.....It's a miracle he got off as easy as he did.:blink:

There are easier ways to jump in front of a firing squad, but none quite so stylish as what he did.

 

8 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

So, what makes a immigrant fleet qualify for a "official" model vs a "monkey model"? Where the VF-19's and VF-22 from M7 "official" version? Are the VF-171 "monkey models"?

By all accounts, all emigrant fleet forces have been working with monkey models since the introduction of 4th Generation VFs... and possibly earlier.

One of the unintended/unexpected consequences of Isamu stealing the YF-19 No.2 prototype and using it to break through Earth's orbital defenses was that it caused the New UN Government to seriously reconsider its policies on exporting the latest weapons technology to the emigrant fleets and colonies.  There had been a sharp uptick in anti-government activity in the latter half of the 2030s, which Millard alluded to in the briefing where Isamu was introduced to the YF-19 and YF-21.  With tensions on the rise over whether the New UN Government should be a strong central government or devolve more authority to the individual member fleets/worlds, the New UN Government was understandably a little bit leery about the prospect of providing advanced weapons that were able to penetrate Earth's own defenses to the colonies where they could potentially end up in the hands of the anti-government factions and be used against the federal New UN Forces.

The solution the New UN Government hit on was to retain the full spec versions of new weapons for the federal forces and sell reduced capability versions to colony worlds and to emigrant fleets.  That way, if the federal New UN Forces had to step in and knock heads together to restore order or put down a fight between colonies they would always have an edge.  Other restrictions that were applied were mandated limits on the performance of locally-produced parts and limits on the numbers of certain VFs that could be produced in any one fleet or colonial defense force.

This also gave rise to local specifications of various fighters.  Various fleets would take the export variant specification they'd licensed and would make tweaks, adjustments, and an array of customizations to make it better suit their needs.  For instance, the Macross Frontier fleet made an improved derivative of the VF-19E monkey model spec that included an EX-Gear cockpit and other refinements and designated it VF-19EF Caliburn.  General Galaxy's subsidiary/sponsored fleet Macross Galaxy had its own enhanced VF-19C designated VF-19C/MG21 Excalibur.  (Normally, the originating fleet for the custom spec is appended after the variant letter or block number with a forward slash and the fleet's identification code.)

The VF-19s and VF-22s in Macross 7 were almost certainly monkey models, though the VF-19P used by the Zola Patrol is the only one for which the reductions in performance are explicitly identified.  There are tons of local variations of the VF-171 Nightmare Plus, so it's likely that it is technically a monkey model in that the Earth/Federal NUNS's ones likely benefit enormously from Earth's superior technology.  

 

8 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

And what is with the VF-171, its a striped down VF-17 right? I always thought of the VF-17 as an elite model from M7's Diamond force. 

Sort of?  After the New UN Government and New UN Forces put the kibosh on large-scale adoption of the VF-19 Excalibur due to tightened arms export restrictions and problems with controllability that were discovered during model conversion training by the Earth NUNS, the New UN Forces submitted a new RFP for a replacement with the same advanced features but less over-the-top performance that could reasonably replace the VF-11 Thunderbolt.  

General Galaxy started with the proven VF-17 Nightmare design and tried to economize it for mass production while incorporating the advances in tech that were made for the 4th Generation VFs.  They simplified the transformation, eliminated a few little-used options like the forearm beam guns, reworked its aerodynamics for better all-regime performance, and retooled it for better airframe versatility.  The initial (Block I) VF-171 was not quite as good as the VF-17D or -S, but by the Block II version seen in Macross Frontier and Macross Delta, the VF-171's performance exceeded the original VF-17's thanks to improved active stealth and avionics.  The VF-171 is noted to be incredibly versatile, able to easily be used for almost any role with minimal conversion work.

 

8 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

So, I assume after the events of M7, all the protodevlin have went to a far, far isolated part of the universe .

The surviving ones, yeah.

 

8 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

That bad....This is like a horrible video on the web. You know, no good will come to you if you watch it, but regret and trauma, but you  still want to look.

The Robotech II: the Sentinels novelization is generally regarded as being Star Wars Holiday Special levels of bad.

"Jack McKinney" (Luceno and Daley) wrote all those books like off-brand Star Wars mockbusters, but it got especially bad when they adapted Sentinels.

 

8 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Do we know about Lucy? Do we know if she ended up with Isamu, or dated for awhile?  With that, do we know Myung's fate? Or Sharon Apple? She may have turned crazy, but that was do to her program being tampered with and corrupting her. But her/Myung's music (gotta love Info High)was great!

Nothing, AFAIK.  Sharon Apple was destroyed by Isamu's final attack on the SDF-1 Macross, we see her "brain" explode when Isamu destroys the main computer.

The New UN Government was understandably more than slightly put out by what Sharon did, and legislated her music off the shelves until all responsive subroutines were removed and banned self-aware virtuoids altogether.  Sharon's music did make it back onto the shelves a while later with the responsive elements removed, but the damage was done and a fickle public had moved on.

 

8 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Could someone, who knows how, remove those said limiters and increasing there performance. Like on Isamu's 19, or other galaxy platform (monkey model), variants?

It'd take a LOT of work... some of the limiters are in software, some are hardware, some are simply local manufacturers not being able to produce parts at that full military spec.

Dr. Neumann and Shinsei Industry improved the performance of the VF-19EF Caliburn they customized for Isamu mainly through selective downgrades... reconfiguring the airframe for the VF-19A's less stable aerodynamic profile, downgrading the integrated airframe management AI to the initial build used on the YF-19 No.3 prototype and in so doing taking out most of the stability and safety improvements, etc.  Most of the fiddly stuff meant to make the VF-19 safer for average pilots was taken out so Isamu could leverage that insane lack of stability that caused the military to back down from adopting the VF-19 in the first place.

 

8 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

You sir, just made my day!!!

I'm not getting nearly the number of boos and hisses I expected for such a dreadful joke.

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10 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

That bad....This is like a horrible video on the web. You know, no good will come to you if you watch it, but regret and trauma, but you  still want to look.

Let me put it this way: at the time, I liked the Sentinels novels, and still felt End of the Circle was indefensible dreck.

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I slogged thru those novels back in the day. Needed massive decompression afterwards.

Even back then I wrote them off , as much as I really liked the idea of what they represented.

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I never said I had great taste in literature when I was younger. Heck, I'm not sure I'd say that now, though I'm more critical than I was twenty years ago. 

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8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Pretty much, yeah... Isamu had to foot the bill for the project, which wiped out his savings...

