Macross Plus - interpretations of the ending

[Rabidweezil]

This thread seems less like a discussion about the scene and more about focusing on a rape that, other then the OP, no one seems to think actually took place.

Should have just made a poll....

"Did Guld rape Myung. Yes, no, don't care

/thread

[Nicaragua]

This thread seems less like a discussion about the scene and more about focusing on a rape that, other then the OP, no one seems to think actually took place.

Should have just made a poll....

"Did Guld rape Myung. Yes, no, don't care

/thread

Actually if you look through the various comments then its about 40/60 of people who seem open to the idea that it could have been rape/attempted rape .

To me personally it may or may not be rape/attempted rape and im not going to claim I know more than what the script writer intended me to know. In fact if you look at my original post then the rape/attempted rape/attack/whatever is only a fraction of my question, but yet everyone seems to want to talk about rape.

Still if your bored of the whole rape/not rape debate then how about you offer your own thoughts on the original question rather than wasting your time reading threads just to write dismissive comments at the end of them?

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually if you look through the various comments then its about 40/60 of people who seem open to the idea that it could have been rape/attempted rape .

I know I'm a bit late in weighing in on this one, but better late than never... right?

Personally, I don't think there's a single piece of evidence that could possibly support the conclusion that Guld raped, or was trying to rape, Myung. It's pretty much beyond dispute that Guld had one hell of a temper, and that at least part of his anger management problems had their roots in his hybrid physiology. The "complete" flashback we see when Guld fires on Isamu and Myung leaves no room for the rape hypothesis.

Unless you're suggesting that Myung took the time to obligingly put her torn top and her pants back on after Guld finished and Isamu just sat there and watched after being punched once, then rape is right out. That it might be attempted rape is equally silly, for the same reasons. Isamu was right there and clearly still had has wits about him since he was able to rush to her aid immediately. The actual substance of Guld's final memory sequence there shows him seeing Isamu with Myung, completely losing his sh*t (out of jealousy, presumably), attacking Isamu first, then going after Myung, then seeing himself in the mirror, having an "oh sh*t" moment, then legging it.

To me personally it may or may not be rape/attempted rape and im not going to claim I know more than what the script writer intended me to know. In fact if you look at my original post then the rape/attempted rape/attack/whatever is only a fraction of my question, but yet everyone seems to want to talk about rape.

Hey, you're the one who posted about it first, referring to it as "the rape scene" as though there was no question that was what it was... I think you've long since forfeited the right to complain.

To address your actual question, no... that we only ever see Guld's incomplete recollections of the event until he thinks he's killed Isamu would seem to indicate that he doesn't really remember what happened. It appeared to be a source of intense psychological trauma for him (enough that it consistently caused him problems), and that would seem to argue in favor of him blocking out significant portions of the memory as a coping mechanism. He seemed to genuinely think Isamu was the one responsible, which does seem to point towards him repressing all memory of his involvement in it.

Given their behavior when discussing Myung later in life, I'd wager the motivation for Guld going ape sh*t and attacking Isamu and Myung was probably something along the lines of "You're my best friend, how could you screw around with the girl you know I like behind my back?!". After the fact, Guld did explicitly treat it like the two of them were competing over her (even referring to it as such at one point), and like he had "won".

[Nicaragua]

Unless you're suggesting that Myung took the time to obligingly put her torn top and her pants back on after Guld finished and Isamu just sat there and watched after being punched once, then rape is right out. That it might be attempted rape is equally silly, for the same reasons. Isamu was right there and clearly still had has wits about him since he was able to rush to her aid immediately. The actual substance of Guld's final memory sequence there shows him seeing Isamu with Myung, completely losing his sh*t (out of jealousy, presumably), attacking Isamu first, then going after Myung, then seeing himself in the mirror, having an "oh sh*t" moment, then legging it.

Im suggesting that Guld could have punched Isamu out cold (yes in one punch, watch any number of boxing/UFC highlight videos and see just how often it happens), then rapes/attempted rapes Myung, then afterwards she puts her clothes back on (I've heard rape victims do that rather than spend the rest of their lives naked). Thats what im suggesting MIGHT have happened.

Hey, you're the one who posted about it first, referring to it as "the rape scene" as though there was no question that was what it was... I think you've long since forfeited the right to complain..