Well, at least he gets to....fly?:unknw:

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There are easier ways to jump in front of a firing squad, but none quite so stylish as what he did..

Well, if your going to go out, might as well go out with a "bang".....Like a literal world/galaxy changing "bang".

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

By all accounts, all emigrant fleet forces have been working with monkey models since the introduction of 4th Generation VFs... and possibly earlier.

One of the unintended/unexpected consequences of Isamu stealing the YF-19 No.2 prototype and using it to break through Earth's orbital defenses was that it caused the New UN Government to seriously reconsider its policies on exporting the latest weapons technology to the emigrant fleets and colonies.  There had been a sharp uptick in anti-government activity in the latter half of the 2030s, which Millard alluded to in the briefing where Isamu was introduced to the YF-19 and YF-21.  With tensions on the rise over whether the New UN Government should be a strong central government or devolve more authority to the individual member fleets/worlds, the New UN Government was understandably a little bit leery about the prospect of providing advanced weapons that were able to penetrate Earth's own defenses to the colonies where they could potentially end up in the hands of the anti-government factions and be used against the federal New UN Forces.

The solution the New UN Government hit on was to retain the full spec versions of new weapons for the federal forces and sell reduced capability versions to colony worlds and to emigrant fleets.  That way, if the federal New UN Forces had to step in and knock heads together to restore order or put down a fight between colonies they would always have an edge.  Other restrictions that were applied were mandated limits on the performance of locally-produced parts and limits on the numbers of certain VFs that could be produced in any one fleet or colonial defense force.

I can understand there reasoning for independent colony fleets, but even those that are NUNS colony fleets, like the M7 colony fleet? Or am I missing something?  I was always under the assumption, until Frontier, that all fleets were extensions of the NUNS government, and therefore would have access to all NUNS military support. And not nerfed monkey models.

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The VF-19s and VF-22s in Macross 7 were almost certainly monkey models, though the VF-19P used by the Zola Patrol is the only one for which the reductions in performance are explicitly identified. 

Am disappointed to hear that the VF-22's and 19's were nerfed monkey models, but think of what Max did in his. And then think of how much more bad ass he would have been in a full spec version!B))

Do we have a comparison chart or something that list the differences in the full spec versions of the VF-22's and 19's to their monkey model versions?

And on the same note, what was the difference from the regular VF-19 and the Zolan VF-19P?

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Robotech II: the Sentinels novelization is generally regarded as being Star Wars Holiday Special levels of bad.

"Jack McKinney" (Luceno and Daley) wrote all those books like off-brand Star Wars mockbusters, but it got especially bad when they adapted Sentinels.

 

7 hours ago, JB0 said:

Let me put it this way: at the time, I liked the Sentinels novels, and still felt End of the Circle was indefensible dreck.

 

7 hours ago, Bolt said:

I slogged thru those novels back in the day. Needed massive decompression afterwards.

Even back then I wrote them off , as much as I really liked the idea of what they represented.

Okay. You guys all convinced me. I was so close to buying the kindle versions from Amazon, but I'll avoid it.:lol:

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It'd take a LOT of work... some of the limiters are in software, some are hardware, some are simply local manufacturers not being able to produce parts at that full military spec.

Dr. Neumann and Shinsei Industry improved the performance of the VF-19EF Caliburn they customized for Isamu mainly through selective downgrades... reconfiguring the airframe for the VF-19A's less stable aerodynamic profile, downgrading the integrated airframe management AI to the initial build used on the YF-19 No.3 prototype and in so doing taking out most of the stability and safety improvements, etc.  Most of the fiddly stuff meant to make the VF-19 safer for average pilots was taken out so Isamu could leverage that insane lack of stability that caused the military to back down from adopting the VF-19 in the first place.

Could some entity overide some of the software, hardware downgrade issues like L.A.I? Or Galaxy Fleet? In a small number maybe? I would think there would still be ways around to get some VF's to full spec through other legal/illegal means or customization, pre Galaxy fleets betrayal.

Speaking of Galaxy Fleet, did we ever find out what happened to all the civilians on their island? Was General Galaxy part of the Galaxy fleet betrayal, or they had nothing to do with it. They were just a sponsor and had no real control? 

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm not getting nearly the number of boos and hisses I expected for such a dreadful joke.

Because, it was perfect. I now want to hear a  Sir-Mix-Alot Alto version rendition of "Big bugs":lol::lol::lol::lol:

With everything released so far, are we still in the dark about Shin and Sara. I really wish/head cannon, that they are together happily in love in a perfect Eden for them.

Edited by SkullLeaderVF-X

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20 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Well, at least he gets to....fly?:unknw:

Gets to fly a rough approximation of his favorite plane ever. If I recall, the whole point behind the initial "I am going to buy a plane on the black market/get Neumann to smuggle me out parts so I can build one" plan was that he's simply never enjoyed flying a plane as much as he did the cantankerously unstable, pilot-murdering YF-19, and he wanted to do it again.  It... says a lot about Isamu. 

 

23 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Am disappointed to hear that the VF-22's and 19's were nerfed monkey models, but think of what Max did in his. And then think of how much more bad ass he would have been in a full spec version!B))

The pilot makes the machine. Max and Millia could've rocked space in a pair of VF-17s, or VF-11s, or shoeboxes with fireworks glued to the back(the rare Super Shoebox configuration).  The 22 was just icing on the awesome cake.

And then there's  Gamlin's performance in Millia's VF-1J. He complained about how slow it was, struggled with the controls, and then got it completely destroyed, without ever firing a shot. NEVER FORGET. NEVER FORGIVE. 

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I've got a followup question to my inquiry about the VF-2SS not being able to mount it's gun pod in it's base fighter mode. I found this image of a VF-2SS with some kind of arm attachment that I've never seen before in this art here. Is this some kind of option part to allow the VF-2SS to store it's gun pod in fighter mode without the SAP?

Valkyrie2_VF-2SS_09.jpg

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5 hours ago, JB0 said:

Gets to fly a rough approximation of his favorite plane ever. If I recall, the whole point behind the initial "I am going to buy a plane on the black market/get Neumann to smuggle me out parts so I can build one" plan was that he's simply never enjoyed flying a plane as much as he did the cantankerously unstable, pilot-murdering YF-19, and he wanted to do it again.  It... says a lot about Isamu. 

Yes, that he is not only one of the best pilots, but also one of the craziest.....and an adrenaline junkie....Or he just likes a challenge.

 

5 hours ago, JB0 said:

The pilot makes the machine. Max and Millia could've rocked space in a pair of VF-17s, or VF-11s, or shoeboxes with fireworks glued to the back(the rare Super Shoebox configuration).  The 22 was just icing on the awesome cake.

True. Max and Millia can pretty much rock anything they pilot. And make it look good, even rare SSB configuration!:lol:

I still remember watching Hikaru piloting a spartan destroid and being amazed that he was able to handle some Zentran malcontents, at a time where I considered all spartans a connon fodder death trap.

5 hours ago, JB0 said:

And then there's  Gamlin's performance in Millia's VF-1J. He complained about how slow it was, struggled with the controls, and then got it completely destroyed, without ever firing a shot. NEVER FORGET. NEVER FORGIVE. 

Oh god. I forgot about that! She was sooo pissed! Her Valk (as well as Max's if he still has his) was a historical pivotal peice of space war 1 history. And Gamlin destroyed it.:mellow:

Is there like an official ranking of the best pilots, when comparing them to the Macross cannon as a whole? I would expect Max and Millia being in the top 5 if not 1 and 2 respectively, but imagine Guld in there to as well as Isamu,Basara and Roy and Hikaru.

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The top pilot spots are all Jenius family members, followed by other honorable mentions... Except maybe Mirage. I love her but she did not get the gene. Makes you wonder about her father, lol. 

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Just out of interest, do we know the names of Altos subordinate pilots in his NUNS 171 Squad? I cant recall them being mentioned and couldn't find the info when i looked.

 

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30 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

The top pilot spots are all Jenius family members, followed by other honorable mentions... Except maybe Mirage. I love her but she did not get the gene. Makes you wonder about her father, lol. 

I'm willing to give her a mulligan on that, owing to the horrendous writing quality of the show. The movie makes her out to be far more competent, but it's still based on the show, so... yeah.

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On 10/15/2018 at 12:16 AM, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Well, if your going to go out, might as well go out with a "bang".....Like a literal world/galaxy changing "bang".

Oh, granted... though I imagine rather a lot of people would have been happier if he hadn't taken an enormous chunk of the defense industry with him by screwing up adoption of the AIF-9, VF-19, and VF-22 and forcing the military to start over on 4th Gen VF development.

 

Quote

I can understand there reasoning for independent colony fleets, but even those that are NUNS colony fleets, like the M7 colony fleet? Or am I missing something?

No such animal... all emigrant fleets seen or mentioned thus far have been launched and governed under the auspices of the New UN Government.

The New UN Government was understandably concerned about letting full spec versions of its new excessively high-spec 4th Generation VFs out into the wild for three main reasons:

  • A fair amount of the fighting the New UN Forces were doing in that period was civil wars.  As the New UN Government's sphere of influence grew, the logistical difficulties of governing an area as vast as it technically encompassed gave rise to movements seeking greater autonomy for the colonies, secessionists, and armed conflicts between colonies.  With the federal NUNS periodically having to intervene and restore order, the last thing the brass wanted was to get there and have to fight a numerically superior force at technological parity with them.  To be effective, they needed an edge.
  • The discord in the colonies also frequently gave rise to armed anti-government and terrorist groups that were increasingly able to obtain military hardware via covert supporters or even outright theft.  Restrictions on export variants made any fighters that fell into hostile hands somewhat less capable, and restrictions on the number that could be produced made it a little easier to spot when one went "missing".
  • Some anti-government groups were able to develop their own advanced weapons based on stolen New UN Forces hardware with impressive results.  Sequestering the most advanced technology to prevent its theft was also a way to maintain the New UN Forces' edge over those enemies.

The New UN Government was arguably pretty much dead-on correct about the possibility of their own troops supplying arms and tech to anti-government groups... Macross Chronicle implies even Max may have been involved in covertly supporting the colonial autonomy movement.  Even after the whole autonomy movement came to a head and won out over the Earth-supremacists in what recent books are calling the Second Unification War, there are still plenty of civil wars and so on in the New UN Government's territory.  Kaname Buccaneer comes from a planet that is quite literally semi-perpetually at war with itself due to a strong Earth-supremacist movement there.

 

Quote

I was always under the assumption, until Frontier, that all fleets were extensions of the NUNS government, and therefore would have access to all NUNS military support. And not nerfed monkey models.

"NUNS" is the New UN Spacy, the New UN Government's Space Army.

 

Quote

Do we have a comparison chart or something that list the differences in the full spec versions of the VF-22's and 19's to their monkey model versions?

Alas, no.  Only a few specific examples where monkey models were prominently called out as such like the VF-19P and VF-19EF.

 

Quote

And on the same note, what was the difference from the regular VF-19 and the Zolan VF-19P?

Its engines were derated to increase its cruising range in space, limiters were imposed on some of its avionics, the modular ordnance bay in the legs was removed and replaced by a fixed pair of micro-missile launchers, and the target acquisition rate of its missile launchers was derated.

 

Quote

Could some entity overide some of the software, hardware downgrade issues like L.A.I? Or Galaxy Fleet? In a small number maybe? I would think there would still be ways around to get some VF's to full spec through other legal/illegal means or customization, pre Galaxy fleets betrayal.

It's theoretically possible, but it would be quite an undertaking and would likely require the support of the corporations who developed the hardware and software in the first place.  Companies that've got a vested interest in staying on the right side of the law.

There may be some pieces of tech that they simply can't replicate, either because they don't have its original spec or because they simply lack the technical know-how... like how the VF-24 is supposedly head and shoulders above the 5th Generation VFs based on its heavily redacted blueprints.

 

Quote

Speaking of Galaxy Fleet, did we ever find out what happened to all the civilians on their island?

The ending of Macross Frontier shows their Mainland module is still intact... the civilian population of cyborgs are all basically mind-controlled slaves of the galaxy executives though.

 

Quote

Was General Galaxy part of the Galaxy fleet betrayal, or they had nothing to do with it. They were just a sponsor and had no real control? 

General Galaxy itself doesn't seem to have been implicated in the Galaxy fleet's conspiracy, since the fleet was a semi-independent subsidiary.

 

Quote

With everything released so far, are we still in the dark about Shin and Sara. I really wish/head cannon, that they are together happily in love in a perfect Eden for them.

Shin and Sara pulled a Hikaru and Misa.  They're gone, and we'll likely never hear from them again.

 

On 10/15/2018 at 6:56 AM, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Oh god. I forgot about that! She was sooo pissed! Her Valk (as well as Max's if he still has his) was a historical pivotal peice of space war 1 history. And Gamlin destroyed it.:mellow:

I think she was more steamed off that it was her Valkyrie he destroyed... not for its historical value, but that it was hers.  He basically trashed her classic car.