Well of course I’m going to refer to it as “the rape scene” – If I interpret the scene one way, and am looking to describe the scene as part of a larger question, with no foreknowledge of people having a different interpretation of the scene than my own, then how the hell else am I going to refer to that scene??? If id have known it was going to cause such a calamity then I would have referred to it as the “nudge nudge, wink wink, naughty boobies” scene. Anyway I have no issue talking about the attack/rape/whatever so im not complaining, i was simply addressing Rabidweezils point that i should have just started with a poll.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on the original question.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Nicaragua

[Seto Kaiba]

Im suggesting that Guld could have punched Isamu out cold , then rapes/attempted rapes Myung, then afterwards she puts her clothes back on

Granted, it's be a nice theory of the animation or story supported it in any way... or at least if the animation of the OVA/movie didn't completely rule it out by showing us that the events of that flashback happened in quick succession. There's no real ambiguity there... not even the tiniest implication that there was any intention of sexual assault, let alone the actual act.

Thanks for your thoughts on the original question.

No problem...

[anime52k8]

I think the key piece of evidence we need to take into consideration here is that this is an anime. When do situations like this NOT result in rape in anime? So clearly Guld raped her.

As for OP's question, I think Roy Focker was on to something a page back. What really happened is that Guld was secretly in love with Isamu, and when he walked in on the two of them together he flew into a rage. Not at Isamu for stealing his girl though, but rather Myung for stealing his man, and Isamu for choosing a woman over him.

So he smacked Isamu and attacked Myung. It's at this point something in his mind completely snapped, and he came to the conclusion that it was his fault for being gay, and decided to from then on deny his homosexuality. From there he raped Myung and reworked the memory in his mind such that he was always after Myung and Isamu was trying to steal her away, rather than the other way around.

From then on, he lived with the delusion that he was always the heterosexual male that had his girl stolen by his best friend. It was only at the moment where he thought he had killed his friend and love interest that Guld realized he had been living a lie all this time. In that moment he embraced his Homosexuality and came to the realization that Isamu is his own man, and guld can't make Isamu change who he is no matter how much Guld wishes he could.

Having accepted both himself and why Isamu and him cannot be together, Guld is finally able to be at peace.

oh god, it's almost 4 in the morning and I'm trying to type... why?!?

Edited October 21, 2010 by anime52k8

[Nicaragua]

Granted, it's be a nice theory of the animation or story supported it in any way... or at least if the animation of the OVA/movie didn't completely rule it out by showing us that the events of that flashback happened in quick succession. There's no real ambiguity there... not even the tiniest implication that there was any intention of sexual assault, let alone the actual act.

I dont disagree with your interpretation of the scene but I do disagree strongly with your idea that the scene provides a completely unmistakable, unambiguous, only one possible conclusion, clear as day, no further interpretation needed, deinition of what occurred. Its quite the opposite being non-real time and from the perspective of a confused, hurt, angry character who is only just remembering the event many years after it occurred.

oh god, it's almost 4 in the morning and I'm trying to type... why?!?

Because that was pure awesome !

[Rabidweezil]

Actually if you look through the various comments then its about 40/60 of people who seem open to the idea that it could have been rape/attempted rape .

To me personally it may or may not be rape/attempted rape and im not going to claim I know more than what the script writer intended me to know. In fact if you look at my original post then the rape/attempted rape/attack/whatever is only a fraction of my question, but yet everyone seems to want to talk about rape.

Still if your bored of the whole rape/not rape debate then how about you offer your own thoughts on the original question rather than wasting your time reading threads just to write dismissive comments at the end of them?

Actually, I did post my thoughts a page back. And I also went back and looked at everyone's responses before I posted and I don't see this 40/60 you're talking about.

And It's not that people are discussing this supposed rape. But like frothymug said, evidence is getting pretty stretched to defend it (ie. clothes moved to the side. She got dressed again afterward)

[Nicaragua]

Actually, I did post my thoughts a page back. And I also went back and looked at everyone's responses before I posted and I don't see this 40/60 you're talking about.

The 40/60 thing comes from the following people who all posted saying that they either think that Myung was raped or are open to the possibility. It baffles me that you couldnt just read everyones posts and work this out for yourself but oh well.