 

Quote

Is there like an official ranking of the best pilots, when comparing them to the Macross cannon as a whole? I would expect Max and Millia being in the top 5 if not 1 and 2 respectively, but imagine Guld in there to as well as Isamu,Basara and Roy and Hikaru.

Nope.

 

On 10/15/2018 at 12:46 AM, JB0 said:

And then there's  Gamlin's performance in Millia's VF-1J. He complained about how slow it was, struggled with the controls, and then got it completely destroyed, without ever firing a shot. NEVER FORGET. NEVER FORGIVE. 

Gamlin's discontent was understandable enough.

Visual cues in Macross 7 point to Milia's VF-1J being a Block 4... a true 1st Generation VF without the refinements that were introduced from Block 6 and later.

The lowest performance fighter that Gamlin trained on was the VF-11C, fully two generations newer than the VF-1J-4 with much better performance and controls based on the refinements which were made in later VF-1 blocks.

I expect you'd hear similar carping if you asked a F/A-18 pilot to go fly an old F-104.

 

On 10/15/2018 at 2:49 AM, Karaoke Ninja said:

I've got a followup question to my inquiry about the VF-2SS not being able to mount it's gun pod in it's base fighter mode. I found this image of a VF-2SS with some kind of arm attachment that I've never seen before in this art here. Is this some kind of option part to allow the VF-2SS to store it's gun pod in fighter mode without the SAP?

Valkyrie2_VF-2SS_09.jpg

Promotional art for the Macross II OVA has a number of things which were not properly documented as they weren't actually used in the OVA itself.  

The few sources to depict the VF-2SS with a gunpod without its Super Armed Pack have always shown it with it mounted ventrally without any need for extra parts.

That forearm piece looks for all the world like the back half of the VF-2JA's heavy railgun.

 

 

On 10/15/2018 at 9:43 AM, Scream Man said:

Just out of interest, do we know the names of Altos subordinate pilots in his NUNS 171 Squad? I cant recall them being mentioned and couldn't find the info when i looked.

The other two members of Sagittarius Platoon have their names given only as "Jun" and "Maruyama".

Maruyama is the one with the Sheryl Nome paintjob on his VF-171EX, and even got a DX Chogokin because of it.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
Corrected block number for 3MCCS-2A.

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2 hours ago, Master Dex said:

Except maybe Mirage. I love her but she did not get the gene. Makes you wonder about her father, lol. 

I’m expecting her to be a late bloomer. And sometime in the future she will have her own unit to command and will have matured into her bad ass’ness..

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Yep. 

 

393B89E4-54D5-4EFB-A7F7-9DDE9731DE6F.jpeg

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3 hours ago, Bolt said:

I’m expecting her to be a late bloomer. And sometime in the future she will have her own unit to command and will have matured into her bad ass’ness..

Honestly, I doubt it.

Xaos is a small, underfunded, and woefully understaffed PMC that operates out in the space boonies to avoid having to compete for business against more capable outfits like SMS.  Even if they weren't also eyebrow-deep in red ink and likely in hot water after the government that contracted them as a supplement to its defence forces fell due to the very thing they were contracted to protect against, I don't see a lot of potential for upward mobility inside that (troubled) organization.

As much as I like Mirage as a character, being leapfrogged by Hayate in skill literally means she's the worst pilot in Delta Flight.  She doesn't have much in the way of prospects for advancement, even if she improves.  Transferring out to lead one of the other three flights would arguably be a demotion, and she'd be back to the bottom of the barrel if she went back to the NUNS or joined another PMC like SMS.

I think they'll stick to the idea that she's a subversion of the idea (in-universe and out) that being a Jenius automatically means you're an amazing pilot.

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10 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Honestly, I doubt it.

Dammit man , I’m a dreamer not a realist!

beam me outta here!

you always gotta kill my dreams with your logic and common sense!

Sounds like Xaos is a dead end job , time for her to move on!

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1 minute ago, Bolt said:

you always gotta kill my dreams with your logic and common sense!

The perils of a ruthlessly analytical mindset, I'm afraid... ^^;

 

1 minute ago, Bolt said:

Sounds like Xaos is a dead end job , time for her to move on!

... now that I think on it, you may be precisely right.

It's not something the show or supplemental publications talk about, but close to half of Macross Delta's main cast on the Xaos side are working there because a promising career elsewhere died a messy death.

  • Ernest Johnson ended up at Xaos after King Grammier VI let him go from his position as the Kingdom of the Wind's military advisor in 2060.  IIRC, in the novelization he'd ended up as a mercenary in the first place because the military revoked his commission due to him being a member of Latence.
  • Arad Molders ended up at Xaos after resigning his commission in the New UN Spacy over his guilt about the Windermere war of independence.  
  • Messer Ihlefeld ended up at Xaos after resigning his commission with the Aifheim NUNS over the trauma of realizing the destruction he'd caused after going Var during the Var riots there.
  • Mirage Jenius ended up at Xaos after resigning her commission in the New UN Spacy over her difficulties coping with guilt after participating in the suppression of an anti-government group that hijacked a colony ship.
  • Hayate Immelmann ended up at Xaos after being fired from his previous job on Al Shahal for skiving, because he had nowhere else to go.
  • Kaname Buccaneer ended up at Xaos after her career as a solo idol failed to take off and she was picked up for her fold receptor factor.
  • Reina Prowler ended up at Xaos because she's a "caged crook" who was given the choice of working there or going to prison after being caught hacking the company.

Chuck may or may not belong on that list... his statements about his own background suggest he may have been a NUNS soldier who quit after having to fight humans.  Mikumo's a clone who is more or less a slave, so she's not working there by choice.  Makina's status is uncertain.  Freyja is the only one we know of for whom Xaos was her #1 choice of employer.

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6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Promotional art for the Macross II OVA has a number of things which were not properly documented as they weren't actually used in the OVA itself.  

The few sources to depict the VF-2SS with a gunpod without its Super Armed Pack have always shown it with it mounted ventrally without any need for extra parts.

That forearm piece looks for all the world like the back half of the VF-2JA's heavy railgun.

Since you're the biggest Macross II fan on the board you wouldn't happen to have some art of this would you? I think you mentioned volume 79 of B-Club has something like this but I can't find it online.

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5 minutes ago, Karaoke Ninja said:

Since you're the biggest Macross II fan on the board you wouldn't happen to have some art of this would you? I think you mentioned volume 79 of B-Club has something like this but I can't find it online.

The biggest item on that list is the VF-XS Valkyrie II... a name/designation that was foisted on a few different designs for the OVA in the promotional materials that were published before Macross II's first episode was released.  (I sacrificed a few books from my personal collection to fill out the M3 site's Macross II line art, and Mr March hired an artist to redraw some of the art.)

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross2/vf-xs.htm

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross2/vf-xs-super.htm

The first design to receive that name/designation was Kazumi Fujita's original concept version of the VF-2SS, which had a more traditional-looking gunpod and set of FAST Packs. as well as a number of airbrakes.  The name was later applied to the design that would later be called the VF-2JA Icarus and later the VF-XX Zentradi Valkyrie before their final names were revealed.  Many moons ago I used to use a version of the VF-XS art crudely merged with the VF-2SS to create a new VF-2SS variant for an RPG I was running.

I've also got art for some alternate color schemes for the VF-XX and VF-2JA that weren't used in the OVA, like this white and red scheme that was used for a Macross calendar.  There's some art for the VF-2SS's landing gear as well, though that isn't undocumented so much as frequently-ignored by a host of official publications.  There are also a few tidbits here and there like an unused design for a pistol that was supposed to be Sylvie's sidearm.

post-2536-127660284967_thumb.jpg

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11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Oh, granted... though I imagine rather a lot of people would have been happier if he hadn't taken an enormous chunk of the defense industry with him by screwing up adoption of the AIF-9, VF-19, and VF-22 and forcing the military to start over on 4th Gen VF development.

I'am surprised he's not blackballed/banned to pilot ever again then. That's a complete game changer for the defense industry. That's still feeling it like how many years later?

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

No such animal... all emigrant fleets seen or mentioned thus far have been launched and governed under the auspices of the New UN Government.

Which is why, too me it felt wierd they wouldn't want to give their emigrant fleets the very be.......

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The New UN Government was understandably concerned about letting full spec versions of its new excessively high-spec 4th Generation VFs out into the wild for three main reasons:

  • A fair amount of the fighting the New UN Forces were doing in that period was civil wars.  As the New UN Government's sphere of influence grew, the logistical difficulties of governing an area as vast as it technically encompassed gave rise to movements seeking greater autonomy for the colonies, secessionists, and armed conflicts between colonies.  With the federal NUNS periodically having to intervene and restore order, the last thing the brass wanted was to get there and have to fight a numerically superior force at technological parity with them.  To be effective, they needed an edge.
  • The discord in the colonies also frequently gave rise to armed anti-government and terrorist groups that were increasingly able to obtain military hardware via covert supporters or even outright theft.  Restrictions on export variants made any fighters that fell into hostile hands somewhat less capable, and restrictions on the number that could be produced made it a little easier to spot when one went "missing".
  • Some anti-government groups were able to develop their own advanced weapons based on stolen New UN Forces hardware with impressive results.  Sequestering the most advanced technology to prevent its theft was also a way to maintain the New UN Forces' edge over those enemies.

...Ahhhh. Makes perfect sense. I can't help but feel, its like/similar to how American colonialists rebelled against the British in the revolutionary war. There all the way on earth, and the colonies are all in galaxies far, far away. So the idea of being more independent. And not having to check in with big brother all the time and pay their dues, makes sense.

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The New UN Government was arguably pretty much dead-on correct about the possibility of their own troops supplying arms and tech to anti-government groups... Macross Chronicle implies even Max may have been involved in covertly supporting the colonial autonomy movement.  Even after the whole autonomy movement came to a head and won out over the Earth-supremacists in what recent books are calling the Second Unification War, there are still plenty of civil wars and so on in the New UN Government's territory.  Kaname Buccaneer comes from a planet that is quite literally semi-perpetually at war with itself due to a strong Earth-supremacist movement there.

What!? Really? Max? What was it alluded too?

What were the benefits of autonomy, compared to staying with the UN Government?  And was the UN Government bad at providing,protecting and supporting the emigrant colonies, that alot, including some UN Government/Spacy personnel, even supported autonomy? I mean calling it a Second Unification war sounds serious, considering how bad the First Unification wars were.And now that autonomy movement won out, what's changed for the both the UN Government and the emigrant fleets?

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

"NUNS" is the New UN Spacy, the New UN Government's Space Army.

Sorry. I always see "UN Spacy" plastered everywhere, so I just use it for all branches of the UN Government, even though I know there a branch. I apologize.

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Alas, no.  Only a few specific examples where monkey models were prominently called out as such like the VF-19P and VF-19EF.

Man, that sucks. I'd love to see the comparisons, between the full spec and monkey models.:unsure:

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There may be some pieces of tech that they simply can't replicate, either because they don't have its original spec or because they simply lack the technical know-how... like how the VF-24 is supposedly head and shoulders above the 5th Generation VFs based on its heavily redacted blueprints.

Oohh!? Do we have any info on the VF-24 superior technology and capabilities vs the 5th generation VFs?

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Shin and Sara pulled a Hikaru and Misa.  They're gone, and we'll likely never hear from them again.

I figured as much. I just hope there happy together.  When Shin finally got through to Sarah, I was happy, then saddened when everything happen at the end of the end and Sarah folded. Then left wondering if Shin went to were Sarah was when he folded. Which makes me wonder. How was Shin able to fold? His Valkyrie was pretty much done in.

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I think she was more steamed off that it was her Valkyrie he destroyed... not for its historical value, but that it was hers.  He basically trashed her classic car.

I meant that too. That was her baby.:lol::lol::lol:

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Gamlin's discontent was understandable enough.

Visual cues in Macross 7 point to Milia's VF-1J being a Block 4... a true 1st Generation VF without the refinements that were introduced from Block 5 and later.

The lowest performance fighter that Gamlin trained on was the VF-11C, fully two generations newer than the VF-1J-4 with much better performance and controls based on the refinements which were made in later VF-1 blocks.

How many different blocks are there? What are the differences/improvements/changes?

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

post-2536-127660284967_thumb.jpg

Mmmmmmmm......Ishtar......:wub:

I wish there was a way to bring her into the main Macross cannon. Like how they did with some of Macross II 's songs.

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14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I think they'll stick to the idea that she's a subversion of the idea (in-universe and out) that being a Jenius automatically means you're an amazing pilot.

Im not 100% sure I agree with that.
My read on Mirage was that she was an excellent pilot, but not as good as many others because of the pressure she was under from herself and others because of her name and heritage. Messer told her she was too 'By the book" or some such I think. I think by the end of the series we have seen a Mirage who has loosened up a lot and learned to stand on her own feet and for who she is. I wouldn't be surprised to learn she went on to great things. Maybe she will never be as good as her Grandparents, but I think she would be an excellent pilot in her own right. 