Agree with or are open to the idea Nicaragua, Shiroth, Jenius, Mr March, BeyondTheGrave, MisaHayase, NexxStrait

Dead against Robelwell, Dobber, Keith, Spacemaneuvers, Rabidweezil, Operator 7, FrothyMug , Drunken Pilot 72

So its actually more like 45/55. Anyone else who posted does not offer an opinion on that scene.

And It's not that people are discussing this supposed rape. But like frothymug said, evidence is getting pretty stretched to defend it (ie. clothes moved to the side. She got dressed again afterward)

This whole "stretching evidence" thing is nonsense, I have a scenario and a theory and am offering suggestions as to how something could take place. Honestly throwing in things like ah but she was wearing knickers! is ridiculous. Now my copy of Macross Plus doesnt have a gratuitous Myung flashback crotch shot in it so I dont know as assuredly as you guys seem to that she was still definatly wearing knickers at the end of the flashback, but to throw it into the mix as though clothes prevent rape is as stupid as either of the scenarios below.

Captain! Corporal Jenkins has been shot in the head!

Is he still wearing his helmet?

Yes!

Well then he has not been shot in the head

oh…ok

Officer! Ive just been raped!

Well you are clearly wearing clothes now madam so you obviously havent.

oh…ok

Edited October 21, 2010 by Nicaragua

[Rabidweezil]

The 40/60 thing comes from the following people who all posted saying that they either think that Myung was raped or are open to the possibility. It baffles me that you couldnt just read everyones posts and work this out for yourself but oh well.

Agree with or are open to the idea Nicaragua, Shiroth, Jenius, Mr March, BeyondTheGrave, MisaHayase, NexxStrait

Dead against Robelwell, Dobber, Keith, Spacemaneuvers, Rabidweezil, Operator 7, FrothyMug , Drunken Pilot 72

So its actually more like 45/55. Anyone else who posted does not offer an opinion on that scene.

This whole "stretching evidence" thing is nonsense, I have a scenario and a theory and am offering suggestions as to how something could take place. Honestly throwing in things like ah but she was wearing knickers! is ridiculous. Now my copy of Macross Plus doesnt have a gratuitous Myung flashback crotch shot in it so I dont know as assuredly as you guys seem to that she was still definatly wearing knickers at the end of the flashback, but to throw it into the mix as though clothes prevent rape is as stupid as either of the scenarios below.

Captain! Corporal Jenkins has been shot in the head!

Is he still wearing his helmet?

Yes!

Well then he has not been shot in the head

oh…ok

Officer! Ive just been raped!

Well you are clearly wearing clothes now madam so you obviously havent.

oh…ok

I went back and re-read what some of those people you said agreed with you wrote and I got a completely different interpretation from their response. But I'm not going to argue on their behalf.

And I think you're mistaking rape with the hero taking the heroine in a manly, forcible fashion. Or perhaps you're thinking about some fake porn rape. You clearly are not talking about actual real-life rape. I know women that's it's happened to. It's a horrible, brutal, violent crime. They try to fight, they scratch. They do not want it to happen. They will do anything to keep it from happening. They usually end up a bruised, bloody mess because the rapist beat them into submission in order to have his way with her.

So no, you are incorrect to think a guy can just slide the undies to the side and go to town like he's with his girlfriend at make out point.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Rabidweezil

[Mr March]

I agree with Rabidweezil. Let's be careful how we use statistics; especially how we present them lest we abuse them. I clearly believe there was no rape in Macross Plus and my original post was meant to describe the difficulty with uniform interpretation. In the end, this debate all comes down to the limitations of human communication; something means one thing to some people, but means something else to others. That is part of our existential tragedy and isn't something that's going to be solved by debating the flashbacks of an animated head-case in Macross Plus, especially when Kawamori revels in promoting just that kind of ambiguity. He loves messing with the audience, which is likely why he became a storyteller

[TehPW]

It wasn't rape ladies. It was Assault. Rape inplies unwanted sexual acts, that involve SEX. Macross + was mecha, not hentai... He beat the sh*t outta Isamu and started raging on Myune. Could it have ended as Assault & Rape? Only if that mirror wasn't there, right behind Myune...

i think we should put this question to bed, ladies. Doesn't matter in the scope of things, only will matter i get god powers and decree that Macross will be made into Live-Action, with 5 seasons, one season for each series, hour long episodes so that stories that were rushed or vague can be fleshed out (in the case of M+ and Zer0, a lot of fleshing & imbelishment)...