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3 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

How many different blocks are there? What are the differences/improvements/changes?

The biggest is that the cockpit was completely reworked for block five. Block five introduced the DYRL-style cockpit, with the flip-up throttle for mode change instead of three joysticks and a bunch of extra levers poking out in random places.  That seems to be the standard control scheme for almost all subsequent VFs.

 

19 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The lowest performance fighter that Gamlin trained on was the VF-11C, fully two generations newer than the VF-1J-4 with much better performance and controls based on the refinements which were made in later VF-1 blocks.

I expect you'd hear similar carping if you asked a F/A-18 pilot to go fly an old F-104.

He shouldn't have stolen her plane, then. :P

 

 

As far as ranking pilots goes, Max did say Basara was almost as good as he was. But then, Max also underestimated his own skill level during the war. Maybe getting hitched to the zentradi ace bombshell after repeatedly equaling or besting her made him re-evaluate his own talents, because he did realize that 7 fleet was better served with him in a fighter jet than on the bridge in moments of dire crisis. ("Hi guys, I'm just gonna blast past all of you with my throttle open to full and nuke Gepelnitch in his eyeball. You can stand back and eat my reactor exhaust. Captain's orders.")

Edited by JB0

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16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Chuck may or may not belong on that list... his statements about his own background suggest he may have been a NUNS soldier who quit after having to fight humans.  Mikumo's a clone who is more or less a slave, so she's not working there by choice.  Makina's status is uncertain.  Freyja is the only one we know of for whom Xaos was her #1 choice of employer.

From the series and movie iirc Makina explains she joined Walkure because she was scouted for her fold receptors but she still wanted to work on planes like her family does. 

Walkure allows her to kind of do this. Since in the series she and Reina are messing with those barrier boomerangs after the Knights soundly frakked with them early in the series and there are a few shots of her hanging with the deck crews. So it more like Xaos offered her a job that got her close to what she wants, just not exactly there.

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6 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

I'm surprised he's not blackballed/banned to pilot ever again then. That's a complete game changer for the defense industry. That's still feeling it like how many years later?

Isamu's one-man air raid on Macross City had knock-on effects that are still being felt almost thirty years later.

Sharon Apple going berserk (partly because of Isamu) caused the New UN Forces to reevaluate the stability and safety of the new artificial intelligence technology the Macross Concern developed for the AIF-9.  In the short term, it basically killed the New UN Forces' plans to transition to unmanned fighters stone dead.  It also resulted in the deliberate crippling of unmanned fighter AIs to ensure a similar berserk incident would never occur again, indirectly resulting in the AIF-7 Ghosts the NUNS was using in Macross Frontier.

The political fallout of the YF-19 and YF-21 independently breaking through Earth's orbital defense network administered the coup de grace to the New UN Spacy's plans to adopt the VF-19, handing victory in Project Super Nova to General Galaxy for the VF-171 after trial production had begun on the VF-19.  Arguably the New UN Government's refusal to share the full spec VF-24 could even be chalked up to that, resulting in the emigrant fleets having to develop their own new fighters using redacted versions of the specs or buying monkey models.

"Nice job breaking it, hero" doesn't begin to cover it.

 

6 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

...Ahhhh. Makes perfect sense. I can't help but feel, its like/similar to how American colonialists rebelled against the British in the revolutionary war. There all the way on earth, and the colonies are all in galaxies far, far away. So the idea of being more independent. And not having to check in with big brother all the time and pay their dues, makes sense.

We get a bit of a look at this kind of problem in Macross M3Macross Digital Mission VF-XMacross VF-X2, and Macross R when it comes to the kind of problems that can be caused when terrorists or anti-government forces get their hands on New UN Forces hardware.

 

6 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

What!? Really? Max? What was it alluded too?

Macross Chronicle drops a hint/suggestion that Mariafokina Barnrose, the de facto leader of the pro-autonomy militarized group Vindirance, is actually Therese Jenius operating under an alias and with the covert assistance of her father.

Vindirance is only nominally an anti-government group... in truth, the organization was more like a proxy the pro-autonomy faction was using to oppose governmental and military overreach by the Earth-supremacist faction Latence, who wanted to transfer more authority to the central gov't and military.  A fair portion of Macross VF-X2's plot is the VF-X Ravens being manipulated by Latence's members in the NUNS brass to wipe out armed anti-Latence organizations like Black Rainbow and Vindirance.

 

6 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

What were the benefits of autonomy, compared to staying with the UN Government?  And was the UN Government bad at providing,protecting and supporting the emigrant colonies, that alot, including some UN Government/Spacy personnel, even supported autonomy? I mean calling it a Second Unification war sounds serious, considering how bad the First Unification wars were.And now that autonomy movement won out, what's changed for the both the UN Government and the emigrant fleets?

The pro-autonomy group didn't want to leave the New UN Government... they just wanted colonies to have more authority to govern their own internal affairs.  Think of it as the spacefuture version of that old "States rights vs. Federal rights" issue that US politics has been chewing over for nearly 250 years now.

The problem, as Kawamori described it, was essentially that the mechanics of space fold being what they were, the New UN Government in its strong centralized government form just wasn't up to the challenge of micromanaging affairs of state on colony worlds that were ten years away by fold.  The result was an ideological split:

  • One faction (Latence) favored maintaining the strong central government and giving Earth and the New UN Forces more authority over the colonies.  They argued that the only way humanity would survive would be to present a united front against threats like the Zentradi.
  • The other faction (Vindirance) wanted to bow to practicality and have the central government devolve more authority to the individual colonial governments.  They argued that it would be more effective for the local governments to make their own judgement calls on the little stuff because of the time lag in long-range communications with Earth.

Macross VF-X2's conclusion was basically the centerpiece of the Second Unification War... when the forces loyal to the Latence faction launched a coup against the New UN Government using Macross 13 to seize power in the Sol system.

The New UN Government's reorganization took it from being something like the US federal gov't to something more like the European Union.  They also put more controls on the New UN Forces as a way to prevent the military from abusing its authority the way it had done under Latence.

 

6 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Oohh!? Do we have any info on the VF-24 superior technology and capabilities vs the 5th generation VFs?