Edited October 21, 2010 by pensives_wetness

[frothymug]

Don't forget to acquire a mastery of the English language, including spelling and proper punctuation.

[Keith]

Check, and mate!

[TehPW]

Don't forget to acquire a mastery of the English language, including spelling and proper punctuation.

i suppose older age is my escuse (i know what i was thinking, just didnt type it out, LoL)

[frothymug]

I was just giving you a bit of a hard time... taking you down a notch or two. But otherwise, I'm in your camp on the issue.

[ff95gj]

As long as the script-writer hasn't stated explicitly, we are all talking about impression, right?

My impression upon viewing that part was: attempted rape. The flash-backs are rather broken, here is how I put it together:

Isamu was "having fun" with Myung. Guld stormed in. Guld hit Isamu and he dropped in another side of the room. Guld, in blind fury, attempt to rape Myung.

Isamu wasn't knocked out cold, sso he came to the rescue. Two men had a fight. Myung ran away.

I thought so until this morning... I read that Guld was gay. Now that explains everything!

[Nicaragua]

As long as the script-writer hasn't stated explicitly, we are all talking about impression, right?

Some of us are talking about impression but some people seem to know beyond all doubt what occurred, not open to interpretation at all - no sirree.

[Keith]

Some of us are talking about impression but some people seem to know beyond all doubt what occurred, not open to interpretation at all - no sirree.

Exactly.

[Xx-SKULL-ONE-xX]

I think the key piece of evidence we need to take into consideration here is that this is an anime. When do situations like this NOT result in rape in anime? So clearly Guld raped her.

As for OP's question, I think Roy Focker was on to something a page back. What really happened is that Guld was secretly in love with Isamu, and when he walked in on the two of them together he flew into a rage. Not at Isamu for stealing his girl though, but rather Myung for stealing his man, and Isamu for choosing a woman over him.

So he smacked Isamu and attacked Myung. It's at this point something in his mind completely snapped, and he came to the conclusion that it was his fault for being gay, and decided to from then on deny his homosexuality. From there he raped Myung and reworked the memory in his mind such that he was always after Myung and Isamu was trying to steal her away, rather than the other way around.

From then on, he lived with the delusion that he was always the heterosexual male that had his girl stolen by his best friend. It was only at the moment where he thought he had killed his friend and love interest that Guld realized he had been living a lie all this time. In that moment he embraced his Homosexuality and came to the realization that Isamu is his own man, and guld can't make Isamu change who he is no matter how much Guld wishes he could.

Having accepted both himself and why Isamu and him cannot be together, Guld is finally able to be at peace.

oh god, it's almost 4 in the morning and I'm trying to type... why?!?

Thanks for the laugh

Edited October 26, 2010 by Xx-SKULL-ONE-xX

[Nicaragua]

I will. Anyone who thinks Guld raped Myung is wrong!

Just found this image in another thread. The two ripped bra straps, unbuttoned slightly pulled apart shorts, and general dishevelled look on Myung certainly supports the rape/sexual assault interpretation.

[Gubaba]

Just found this image in another thread. The two ripped bra straps, unbuttoned slightly pulled apart shorts, and general dishevelled look on Myung certainly supports the rape/sexual assault interpretation.

You might also want to point out that that image is the cover of the NOVELIZATION, in which it is made clear that Guld does NOT rape Myung.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Gubaba

[frothymug]

owned

[Gubaba]

owned

...or not. The sequence happens differently than it does in the series. However, the novelization was written by Keiko Nobumoto, who also wrote the script for the series. So it might be proof, it might not be...but I don't think you can use a book's cover to insinuate something that the book itself denies.

[Nicaragua]

You might also want to point out that that image is the cover of the NOVELIZATION, in which it is made clear that Guld does NOT rape Myung.

Sorry, I thought it would be obvious to most of the readership here that the image was the cover of the NOVELIZATION. I would have thought the text on the image was a bit of a giveaway, still if you really think its needed...

I'd like to point out that the image i posted above is the cover of the NOVELIZATION .

Can't say i've read the book so i can't comment on what it says but if thats the case then it looks like someone forgot to tell the illustrator and then OK'd what he had drawn to be the cover - because that image suggests something nastier. I have to say that i find it strange they would use this image on the cover if the intention of the script is that it absolutely no way happened.

PS: my awesome massive text pwns your puny caps

Edited January 10, 2011 by Nicaragua

[Gubaba]

Sorry, I thought it would be obvious to most of the readership here that the image was the cover of the NOVELIZATION. I would have thought the text on the image was a bit of a giveaway, still if you really think its needed...

I'd like to point out that the image i posted above is the cover of the NOVELIZATION .

Can't say i've read the book so i can't comment on what it says but if thats the case then it looks like someone forgot to tell the illustrator and then OK'd what he had drawn to be the cover - because that image suggests something nastier. I have to say that i find it strange they would use this image on the cover if the intention of the script is that it absolutely no way happened.

PS: my awesome massive text pwns your puny caps

Dude...there's no need to get weird about it...

[TehPW]

actually Gubaba, i would have been happier with larger caps... maybe neon lighting. but really? isn't this horse amply humped enough? It never came out in public. would the UNS allow a hero's name to be sullied like that? Hell, no, the coms traffic between Isamu & Guld, during the guild squence would never see the light of day and Guld was likely double promoted to the highest warrent rank, if not Captain, and Isamu & Myune would likely never mention it either. (They never did before, because of their sympathy to his genetics)

think enough is enough. Until i get god power to smite Harmony Gold from the planet and Cameron or someone created a single TV season of M+ episodes (since im good, i just want 7 seasons of Macross, each year covering a different series in the property), *sigh* i dont wanna think about it...

[Talos]

actually Gubaba, i would have been happier with larger caps... maybe neon lighting. but really? isn't this horse amply humped enough? It never came out in public. would the UNS allow a hero's name to be sullied like that? Hell, no, the coms traffic between Isamu & Guld, during the guild squence would never see the light of day and Guld was likely double promoted to the highest warrent rank, if not Captain, and Isamu & Myune would likely never mention it either. (They never did before, because of their sympathy to his genetics)

Only problem is that Guld wasn't in the UN Spacy. He was a civilian test pilot with General Galaxy (not many UNS fighter pilots with a degree in neurology) and helped design the YF-21, at least the BDI/BCS aspects of it.

Guld Goa Bowman

Edited January 11, 2011 by Talos

[Keith]

Just found this image in another thread. The two ripped bra straps, unbuttoned slightly pulled apart shorts, and general dishevelled look on Myung certainly supports the rape/sexual assault interpretation.

Except her state of dis-dress(pun) was due to she & Isamu having already been fooling around. Besides, both Guld & Isamu look pretty damn sinister on that cover.

[PetarB]

Very interesting thread. I rewatched Macross Plus recently and realised again how I loved this story and anime best out of all the Macross series.

I agree that this sequence is massively subject to interpretation.

I believe the scriptwriters and director worked together to create something purposefully nebulous. Whether she was raped or not, it didn't matter in the story - the aftermath of an assault remains - and was real to all the protagonists. I think the writers and director created a situation so you could bring your own interpretation to the original situation, and watch what happens in the emotional aftermath to three fractured people. Brilliant stuff.

[aerocombatpilot]

Just found this image in another thread. The two ripped bra straps, unbuttoned slightly pulled apart shorts, and general dishevelled look on Myung certainly supports the rape/sexual assault interpretation.

I have a question: If myung was raped by Guld, then why did she attend to his wounds, and then sleep with him?

[Gubaba]

I have a question: If myung was raped by Guld, then why did she attend to his wounds, and then sleep with him?

...All this has happened before...

[aerocombatpilot]

...All this has happened before...

I'm sorry but I'm lost..

[Gubaba]

I'm sorry but I'm lost..

Basically, we're stuck in an endless circle. You're repeating an objection that's already been voiced in this thread multiple times. Someone else then replied to it, the arguments continue, and we arrive back at the starting point, and the argument begins again.

Same arguments, same counterpoints. Again and again and again.

Isn't it time to break the cycle?

[aerocombatpilot]

Basically, we're stuck in an endless circle. You're repeating an objection that's already been voiced in this thread multiple times. Someone else then replied to it, the arguments continue, and we arrive back at the starting point, and the argument begins again.

Same arguments, same counterpoints. Again and again and again.

Isn't it time to break the cycle?

Point taken.