Alas, no... all we know of the VF-24 is that the YF-24 Evolution was approved for adoption as the 5th Generation VF of Earth and the federal New UN Forces in 2057.  It must be pretty incredible, given it was deemed too awesome to share with the colonies, who got heavily redacted versions of its specs to build their own VFs from and the YF-29 is said to have been an effort to exceed its performance.

 

6 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Which makes me wonder. How was Shin able to fold? His Valkyrie was pretty much done in.

Blame the Birdhuman... in hindsight, that was pretty obviously a zero-time fold effect, and humanity didn't have that technology until at least 2059, so it'd have to have been the Birdhuman.

 

6 hours ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

How many different blocks are there? What are the differences/improvements/changes?

I actually cited the wrong block number there.  Somehow, I always turn first to the page with the typo in This is Animation: Macross Plus.  Mea culpa.  Mea maxima f***ing culpa.  That 5 should be a 6.

I don't believe there's been an official canon statement as to the total number of production blocks the VF-1 had.  Variable Fighter Master File says VF-1 mass production included 17 blocks.  (AFAIK, the only other VF with officially-stated block numbers is the VF-171, which uses block numbers inspired by the F/A-18.)

The only set of differences that's discussed in depth in an official source is the difference between Blocks 1-5 and Blocks 6 and later, AKA the TV and Movie versions.  The most obvious change was they totally retooled the cockpit, consolidating the controls to a true HOTAS setup, replacing that three-panel main monitor with a single hexagonal display, replacing the conventional HUD with a holographic on-canopy projection system, and installing a new ejection seat.  Other updates also included the new, squarer hand design and a higher maximum engine output of 240% maximum rated power (as visible on the throttle lever graphics).  Block 6 and later were also where the VT-1 replaced the VF-1D and the VE-1 replaced the VEFR-1.  Canonically, though not onscreen, Block 6 entered service before the ending of the First Space War and many of the VFs on the ARMDs that were up in Earth orbit when Boddole Zer razed the planet were Block 6.

Variable Fighter Master File throws another unofficial one in there, asserting that Blocks 6-8 swapped the FF-2001 engines for a newer model designated FF-2006.

(Master File has a rather long, non-canon list of block differences for all 17 blocks.)

 

 

3 hours ago, Scream Man said:

Im not 100% sure I agree with that.
My read on Mirage was that she was an excellent pilot, but not as good as many others because of the pressure she was under from herself and others because of her name and heritage.

She literally ran away from the NUNS because she was only a mediocre pilot who couldn't stand the pressure of the expectations on her as a result of the family legacy.

One of the first things we see of her is that she's not even as good as the other members of Delta Flight, missing the timing on their rehearsed airshow... which Hayate calls her on in episode 2.  She gets called on her mediocre performance several times in the series by Messer, who even tells her flat-out she's not a good enough pilot to attempt non-lethal takedowns on Var-infected friendlies.

Unfortunately we never get to see her measure her skills against an actual experienced pilot... she's only shown to be moderately effective against Var-infected local NUNS troops, and they're a bush league outfit flying decades-old fighters.  The Aerial Knights were all combat virgins prior to their attack on Al Shahal in episode 1, so they're no fair indicator either.

 

1 hour ago, Focslain said:

From the series and movie iirc Makina explains she joined Walkure because she was scouted for her fold receptors but she still wanted to work on planes like her family does. 

The question being... was she at some other organization trying to become a mechanic prior to that?

 

1 hour ago, Focslain said:

Since in the series she and Reina are messing with those barrier boomerangs after the Knights soundly frakked with them early in the series and there are a few shots of her hanging with the deck crews. So it more like Xaos offered her a job that got her close to what she wants, just not exactly there.

That's one of the things I don't really buy about her character.

She's allegedly the head mechanic on the Aether according to her bio... but we never see her actually do anything.  The few things she allegedly created for Walkure are, to those who paid attention, just worse versions of off-the-shelf technology used by characters in previous shows (like Sheryl Nome).

It's the same situation as Reina allegedly being a super-hacker despite being so bad at her job that she mostly only succeeds when the enemy lets her, and is foiled by a simple electronic door lock.  A bio that writes a check the show can't cash.

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41 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The question being... was she at some other organization trying to become a mechanic prior to that?

I'd have to re-watch the scenes to see if she makes mention. But placing my money on that Walkure was her first real job.

42 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's one of the things I don't really buy about her character.

She's allegedly the head mechanic on the Aether according to her bio... but we never see her actually do anything.  The few things she allegedly created for Walkure are, to those who paid attention, just worse versions of off-the-shelf technology used by characters in previous shows (like Sheryl Nome).

It's the same situation as Reina allegedly being a super-hacker despite being so bad at her job that she mostly only succeeds when the enemy lets her, and is foiled by a simple electronic door lock.  A bio that writes a check the show can't cash.

I didn't buy her being head mechanic anyway, not with her holding an idol career. If the bios were written as a semi in universe bio then her being listed as the head mechanic would just be on paper and to give her more depth to her abilities then just singing and dancing to the fans. Same goes for Reina, why just be a hacker when being a Super hacker is way cooler.

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The political fallout of the YF-19 and YF-21 independently breaking through Earth's orbital defense network administered the coup de grace to the New UN Spacy's plans to adopt the VF-19, handing victory in Project Super Nova to General Galaxy for the VF-171 after trial production had begun on the VF-19.  Arguably the New UN Government's refusal to share the full spec VF-24 could even be chalked up to that, resulting in the emigrant fleets having to develop their own new fighters using redacted versions of the specs or buying monkey models.

"Nice job breaking it, hero" doesn't begin to cover it.

Of course, the the VF-19 debacle could easily be seen as the Sharon Apple Incident being used as a cover for an early power-grab by the Earth-supremacist factions.  I mean, we keep hearing the story of how the YF-19 and YF-21 penetrated Earth's orbital defenses, yet nothing of the sort actually happens in Macross Plus.   The YF-19 is picked up within seconds of defold, but the only thing they have to deal with are the random remote cannons floating around.  No fighters are ever scrambled, no intercept missiles are ever launched, and those defense satellites don't even try to defend themselves.  Because Isamu didn't penetrate Earth's defenses.  Earth's defenses were taken down by Sharon and she let Isamu (and Guld) get to the surface so she could show him a good time with the Ghost.   It's the same reason that once they were in the atmosphere and having their heart-to-heart dogfight conversation, they weren't interrupted by several hundred VF-11s coming to ask "Hey, what the frakk?"

IE:  It's kinda a clunky retcon to explain why the "hero units" of Macross Plus aren't the "cannon fodder" of Macross Frontier.  Explaining it away as a conspiracy hiding Earth's actual vulnerability (Virtual Idols hackers), or as an excuse to deny tech to the colonies, is really the only way to make sense of it.

 

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6 minutes ago, Sailor Arashi said:

I mean, we keep hearing the story of how the YF-19 and YF-21 penetrated Earth's orbital defenses, yet nothing of the sort actually happens in Macross Plus.   The YF-19 is picked up within seconds of defold, but the only thing they have to deal with are the random remote cannons floating around.  No fighters are ever scrambled, no intercept missiles are ever launched, and those defense satellites don't even try to defend themselves.

The YF-19's defold was detected, true... but we see Sharon Apple send the defense grid to its highest readiness level1, and it could easily be argued that the YF-19's possession of a valid friendly IFF code and prototype 3rd Generation active stealth system did a lot of the heavy lifting, preventing the grid from firing on him until he attacked it first and working with the debris he created to prevent missile stations and gun satellites from establishing a positive lock until he reached an altitude where their programming forbade firing.

 

6 minutes ago, Sailor Arashi said:

Because Isamu didn't penetrate Earth's defenses.  Earth's defenses were taken down by Sharon and she let Isamu (and Guld) get to the surface so she could show him a good time with the Ghost.

Sharon didn't have full control of Earth's defenses until well after Isamu's reentry started though...

 

6 minutes ago, Sailor Arashi said:

It's the same reason that once they were in the atmosphere and having their heart-to-heart dogfight conversation, they weren't interrupted by several hundred VF-11s coming to ask "Hey, what the frakk?"

That wouldn't have been possible even if the pilots weren't hypnotized.  

Both the YF-19 and YF-21 were equipped with prototype 3rd Generation active stealth systems.  As we saw when Isamu was flying a VF-11B as a chase plane during one of Guld's tests earlier on, that prototype system was capable of rendering the fighter equipped with it invisible to a previous-gen radar system even at a range of only a few dozen meters.  If its capabilities were similar to its mass production spec, it was also effective against ground- and ship-based radar systems at range.  The YF-19 and YF-21 were, for all practical intents and purposes, invisible to everything but each other and the orbit-based camera and LIDAR systems.

 

6 minutes ago, Sailor Arashi said:

IE:  It's kinda a clunky retcon to explain why the "hero units" of Macross Plus aren't the "cannon fodder" of Macross Frontier.  Explaining it away as a conspiracy hiding Earth's actual vulnerability (Virtual Idols hackers), or as an excuse to deny tech to the colonies, is really the only way to make sense of it.

Funnily enough, it's more like the coup de grace than the main reason.

The same fundamental instability of control that made the YF-19 such an impressive specimen and had caused a number of crashes during testing (both simulated and actual), proved to be the most insurmountable obstacle to adopting the VF-19.  When the NUNS started to introduce the VF-19A, they found out pretty fast that a fighter that sorely tests the abilities of the finest test pilots was an absolute nightmare for the rank-and-file to fly.  There were a large number of incidents were pilots lost control of the VF-19, which combined with its high cost of operation, caused the NUNS to just throw up their hands and admit they needed something a bit less insane.

Having the New UN Government waltz in and say "even if you fix this, we're still putting some very strict restrictions on exports" probably had Shinsei thinking "Et tu, Brute" awful loud.  All the same, Shinsei invested a fair amount of time on trying to resolve the control problems, resulting in them developing the 2nd mass production type, starting from the VF-19F.

(As an explanation for the VF-171, it meshes rather neatly with what we saw in Plus and 7 regarding the difficulties these fighters posed for even elite test pilots and special forces aces.)

 

1. In an acknowledged error, the readiness level is given as "DEFCON 5".  Many writers mistake DEFCON 5 for the highest level because it has the biggest number, when in reality DEFCON 1 is the highest readiness level... particularly writers who aren't American.

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8 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Sharon didn't have full control of Earth's defenses until well after Isamu's reentry started though...

Her locking out the entire defense grid happens before Isamu even destroys the satellites, hence the scene in the Macross bridge where they're freaking out about being locked out and the system going to DEFCON 1 5 before we cut back to the YF-19 to see them reacting to the defense systems coming online.   The remote cannons turn to target Isamu before he attacks the satellites as well.  It's the remote satellites targeting them that compels Neumann to go with the "Well, they know we're here, let's blow stuff up and hide in the debris" strategy in the first place.   Sharon then gives a big speech to Myung about how Isamu will "be here soon" telling us that she's just toying with him with the remote satellites, and intends to personally kill him as shown later.

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Both the YF-19 and YF-21 were equipped with prototype 3rd Generation active stealth systems. 

The buildings they're blowing up in the course of their heartfelt reunion are equipped with zero (0) 3rd Generation active stealth systems ;)  Likewise the fact that there's a giant dogfight with explosions and flares and lasers and gunpods going off and nobody comes to see whats up even before they take it into the city really can't be explained by the active stealth system.

19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The same fundamental instability of control that made the YF-19 such an impressive specimen and had caused a number of crashes during testing (both simulated and actual), proved to be the most insurmountable obstacle to adopting the VF-19.  When the NUNS started to introduce the VF-19A, they found out pretty fast that a fighter that sorely tests the abilities of the finest test pilots was an absolute nightmare for the rank-and-file to fly.  There were a large number of incidents were pilots lost control of the VF-19, which combined with its high cost of operation, caused the NUNS to just throw up their hands and admit they needed something a bit less insane.

All of this was written after Macross Plus as explanation for why we don't see VF-19s everywhere, though.  That's exactly my point.  The YF-19 being hard to control isn't unusual in experimental airframes.  Isamu's role in the project is to be good enough to fly it despite it being an untested system that previous test pilots weren't good enough to control, and then provide feedback to make it more accessible to people who aren't as good as he is.  That's more or less the point of the montage in the 2nd OAV where we see the tests under-weigh, engineers making adjustments to the YF-19, him arguing with Yan, the YF-19 graph passing the YF-21 graph, etc.  He's helping to refine the airframe and flight controls to make it suitable for general use.  That's what test pilots do.

Again, the entire reason for the "Earth restricts the best tech" plot existing is that Kawamori didn't think we'd buy the Macross Plus designs serving a cannon fodder role.  None of this is actually presented on-screen.

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28 minutes ago, Sailor Arashi said:

Again, the entire reason for the "Earth restricts the best tech" plot existing is that Kawamori didn't think we'd buy the Macross Plus designs serving a cannon fodder role.  None of this is actually presented on-screen.

.....yes? Is this board not full of knowledgeable nerds who have extra-screen knowledge?

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